Lady Eleanor Butler
rwje...@hctc.net
Stillington to have had a pre-contract of marriage with Edward of
York, later King Edward IV, thus bastardizing his children by
Elizabeth Woodville?
Robert
John Carmi Parsons
because it was Richard III's SECOND attempt to establish the illegitimacy
of Edward IV or his descendants.
The first attempt, incredibly enough, was a claim that Edward himself had
been illegitimate. This story probably rested ultimately upon the fact
that Edward had been born outside England, in Rouen. There could, then,
have been some doubts as to the circumstances of his conception and birth,
as there had been with Richard II who had been born in Bordeaux, and who
had against whom there had also been charges that his real father had not
been the Black Prince but a "certain lady-faced priest" who was a member
of Richard's mother's household. In Richard's case, his lack of close
resemblance to the magnificent and warlike Black Prince made it easier for
people to give some credit to these rumors.
What defeated this first claim by Richard was, of course, that in order to
establish Edward's illegitimate, Richard perforce had to claim or imply
that his own mother, Cecily duchess of York, had committed adultery--and
she was still alive in 1483! By some cosmic coincidence, moreover,
Richard dined with Cecily in her London residence at Bayard's Castle on
the evening of the day Richard's partisans had first advanced the claim of
Edward's illegitimacy. Many historians have expressed the wish they had
been a fly on the wall in the dining room that night. Whatever happened,
the story was withdrawn the next day and the Eleanor Butler claim was then
substituted for it.
It is odd that given the clandestine circumstances of Edward IV's real
marriage, to Elizabeth Woodville, Richard never tried to establish that it
was unlawful, except to claim that it was doubtful because Edward had not
consulted his barons about it, as a king should do. The only attempt to
undermine the Woodville marriage was made through the claim that Edward
had previously agreed to marry Lady Eleanor Butler, a daughter of the earl
of Ormond in Ireland.
There were plenty of Eleanor Butlers in the Ormond family, but nobody has
ever succeeded in pointing to one of them as the woman to whom Edward was
supposedly contracted. Nor has the text of such a marriage contract ever
been discovered. When, in 1483, people began to ask if she couldn't be
questioned about the matter, Richard's partisans explained that she had
taken the veil after Edward abandoned her, and had subsequently died--very
convenient, one must say. It's significant that no members of the Butler
family were ever interrogated on the matter, nor did the Church ever issue
any declaration that the Woodville marriage was invalid.
John Parsons
rwje...@hctc.net
Parsons) wrote:
>Most historians are today skeptical of the Eleanor Butler story, chiefly
>because it was Richard III's SECOND attempt to establish the illegitimacy
>of Edward IV or his descendants.
I know that, but I still would like to know who she was, and who her
parents were.
John Carmi Parsons
But the woman allegedly contracted to Edward of York has never been identified
with any historical Eleanor Butler; she may never have existed. Consequently
there seems little point in guessing who her parents might have been, apart
from the historical coincidence that--if she did exist--she would have been,
chronologically speaking, something like a great-grandaunt or great-great-
grandaunt of Anne Boleyn.
John P.
ALAN O. WATKINS
illegitimate.
A son of Gloucester
John Carmi Parsons <jpar...@chass.utoronto.ca> wrote in article
<Pine.SGI.3.95.981013...@chass.utoronto.ca>...
> Most historians are today skeptical of the Eleanor Butler story, chiefly
> because it was Richard III's SECOND attempt to establish the illegitimacy
> of Edward IV or his descendants.
>
earl
> of Ormond in Ireland.
>
William Addams Reitwiesner
She was a Butler only by marriage.
1. Eleanor Talbot, d. 30 June 1468, m. Thomas Boteler, son and heir of
Ralph Boteler, 1st Baron Sudeley. Thomas d. v.p. and s.p. between 1450 and
1468 (according to Cokayne's *Complete Peerage*, vol. XII part 1, p. 422).
Cokayne says Eleanor was a sister of Sir John Talbot, but the pro-Richard
III camp has her as a daughter of an Earl of Shrewsbury. Exactly which
Earl is not made clear, unfortunately.
For more of the pro-Richard III story, start with the Ricardian website,
<http://www.r3.org>.
William Addams Reitwiesner
wr...@erols.com
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
Suzanne Doig
>Who were the parents of this lady, who was reported by Bishop
>Stillington to have had a pre-contract of marriage with Edward of
>York, later King Edward IV, thus bastardizing his children by
>Elizabeth Woodville?
From Alison Weir, 'The Princes in the Tower', p 118
Eleanor was described in Titulus Regius as a daughter of John Talbot,
Earl of Shrewsbury (c1388-1453). Commines [who identifies Stillington
as the source of the pre-contract story] casts doubt on this, and
other sources give her an otherwise unidentified brother, Sir John
Talbot.
Unverified d.o.b. 1435. Married c.1449/1450 to Sir Thomas Butler, son
and heir of Ralph, Lord Sudeley. They lived at Sudeley Castle,
Gloucestershire, until Thomas d.s.p. 1460/1461. There was a dispute
over some of Thomas's estate, which led Eleanor to petition the king
for the return of these lands. This is the only record of any contact
between Eleanor and Edward IV.
Eleanor died shortly before 30 June 1468 and was buried in the
conventual church of Carmelites in Norwich.
Suzanne
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* Dr Suzanne Doig sm...@csc.canterbury.ac.nz *
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ED MANN
>
> Who were the parents of this lady, who was reported by Bishop
> Stillington to have had a pre-contract of marriage with Edward of
> York, later King Edward IV, thus bastardizing his children by
> Elizabeth Woodville?
I have her as Eleanor Talbot, aka Eleanor Butler. See BRF:141.
Direct Descendants of Edward I of England
1 King Edward I of England aka: "Longshanks" b: 17 Jun 1239 d: 1307
ref #: BRF:81
+Princess Alianore de Castile b: 1240 d: 28 Nov 1290 ref #: Ä110-30
2 Joan Plantagenet aka: Joan of England; Joan of Acre b: 1272 d: 23
Apr 1307 ref #: F60:12
+Sir Gilbert de Clare aka: 3d Earl of Gloucester; 7th Earl of Hertford
b: 2 Sep 1243 d: 7 Dec 1295 ref #: W28-4
3 Alainor de Clare b: Oct 1292 d: 30 Jun 1337 ref #: F61:11
+Sir Hugh le Despencer aka: 2d Lord Despencer d: 24 Nov 1326 ref #:
W14-6
4 Isabel le Despencer b: Abt. 1312 ref #: F55:10
+Sir Richard FitzAlan aka: 9th Earl of Arundel b: Abt. 1313 d: 24 Jan
1375/76 ref #: W121-6
5 Mary FitzAlan aka: Isabel FitzAlan d: 29 Aug 1396 ref #: F55:10ii
+Sir John le Strange aka: 4th Baron Strange of Blackmere b: 1322 d: 12
May 1361 ref #: BxP:516
6 [2] Ankaret le Strange b: Abt. 1361 d: 1 Jun 1413 ref #: F55:10iia
+[1] Sir Richard Talbot aka: 4th Lord Talbot b: Abt. 1361 d: 9 Sep 1396
ref #: F263:8
7 [5] Gen. Sir John Talbot aka: 6th Lord Talbot / 1st Earl of
Shrewsbury b: 1384 d: 17 Jul 1453 ref #: F264:7
+[4] Maud Neville b: 1392 d: 1423 ref #: BxP:225
8 Sir John Talbot aka: 2d Earl of Shrewsbury b: Abt. 1413 d: 10 Jul
1460 ref #: F264:6
9 Eleanor Talbot aka: Eleanor Butler d: 1468 ref #: BRF:141
2 Elizabeth Plantagenet b: 7 Aug 1282 d: 5 May 1316 ref #: F24:12
*2nd Husband of Elizabeth Plantagenet:
+Sir Humphrey de Bohun VIII aka: 4th Earl of Hereford & Essex b: Abt.
1276 d: 16 Mar 1321/22 ref #: W18-5
3 Alianor de Bohun b: 17 Oct 1304 d: 7 Oct 1363 ref #: F45:10
+Sir James Butler aka: 1st Earl of Ormonde b: Abt. 1305 d: 6 Jan
1337/38 ref #: Ä73-32
4 Petronilla Butler aka: Pernel Butler b: Abt. 1332 d: Bef. 1369 ref
#: F263:9
+Sir Gilbert Talbot aka: 3d Lord Talbot b: Abt. 1332 d: 24 Apr 1387 ref
#: W141-6
5 [1] Sir Richard Talbot aka: 4th Lord Talbot b: Abt. 1361 d: 9 Sep
1396 ref #: F263:8
+[2] Ankaret le Strange b: Abt. 1361 d: 1 Jun 1413 ref #: F55:10iia
4 Sir Nicholas de Dagworth aka: 2d Baron Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
5 Thomasine de Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
+Sir William de Furnival aka: 4th Lord Furnival ref #: BxP:225
6 Joane de Furnival ref #: BxP:225
+[3] Sir Thomas de Neville aka: Lord Furnival b: Abt. 1362 d: 14 Mar
1406/07 ref #: BxP:393
7 [4] Maud Neville b: 1392 d: 1423 ref #: BxP:225
+[5] Gen. Sir John Talbot aka: 6th Lord Talbot / 1st Earl of Shrewsbury
b: 1384 d: 17 Jul 1453 ref #: F264:7
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Adrian Channing
>-
Robert wrote on the subject of Lady Eleanor of Talbot:
> Who were the parents of this lady, who was reported by Bishop
> Stillington to have had a pre-contract of marriage with Edward of
> York, later King Edward IV, thus bastardizing his children by
> Elizabeth Woodville?
>
You should try and get hold of Genealogists' Magazine (that is the Soc of
Genealogists, London) Vol 26 No 3, Sep 1998 in which there is an article of
the subject.
John Ashdown-Hill identifies her as Lady Eleanor Talbot dau of John Talbot,
first Earl of Shrewsbury by his second wife, Lady Margaret Beauchamp, and
the young widow of Sir Thomas Butler, only son and heir of Ralph, Lord
Sudeley.
"Information regarding the existence of this earlier marriage had been laid
before the royal council in June 1483, by Robert Stillington. Bishop of
Bath and Wells, who, by his own statement, had been present when Edward IV
had vowed marriage to Lady Eleanor
A skeleton preserved in Norwich may be that of Lady Eleanor Talbot. Mr
Ashdown-Hill is researching the female descendants of Lady Eleanor's
ancestor Sir William Pypard by Margery in the hope that he will be able to
trace a living descendant and then compare mitochondrial DNA (Lots of
Luck), and a tree of some of these descendants are included in the article.
Mr Ashdown-Hill does state that many historians have dismissed the Talbot
marriage as fantasy.
regards Adrian
>
Adrian (Surrey, UK) ACha...@CompuServe.Com
My spelling is wobbly. It's good spelling, but it wobbles and the letters
get in the wrong order.
ED MANN
>
> Ed,
>
> > 4 Sir Nicholas de Dagworth aka: 2d Baron Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
> > 5 Thomasine de Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
> > +Sir William de Furnival aka: 4th Lord Furnival ref #: BxP:225
>
As father of number 5. Or do I not understand your question?
Direct Descendants of Edward I of England
1 King Edward I of England aka: "Longshanks" b: 17 Jun 1239 d: 1307
ref #: BRF:81
+Princess Alianore de Castile b: 1240 d: 28 Nov 1290 ref #: Ä110-30
2 Elizabeth Plantagenet b: 7 Aug 1282 d: 5 May 1316 ref #: F24:12
*2nd Husband of Elizabeth Plantagenet:
+Sir Humphrey de Bohun VIII aka: 4th Earl of Hereford & Essex b:
Abt. 1276 d: 16 Mar 1321/22 ref #: W18-5
3 Alianor de Bohun b: 17 Oct 1304 d: 7 Oct 1363 ref #: F45:10
*2nd Husband of Alianor de Bohun:
+Sir Thomas de Dagworth aka: 1st Baron Dagworth d: 1359 ref #:
BxP:153
4 Sir Nicholas de Dagworth aka: 2d Baron Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
5 Thomasine de Dagworth ref #: BxP:153
*2nd Wife of Edward I of England:
Laura Blanchard
> It is odd that given the clandestine circumstances of Edward IV's real
> marriage, to Elizabeth Woodville, Richard never tried to establish that it
> was unlawful, except to claim that it was doubtful because Edward had not
> consulted his barons about it, as a king should do. The only attempt to
> undermine the Woodville marriage was made through the claim that Edward
> had previously agreed to marry Lady Eleanor Butler, a daughter of the earl
> of Ormond in Ireland.
John, you might want to look at H. A. Kelly, "The Case Against Edward
IV's Marriage and Offspring: Secrety; Witchcraft; Secrecy; Precontract,"
in the September 1998 _Ricardian_. I'd say his reading of Titulus Regius
is a little less dismissive than yours. A piece on Eleanor Butler by
John Ashdown-Hill, whom you've previously cited, also appeared in the
December 1997 _Ricardian_, and the result is that this September issue
includes both Kelly's piece and further commentary from Ashdown-Hill.
The text of Titulus Regius (the Act of Parliament settling the crown on
Richard III) is reprinted in P.W. Hammond and A.E. Sutton, _Richard III:
The Road to Bosworth Field (Constable, 1985). An online edition of TR,
to be placed on the Richard III Society (American Branch) web site, is
in process.
Regards,
Laura Blanchard
lbla...@pobox.upenn.edu
http://www.r3.org/