Only ONE Ida left as mother of William Longespee?
Reedpcgen
Charles Evans stated that Countess Ida of Boulogne was born around 1160-65, was
countess in her own right 1173-1214, and died in 1216 (citing Erich
Brandenberg, _Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen_ (Leipzig, 1935), p. 19 (XIV,
107) and ES (2nd rev. ed., 1953-78) 2:9.
BUT (this would be the BIG but), if William Longespee were an adult by the
beginning of the reign of his brother Richard I (who was born 1157), or by
1188-91, he would be born ca. 1167-70, if not before. If this is the case, Ida
of Boulogne would be far too young to have been his mother.
We don't know the age of Ida, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, but
Roger was surely an adult when he attended the Council of Clarendon in Jan.
1163/4. He bore the standard of St. Edmund at the battle of Fornham in 1173.
So it is possible that his wife, Ida, who would be rightly known as Countess in
charters after the Dowager Countess died, was old enough to have had an
illegitimate child by Henry II. It is also possible that she had said child
before her marriage to Roger. One could wish to know if she brought lands to
the union, but holdings and records are so sketchy at this period that such an
assessment is probably impossible.
Though I have not taken the time to do so, Neil D. Thompson tells me he went
through CP for all Earldoms that existed at that period and Ida of Norfolk was
the only countess of that name in England.
Comments? Anyone? (Please?)
pcr
Todd A. Farmerie
Reedpcgen wrote:
>
> We don't know the age of Ida, wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk, but
> Roger was surely an adult when he attended the Council of Clarendon in Jan.
> 1163/4. He bore the standard of St. Edmund at the battle of Fornham in 1173.
> So it is possible that his wife, Ida, who would be rightly known as Countess in
> charters after the Dowager Countess died, was old enough to have had an
> illegitimate child by Henry II. It is also possible that she had said child
> before her marriage to Roger.
I think this is much more likely than that she had the child while
married to Roger. Were that the case, the questions of paternity would
have probably precluded Henry from recognizing the child (after all, he
could then have been Roger's). Perhaps (warning - speculation to
follow) Ida's origins have been somewhat obscure because her status as a
desirable wife came because of her being a royal mistress, rather than
any inheritance. Do we know (about) when Hugh Bigod was born? What is
the first date for Ida as wife of Bigod?
taf
D. Spencer Hines
These are apposite questions.
Here's one more.
Do we have any information, even speculation, as to the parents of the Ida,
wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk?
D. Spencer Hines
--
"Well, that's what I mean. You know, if all the people who are named
...deny it....That's all, I mean, I expect them to come looking into it and
interview you and everything, uh, but I just think that if everybody's on
record denying it you've got no problem.....I wonder if I'm going to be
blown out of the water with this. I don't see how they can...if they don't,
if they don't have pictures."
Governor Bill Clinton --- Telephonic Advice to Gennifer Flowers [1991]
Todd A. Farmerie wrote in message <34FD7C...@po.cwru.edu>...
Reedpcgen
A few more nails in the coffin (in case the corpse is still kicking):
King Stephen(acceded 1 Dec. 1135)'s son Eustace was born in 1130 or 1131. He
was buried at Bury St. Edmunds on 10 August 1153, so I expect the year of birth
came from a local chronicle (I don't have the time to check everything that
should be checked right now). Then Stephen had Matilda and William, and then
Mary, his youngest child. This would place Mary's birth date about 1136
(certainly not earlier than 1130).
Mary of Boulogne is given as marrying in 1160 (annulled in 1169), which agrees
with the chronology so far set out. She had two daughters who eventually
became the heirs of the County of Boulogne, the eldest being Ida. Charles
Evans' estimatin that she was born about 1160-65 therefore makes sense and is
difficult to argue with. Ida's 3rd husband Berthold died in 1186, so she could
not have married her fourth husband, Reynaud de Dammartin, until after that
date. Sources give this last marriage as being in 1190. So her daughter
Matilda de Dammartin would not be born until about 1191 or later. Ida could
not have been much older than 40-45.
If William Longespee were an adult in 1188 and 1191, his birth year would be no
later than 1167. One would have to ignore all evidence to even consider Ida of
Boulogne as a candidate.
So far as I am aware, the two charters mentioning Ida (of Norfolk) presented
before are the only documents attesting her existence. If she were a royal
mistress, mother of a favored bastard, and pretty, she could have married Roger
le Bigod without coming from any traceable background. There is that
prosopographical project which is exhausting all known records for England ca.
1088-1188 (is it under the direction of Keats-Rohan?). That should eventually
answer all our questions for this period, however long it takes to complete and
become available. Anyone have any information on it's progress (Tom)?
I have to correspond with Peter Hammond, editor of the volume of additions and
corrections to The Complete Peerage about two other matters in the next few
days, so I will add this item to the list and see what he says. He should be
the most knowledgeable about any new developments as to her identity. This is
by snail-mail, however, so don't get impatient and want an immediate answer.
pcr
ROBERT E. BOWMAN
How about a round of applause (and hat's off) for Paul Reed's coup d'eclat
on the Countess Ida matter
Robert E. Bowman
,.
Diana Trenchard
No-one has yet commented that the daughters of William and Ela Longespee
were Ela, Agnes, Isabel, and ..... Ida. Their son William also named one
of his daughters Ida. Coincidence?
Diana Trenchard
Todd A. Farmerie
Is there an Agnes or Isabel in Ela's family? Maybe these came from
Ida's family?
taf
Adrian Channing
>
> No-one has yet commented that the daughters of William and Ela Longespee
> were Ela, Agnes, Isabel, and ..... Ida. Their son William also named one
> of his daughters Ida. Coincidence?
>
I see that there were a couple in the Count of Boulogne family:
Ida d of Eustace I Count of Boulogne by Matilda of Louvain m Baldwin of Le
Bourg, count of Rethel.
This Ida's brother Eustace II of Boulogne m Ida dau of Godfrey Duke of
Lower Lorraine leaving Eustace III who m Mary of Scotland. Their (Eustace
and Mary's) dau Matilda m king Stephen and are the grandparents of "our"
Ida, (but now ruled out).
(mostly from Steven Runciman's Crusades)
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
Vickie Elam White
Todd Farmerie wrote --
>Diana Trenchard wrote:
>>
>> No-one has yet commented that the daughters of William and Ela
>>Longespee were Ela, Agnes, Isabel, and ..... Ida. Their son William
>>also named one of his daughters Ida. Coincidence?
>
>
>Is there an Agnes or Isabel in Ela's family? Maybe these came from
>Ida's family?
Yes, it has been mentioned that William LONGESPEE's third daughter
was named Ida. But it doesn't hurt to mention it again. <G> As for
their son William naming his daughter Ida, that could also be because
he married a woman named Idoine de CAMVILLE. Was Ida a varient of
Idoine?
William LONGESPEE's wife Ela of Salisbury was an only daughter (CP XI:
379)and her mother was named Eleanor. But Ela's name is given as "or
Isabel" so perhaps that is where the Isabel came from?
Where did you find the name Agnes? CP XI:382 mentions a daughter
Pernelle (but no Agnes) and sons named Richard, Stephen and Nicholas,
who were younger than the son William mentioned above. CP gives the
birth order of the daughters as Isabel, Ela, Ida, and Pernelle.
I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions about his parentage from the
names of his children.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
Reedpcgen
> CP gives the
>birth order of the daughters as Isabel, Ela, Ida, and Pernelle.
>
>I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions about his parentage from the
>names of his children.
But when it's about the only evidence we have to go on, it's a valid
consideration. Pernelle is also an unusual name, but then we have to take into
account who their godparents were (a fact we shall probably never know). As
Kay Allen remarked to me, Ida was a name that was borne in the Tony/Toeni
family. Roger de Toeni [III] (d. 1157-62) m. Ida, daughter of Baldwin III,
Count of Hainault by his wife, Yolande de Guelders.
It was Charles Fitch-Northen who demonstrated in his _The Trowbridge Ancestry_
(The Genealogist 9:1) that the name Godeheut was rare, and that the Godeheut
who was wife of William (III) Mohun was probably as Toeni (p. 5), daughter of
Roger de Toeni by his wife, Ida. William and Godeheut had daughters named
Yolante and Agnes. Pity William Longespee did not have a daughter named
Yolante.
For Pernell (Petronilla) it is always tempting to look at the family of Sir
Robert de Beaumont (of Leicester) who married, ca. 1155, Pernell de
Grentmesnil/Grandmesnil. Maybe we can ferret out some connections if we keep
looking around long enough and send Doug his article so he can finally get it
in print. ; )
pcr
Todd A. Farmerie
Reedpcgen wrote:
> But when it's about the only evidence we have to go on, it's a valid
> consideration. Pernelle is also an unusual name, but then we have to take into
> account who their godparents were (a fact we shall probably never know). As
> Kay Allen remarked to me, Ida was a name that was borne in the Tony/Toeni
> family. Roger de Toeni [III] (d. 1157-62) m. Ida, daughter of Baldwin III,
> Count of Hainault by his wife, Yolande de Guelders.
>
> It was Charles Fitch-Northen who demonstrated in his _The Trowbridge Ancestry_
> (The Genealogist 9:1) that the name Godeheut was rare, and that the Godeheut
> who was wife of William (III) Mohun was probably as Toeni (p. 5), daughter of
> Roger de Toeni by his wife, Ida. William and Godeheut had daughters named
> Yolante and Agnes. Pity William Longespee did not have a daughter named
> Yolante.
or Godeheut . . .
> For Pernell (Petronilla) it is always tempting to look at the family of Sir
> Robert de Beaumont (of Leicester) who married, ca. 1155, Pernell de
> Grentmesnil/Grandmesnil. Maybe we can ferret out some connections if we keep
> looking around long enough and send Doug his article so he can finally get it
> in print. ; )
So the names we have are:
William Longespee from: uncle William Longespee (bro. H II)
Ida Longespee from: grandmother Ida (Bigod)
Isabel Longespee
Pernell Longespee
Ela Longespee from: mother Ela de Salisbury
?Agnes Longespee
William Longespee from: father William Longespee
Richard Longespee from: uncle Richard I
Stephen Longespee from: There is one back of Patrick de Salisbury's
wife (I don't recall the name exactly)
but this is a bit removed.
Nicholas Longespee
Hugh Bigod from: uncle Hugh Bigod, brother of Roger
(what other Bigods in that generation?)
So does anyone know of a family using Ida, Nicholas, Pernell, Isabel,
and/or perhaps Stephen and Agnes?
taf
Diana Trenchard
Re. the family of William and Ela Longespee, Vickie Elam White wrote:
>Where did you find the name Agnes? CP XI:382 mentions a daughter
>Pernelle (but no Agnes) and sons named Richard, Stephen and Nicholas,
>who were younger than the son William mentioned above. CP gives the
>birth order of the daughters as Isabel, Ela, Ida, and Pernelle.
I have that Agnes de Longespee, daughter of William and Ela, was Abbess of
Shaftesbury Abbey in 1243. The previous Abbess had died in 1242, so this
date of 1243 is likely to be the date of her election. In 1246 the Abbey
was back in the King's hands and the next Abbess appointed in 1247,
suggesting that Agnes had died by then - or was too ill to carry on her
duties.
I don't know the 'system' of those times, but is there a possibility that
Pernelle and Agnes were the same person, Agnes being the 'religious' title
taken on entering the Abbey? (St Agnes was the patron saint of young women
or something similar.)
Incidentally, Ela herself was also an Abbess at the same time. She had
founded Lacock Abbey, Wiltshire, in 1232, became a nun there in 1238
(taking her vows on Christmas Day). Two years later she became its Abbess,
living there for the next twenty years until her death in 1261. This
caused big problems for her inheritance. For while she was still alive she
remained Countess even though living in the Abbey, and the King would not
permit her son to become Earl. Her son is said to have gone to Rome in
1247 to petition the Pope to gain the title, without success. The same
applied to her grandson, and it was only after Ela's death that the titles
came to her great-granddaughter Margaret, already married for four years to
Henry Lacy, Earl of Lincoln.
Diana Trenchard
Vickie Elam White
Diana Trenchard wrote --
>I have that Agnes de Longespee, daughter of William and Ela, was Abbess of
>Shaftesbury Abbey in 1243. The previous Abbess had died in 1242, so this
>date of 1243 is likely to be the date of her election. In 1246 the Abbey
>was back in the King's hands and the next Abbess appointed in 1247,
>suggesting that Agnes had died by then - or was too ill to carry on her
>duties.
Interesting, but could you cite your source please?
>I don't know the 'system' of those times, but is there a possibility that
>Pernelle and Agnes were the same person, Agnes being the 'religious' title
>taken on entering the Abbey? (St Agnes was the patron saint of young women
>or something similar.)
Not sure about this. CP XI:382 does say that Pernelle died unmarried,
but I don't think we can assume this was the same person as Agnes.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
Diana Trenchard
I wrote:
>>I have that Agnes de Longespee, daughter of William and Ela, was >>Abbess of
>>Shaftesbury Abbey in 1243. The previous Abbess had died in >>1242, so this
>>date of 1243 is likely to be the date of her election. >>In 1246 the Abbey
>>was back in the King's hands and the next Abbess >>appointed in 1247,
>>suggesting that Agnes had died by then - or was >>too ill to carry on her
>>duties.
Vickie Elam White wrote:
>Interesting, but could you cite your source please?
I'm sorry but this reply is probably going to be very unsatisfactory for
you. As I have mentioned several times, I accidentally lost the key to my
numbered references in many of my notes from my pre-computer days. The
above was amongst them. The best I can say is that it was probably from:
Either, one of six articles re. the history of Shaftesbury Abbey published
in _Proceedings of the Dorset Natural History and Archaeological Society_
(DNH&AS).
Or a booklet _Notes on the History of Canford_ published by the DNH&AS.
(Ela's family and subsequently the Longespees were Lords of Canford in
Dorset.)
Or from material in the archives of the Dorset County Museum, home of the
DNH&AS.
Or (most likely) obtained on a personal visit to the Museum associated with
the ruins of Shaftesbury Abbey. The ruins/Museum are only open to the
public in the summer months, and I am therefore unable to contact them for
confirmation.
While searching my files to see whether I had copies of any of the above (I
don't) I came across some more notes (sadly again unsourced) elaborating on
Agnes Longespee becoming Abbess.
'When the previous Abbess of Shaftesbury, Amicia Russell, died in 1242
there was a dispute among the nuns with regard to the election of the next
Abbess. The younger nuns chose Sister Constance Saunz Aver while the older
ones chose Sister Agnes de Ferrars. The king at once ordered Constance and
four other nuns to interview Walter Grey, Archbishop of York, providing the
expense of 'a horsed vehicle both ways'. Constance and Agnes discreetly
renounced their claim. The abbey started their election again and as a
result of a second deputation of nuns to the archbishop, Agnes de Longespee
a nun of Whorwell/Wherwell (Hampshire) was elected Abbess in October 1243.'
Since CP XI:382 says that Ela's daughter was Pernelle and not Agnes, what
is CP's source for 'Pernelle'? Other possible explanations are that
somewhere along the way it has been assumed that Agnes was William and
Ela's daughter because of the similarity of names, or even that Agnes was
an illegitimate daughter of William's.
Diana Trenchard
Vickie Elam White
Diana Trenchard wrote --
>Since CP XI:382 says that Ela's daughter was Pernelle and not Agnes,
>what is CP's source for 'Pernelle'? Other possible explanations are
>that somewhere along the way it has been assumed that Agnes was William
>and Ela's daughter because of the similarity of names, or even that
>Agnes was an illegitimate daughter of William's.
Unfortunately, CP doesn't give a source for Pernelle.
Vickie Elam White
10265...@compuserve.com
Reedpcgen
>>>I have that Agnes de Longespee, daughter of William and Ela, was Abbess of
Shaftesbury Abbey in 1243. The previous Abbess had died in >>1242, so this
date of 1243 is likely to be the date of her election. In 1246 the Abbey was
back in the King's hands and the next Abbess appointed in 1247, suggesting
that Agnes had died by then - or was too ill to carry on her duties.
>
>
yo VCH Dorset 2:79 (Hutchins missed her). No indication is given as to her
parentage, but chronology would indicate she would fit as a daughter of our
William Longespee.
A FEW MORE NOTES ON WILLIAM LONGESPEE:
Walter Lee Sheppard's article on Royal Bye-blows (NEHGR 119:94-102) does give
an account of William Longespee, but he is ignorant of Countess Ida, having
theorized that his mother was Alix de Porhoet (see _The Genealogists' Magazine_
14:361-68), which was his theory. His references to DNB are not according to
the current pagination. Sheppard did, however (pp. 100-1, n. 29), mention the
DNB reference to the grant of Appleby, co. Linc. in 1188, but he too did not
know where the reference originated. In his article in _The Genealogists'
Magazine_ , Sheppard said, "an educated guess places WIlliam's birth at about
1170." But he stated this in showing that William could not be son of Rosamund
de Clifford. The Countess Ida was never mentioned in these articles.
The DNB article on William Longespee does not give the specific reference for
the 1188 grant of Appleby, which may be in error. The account of Rosamund de
Clifford actually states, "The manor of Appleby in Lincolnshire was granted to
one William Longsword (who proves to be the brother, and not the son, of Henry
II) before 1200." I think this latter statement is correct.
William Longespee, brother of King Henry II, was not alive in 1188, so if the
grant were in that year, it would have to be to Henry's son--I think the date
of the grant is in error. It was certainly before 1200.
"Appelbi" co. Linc., was mentioned in the Pipe Rolls in 1185-6 (p. 73) and
1186-7 (p. 70). The entry in both years was: "Matildisque fuit uxor Johannis
Malherbe redd. comp. de .xlvj. s. et .viij. d. pro custodia de Appelbi cum
herede suo [/hereditate sua] de qua finivit cum rege." Appleby, Lincs. was not
mentioned in the Pipe Rolls for 1190-2.
Matilda was the daughter of Adam Fitz Swane/Swain of Yorkshire (William Farrer,
_Early Yorkshire Charters_ 3:318). She was coheir with her sister Amabel (d.
1207), who married (1) Alexander de Crevequer of Redbourne, co. Linc. (d.
1164-5), and was mother of Cecily de Crevequer (d. 1218), who married Walter de
Nevill and was mother of Alexander de Nevill of Redbourne (d. ca. 1219). This
last Alexander married Margaret and was father of Alexander de Nevill of
Redbourne, Lincs., and Mirfield, Yorkshire (of age 1236), d. 1249. Alexander
died leaving several daughters and coheirs, one of whom, Ellen de Neville, was
mother of Richard le Tyes (m. Alice de Tankersley), ancestor of Elder WILLIAM
WENTWORTH of New England. Technically, the Wentworths should have been able to
quarter the arms of Tyes, Nevill, Crevequer, 'Fitz Swain' (if you can call it
that), and Tankersley, but they were ignorant of the descent by the time
quartering to that extent came into fashion.
Back to Maud. By her second husband, John Malherbe (d. 1181) she was mother of
two daughters who would become coheirs. The eldest, Mabel, married William de
la Mare (son of Ralph, who d. ca. 1203), and was mother of Mabel de la Mare (d.
1249) who married Geoffrey de Nevill. It is conjectured that Mabel had a
sister, Olivia, who was called "de la Mare" (after the decease of her two
husbands) in early Lincoln/Yorkshire records. She married (1) Hervey d'Arecy
(Darcy) of Flixborough, Lincs., and (2) Sir John de Thornhill, and was ancestor
of WILLIAM WENTWORTH through the issue of both husbands (Olivia's daughter
Sarah de Thornhill was mother of two daughters and coheirs, Alice de
Tankersley, who married Richard le Tyes [above], and Johanna de Tankersley, who
married Sir Hugh Eland, also an ancestor of William Wentworth).
The point to be made is that Mabel de la Mare held Appleby, co. Lincs., as part
of her inheritance (she died 1253) [see CP 9:502c, notes f & h]. It was thus
in the hands of her mother in 1185-7 and stayed in the family through 1253 and
later. I take this to be evidence that the 1188 date is wrong. Any grant to
William Longespee must have been earlier than 1185, and therefore would have
been to the brother of Henry II named William Longespee (who died without
issue, his lands reverting to the crown), not Henry's illegitimate son of the
same name.
There is no mention of William Longespee, or William filius Regis, in the Pipe
Rolls 1182-1186 (Pipe Roll Society, v. 32-4, 36). The Pipe Roll for 33 Henry
II (1186-7) [v. 37] contains a reference to "Willelmus frater Camerarii" in a
list of "De scutagio militum Cornubie qui non abierunt cum Rege inexercitu
Galweie (p. 155)," but it is not clear who the Chamberlain meant is.
"Galfridus filius Regis, cancellarius" was mentioned on pp. 25 and 98. He was
called Chancellor, not Chamberlain.
Volume 38 (1187-8) of the Pipe Rolls was missing, and I don't have immediate
access to the Record Commission publication (1844) of _The great roll of the
pipe for the first year of the reign of King Richard the First, A. D
.1189-1190..._ ed. by Joseph Hunter, so I can't tell if William
Longespee/William filius Regis/William frater Regis was mentioned in either of
those years. There was no mention of him in the Pipe Roll for Mich. 1190 (v.
39/n. s., v. 1).
The FIRST mention of William Longespee I can document is in 1191, after he had
received the grant from his brother Richard I (mentioned in a previous post).
The Pipe Roll Society, new series, v. 2, contains two references to "Willelmus
frater Regis" concerning his land in Kyrketon, co. Lincs. (p. 2, Mich. 1191, p.
231, Mich. 1192). So William definitely was an adult in 1191, which is the
first year he can definitely be documented. He was therefore born in or before
1170, and may well have received a grant of an important manor from his brother
as soon as he came of age.
Anyone want to check the two volumes I didn't have access to?
pcr
J.C.B.Sharp
In case there are those who are still searching for the grant of
Appleby I think I can now answer my own question.
I have found the evidence presented in a dispute between the Abbot
of Thornhill Priory and John Malherbe over the ownership of Appleby
in The earliest Lincolnshire assize rolls, A.D.1202-1209, Lincoln
Record Society, 22, 1926, number 38 p 6 and number 570 p 100.
Quoting from the latter:
Milites ergo dicunt quod Stephanus Rex illum prioratum fundavit et
ibi canonicos posuit. post obitum vero ipsius Regis Stephani
regnante Rege Henrico patre idem Rex dedit prioratum illum fratri
suo Willelmo Lungespe qui dedit Johanni Malherbe manerium de
Appelbi quod est de honore Peverelli de Dovra et in quo honore
prioratus ille situs est.
This William was therefore not the son of Henry II. Peverel of Dover
escheated to the crown 1147-8 (Sanders p 151). As stated in an
earlier post this John Malherbe died in 1181 so the date of the
grant given in DNB is also wrong. There seems to be no reason why
it should not have been before 1164 when William Count of Poitou
died, but Willelmo Lungespee appears in the Pipe Roll for 1178-9
and so I suggest that king Henry had two brothers called William.
The 1191 grant of Kirton in Lindsey by king Richard to his brother
stands immume to question. The original writ is PRO: DL 10/45 and
the Pipe Rolls for the years 4, 5 and 6 Richard I show William the
brother of the king in possession.
I can find no Ida in the Pipe Rolls 1160-1170.
J.C.B.Sharp
London
jc...@obtfc.win-uk.net
Richard Borthwick
1164. No other legitimate brother of that name is recorded in this source.
Also ES II/2:355 only records one illegitmate (half) brother, Hamelin. None
of this counts conclusively against Henry having another brother named William.
>
Reedpcgen
[from J. C. B. Sharp's excellent post:]
>>This William was therefore not the son of Henry II. Peverel of Dover
>>escheated to the crown 1147-8 (Sanders p 151).
>...1164 when William Count of Poitou
>>died, but Willelmo Lungespee appears in the Pipe Roll for 1178-9
>>and so I suggest that king Henry had two brothers called William.
>>
[from Richard Borthwick:]
>According to ES II:82 Henry II's brother, William count of Poitou d.30 Dec
>1164.
I would think that he would be called Count in English records, rather than
just Lungespee, if it pertained to William, Count of Poitou. As J. C. B. Sharp
pointed out, William Lungespee is mentioned in English records after the Count
of Poitou died, yet before the Earl of Salisbury appears on the scene.
In a previous post, I had mentioned the manor of Acton, Suffolk, which had been
in William Longespee's hands (PRS 35:60). The lawsuit mentioning that grant
was dated Henry III, but called William Longespee 'Senior.' Round edited that
volume, and concluded (in a footnote) that it referred to Henry's brother, not
the Earl of Salisbury. I did not state Round's conclusions in that post
because by the reign of Henry III the Earl was dead and had a son named William
Longespee, so the Earl could have been called Sr. by that time. BUT Frederic
Maitland's edition of Henry de Bracton's Notebook (London, 1887), 3:92-3 (no.
1064) relates a suit between the Abbot of Missenden and Hubert de Burgh over
Cawston and Oulton, co. Norfolk. Bracton states that the King's grandfather
[Henry II] granted it to his brother, William le Longespee. After his death it
reverted to the crown. This would indicate that he died without issue. Acton
also reverted to the crown. In a footnote, Maitland, normally one of the most
trustworthy of historians, says that the William named was "natural son, not
brother," but he seems to be in error, and Round correct, as Bracton was
practically a contemporary.
So there was a William Longespee who was brother of Henry II, and one who was
his natural son. It would be interesting to track the earlier William's career
after the Count of Poitou's death, IF his mention in records after 1164
actually prove he was alive after that date (and thus a separate individual).
pcr
Reedpcgen
> I would think that he would be called Count in English records, rather than
>just Lungespee, if it pertained to William, Count of Poitou.
For instance, William Farrer, Honours and Knights' Fees 3:105-6, related that
(Holkham and Wramplingham, co. Norfolk) Pain Fitz John died in 1136, leaving
two daughters and coheirs, Agnes and Cecily. Cecily married " in 1138 Roger
son of Miles of Gloucester, earl of Hereford 1143-c. 1155. She married
secondly William of Poitou and thirdly before 1166 Walter of Mayenne. She died
in or shortly before 1207, without issue." And again, "Defendants pleaded that
the countess Cecily gave the land to Richard Giffard.... Warin denied this, and
pleaded that if Richard Giffard had entry by William de Pictavia, sometime
husband of Cecily, the gift was not good." [citing Mr. Round in Anct. Charters
(Pipe R. Soc.), 35-8, R. Lit. Claus. i. 129, Bracton's Note-Bk. n. 983, Red Bk.
196.]
CP 6:454-6, ubder Hereford, misses the second marriage to William of Poitou.
Isn't this William, Count of Poitou, who died in 1164?
pcr
Benjamin Hertzel
Hello,
> So does anyone know of a family using Ida, Nicholas, Pernell, Isabel,
> and/or perhaps Stephen and Agnes?
What about PETRONILLA, wife of STEPHEN Falkeburg (Fauconberg), sister of
AGNES, daughter of ISABEL (de Cukeney)?
Benjamin
Todd A. Farmerie
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
>
> So the names we have are:
>
> William Longespee from: uncle William Longespee (bro. H II)
> Ida Longespee from: grandmother Ida (Bigod)
> Isabel Longespee
> Pernell Longespee
> Ela Longespee from: mother Ela de Salisbury
> ?Agnes Longespee
> William Longespee from: father William Longespee
> Richard Longespee from: uncle Richard I
> Stephen Longespee from: There is one back of Patrick de Salisbury's
> wife (I don't recall the name exactly)
> but this is a bit removed.
> Nicholas Longespee
> Hugh Bigod from: uncle Hugh Bigod, brother of Roger
I can add some more names, one of which is somewhat distinctive.
Daughters of Ida:
Mary Bigod
Margaret Bigod
Grandchildren of Ida, children of Hugh Bigod:
Roger Bigod from: grandfather Roger Bigod
Hugh Bigod from: father Hugh Bigod
Isabel Bigod from: grandmother Isabel de Clare
Simon Bigod
Any Simons around?
taf