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French and Spanish American Gateways

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nathan...@gmail.com

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Oct 20, 2015, 3:52:26 PM10/20/15
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I'm aware of Denis Beauregard's website that maintains a list of Quebec gateways: http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm

But, is anyone aware of a similar list for French/Spanish Louisiana or Latin America?

Thanks,

Nathan

taf

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Oct 20, 2015, 10:50:19 PM10/20/15
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On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:52:26 PM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
> I'm aware of Denis Beauregard's website that maintains a list of Quebec gateways: http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
>
> But, is anyone aware of a similar list for French/Spanish Louisiana or Latin America?
>

I am unaware of such a compilation. This is definitely an under-researched area, with the added challenges of poor record survival, the different native language, and the fact that most of them were coming from other places in the New World (Haiti, Acadia and New Spain) rather than from the old world, adding an extra bridge that must be crossed.

taf

joe...@gmail.com

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Oct 20, 2015, 11:04:13 PM10/20/15
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I'm not aware of any. (Other than Ponce de Leon and Hernan Cortes).

Although, I wonder what percent of Latin America is directly descended from Cortes. It has to be millions, right?

--Joe Cook

taf

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Oct 20, 2015, 11:34:23 PM10/20/15
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On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 8:04:13 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I'm not aware of any. (Other than Ponce de Leon and Hernan Cortes).

I don't think Ponce has documented royal ancestry. Indeed, we don't even know his parents. I don't know about Cortes, never having looked.


> Although, I wonder what percent of Latin America is directly descended from
> Cortes. It has to be millions, right?


Perhaps, but it is hard to say for certain, given how frequently all of the slaves owned by a conquistador would adopt his surname upon (often forced) conversion. Similar things happened in the old world, meaning one cannot assume Ponce de Leon descended from THE Ponce de Leon family of royal descent. His line could just as well be conversos who adopted the surname. (On the flip side, you can't use the Roth argument that if you can show anyone with a surname being called a converso, everyone with that surname was converso.)

taf

norenxaq via

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Oct 21, 2015, 1:30:42 AM10/21/15
to taf, gen-me...@rootsweb.com

On Oct 20, 2015, at 8:34 PM, taf via wrote:

> On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 8:04:13 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> I'm not aware of any. (Other than Ponce de Leon and Hernan Cortes).
>
> I don't think Ponce has documented royal ancestry. Indeed, we don't even know his parents. I don't know about Cortes, never having looked.
>
>

I did investigate cortes' ancestry sevaral years ago and did not find any royalty

Leo van de Pas via

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Oct 21, 2015, 1:50:37 AM10/21/15
to norenxaq, Gen-Med
I agree with norenxaq that it is unlikely to find royal ancestors for
Cortes, but he has many noble descendants (no doubt ignoble as well) such as

Philippe, King of Belgium
Henri, Grand Duke of Luxemburg
Michel I, king of Romania
Alexander, crown prince of Yugoslavia
Vittorio Emanuele of Savoie
Hans Adam II of Liechtenstein
Franz, Duke of Bavaria
Princess Michael of Kent

With best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "norenxaq via" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
To: "taf" <taf.me...@gmail.com>
Cc: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 21, 2015 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: French and Spanish American Gateways


>
> On Oct 20, 2015, at 8:34 PM, taf via wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 8:04:13 PM UTC-7, joe...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not aware of any. (Other than Ponce de Leon and Hernan Cortes).
>>
>> I don't think Ponce has documented royal ancestry. Indeed, we don't even
>> know his parents. I don't know about Cortes, never having looked.
>>
>>
>
> I did investigate cortes' ancestry sevaral years ago and did not find any
> royalty
>
>
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message

nathan...@gmail.com

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Oct 21, 2015, 11:57:19 AM10/21/15
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You would think quite a few of the colonial administrators connect to royalty.

J.L. Fernandez Blanco

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Oct 22, 2015, 8:13:21 PM10/22/15
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Hernán Cortés, Pedro Álvarez de Holguín (one of the conquistadors of Peru), Francisco Pizarro (THE conquistador of Peru), Luisa Martel de los Ríos (wife of Jerónimo Luis de Cabrera, founder of Córdoba in Argentina, her second husband; the first one had been Garcilaso de la Vega, also conquistador of Peru, and father of the famous Inca Garcilaso de la Vega), Isabel de Contreras (wife of Juan de Garay, founder of Santa Fe and Buenos Aires City in Argentina), Elvira de Contreras - her sister (wife of Ruy Díaz Melgarejo, conquistador of Paraguay), Inés de Mendoza y Carvajal - first cousin of the previous two (wife of Juan de Figueroa y Villalobos, conquistador of Chile), and very likely the brothers Pedro de Alvarado (founder of Guatemala) and Jorge de Alvarado (founder of San Salvador) were ALL descended from doña Sevilla López de Carvajal, whom Salazar y Castro in "Casa de Lara," Chapter XVII, calls "the almost universal grandmother of all nobility in Extremadura," and she had royal ancestors. I'll post ASAP her ancestry. All these families are of the utmost importance in Latin America. In Argentina, there is no third or fourth generation Argentinian who does not descend from, for example, Jerónimo Luis de Cabrera.

Best wishes.

Olivier

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Oct 23, 2015, 6:06:09 AM10/23/15
to
This one ?

Alfonso IX de Castilla, rey de León 1171-1230 &
Inés Iñiguez de Mendoza
|
Urraca Alfonso de León &
Lope Díaz "Cabeza Brava" de Haro, señor de Vizcaya ca 1192-1236
|
Lope Ruiz "el Chico" de Haro, señor de La Guardia &
Berenguela González Girón
|
Maria Lopez de Haro &
D. Rui Gil, señor de Villalobos +1289
|
Lope Rodriguez de Villalobos &
Berenguela de Castañeda
|
Rodrigo Perez de Villalobos &
Ne Manrique
|
Lope Rodriguez de Villalobos &
Inès Garcia de Toledo
|
Garci Lopez de Villalobos &
Ne N
|
Sevilla López de Villalobos &
Diego González de Carvajal
|
Mencía González de Carvajal &
Alvar García Bejarano, señor de Orellana
|
Sevilla López de Carvajal

condyfee

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Oct 23, 2015, 11:55:08 AM10/23/15
to
On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:52:26 PM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
if this the case all most of the new england royal lines have common lines to them

J.L. Fernandez Blanco

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Oct 24, 2015, 4:02:16 PM10/24/15
to
Yes, that is correct.

condyfee

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Oct 24, 2015, 4:18:49 PM10/24/15
to
NICE I HAVE SOME OF THIS

taf

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Oct 24, 2015, 7:01:27 PM10/24/15
to
Which part? I ask because while this line may be valid (I don't personally know one way or the other, but I accept the earlier affirmation) many lines that claim Haro ancestry are problematic.

taf

condyfee

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Oct 25, 2015, 2:14:23 PM10/25/15
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/Thomas WEST b: ABT 1250 d: UNKNOWN
/Thomas II WEST b: ABT 1280 d: UNKNOWN
/Thomas III WEST b: ABT 1320 d: 03 SEP 1386
| | /John de CANTELOU b: ABT 1210 d: AFT 1266 =>
| | /John de CANTELOU b: ABT 1250 d: 1333
| | | \Margery COMYN b: ABT 1220 d: AFT 1279 =>
| \Eleanor de CANTELOU b: ABT 1290 d: UNKNOWN
| | /John de MOHUN b: ABT 1220 d: ABT 1254 =>
| \Maud ? de MOHUN b: ABT 1260 d: UNKNOWN
| \Joan de FERRERS b: ABT 1226 d: BEF JUN 1269 =>
/Thomas WEST b: ABT 1365 d: 19 APR 1405
| | /Reginald FITZREGINALD b: ABT 1270 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | /Herbert FITZREGINALD b: ABT 1290 d: UNKNOWN
| | | \Joan MARTEL b: ABT 1266 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | /Reginald FITZHERBERT b: ABT 1313 d: 12 SEP 1346
| | | | /Andrew PEVERELL b: ABT 1260 d: UNKNOWN
| | | \Lucy PEVERELL b: ABT 1290 d: UNKNOWN
| \Alice FITZHERBERT b: ABT 1340 d: UNKNOWN
| | /Edmund HARLUYT b: ABT 1280 d: UNKNOWN
| \Joan HARLUYT b: ABT 1312 d: UNKNOWN
/Reginald WEST b: 07 SEP 1395 d: 27 AUG 1451
| | /Roger de la WARRE b: ABT 1245 d: 20 JUN 1320 =>
| | /John de la WARRE 2nd Lord La Warre b: ABT 1283 d: 09 MAY 1347
| | | \Clarice de TREGOZ b: ABT 1265 d: BEF 28 AUG 1300 =>
| | /John de la WARRE b: ABT 1300 d: BEF 24 JUN 1331
| | | | /Robert de GRELLE b: ABT 1252 d: 15 FEB 1282 =>
| | | \Joan de GRELLE b: ABT 1278 d: 21 MAR 1353
| | | \Hawise de BURGH b: ABT 1258 d: AFT 1282 =>
| | /Roger de la WARRE b: 30 NOV 1326 d: 27 AUG 1370
| | | | /Robert de HOLAND II b: ABT 1253 d: AFT 1328 =>
| | | | /Robert de HOLAND III 1st Lord of Holland b: ABT 1283 d: 07 OCT 1328
| | | | | \Elizabeth de SAMLESBURY b: ABT 1252 d: AFT 1311 =>
| | | \Margaret de HOLAND b: ABT 1310 d: 22 AUG 1349
| | | | /Alan la ZOUCHE b: 09 OCT 1267 d: BEF 25 MAR 1314 =>
| | | \Maud la ZOUCHE b: ABT 1290 d: 31 MAY 1349
| | | \Eleanor de SEGRAVE b: ABT 1267 d: 1314 =>
| \Joan de la WARRE b: 1367 d: 24 APR 1404
| | /Roger de MOWBRAY 1st Baron Mowbray b: ABT 1245 d: ABT 1296 =>
| | /John de MOWBRAY 2nd Baron Mowbray b: 04 SEP 1286 d: 1321
| | | \Rohese de CLARE b: 17 OCT 1252 d: AFT 1316 =>
| | /John de MOWBRAY b: 29 NOV 1310 d: 04 OCT 1361
| | | | /William de BRAOSE 2nd Baron Braose b: ABT 1258 d: BEF 01 MAY 1326 =>
| | | \Aline de BRAOSE b: ABT 1290 d: 1331
| | | \ AGNES b: ABT 1258 d: UNKNOWN
| \Eleanor de MOWBRAY b: ABT 1345 d: BEF 10 JUN 1387
| | /Edmond PLANTAGENET b: 16 JAN 1244 d: 05 JUN 1296 =>
| | /Henry PLANTAGENET b: 1281 d: 22 SEP 1345
| | | \Blanche d'ARTOIS b: ABT 1255 d: 02 MAY 1302 =>
| \Joan PLANTAGENET b: ABT 1311 d: 07 JUL 1349
| | /Patrick de CHAWORTH V Lord of Kidwelly b: ABT 1258 d: BEF 07 APR 1283 =>
| \Maud de CHAWORTH b: ABT 1282 d: BEF 03 DEC 1322
| \Isabel de BEAUCHAMP b: ABT 1260 d: BEF 30 MAY 1306 =>
Mary WEST b: BEF 1433 d: 29 JUL 1473
| /Robert THORLEY b: ABT 1368 d: ABT 1430
\Margaret THORLEY b: 1396 d: BEF 24 NOV 1433
| /Owen ap GRUFFYDD Lord de la Pole b: ABT 1256 d: 1293 =>
| /William de la POLE Merchant b: ABT 1280 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Johanna CORBET b: ABT 1260 d: UNKNOWN =>
| /William de La POLE Baron of the Exchequer b: ABT 1310 d: 1366
| | \ ELENA b: ABT 1285 d: UNKNOWN
| /Michael de La POLE 1st Earl of Suffolk b: ABT 1335 d: 05 SEP 1389
| | | /Henry de NORWICH b: ABT 1245 d: AFT 1285
| | | /Walter de NORWICH b: ABT 1270 d: BEF 20 FEB 1329
| | | | \ KATHERINE b: ABT 1248 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Catherine de NORWICH b: ABT 1312 d: 1381
| | | /John de HEDERSET b: ABT 1245 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Catherine de HEDERSET b: ABT 1275 d: BEF OCT 1343
\Anne de la POLE b: ABT 1365 d: 30 MAR 1412
| /John de WINGFIELD b: ABT 1278 d: UNKNOWN =>
| /John de WINGFIELD b: ABT 1305 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Anne PECHE b: ABT 1285 d: UNKNOWN =>
| /John WINGFIELD b: ABT 1324 d: BEF 18 OCT 1361
| | | /John HONEYPOT b: ABT 1270 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | \Elizabeth HONEYPOT b: ABT 1305 d: UNKNOWN
| | \ JULIANA b: ABT 1275 d: UNKNOWN
\Katherine WINGFIELD b: ABT 1345 d: BEF 01 OCT 1386
| /Richard de BRAOSE b: ABT 1275 d: AFT 25 JUL 1318 =>
| /Richard de BREWSE b: ABT 1300 d: AFT 1357
| | \Alianore de SHELTON b: ABT 1280 d: UNKNOWN =>
\Alianor de BREWSE b: ABT 1324 d: BEF 18 OCT 1361
\ KATHERINE b: ABT 1300 d: AFT 1376

condyfee

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Oct 25, 2015, 2:17:20 PM10/25/15
to
On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:52:26 PM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
/PHILIP I King of France b: BEF 23 MAY 1053 d: 29 JUL 1108 =>
/LOUIS TheVI Fat King of France Crusader b: 1081 d: 01 AUG 1137
| \BERTHA of Holland b: ABT 1057 d: 1094 =>
/LOUIS b: ABT 1120 d: 18 SEP 1180
| | /HUMBERT II Count of Savoy b: ABT 1070 d: 14 OCT 1103 =>
| \Adelaide de SAVOY b: ABT 1092 d: 18 NOV 1154
| \Gisele de BURGUNDY b: ABT 1072 d: AFT 1133 =>
/PHILLIP AUGUSTUS b: 22 AUG 1165 d: 14 JUL 1223
| | /STEPHEN II of Blois Count of Champagne b: ABT 1047 d: 18 MAY 1102 =>
| | /Count IV of Blois Theobald de BLOIS IV b: ABT 1090 d: JAN 1152
| | | \ADELA of Normandy b: ABT 1063 d: 08 MAR 1137 =>
| \ALIX of Champagne b: ABT 1135 d: 04 JUN 1209
| | /Engelbert von SPONDHEIM II b: ABT 1070 d: 1141 =>
| \Maud de CARINTHIA b: ABT 1105 d: 13 DEC 1161
| \Uta von PASSAU b: ABT 1080 d: UNKNOWN =>
/LOUIS b: 05 SEP 1187 d: 08 NOV 1226
| | /Baldwin de HAINAULT b: ABT 1085 d: 1120 =>
| | /Baldwin de HAINAULT IV b: ABT 1110 d: 08 NOV 1171
| | | \Yolande de GUELDERS b: ABT 1090 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | /Baldwin de HAINAULT Count of Flanders V b: ABT 1142 d: 13 DEC 1195
| | | | /Godfrey de NAMUR Count of Namur b: 1067 d: 19 AUG 1139 =>
| | | \Alice de NAMUR b: ABT 1120 d: 1195
| | | \Ermesinde deLongwy de LUXEMBOURG b: ABT 1085 d: 24 JUN 1143 =>
| \ISABELLA of Hainaut b: APR 1170 d: 15 MAR 1190
| | /THIERRY Duke of Lorraine II b: 1053 d: 23 JAN 1115 =>
| | /THIERRY of Lorraine Count of Flanders b: ABT 1101 d: 17 JAN 1168
| | | \Gertrude de FLANDERS b: ABT 1070 d: 1117 =>
| \Margaret de LORRAINE Countess of Flanders b: ABT 1145 d: 12 NOV 1194
| | /FULK b: ABT 1092 d: 13 NOV 1143 =>
| \Sybil d'ANJOU b: ABT 1112 d: 1165
| \Ermengarde de MAINE b: ABT 1095 d: 1126 =>
/ROBERT Count of Artois b: 1216 d: 1250
| | /RAYMOND of Bourgogne Count of Castile b: ABT 1070 d: 26 MAR 1107 =>
| | /ALFONSO VII King of Castile and Leon b: 01 MAR 1105 d: 21 AUG 1157
| | | \URRACA Queen of Castile and Leon b: ABT 1082 d: 08 MAR 1126 =>
| | /SANCHO III King of Castile b: 1134 d: 31 AUG 1158
| | | | /Raymond BERENGER III Marquis of Barcelona b: 11 NOV 1080 d: 19 AUG 1131 =>
| | | \BERENGUELA of Barcelona b: ABT 1112 d: 03 FEB 1149
| | | \Dolce de GEVAUDAN b: ABT 1090 d: BET 1127 AND 1130 =>
| | /ALFONSO VIII The Good King of Castile b: 11 NOV 1155 d: 05 OCT 1214
| | | | /RAMIRO Lord of Urroz II b: ABT 1080 d: 1116 =>
| | | | /GARCIA IV King of Navarre b: ABT 1110 d: 21 NOV 1150
| | | | | \Christina "Elvira" Rodrigues de VIVAR b: ABT 1092 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | | \BLANCHE of Navarre b: ABT 1135 d: 12 AUG 1156
| | | | /Gilbert l'AIGLE b: ABT 1075 d: 1118 =>
| | | \Margaret l'AIGLE b: ABT 1115 d: 25 MAY 1141
| | | \Julienne du PERCHE b: ABT 1080 d: UNKNOWN =>
| \BLANCHE of Castile b: 04 MAR 1188 d: 27 NOV 1252
| | /FULK b: ABT 1092 d: 13 NOV 1143 =>
| | /Geoffrey PLANTAGENET b: 24 NOV 1113 d: 07 SEP 1151
| | | \Ermengarde de MAINE b: ABT 1095 d: 1126 =>
| | /Henry FITZEMPRESS b: 05 MAR 1133 d: 06 JUL 1189
| | | | /Henry BEAUCLERC King of England I b: SEP 1068 d: 01 DEC 1135 =>
| | | \Matilda BEAUCLERC b: BEF 05 AUG 1102 d: 10 SEP 1167
| | | \MATILDA Princess of Scotland b: ABT 1082 d: 01 MAY 1118 =>
| \Eleanor PLANTAGENET b: 13 OCT 1162 d: 25 OCT 1214
| | /William IX "le Troubadour" de AQUITAINE b: 22 OCT 1071 d: 10 FEB 1127 =>
| | /WILLIAM b: ABT 1099 d: 09 APR 1137
| | | \Maud-Philippa de TOULOUSE b: 1073 d: 28 NOV 1117 =>
| \Eleanor de AQUITAINE b: ABT 1124 d: 31 MAR 1204
| | /Aimery de CHASTELLERAULT b: ABT 1078 d: 07 NOV 1151 =>
| \Alianor de CHASTELLERAULT b: ABT 1109 d: AFT MAR 1130
| \Dangereuse de L'ISLE-BOUCHARD b: 1085 d: UNKNOWN =>
Blanche d'ARTOIS b: ABT 1255 d: 02 MAY 1302
| /Godfrey de BRABANT I the Bearded b: ABT 1060 d: 25 JAN 1140 =>
| /Godfrey de LOVAINE II b: 1100 d: 1142
| | \Ida de CHINY b: 1083 d: ABT 1120 =>
| /Godfrey de BRABANT III b: 1142 d: 10 AUG 1190
| | | /BERENGER II Count of Sulzbach b: 1080 d: 1125 =>
| | \Luitgarde von SULZBACH b: 1118 d: 1162
| | \Adelaide von WOLFRATSHAUSEN b: 1084 d: 1126 =>
| /Henry de BRABANT I Duke of Brabant and Lorraine b: 1165 d: 05 SEP 1235
| | | /Waleran von LIMBURG III Count of Limbourg b: ABT 1085 d: 06 AUG 1139 =>
| | | /Henry von LIMBOURG II 2nd ct. Arlon b: 1116 d: AUG 1167
| | | | \Judith de WASSENBURG b: ABT 1093 d: 26 JUN 1151 =>
| | \Margaret von LIMBOURG b: 1140 d: 1173
| | | /Adolf von SAFFENBERG II b: ABT 1090 d: ABT 1142 =>
| | \Matilda von SAFFENBERG b: 1122 d: 02 JAN 1145
| | \Marguerite von SCHWARZENBERG b: ABT 1104 d: AFT 1134 =>
| /HENRY Duke of Brabant II b: ABT 1200 d: 01 FEB 1248
| | | /THIERRY Duke of Lorraine II b: 1053 d: 23 JAN 1115 =>
| | | /THIERRY of Lorraine Count of Flanders b: ABT 1101 d: 17 JAN 1168
| | | | \Gertrude de FLANDERS b: ABT 1070 d: 1117 =>
| | | /Matthew de BOLOGNE Count of Bologne b: ABT 1139 d: 25 JUL 1173
| | | | | /FULK b: ABT 1092 d: 13 NOV 1143 =>
| | | | \Sybil d'ANJOU b: ABT 1112 d: 1165
| | | | \Ermengarde de MAINE b: ABT 1095 d: 1126 =>
| | \Maud de BOULOGNE b: ABT 1162 d: 1211
| | | /STEPHEN II of Blois Count of Champagne b: ABT 1047 d: 18 MAY 1102 =>
| | | /STEPHEN of Blois King of England b: ABT 1096 d: 25 OCT 1154
| | | | \ADELA of Normandy b: ABT 1063 d: 08 MAR 1137 =>
| | \Mary de ENGLAND b: ABT 1136 d: 25 JUL 1183
| | | /Eustace de BOULOGNE III Count of Boulogne b: ABT 1055 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | \Maud de BOULOGNE Countess of Boulogne b: ABT 1102 d: 1152
| | \MARY Princess of Scotland b: ABT 1084 d: 31 MAY 1116 =>
\MATILDA of Brabant b: ABT 1220 d: 29 SEP 1288
| /FREDERICK Duke of Alsace and Swabia I b: 1050 d: 1105 =>
| /Frederick von HOHENSTAUFFEN II Duke of Swabia b: 1090 d: 06 APR 1147
| | \AGNES of Franconia b: ABT 1072 d: 24 SEP 1143 =>
| /Frederick BARBAROSSA Holy Roman Emperor I b: ABT 1122 d: 10 JUN 1190
| | | /HENRY Duke of Bavaria "The Black" I b: ABT 1074 d: 13 DEC 1126 =>
| | \Judith von BAYERN b: AFT 1100 d: 22 FEB 1130
| | \WULFHILDA of Saxony b: 1075 d: 29 DEC 1126 =>
| /PHILIP II Emperor of Germany b: BEF APR 1177 d: 21 JUN 1208
| | | /STEPHEN I Tete-Hardi Cte de Macon b: ABT 1057 d: 27 MAY 1102 =>
| | | /RAINALD Count of Bourgogne & Macon II b: ABT 1100 d: ABT 1149
| | | | \Beatrix de LORRAINE b: ABT 1065 d: AFT 1102 =>
| | \Beatrice de BOURGOGNE b: 1145 d: 15 NOV 1184
| | | /SIMON Duke of Lorraine I b: ABT 1080 d: 14 JAN 1138 =>
| | \Agathe de LORRAINE b: ABT 1115 d: 1148
| | \Adelaide de LOUVAIN b: ABT 1093 d: 1158 =>
\Maria von HOHENSTAUFEN b: BEF MAY 1196 d: ABT 1235
| /Constantinus ANGELUS b: 1090 d: AFT 1166 =>
| /Andronicus ANGELUS b: 1125 d: 1185
| | \Theodora COMNENA b: 1096 d: UNKNOWN =>
| /Issac ANGELUS Eastern Roman Emperor II b: 1155 d: JAN 1204
| | | /Theodoros CASTAMONITA b: ABT 1099 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Euphrosyne CASTAMONITA b: 1130 d: UNKNOWN
\Irene ANGELICA b: ABT 1181 d: 27 AUG 1208
| /Isaac COMNENUS b: AFT 16 JAN 1093 d: AFT 1152 =>
| /Andronicus COMNENUS Emperor of Byzantium I b: ABT 1123 d: 1185
| | \ KATA b: ABT 1095 d: UNKNOWN =>
\Irena COMNENA b: ABT 1166 d: AFT 1185
| /Raymond d'AQUITAINE Prince of Antioch b: ABT 1097 d: 28 JUN 1149 =>
\Philippa de ANTIOCH b: ABT 1145 d: UNKNOWN
\Constance de HAUTEVILLE princess of Antioch b: ABT 1127 d: 1163 =>

Display pedigree in table format

/OTTO-WILLIAM King of Lombardy b: ABT 959 d: BEF 21 SEP 1026 =>
/RENAUD Count of Bourgogne I b: ABT 990 d: 04 SEP 1057
| \Ermentrude de ROUCY b: ABT 952 d: ABT 05 MAR 1003 =>
/WILLIAM I The Great Count of Bourgogne b: ABT 1024 d: 12 NOV 1087
| | /RICHARD II The Good Duke of Normandy b: ABT 958 d: 28 AUG 1026 =>
| \ADELAIDE of Normandy b: ABT 1002 d: 01 JUL 1037
| \JUDITH of Britanny b: ABT 982 d: 1017 =>
/RAYMOND of Bourgogne Count of Castile b: ABT 1070 d: 26 MAR 1107
| | /Roger de FOIX Count Bigorre Bernard b: ABT 971 d: 1038 =>
| | /Bernard de BIGORRE II b: ABT 1000 d: ABT 1077
| | | \GERSENDE of Bigorre b: ABT 980 d: AFT 1038 =>
| \Stephanie de BIGORRE b: ABT 1040 d: 10 OCT 1092
| | /Robert de AUVERGNE III Count of Auvergne b: ABT 972 d: 1032 =>
| \Clemence d'AUVERGNE b: ABT 1005 d: UNKNOWN
| \Ermengarde de GEVAUDAN b: ABT 972 d: 994 =>
/ALFONSO VII King of Castile and Leon b: 01 MAR 1105 d: 21 AUG 1157
| | /SANCHO King III of Navarre Emperor of Spain b: 992 d: 18 OCT 1035 =>
| | /FERDINAND The Great King of Castile & Leon I b: ABT 1017 d: 27 DEC 1065
| | | \Munia SANCHEZ b: 995 d: AFT 13 JUL 1066 =>
| | /ALFONSO King of Castile and Leon VI b: 1039 d: 01 JUL 1109
| | | | /ALFONSO King of Leon & Castile V b: 994 d: 13 DEC 1028 =>
| | | \SANCHA heiress of Leon b: 1013 d: 07 NOV 1067
| | | \Elvira MENENDEZ b: ABT 996 d: 02 DEC 1022 =>
| \URRACA Queen of Castile and Leon b: ABT 1082 d: 08 MAR 1126
| | /ROBERT b: ABT 973 d: 20 JUL 1031 =>
| | /Robert I CAPET b: ABT 1011 d: 21 MAR 1076
| | | \Constance de PROVENCE b: ABT 986 d: 25 JUL 1032 =>
| \CONSTANCE of Bourgogne b: ABT 1046 d: AFT 02 SEP 1093
| | /DALMAS Seigneur de Semur-in-Brionnes* I b: ABT 1002 d: AFT 1048 =>
| \Helie de SEMUR b: ABT 1023 d: 22 APR 1055
| \Aremburge de BURGUNDY b: ABT 1002 d: UNKNOWN =>
/SANCHO III King of Castile b: 1134 d: 31 AUG 1158
| | /BERENGER RAMON Marquis of Barcelona I b: 1005 d: 26 MAY 1035 =>
| | /RAYMOND BERENGER Count of Barcelona I b: 1023 d: 26 MAY 1076
| | | \Sancha SANCHEZ b: ABT 1005 d: 26 JUN 1026 =>
| | /RAYMOND BERENGER Count of Barcelona II b: ABT 1055 d: 05 DEC 1082
| | | | /Bernard de La MARCHE 1st Count b: ABT 986 d: 1047 =>
| | | \Almodis de la HAUTE MARCHE b: ABT 1015 d: 17 NOV 1071
| | | \Amelia d' AULNAY b: ABT 990 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | /Raymond BERENGER III Marquis of Barcelona b: 11 NOV 1080 d: 19 AUG 1131
| | | | /TANCRED Seigneur of Hauteville b: ABT 985 d: UNKNOWN
| | | | /Robert Guiscard de HAUTEVILLE Duke of Apulia b: ABT 1016 d: 17 JUL 1085
| | | | | \ FRESENDE b: ABT 1000 d: UNKNOWN
| | | \Maud de HAUTEVILLE b: ABT 1061 d: ABT 19 SEP 1112
| | | | /Guaimar de SALERNO IV Prince of Salerno Capua b: 1010 d: 03 JUN 1052 =>
| | | \Sichelgaita de SALERNO b: ABT 1040 d: 27 JUL 1090
| | | \Gemma di CAPUA b: ABT 1010 d: UNKNOWN =>
| \BERENGUELA of Barcelona b: ABT 1112 d: 03 FEB 1149
| | /Richard de RODEZ II Count of Milhaud b: ABT 1010 d: BET 1049 AND 1051 =>
| | /Berenger de RODEZ b: ABT 1040 d: AFT 12 APR 1080
| | | \Richilde de NARBONNE b: ABT 1020 d: ABT 1080 =>
| | /Gilbert de CARLAT Count b: 1060 d: BET 1110 AND 1113
| | | | /Gilbert de CARLAT II Count b: ABT 1000 d: BEF 1071 =>
| | | \Adele de CARLAT b: ABT 1040 d: BEF 1071
| | | \ NOBILLA b: ABT 1010 d: UNKNOWN =>
| \Dolce de GEVAUDAN b: ABT 1090 d: BET 1127 AND 1130
| | /Geoffrey de ARLES I Count of Arles b: ABT 1020 d: 1063 =>
| | /Bertrand de ARLES II b: ABT 1050 d: 1093
| | | \Stephanie de MARSEILLE b: ABT 1025 d: AFT SEP 1095 =>
| \Gerberge de PROVENCE b: ABT 1072 d: ABT 1113
| \ MATHILDE b: ABT 1050 d: UNKNOWN
ALFONSO VIII The Good King of Castile b: 11 NOV 1155 d: 05 OCT 1214
| /SANCHO King III of Navarre Emperor of Spain b: 992 d: 18 OCT 1035 =>
| /GARCIA III of Navarre b: AFT 1012 d: ABT 1054
| | \Munia SANCHEZ b: 995 d: AFT 13 JUL 1066 =>
| /SANCHO V King of Navarre b: ABT 1038 d: 1083
| | | /Ramon BORREL III Count of Barcelona & Gerona b: ABT 972 d: 25 FEB 1018 =>
| | \Estefania de BARCELONA b: ABT 1008 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Ermesinde de FOIX b: ABT 975 d: 01 MAR 1057 =>
| /RAMIRO Lord of Urroz II b: ABT 1080 d: 1116
| | | /SANCHO Senor de Maranon
| | \ COSTANZA b: ABT 1055 d: UNKNOWN
| /GARCIA IV King of Navarre b: ABT 1110 d: 21 NOV 1150
| | | /Flain NUNEZ b: ABT 995 d: AFT 1043 =>
| | | /Diego Flainez de VIVAR b: ABT 1020 d: 1058
| | | /El Cid Rodrigo Diaz de VIVAR b: ABT 1043 d: 10 JUL 1099
| | | | | /Rodrigo ALVAREZ b: 1000 d: 1066 =>
| | | | \Unknown RODRIGUEZ b: ABT 1025 d: UNKNOWN
| | | | \Teresa FLAINEZ b: ABT 1002 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | \Christina "Elvira" Rodrigues de VIVAR b: ABT 1092 d: UNKNOWN
| | | /Fernando GUNDEMARIZ b: ABT 1020 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | | /Ct. de Oviedo Diego FERNANDEZ b: ABT 1045 d: UNKNOWN
| | | | \Muniadona ORDONEZ b: ABT 1025 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | \Jimena DIAZ b: ABT 1070 d: UNKNOWN
| | | /Alfonso ORDONEZ b: ABT 1010 d: 1057 =>
| | \Christina ALFONSO b: ABT 1050 d: UNKNOWN
\BLANCHE of Navarre b: ABT 1135 d: 12 AUG 1156
| /Fulbert de BEINA b: ABT 990 d: UNKNOWN
| /Engenulph l'AIGLE b: ABT 1015 d: 14 OCT 1066
| /Richard l'AIGLE b: ABT 1050 d: 18 NOV 1084
| | \ RICHVARIDE b: ABT 1020 d: UNKNOWN
| /Gilbert l'AIGLE b: ABT 1075 d: 1118
| | | /Thurstan le GOZ Vicomte d'Avranches b: ABT 995 d: AFT 1035 =>
| | | /Richard le GOZ Count of Avranches b: ABT 1010 d: AFT 1082
| | | | \Judith de MONTAROLIER b: ABT 990 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Judith d'AVRANCHES b: ABT 1052 d: UNKNOWN
| | | /Herluin de CONTEVILLE Viscount Conteville b: ABT 1000 d: 1066 =>
| | \Emma de CONTEVILLE b: ABT 1025 d: UNKNOWN
| | \Harlette de FALAISE b: ABT 1007 d: ABT 1050 =>
\Margaret l'AIGLE b: ABT 1115 d: 25 MAY 1141
| /GEOFFREY II Vicomte de Chateaudun b: ABT 965 d: BEF 1005 =>
| /Rotrou de CHATEAUDUN I b: ABT 1000 d: 1049
| | \ HELVISE b: ABT 975 d: UNKNOWN =>
| /Geoffrey du PERCHE Count de Perche & Mortagne b: ABT 1045 d: 1100
| | | /Warin de BELLEME of Domfront b: ABT 1005 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | \Adela de DOMFRONT b: ABT 1030 d: UNKNOWN
\Julienne du PERCHE b: ABT 1080 d: UNKNOWN
| /Hildouin de MONTDIDIER III b: ABT 985 d: 1063 =>
| /Hidouin de MONTDIDDIER b: ABT 1010 d: 1063
\Beatrix de MONTDIDDIER b: ABT 1055 d: UNKNOWN
| /EBLES Archbishop of Rheims I b: ABT 988 d: 11 MAY 1033 =>
\Alice de ROUCY b: ABT 1020 d: 1062
\Beatrix de HAINAUT b: ABT 997 d: UNKNOWN =>

condyfee

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Oct 25, 2015, 2:19:10 PM10/25/15
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On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:52:26 PM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
/Thomas de STOUGHTON Lord of Unstead b: ABT 1440 d: ABT 1479 =>
/Gilbert STOUGHTON 5th Lord of Stoughton b: ABT 1467 d: 1516
| \Marion BARDSEY b: ABT 1450 d: UNKNOWN =>
/Lawrence STOUGHTON b: ABT 1490 d: APR 1572
| | /Edward BANBESEY b: ABT 1435 d: UNKNOWN
| \Mary BANBESEY b: 1468 d: UNKNOWN
/Thomas STOUGHTON b: 25 MAR 1521 d: 1577
| | /Thomas COMBE b: ABT 1450 d: UNKNOWN
| | /Thomas COMBE b: ABT 1475 d: ABT 1559
| \Ann COMBE b: 1498 d: UNKNOWN
/Lawrence STOUGHTON b: 12 NOV 1554 d: 13 DEC 1615
| | /Roger LEWKNOR b: ABT 1421 d: 23 JUL 1478 =>
| | /Roger LEWKNOR The Younger b: ABT 1469 d: BET 06 NOV 1509 AND 23 FEB 1510
| | | \Mary WEST b: BEF 1433 d: 29 JUL 1473 =>
| | /Edmund LEWKNOR b: 16 NOV 1496 d: 11 MAR 1544
| | | \ ANNE b: ABT 1472 d: 28 NOV 1502
| \Elizabeth LEWKNOR b: 02 MAR 1533 d: BEF 1577
| | /William TYRRELL b: ABT 1419 d: BET 1470 AND 1471 =>
| | /Jasper TYRRELL b: ABT 1463 d: AFT 1518
| | | \Phillipe THORNBURY b: ABT 1430 d: UNKNOWN =>
| \Jane TYRRELL b: ABT 1508 d: BEF SEP 1557
| | /John GORING b: ABT 1450 d: UNKNOWN =>
| \Anne GORING b: ABT 1480 d: UNKNOWN
| \Joan HEWSTER b: ABT 1460 d: UNKNOWN =>
/Anthony STOUGHTON b: 04 JUL 1598 d: 14 JAN 1644
| | /Thomas IVE b: ABT 1420 d: UNKNOWN
| | /Richard IVE b: ABT 1450 d: UNKNOWN
| | | \ FRANCES b: ABT 1425 d: UNKNOWN
| | /Thomas IVE b: ABT 1480 d: AFT 1531
| | /Richard IVE Lord of Topsfield b: ABT 1510 d: 08 FEB 1558
| \Rose IVE b: BEF 08 FEB 1558 d: 13 NOV 1632
| | /William AGMONDESHAM b: ABT 1420 d: UNKNOWN =>
| | /Ralph AGMONDESHAM b: ABT 1450 d: 1498
| | | \ JULYAN b: ABT 1425 d: UNKNOWN
| | /Henry AGMONDESHAM b: ABT 1490 d: UNKNOWN
| \Elizabeth AGMONDESHAM b: ABT 1535 d: UNKNOWN
| \ ELIZABETH b: ABT 1500 d: UNKNOWN
Rose STOUGHTON b: NOV 1629 d: 01 JAN 1673
| /Robert PIERCE b: ABT 1581 d: UNKNOWN
\Agnes PIERCE b: ABT 1610 d: UNKNOWN

condyfee

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Oct 25, 2015, 2:20:20 PM10/25/15
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On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:52:26 PM UTC-7, nathan...@gmail.com wrote:
Name: Rose STOUGHTON 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Sex: F
Birth: NOV 1629 in Stoughton, Surrey, England 1 4 7 8 10
Event: Arrival 1643 Boston, Massachusetts 9
Death: 01 JAN 1673 in Dover, Stratford, NH 3

MY GATE WAY TO SPANISH ROYAL LINES

taf

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Oct 25, 2015, 5:16:02 PM10/25/15
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I misunderstood what you were saying, but now I see. Let's take a look . . .

On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 11:17:20 AM UTC-7, condyfee wrote:

> | /Constantinus ANGELUS b: 1090
> | /Andronicus ANGELUS b: 1125 d: 1185
> | | \Theodora COMNENA b: 1096 d:
> | /Issac ANGELUS Eastern Roman Emperor II b:
> | | | /Theodoros CASTAMONITA b:
> | | \Euphrosyne CASTAMONITA b: 1130 d:
> \Irene ANGELICA b: ABT 1181 d: 27 AUG 1208
> | /Isaac COMNENUS b: AFT 16 JAN
> | /Andronicus COMNENUS Emperor of Byz
> | | \ KATA b: ABT 1095 d: UNKNOWN
> \Irena COMNENA b: ABT 1166 d: AFT 1185
> | /Raymond d'AQUITAINE Prince of
> \Philippa de ANTIOCH b: ABT 1145 d:
> \Constance de HAUTEVILLE

Isaac II married a woman named Irene, but doubts have been raised whether she was mother of his daughter Irene. Further, her parentage is entirely unknown, and there is no evidence she was a Comnena. Likewise, Andronicos Comnenos had a complex pattern of amorous unions, so even were Irene his daughter, there is no basis to determine which wife or mistress was the mother (he is sometimes assigned an illegitimate daughter Irene who married Alexios, son of Emperor Manuel Comnenos).



> /WILLIAM I The Great Count of Bourgogne b:
> /RAYMOND of Bourgogne Count of Castile b: ABT 1070 d:
> | | /Roger de FOIX Count Bigorre
> | | /Bernard de BIGORRE II b: ABT 1000 d:
> | | | \GERSENDE of Bigorre b: ABT
> | \Stephanie de BIGORRE b: ABT 1040 d: 10 OCT
> | | /Robert de AUVERGNE III Count
> | \Clemence d'AUVERGNE b: ABT 1005 d:
> | \Ermengarde de GEVAUDAN b: ABT

The parentage of Raymond's mother is entirely unknown. We know she was named Stephanie (Etiennette/Estefania) but ntothing more. However, genealogy abhors a vacuum, so attempts have been made to build a house of cards that allows parents to be assigned. The argument runs something like the following:

Raymond of Burgundy and Henry of Burgundy, French crusaders in Iberia, are said in somewhat late Iberian sources to have been kinsmen. If you look at their known paternal pedigrees, there is no indication of an avenue for such a relationship. However, the mother of both are genealogical conundra. Henry was grandson of Duke Robert of Burgundy, via his son Henry who died during his father's lifetime, leaving a scant record in surviving documents. Absolutely nothing is known of his wife. (She is sometimes called Sibyl, but that has been shown to have arisen from the assumption that a widowed Sibyl in Burundian documents must have been his former wife, when in fact all of those documents post-date the death of her son Eudes/Odo, who had a known wife Sibyl.) Raymond's mother is known by name, but nothing more. Thus we have an unknown relationship and two unknown mothers, so the relationship must be through these two unknowns (ignoring the distinct possibility that it was through the unknown mother of one and the known father of the other). One thing we do know - it could not have been a close relationship, since the above-named Sibyl, wife of Eudes/Odo, the brother of Henry, was sister of Raymond, and the church would not have permitted close kin to have married. So, a quest was made for a relationship distant enough to allow intermarriage, but not so distant as to be forgotten.

It starts with Henry's mother. Here the sole clue available to us (if it even means anything) is that the aforesaid Eudes bore the byname Borel. This would appear to be the same name as Borrell, found along the French and Spanish Mediterranean coast. Attention turned to the counts of Barcelona, where there was a count Raimond Borrell (no consideration was given to the possibility that it was any of the other regional families using the name). Generation-wise, crusader Henry's mother would be granddaughter of Raimond Borrell, so she is made daughter of his son Berenguer Raimond I (again, no consideration given to the possibility that she was daughter of a sibling of Berenguer). For a mother, Berenguer's second wife, Guisla, is chosen, for reasons never adequately explained.

OK, so to make Raymond of Burgundy a kinsman (but not too close) of Henry, we need to find a family related to Berenguer, with bonus points if they used the name Raimond (a name from the same region, not previously found among the counts of Burgundy, and/or Stephanie. Attention focussed on Bernard Roger of Bigorre: his sister Ermesenda was mother of Berenguer Raimond, he had a brother Raimond Roger, and some sources give him a daughter Stephanie, the wife of Garcia IV of Navarre. Now, the presence of the name Stephanie would be a good sign, but not if she married someone else. However, other sources instead make Garcia's wife Stephanie the daughter of Raimond Borrell, which would free up Bernard's daughter for a Burgundian marriage. However, the only basis for Bernard having such a daughter is the sources reporting the marriage to Garcia - no marriage, no daughter. At any rate, based on this chain of argumentation, Stephanie, wife of William is frequently made daughter of Bernard Roger (oor alternatively, of Raimond Borrell), based on nothing but a vague statement that Raymond and Henry were kinsmen, and the name Raymond itself. This is not genealogy, it is glorified 'pin the tail on the donkey'. After all, given that Raymond and Henry were foreigners, both from the Burgundy region, and had a familial connection via the marriage of their siblings, and their whole Iberian rivalry just makes such a better tale if they were akin, it is possible these late sources reporting a relationship are simply wrong.



> | /SANCHO King III of Navarre
> | /GARCIA III of Navarre b: AFT 1012 d:
> | | \Munia SANCHEZ b: 995 d: AFT 1
> | /SANCHO V King of Navarre b: ABT 1038 d: 1083
> | | | /Ramon BORREL III Count of
> | | \Estefania de BARCELONA b: ABT 1008 d:
> | | \Ermesinde de FOIX b: ABT 975
> | /RAMIRO Lord of Urroz II b: ABT 1080 d: 1116
> | | | /SANCHO Senor de Maranon
> | | \ COSTANZA b: ABT 1055 d: UNKNOWN
> | /GARCIA IV King of Navarre b: ABT 1110 d: 21 NOV 1150

Several issues here. First, the father of Ramiro was named Sancho, and he was son of king Garcia Sanchez III, but he was not identical to Sancho IV. The Iberian kings had this confusing practice of giving the same names to legitimate and illegitimate sons. Thus Garcia had a legitimate son Sancho, who would succeed his father as Sancho IV, who was murdered by his siblings, but also an illegitimate son named Sancho, who would become father of Ramiro and ancestor of the later kings. Obviously, then, this illegitimate Sancho was not the son of Stephanie.

Regarding Stephanie's parentage, see the discussion above. Most French scholars are of the opinion she was daughter of Bernard Roger, as per one source, while another source makes her daughter of the Count of Barcelona as you have her. Tied in with this are a couple of legends regarding an Iberian marriage of Norman crusader Roger de Toeny that are hard to harmonize with other records, but this post is already too long to go into it.

The parentage of Constanza is problematic. Traditional pedigrees (undocumented) give her the parentage you have here, but one of those legends I just mentioned has an unnamed illegitimate son of Garcia marrying an unnamed daughter of Stephanie born to an earlier marriage, and it has been suggested these are Sancho and Constanza (a name unknown to Iberia before this generation).

Finally, as an aside, the numbering of the Garcias is difficult. The latest generation you show was the fifth or sixth Garcia to rule, depending on whom you choose to count. Garcia Iniguez ruled in the 9th century, while Garcia Jimenez ruled 'another part of the kingdom' at the start of the 10th. Then there were Garcia Sanchez I, II, and III (the last being Stephanie's husband - note that he is not Garcia III, but the third Garcia Sanchez). If you count all of them, then Garcia Ramirez was Garcia VI. If you just count the ones who ruled the main state, then he was Garcia V. If you just count the ones from the so-called 'Jimenez' dynasty, then he was also Garcia V. However, he was the 4th Garcia of the Jimenez dynasty to rule the central state. I will let you decide which you prefer.

> | | | /El Cid Rodrigo Diaz de VIVAR b: ABT 1043 d: 1
> | | \Christina "Elvira" Rodrigues de VIVAR b: ABT 1092 d:
> | | | /Fernando GUNDEMARIZ b: ABT 10
> | | | /Ct. de Oviedo Diego FERNANDEZ b: ABT
> | | | | \Muniadona ORDONEZ b: ABT 1025
> | | \Jimena DIAZ b: ABT 1070 d: UNKNOWN
> | | | /Alfonso ORDONEZ b: ABT 1010
> | | \Christina ALFONSO b: ABT 1050 d:

This last set of relationships is not all that well supported. We know that Jimena was daughter of Christina, and we know there was a Christina Alfonso at this time, but there is no evidence they were the same. As proof that no good deed goes unpublished, many years back I was the one who put forward this connection as a possibility, nothing more, but it now pervades the online genealogies.

We know that Jimena was a descendant of Fernando Gundemariz, but not on which side. The version you have was suggested by a recent author, but you should be aware that in it sot entirely solid. Other reconstructions make Christina the daughter of Fernando, and connect count Diego to the same family as El Cid's paternal line. Diego, by the way, is not attested as count of Oviedo. He was a count, and his son was count of Oviedo, but with a few exceptions where it had more specific linkage, the title 'count' was more a level of social/political standing at the time in much of Iberia, rather than being linked to a specific territory.

taf

Peter Stewart

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Oct 25, 2015, 6:23:24 PM10/25/15
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On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 8:16:02 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:
> I misunderstood what you were saying, but now I see. Let's take a look . . .
>
> On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 11:17:20 AM UTC-7, condyfee wrote:
>
> > | /Constantinus ANGELUS b: 1090
> > | /Andronicus ANGELUS b: 1125 d: 1185
> > | | \Theodora COMNENA b: 1096 d:
> > | /Issac ANGELUS Eastern Roman Emperor II b:
> > | | | /Theodoros CASTAMONITA b:
> > | | \Euphrosyne CASTAMONITA b: 1130 d:
> > \Irene ANGELICA b: ABT 1181 d: 27 AUG 1208
> > | /Isaac COMNENUS b: AFT 16 JAN
> > | /Andronicus COMNENUS Emperor of Byz
> > | | \ KATA b: ABT 1095 d: UNKNOWN
> > \Irena COMNENA b: ABT 1166 d: AFT 1185
> > | /Raymond d'AQUITAINE Prince of
> > \Philippa de ANTIOCH b: ABT 1145 d:
> > \Constance de HAUTEVILLE
>
> Isaac II married a woman named Irene, but doubts have been raised
> whether she was mother of his daughter Irene. Further, her parentage
> is entirely unknown, and there is no evidence she was a Comnena.

The evidence that Isaac's first wife was named Eirene must be rejected too - this comes only from a necrology of Speyer cathedral, where the mother of Isaac's daughter Eirene was called "Herina". The compiler in Germany almost certainly did not know the mother's name and assumed it could the same as the daughter's. However, he also did not realise that this would have flouted a very well-established Byzantine custom of never giving children the name of a parent. Consequently Eirene is the one name we can be virtually certain was not that of Eirene Angelina's mother.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Oct 25, 2015, 6:41:02 PM10/25/15
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On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 5:17:20 AM UTC+11, condyfee wrote:
> Display pedigree in table format
>
> /OTTO-WILLIAM King of Lombardy b: ABT 959 d: BEF 21 SEP 1026 =>

I am not up to reading through these tables in detail, but this misstatement at the head of the second table is glaring - Otto-William was count of Macon & Nevers, and he is often called count of Burgundy, but not "King of Lombardy" - his father Adalbert was associated as king in the reign of his own father, Berengar II (generally using the designation "of Italy" rather than "of Lombardy"), but they were deposed. Since the kingdom was elective, there was no hereditary right descending to (or claimed by) Otto-William.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

D. Spencer Hines

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Oct 25, 2015, 7:55:30 PM10/25/15
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Yes, Peter...

You get a pat on the back and a Gold Star for pursuing what must properly be
called:

Fantasy Genealogy...

DSH

"You take the lies out of him, and he'll shrink to the size of your hat; you
take the malice out of him, and he'll disappear." -- Mark Twain

"Peter Stewart" wrote in message
news:f6e1d242-82d4-4f05...@googlegroups.com...

taf

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Oct 25, 2015, 8:15:44 PM10/25/15
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Thanks, I knew the Eirene/Eirene thing was a problem, but had forgotten the precise details (plus I posted in a rush since my computer crashed and I lost a more detailed first attempt, and didn't want to spend too much time on the second try).

taf

condyfee

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Oct 25, 2015, 8:29:38 PM10/25/15
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On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 3:23:24 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:
I THANK YOU FOR YOUR IN PUT ON THIS

Peter Stewart

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Oct 25, 2015, 8:38:13 PM10/25/15
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Eirene could well have been the name of Eirene Angelina's maternal grandmother - the eldest daughter of Isaac Angelos was named Euphrosyne (after his own mother), so the next daughter (as far as we know Eirene), customarily would have been named after her mother's mother. This woman _may_ have been the wife of Demetrios Tornikes, whose son Konstantinos was called "uncle" of Isaac's son Alexios IV, but this relies on less-than-compelling evidence.

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Oct 25, 2015, 10:57:25 PM10/25/15
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On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 8:16:02 AM UTC+11, taf wrote:

> It starts with Henry's mother. Here the sole clue available to us
> (if it even means anything) is that the aforesaid Eudes bore the
> byname Borel. This would appear to be the same name as Borrell,
> found along the French and Spanish Mediterranean coast. Attention
> turned to the counts of Barcelona, where there was a count Raimond
> Borrell (no consideration was given to the possibility that it was
> any of the other regional families using the name).

Linking the dukes of Burgundy to the counts of Barcelona merely because of the byname 'Borel' or 'Borrell' occurring in both families seems to be another example of overworked imagination on the part of genealogists. It is not unlike the nonsense that has been perpetuated about a supposed dynastic second name for Charles 'Constantine' of Vienne, due to a single instance of the byname used outside his family circle and despite the number of documents from within where it does not appear.

In the case of Eudes and his son Hugo II of Burgundy, the byname Borel was explained by Ernest Petit as indicating they had red hair. He pointed to variants, 'Borot', 'Boreau' and 'Beurot', with this meaning.

He might also have pointed to a monk named Hugo Borrel who witnessed a charter in 1133 at Saint-Pierre de la Couture, in Maine, to the Hugo Borrel who subscribed a charter for Maison-Dieu at Chateaudun in 1169 and to his successor Eudes Borrel mentioned in another charter there dated 1173. Can anyone seriously propose that these men too were descended from counts of Barcelona?

Peter Stewart

Peter Stewart

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Oct 25, 2015, 11:35:17 PM10/25/15
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On Monday, October 26, 2015 at 1:57:25 PM UTC+11, Peter Stewart wrote:

> He might also have pointed to a monk named Hugo Borrel who witnessed
> a charter in 1133 at Saint-Pierre de la Couture, in Maine, to the Hugo
> Borrel who subscribed a charter for Maison-Dieu at Chateaudun in 1169
> and to his successor Eudes Borrel mentioned in another charter there
> dated 1173.

Apologies, the last two should be the other way round: Eudes Borrel is mentioned in a charter dated 1163 (giving assent as seigneur to a donation by his vassal), and his successor Hugo Borrel subscribed a charter in 1169.

Peter Stewart


taf

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Oct 25, 2015, 11:56:46 PM10/25/15
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On Sunday, October 25, 2015 at 7:57:25 PM UTC-7, Peter Stewart wrote:


> Linking the dukes of Burgundy to the counts of Barcelona merely because of
> the byname 'Borel' or 'Borrell' occurring in both families seems to be
> another example of overworked imagination on the part of genealogists.

I don't disagree with you. In my explanation I didn't go into the elaborate history among genealogists of the Midi of trying to link every family that used the name Raymond into a web that leads back to the early Counts of Toulouse, with nothing but the name itself as evidence. Barcelona, Burgundy, Bigorre, Ribagorza . . .

When one goes about it with the intention of finding connections, connections will be found independent of the quality of the evidence or the validity of the reasoning.

taf

Peter Stewart

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Oct 26, 2015, 1:48:06 AM10/26/15
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This has also been done to death (and beyond, flogging the horse afterwards) with the name Guillaume in the Midi.

Your description "glorified 'pin the tail on the donkey'" neatly fits a good deal of work by devotees of onomastics as self-sufficient evidence, including Szabolcs de Vajay who was praised (by someone who should know better) as the "prince of genealogists".

Peter Stewart

Denis Beauregard

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Oct 26, 2015, 3:20:20 PM10/26/15
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On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 12:52:24 -0700 (PDT), nathan...@gmail.com
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:

>I'm aware of Denis Beauregard's website that maintains a list of Quebec gateways: http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
>
>But, is anyone aware of a similar list for French/Spanish Louisiana or Latin America?

I will include the Royal lines for French in Louisiana when I will
find them or be informed. I cover all French colonies in North
America, which include Acadia, Louisiana and French forts.


Denis

--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785
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