Braose-Wingfield continued

[Doug Smith]

IPM for Edmund Bacon died 1362 (posted by Paul Mackenzie) is very
interesting. He may have been the next husband of the Joan married to
Richard de Braose since he was the guardian of her child Richard. That is,
the widow Joan may have been the "Joan de Brewes" who married Edmund Bacon
who died in 1362. Pounynges sounds like Poynings but I am not sure about
Burgwash. Maybe Burghersh?????

Doug

[Robert S Baxter]

I thought I would interject that according to CP XII/1 pp 439-40 Katherine
Wingfield who marred Michael Earl of Suffolk was the dtr of Eleanor de
Glanville and Sir John Wingfield. In the footnote to the attribution of the
wife the statement is made that this is not proved by charter evidence. But
reference is made to Rec. of the Anglo-Norman House of Glanville, and to
Harleian manuscripts. Was Wingfield married twice?

Regards,

Bob Baxter

[A Channing]

Doug wrote,

I have not had time to follow this thread, but there is a Burwash (no "g")
in East Sussex, about half way between Tunbridge Wells and Eastbourne,
however I believe it is pronounced Burrish, or something like that.

ŠAdrian (Surrey, UK) <ACha...@CompuServe.Com>
NB There should _not_ be an(y) attachment(s) to this plain text message

[Paul Mackenzie]

The IPM was dated 1362 but Edmund de Bacon died in 1337. I don't know the
reason for the delay.

Regards

Paul

Doug Smith wrote in message ...

[The...@aol.com]

Thursday, 10 January, 2002

Hello Doug, Paul et al.,

I haven't found a definitive confirmation yet, but it does appear that
Joan de Brewes or de Breuse, lst wife of Sir Edmund Bacon, was daughter of
Richard de Beaumont and previously the wife of Sir Giles de Breuse (this from
a website making the connection - looking now for actual
documentation........).

Also, Poynings is correct; and the name in fact is Burghersh (or de
Burghersh). Re: these, and the Bacon-Kerdeston-Burghersh connection (below),
see Tim Powys-Lybbe's site at

www.freewebz.com/powys/pl_tree/ps22/ps22_318.htm

What we seem to be led to is the following marital daisy-chain: for
clarity's sake (!), -1- means First Husband; [1] means First Wife.

Richard de Beaumont
of Witnesham, Suffolk
I
I
-1- I -2- -1- -2-
Sir Giles = Joan de [1] = Edmund = [2] Margery = Nicholas
de Breuse I Beaumont I Bacon I Poynings de la Beche
I I I____________________
___________________ I_______________ I
I I I I I
Richard Robert John de Margaret Margery
de de Breuse Bacon Bacon
Breuse Breuse d.aft May = William de = William de
dsp bef dsp 1370 Kerdeston, 2nd Moleyns, of
1325 1325 = Eve Lord Kerdeston Stoke Poges
d'Ufford d. 14 Aug 1361 d. 14 Feb 1380/81
I I I
I I I
Sir John de Breuse Maud de Kerdeston Richard de Moleyns
of Stinton & c. dvp 20 May 1349 d 14 Dec 1384
d aft 1394 = Sir John de = Eleanor Beaumont
= Joan Shardelow Burghersh [acc to Burke's]
I I I
I I I
V V V

Hope this helps.

John *

* John P. Ravilious

[The...@aol.com]

Thursday, 10 January, 2002

Hello Bob,

Which Harleian MSS are referred to in CP XII/1 I am not certain; the
use of Glanville-Richards' work as a reference was ill-advised in hindsight.
This work is nicely written, but a comparison of the text in CP re: the
Earldom of Suffolk vs. the account in Records of the Anglo-Norman House of
Glanville will find a number of glaring problems, not the least of which is
the author's line of Glanville Earls of Suffolk.

For an interesting read, when so inclined, you can access the text of
this work on-line (a serious waste of bandwidth) at

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jglanville/roanhg4.htm

For comparison, look at the SGM archives (preferably, start at least
with Todd Farmerie's post, under _Braose-Wingfield Connection_, giving the
text of Moriarty's discussion of Sir Richard de Brews and Sir John de
Wingfield).

Good luck, and good hunting.

[The...@aol.com]

Thursday, 10 January, 2002

Hello Paul,

Not sure, but a 1362 date would seem to be connected to the death of
William de Kerdeston, 2nd Lord Kerdeston (son-in-law of Sir Edmund Bacon) on
14 Aug 1361, leaving as heir of William de Kerdeston and his wife (the late
Margaret Bacon) their minor grandson, John de Burghersh. [See Tim
Powys-Lybbe's site, per my prior post]

[Robert O'Connor]

>
> Richard de Beaumont
> of Witnesham, Suffolk
> I

Is anyone aware of the origins of this Richard de Beaumont??

Robert O'Connor

[Robert S Baxter]

Thursday, 10 January, 2002

Hello Bob,

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jglanville/roanhg4.htm

John *

* John P. Ravilious

John,

Harl MSS 1233, f120, and 1411, f54.

Regards,

Bob

[Tim Powys-Lybbe]

In message <PDENJIDJFCOIMMNKHK...@bellsouth.net>

CP XIV, 602 corrects the mistake of Katherine's ancestry and, even in
Vol XII/1 p. 440, note (c) adds that "Her parentage has not been proved
by charter evidence".

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org