Lascelles [was Re: Maud de Campaign (de Campania):...]
The...@aol.com
Dear Annie, et al.,
I do not show a direct connection between the Lascelles family in England
and a location or holding in France; certainly safe to say there was one.
For discussion purposes, I am providing below the Lascelles line (such as
I have it) down to John fitz Ranulf, aka John de Lascelles. It also reflect
the connection to the Hiltons of Swine, part of an earlier thread. Should
anyone have any additional documentation, lineage, comment or criticism, it
would certainly be welcome.
Best regards,
John *
1 Picot de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1178[1]
of Thrintoft, Kettlethorp, Kirby Wiske and Escrick, co. York
ref. CP Vol VII, p. 444 [Lascelles][1]
Spouse: NN fitz Alan
Father: Alan fitz Roald
Children: Roger (<1163-ca1218)
1.1 Roger de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 1163[1]
Death: ca 1218[1]
of Kirby Knowle and Escrick, co. York
granted land in Kettlethorp and Escrick which had been held
of the abbey of St. Mary at York by his father, to the abbey[1]
Held of the honour of Richmond 2 1/2 knights' fees in York, 1212.
In rebellion against King John, returned to allegiance 1217[1]
Spouse: Beatrice[1]
Children: Picot (-ca1252)
Robert (-<1245)
Theobald (->1212)
1.1.1 Picot de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1252[1]
of Kirby Knowle and Escrick, co. York
1.1.2 Robert de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1245[1]
of Fulstow, co. Lincoln
released to Guisborough all his claim to land in Aylesby given
by Picot de Lascelles, before 1219[1]
Children: Avice (-<1261)
Roger (-<1253)
1.1.2.1 Avice de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1261[1]
heiress of her brother Roger de Lascelles; identified as niece
of Picot de Lascelles and great-granddaughter of Picot de
Lascelles[1]
Spouse: Thomas de Maunby
Death: bef 20 Jan 1238[1]
Children: Roger (-ca1300)
1.1.2.1.1 Roger de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1300[1]
Occ: Lord Lascelles
of Barbon, Westmoreland; Mauby and Kirby Knowle, co. York
identified as 'Roger de Magneby' in charter of 29 Mar 1253[1].
Sided with baronial party against King Henry III 1265, pardoned 1266
lord of Ellerton-on-Derwent, Kirby Knowle, Carperby, Scruton,
Thrintoft and Kirby Wiske, Yorks.[1]
Summoned to Parliament from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Rogero de Lasceles', held thereby to have become Lord Lascelles[1]
Spouse: Elizabeth[1]
Death: ca May 1323[1]
Children: Joan
Avice
Maud (-ca1344)
Theophania
1.1.2.1.1.1 Joan de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
eldest daughter and coheiress; inherited Scruton, co. Yorks
(alienated to Sir Simon Ward)[1]
Spouse: Thomas de Colwen
1.1.2.1.1.2 Avice de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
2nd daughter and coheiress
received manor of Thrintoft, co. York on her marriage;
inherited manor of Maunby
acquired the whole of the manor of Kirby Knowle by 1339[1]
Spouse: Robert le Constable[1]
1.1.2.1.1.3a Maud de Lascelles*
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1344[2]
3rd daughter and coheiress with her sisters[1]
Married secondly, Sir Robert de Tiliol[1]
exchanged her share of Kirby Knowle, co. Yorks to sister Avice for
an additional share of Ellerton-on-Derwent, co. Yorks[1]
Spouse: Sir William de Hilton
Death: ca 1291[1]
Father: Robert de Hilton (->1288)
Mother: NN de Killum
Marr: 1288[1]
Children: Sir Robert (ca1290->1320)
Other Spouses Sir Robert de Tiliol
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a Sir Robert de Hilton*
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1320[2]
Birth: ca 1290[1]
knight, of Swyne and Winestead in Holderness
mentioned in charter of 1308; received grant of lands in Swine
from Stephen de Bilton, 1319[2]
CP vol VII, p. 448 references him as son of Sir William de Hilton
and Maud de Lascelles[1]
received grant from half-brother Peter de Tiliol of
'his right to a toft and croft in Swine, which were once
belong to R. Squer, and which his mother, Matilda, held for
life......dated at Swine, 20 May 1321'[2]
Spouse: NN de Greystoke[2]
Father: Sir Ralph fitz William (-1316)
Mother: Margery de Bolebec (-<1303)
Children: Sir Robert (->1370)
Other Spouses Margaret de Thweng
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a.1 Sir Robert Hilton
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1370[2],[3]
knight, of Swine and Winestead in Holderness[2]
paid L~17 for relief of lands in co. Lincs., 1343;
made grant of 2 messuages & c. to Thomas, son of John Constable of
Halsham [grandson][2]
2nd husband of Maud de Campania[3]
Spouse: Maud de Campaign[2]
Death: aft 1368[2]
Father: NN de Campaign
Children: Robert (->1392)
William
Denise
Maud
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a.1.1 Robert Hilton
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1392[2]
Occ: lord of Swine and Catwick[2]
of Swine and Winestead in Holderness, co. York
'Esquire, knight in 1392'[2]
Spouse: Constance de Mauley[2]
Father: Sir Piers de Mauley (ca1330-<1382)
Mother: Constance de Sutton (-1401)
Children: Sir Robert (->1442)
Godfrey (->1433)
William (->1433)
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a.1.2 William Hilton
----------------------------------------
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a.1.3 Denise Hilton
----------------------------------------
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1a.1.4 Maud Hilton
----------------------------------------
Spouse: John Constable
Children: Thomas
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1b Sir Robert de Hilton* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Margaret de Thweng
Death: bef 1348[1]
Father: Marmaduke de Thweng (-<1322)
Children: Isabel (->1374)
Maud (-<1374)
Other Spouses NN de Greystoke
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1b.1 Isabel de Hilton
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 28 May 1374[1]
coheiress of her uncle Thomas de Thweng, Lord Thweng[1]
Spouse: Walter de Pedwardene[1]
1.1.2.1.1.3a.1b.2 Maud de Hilton
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 28 May 1374[1]
coheiress (in her issue) of her uncle Thomas de Thweng, Lord Thweng[1]
Spouse: John de Hotham[1]
1.1.2.1.1.3b Maud de Lascelles* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Sir Robert de Tiliol[2]
Children: Sir Peter (-ca1350)
Other Spouses Sir William de Hilton
1.1.2.1.1.3b.1 Sir Peter de Tiliol
----------------------------------------
Death: ca 1350
'granted to brother Robert [de Hilton] his right to a toft and
croft in Swine, which were once belonging to R. Squer, and which
his mother, Matilda, held for life. Dated 20 May, 1321'[2]
1.1.2.1.1.4 Theophania de Lascelles[3]
----------------------------------------
also called Tiffany;
inherited manor of Escrick and Ellerton-on-Derwent[1]
Spouse: Ralph fitz Ranulf
Death: bef 1316[3]
Father: Ralph Fitz Randolf (-~1270)
Mother: Bertrama
Children: Ralph (->1343)
1.1.2.1.1.4.1 Ralph de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1343[3]
of Spennithorne, Escrick and Ellerton-on-Derwent, co. Yorks[1]
know as Ranulf fitz Ralph, and as Ranulf de Lascelles[3]
made grant of his share of Kirby Knowle to his aunt Avice, 1334[1]
Spouse: Isabel[3]
Children: John (-<1369)
1.1.2.1.1.4.1.1 John de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1369[3]
of Escrick and Ellerton-on-Derwent, co. York
1st husband of Maud de Campania[3]
evidently the 'John Lascelles, of Lascelles Hall' identified in
Burke's as the father of Barbara Lascelles, as given herein
[the chronology is correct in this regard]
Spouse: Maud de Campaign[2]
Death: aft 1368[2]
Father: NN de Campaign
Marr: bef Oct 1343[3]
Children: Barbara
Ranulf (->1388)
1.1.2.1.1.4.1.1.1 Barbara de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Thomas Stansfield[4]
Birth: 1350[5]
Father: William Stansfield
Mother: Joan Burton
Children: John (1380-)
1.1.2.1.1.4.1.1.2 Ranulf de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1388[3]
of Spennithorne, co. York
ancestor of the FitzRandolphs of Spennithorne[3]
1.1.2.2 Roger de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1253, d.s.p.[1]
Occ: lord of Fulstow[1]
of Fulstow, co. Lincoln
1.1.3 Theobald de Lascelles
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 1212[1]
Spouse: Ada of Dunbar
Father: Patrick of Dunbar (-1232)
Mother: Ada of Scotland (-~1200)
1. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
[microprint, 1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of
England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness,"
George Poulson, Esq., Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering,
1840 (Vol I) 1841 (Vol II), pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton
of Swine.
3. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D.,
Gen Pub Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr &
David Faris).
4. "The Stanfield Family," from History of a Stanfield Family, by
Oscar C. Stanfield, Cheyenne, WY, 1961 (extracted 8/28/2000,
www.home.sprynet.com/~jrichmon/stfdfm01
5. "International Genealogical Index," IGI: published through LDS
website, www.familysearch.org, extracted on various dates.
* John P. Ravilious
Jay Cary
Keats Rohan gives two more generations of Lascelles prior to Picot d.
1178 and reports that the grandfather was a Domesday tenant of Count
Alan in Lincolnshire and Yorkshire. Probably of Breton ancestry,
possibly from Ceaux, Manche, cant. Doucy. She also gives the wife of
Picot d. 1178 as Theophania, daughter of Roald Fitz Harscoit, and a
possible descent from Duke Eudo of Brittainy as below. Jay
1 Theophania daughter of Roald.1
2 Roald Fitz Harscoit Constable of Richmond.2,3,4 d. about 1160.
3 Garsiena Musard.5,6
4 Harscoit de Sancto Jacobo The Forrester .7
6 Enisand Musard de Pleveno.5,4
7 NN daughter.6
8 Hariscot de Sancto Jacobo Viscount de Saint-Hilaire, Forrester of
Rutland.7 d. before 1130.
9 Matilda _____.8
14 Eudo Duke of Brittainy. b. in 0999. d. on January 7, 1079.
15 NN mistress.
Sources
1. K.B.S. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of People
Ocurring in English Documents 1066 - 1166, II Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum (Boydell Press, 2002). p. 535.
2. George Edward Cokayne, 1825-1911; The Complete Peerage of England,
Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the United Kingdom, extant,
extinct, or dormant; London, (1910) vol. 7, p. 444.
3. K.B.S. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of People
Ocurring in English Documents 1066 - 1166, II Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum (Boydell Press, 2002). p. 535, 249.
4. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, A Prosopography of Persons
Ocurring in English Documents 1066-1166, (1999), Vol. I p. 188.
5. K.B.S. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of People
Ocurring in English Documents 1066 - 1166, II Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum (Boydell Press, 2002). p. 249.
6. K.S.B. Keats-Rohan, Domesday People, A Prosopography of Persons
Ocurring in English Documents 1066-1166, (1999), Vol. I p. 189.
7. K.B.S. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of People
Ocurring in English Documents 1066 - 1166, II Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum (Boydell Press, 2002). p. 249, 690.
8. K.B.S. Keats-Rohan, Domesday Descendants, A Prosopography of People
Ocurring in English Documents 1066 - 1166, II Pipe Rolls to Cartae
Baronum (Boydell Press, 2002). p. 690.
The...@aol.com wrote:
>Thursday, 19 September, 2002
>
>
>Dear Annie, et al.,
>
> I do not show a direct connection between the Lascelles family in England
>and a location or holding in France; certainly safe to say there was one.
>
> For discussion purposes, I am providing below the Lascelles line (such as
>I have it) down to John fitz Ranulf, aka John de Lascelles. It also reflect
>the connection to the Hiltons of Swine, part of an earlier thread. Should
>anyone have any additional documentation, lineage, comment or criticism, it
>would certainly be welcome.
>
> Best regards,
>
> John *
>
>
>1 Picot de Lascelles
>----------------------------------------
>Death: ca 1178[1]
>
>of Thrintoft, Kettlethorp, Kirby Wiske and Escrick, co. York
>ref. CP Vol VII, p. 444 [Lascelles][1]
>
>Spouse: NN fitz Alan
>Father: Alan fitz Roald
>
>Children: Roger (<1163-ca1218)
>
>snipped..............
>
Annie Natalelli-Waloszek
I havent heard from you before, so I dont know how much you know about
things... but actually Keats-Rohan is pretty good about a lot of things on
both sides of the channel, & I doubt she actually did anything offhand...
Ive been sitting here wondering why I wrote that last post, &
for the life of me, cant explain it; it's not stuff I think, it's more my
feelings toward Taf than towards K-R, people dont have to take
their names from place-names so whether there's a Lascelle variant in
Bretagne or not has little to do with whether she may have found segments of
the line there, etc, and to boot, I was actually thinking about the
locations
of places called Gournay, not Lascelles... all in all, I'd say somebody
somewhere must've broken my codes & hijaked my brain or pulled my
puppet strings again... If I get my hands on them... get these darn strings
off, so I can dance my own tunes...
problem is, when I work seriously, everybody seems to ignore it,
so I get slaphappy & start goofing off, so then they say, "see? told you so"
or whatever... so just forget that post & pay more attention to the good
ones,
or I'll stop bothering to do them & spend all my time just goofing off &
making meaningless noise to get attention, if that's the only thing that
works ...
in which case, all you hot shot teachers arent doing a very good job & have
no reason to be surprised when kids riot or pull guns in your classrooms...
your own fault, you're not motivating them to feel rewarded by the search...
Why not?
PS please dont congratulate me for nonsense; I do enough valid work that
deserves mention, & prefer for you to take those occasions to recognise me,
rather than setting me up for poor jokes Ive already had too much of, &
others deserve...
But of course, never forget that degrees are only
sheepskin deep, & think for yourselves, if you know how...
Meanwhile, my excuses to myself, for posting offhand without thinking &
making myself feel strange...Keats-Rohan Im sure will survive as well...
Im personally not really following the Lascelles line, but proposed the
possibility of a Picardy origin, because the name occured here coincidently
& I had come up with some interesting local histories, mentioning it...
in connection with some landed gentry who might be related, although I
havent yet investigated them but it might be a useful lead
no skin off my back if nobody checks it ... It's maybe just way past my
bedtime...
Annie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay A. Cary" <Jay.A...@Dartmouth.EDU>
To: <xan...@wanadoo.fr>
Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: Lascelles [was Re: Maud de Campaign (de Campania):...]
Annie,
Ms. Keats-Rohan has lots more degrees than I do, but that doesn't mean she
knows anything about the Manche!!
Best,
Jay
--- You wrote:
well, I dont mind there not being a connection between the Lascelles &
Lachelle(s), but there is no town of that name in the Manche, nor to my
knowledge has there ever been... They seem to come to this conclusion not
only with absolutely no proof, but further, with absolutely no evidence...
in fact, with absolutely no clue or inference, nor motive... but what do I
care... after all, if a scholar has enough diplomas, they can make the sun
rise in the west ... cant they...
& everybody will applaud, wont they...? fine with me... ("très peu pour moi,
merci...")
--- end of quote ---
grdt...@gmail.com
Sorry, I should have looked at Jay Cary's post before replying.
Geoffrey Tobin
grdt...@gmail.com
Geoffrey Tobin
grdt...@gmail.com
How should one read this descent? According to a charter of 1084, Enisant Musard of Pleuven married an (illegitimate?) daughter of Count Eudo (Eozen) sometime Regent of Brittany. As to the rest, does it mean that Theophania is the daughter of Garsiena Musard and Roald, son of Hariscoit II, son of Hariscoit I and Matilda?