Charles III, emperor
Christian Feuillet
Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
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Gordon Fisher
"Eudes [= Odo] had won glory by his heroism, but Charles the Large's [= the
Fat] cowardliness was such that he was deposed by the magnates. He died
shortly afterwards, in 888, leaving the crown of France to a minor, the
posthumous son of of Louis the Stammerer, Charles, whose legitimacy was
contested by the feudal lords. They wanter to name one of their own people
king, and the choice fell fairly naturally on Eudes, who was crowned at
Compiegne."
--- Duc de Castries, of the Acadmie Francaise, *The Lives of the Kings
and Queens of France*, translated from the French by Anne Dobell, NY (Knopf)
1979, p 48.
This suggests that Charles the Fat had no legitimate issue. In a pedigree
chart on p 38, de Castries shows Charles the Fat [not translated "the Large"
here] as emperor of Germany 876, king of France 884, deposed 887, and as a
first cousin of Louis the Stammerer (who was son of Charles the Bald,
whereas Charles the Fat was son of Charles the Bald's brother, Louis the
German, king of Bavaria and Germany 840-876.
And, as a matter of fact [I hope], having looked in another book which is
perhaps even more authoritative, I find a genealogical chart showing Charles
the Fat with "no legitimate issue", and his brother Louis with "3 children,
no legitimate son reached adulthood." This is from Rosamond McKitterick,
*The Frankish Kingdoms under the Carolingians, 751-987*, NY (Longmans) 1983,
p 354-5.
Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
Christian Feuillet
>
>"Eudes [= Odo] had won glory by his heroism, but Charles the Large's [= the
>Fat] cowardliness was such that he was deposed by the magnates. He died
>shortly afterwards, in 888, leaving the crown of France to a minor, the
>posthumous son of of Louis the Stammerer, Charles, whose legitimacy was
>contested by the feudal lords. They wanter to name one of their own people
>king, and the choice fell fairly naturally on Eudes, who was crowned at
>Compiegne."
> --- Duc de Castries, of the Acadmie Francaise, *The Lives of the Kings
>and Queens of France*, translated from the French by Anne Dobell, NY (Knopf)
>1979, p 48.
>
>This suggests that Charles the Fat had no legitimate issue. In a pedigree
>chart on p 38, de Castries shows Charles the Fat [not translated "the Large"
>here] as emperor of Germany 876, king of France 884, deposed 887, and as a
>first cousin of Louis the Stammerer (who was son of Charles the Bald,
>whereas Charles the Fat was son of Charles the Bald's brother, Louis the
>German, king of Bavaria and Germany 840-876.
>
>And, as a matter of fact [I hope], having looked in another book which is
>perhaps even more authoritative, I find a genealogical chart showing Charles
>the Fat with "no legitimate issue", and his brother Louis with "3 children,
>no legitimate son reached adulthood." This is from Rosamond McKitterick,
>*The Frankish Kingdoms under the Carolingians, 751-987*, NY (Longmans) 1983,
>p 354-5.
>
>Gordon Fisher gfi...@shentel.net
>
Thank you very much for your answers.
I have several sources agreeing with yours, but:
1989 - Didier Feuer & Jean d'Hendecourt in "Dictionnaire des rois et des
reines de France" say that Richarde gave a son (Bernard) to Charles, and
that she was accused of being unfaithful. (combined from Charles's and
Richarde's entries)
1983 - Pierre Riche' in "Les Carolingiens, une famille qui fit l'Europe"
gives (in a pedigree) charles m. 1) "Richarde", m. 2) "x (?)", and having a
son (not attributed to a wife or the other) Bernard d. 891. After a
trepanation at 47, after firing his advisor, bishop Liutward, and after
separating from empress Richarde, Charles resigned in 887. He died in the
Black Forest 13 Jan 888 already forgotten. (p. 211 and pedigree IX)
Maybe Bernard was too young, and/or his legitimacy was contested.
Joseph Beagle
Gordon,
Would you please write me on "how to unsub". I have been trying for
hours and my message keeps bouncing.
Many thanks.
JoAnn
ic
On Sun, 22 Sep 1996, Christian Feuillet wrote:
> Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
> king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
>
>
snip (interesting diagram)
Charles the Fat had no legitimate issue by his wife Richarde (Rigardis
etc), but did have by a concubine an illegitimate son called Bernard
(Annals of Fulda 885). In 885 he tried to have this son recognised as his
heir but there was too much opposition even from his own bishops and the
attempt was shelved. He may have revived this project in 887. Bernard
rebelled against Arnulf of Carinthia in Alemannia in 890 and was
supported by Ulrich (Odalric etc) Ct of linzgau & Argengau along with
Bernard abt of St.Gallen. This rebellion was put down, but unrest
continued until Bernard was killed by Duke Rudolf of Rhaetia in 891 or
892 (M.Borgolte, Die Grafen Alemanniens im Merowingischer und
karolingischer zeit, 1986, p226-7, p263; T.Reuter Germany in the Early
Midlle Ages, 1992).
William Addams Reitwiesner
Christian Feuillet <BIH...@CRIS.COM> wrote:
>Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
>king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
According to Erich Brandenburg, *Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen*
(published as Band XI of the Stamm- und Ahnentafelwerk series of the
Zentralstelle fuer Deutsche Personen- und Familiengeschichte in Leipzig,
1935), number IV 18 (Table 1), Charles III had three children, a son,
Louis, and a daughter, Hildegarde, by his wife Richardis, and also a
bastard son, Hugo, by an unnamed mistress. Hildegarde, later a nun,
apparently married a count named Engildco, Hugo was killed fighting the
Normans, and Louis died at age two. Brandenburg shows no grandchildren
for Charles the Fat.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
Christian Feuillet
>
>Charles the Fat had no legitimate issue by his wife Richarde (Rigardis
>etc), but did have by a concubine an illegitimate son called Bernard
>(Annals of Fulda 885). In 885 he tried to have this son recognised as his
>heir but there was too much opposition even from his own bishops and the
>attempt was shelved. He may have revived this project in 887. Bernard
>rebelled against Arnulf of Carinthia in Alemannia in 890 and was
>supported by Ulrich (Odalric etc) Ct of linzgau & Argengau along with
>Bernard abt of St.Gallen. This rebellion was put down, but unrest
>continued until Bernard was killed by Duke Rudolf of Rhaetia in 891 or
>892 (M.Borgolte, Die Grafen Alemanniens im Merowingischer und
>karolingischer zeit, 1986, p226-7, p263; T.Reuter Germany in the Early
>Midlle Ages, 1992).
>
>
ic,
Thank you, this seems to solve the controversy: no issue versus Bernard.
I really apreciate the help.
D. Spencer Hines
William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
>
> Christian Feuillet <BIH...@CRIS.COM> wrote:
> >Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
> >king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
Brandenburg shows no grandchildren
> for Charles the Fat.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com
This is the first message that we have seen from you in Honolulu in quite some time. Did you
change some of your settings? It's good to see your posts agaain.
--
D. Spencer Hines---"Lenin's patience, never plentiful, was exhausted. "Why," he demanded,
"should we bother to reply to Kautsky? He would reply to us, and we would have to reply
to his reply. There's no end to that. It will be quite enough for us to announce that
Kautsky is a traitor to the working class, and everyone will understand everything."
"The Unknown Lenin: From the Secret Archive" **Yale University Press**(1996)Newsweek,
16 Sep 1996, p.100; [George Will]
Christian Feuillet
>Christian Feuillet <BIH...@CRIS.COM> wrote:
>>Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
>>king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
>
>(published as Band XI of the Stamm- und Ahnentafelwerk series of the
>Zentralstelle fuer Deutsche Personen- und Familiengeschichte in Leipzig,
>1935), number IV 18 (Table 1), Charles III had three children, a son,
>Louis, and a daughter, Hildegarde, by his wife Richardis, and also a
>bastard son, Hugo, by an unnamed mistress. Hildegarde, later a nun,
>apparently married a count named Engildco, Hugo was killed fighting the
Thank you for this new reference. I'm loosing Bernard here, but I guess you
cannot expect absolute certainty with events that old. I really apreciate
the time you took to research this point.
ic
On 25 Sep 1996, William Addams Reitwiesner wrote:
> Christian Feuillet <BIH...@CRIS.COM> wrote:
> >Did Charles III the Fat, king of Souabe, Holly Roman emperor and finally
> >king of France (not numbered as k. of France) have children?
>
> According to Erich Brandenburg, *Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen*
> (published as Band XI of the Stamm- und Ahnentafelwerk series of the
> Zentralstelle fuer Deutsche Personen- und Familiengeschichte in Leipzig,
> 1935), number IV 18 (Table 1), Charles III had three children, a son,
> Louis, and a daughter, Hildegarde, by his wife Richardis, and also a
> bastard son, Hugo, by an unnamed mistress. Hildegarde, later a nun,
> apparently married a count named Engildco, Hugo was killed fighting the
> Normans, and Louis died at age two. Brandenburg shows no grandchildren
> for Charles the Fat.
>
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
> wr...@erols.com
>
If your edition of Brandenburg really says this, I suspect it is a
misprint as these are the children of Charles the Fat's brother Louis (d.
Jan 20 882) and his wife Liutgarde (d.885). Check out Werner, Die
Nachkommen die Karl der Grosse, in W.Braunfels (ed), Karl der Grosse, vol
IV, and table at back. Werner corrects many of Brandenburg's mistakes.