Another CP Addition: Anne West, wife of John Clinton, 7th Lord Clinton
Douglas Richardson
Available records of early Chancery Proceedings include a suit between
Thomas West, Lord la Warre, and his daughter, Anne's husband, John
Clinton, Lord Clinton and Saye. The suit is dated 1501/2. An
abstract of the suit can be found on the online PROCAT website at the
following web address:
C1/252/20
Thomas West, lord la Warr, v. John Clynton, Lord Clinton and Saye:
Neglect to settle the manors of Belhall and Amyngton [co. Warwick] on
himself and Anne, daughter of Lord la Warr, on their marriage.
Complete Peerage 3 (1913): 316-317 (sub Clinton) indicates that John
Clinton, 7th Lord Clinton (died 1514) married (2nd) before 1501 Anne,
whose maiden name and parentage are not identified. The Chancery suit
cited above proves that Anne was the daughter of Thomas West, lord la
Warre (died 1525). However, the question now remains: Which of Thomas
West's wives was the mother of Anne?
Thomas West married (1st) Eleanor Percy, daughter of Henry Percy,
Knt., 3rd Earl of Northumberland, by whom he is not known to have had
any children. He married (2nd) in or before 1482 Elizabeth Mortimer,
by whom he had ten children. Given the chronology, it seems possible
that either wife was the mother of his daughter, Anne. I'd very much
appreciate comments from anyone with knowledge of these families.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Thomas West married (1st) Eleanor Percy, daughter of Henry Percy,
> Knt., 3rd Earl of Northumberland, by whom he is not known to have had
> any children. He married (2nd) in or before 1482 Elizabeth Mortimer,
> by whom he had ten children. Given the chronology, it seems possible
> that either wife was the mother of his daughter, Anne. I'd very much
> appreciate comments from anyone with knowledge of these families.
Doug kindly sent me the details of the chancery suit a few days ago, as a CP
addition. Earlier this week I had a chance to look at the record of that
suit and some other relevant printed sources.
It's clear that John Clinton's wife Anne, mentioned in the CP account, is a
daughter of Thomas West, Lord la Warr (d. 1525), but the evidence leaves
uncertain two related questions - (1) whether Anne was the mother of John
Clinton's son and heir, Thomas, and (2) which of Thomas West's wives was
Anne's mother.
(1) The identity of Thomas Clinton's mother.
CP [iii 317] says that Anne was "apparently" not the mother of John
Clinton's son and heir Thomas, implying that the mother was Elizabeth,
daughter of Sir John Morgan, whom John Clinton is "said to have married"
firstly.
However, the basis of this seems to be only the language of a grant to John
Clinton's grandson Edward in 1535, of livery of his lands, including
reversions on the deaths of Anne Clynton, widow of John, and Joan, then wife
of Sir Robert Wyngefeld and widow of John's son Thomas. In the published
abstract, Joan is described as Edward's mother, but Anne is not described as
his grandmother, which seems to be the basis of CP's conclusion that she was
apparently not the mother of John's heir.
On the other hand, in Thomas West's bill in the 1501 x 1502 chancery suit,
he recounts a pre-marital agreement whereby he had paid more than 1000 marks
to John Clinton, and Clinton had promised to settle all the lands he then
held in England on himself and Anne and the heirs of their bodies. This
seems a bit odd, if Clinton already had a son and heir by a previous
marriage.
For what it's worth, the fact that John Clinton's son was called Thomas is
easily explained if he was Anne's son - he would be named after his maternal
grandfather - but not if he was the son of Elizabeth Morgan. In the latter
case, it seems we should have to go back to his 2 x great grandparents to
find anyone called Thomas.
Chronology doesn't give too much help, as Thomas Clinton was born about
1490, but apart from the fact that John was married to Anne West by 1501, CP
doesn't pin down the dates of his marriages. Thomas West was born about
1457, so the generations would have to be short for Thomas Clinton to be his
grandson, but not impossible.
(2) The identity of Anne West's mother.
At any rate, Anne West (married by 1501) could not be a daughter of Thomas
West's third wife, Eleanor Copley, as his second wife Elizabeth Mortimer did
not die until 1502.
A confusing factor is that from the wills of Thomas West, his widow Eleanor,
and Eleanor's sister Elizabeth Copley, we know that Thomas did have a
daughter Anne, who had married Sir Anthony Saint Amand and had by him a
daughter Mary. The wording of the wills suggests that Anne was dead by 1525
(whereas Anne the widow of John Clinton was still living in 1535), and that
Mary was still under "her laufull age of mariage" in 1536. This chronology,
together with the language, suggests that this Anne was a daughter of
Eleanor Copley (Eleanor refers to "my son Sayntmonde", and her sister
Elizabeth to "my [great] nece Mary Saytmont").
Beyond this, what we know of the chronology - that Thomas West married his
second wife Elizabeth Mortimer by about 1481 - would allow Anne to be the
daughter of either Eleanor Percy or Elizabeth Mortimer.
However, _if_ Anne was also the mother of Thomas Clinton, she could
certainly not have been the son of Elizabeth Mortimer, as we know that
Elizabeth Mortimer's son Thomas West (d. 1554) was succeeded by his nieces,
the heirs of his two whole-blood sisters Eleanor and Dorothy. Whereas the
Clintons were still alive and well at that time, so there would have been a
Clinton coheir if they descended from Elizabeth Mortimer.
So if it were concluded from (1) that Anne West was the mother of John
Clinton's heir, it would seem that Anne's mother must have been Eleanor
Percy. But more evidence is needed before either question is clear.
(For some more information on Thomas West and his wives, see:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/delawarr.shtml)
Chris Phillips
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.
Since making my initial post regarding Anne West, 2nd wife of John
Clinton, 7th Lord Clinton, I've located an abstract of another helpful
Chancery suit involving the baronial Clinton family, which abstract
can be access on the online PROCAT website at the following web
address:
This second suit appears to involve John Clinton's first marriage to
Elizabeth Morgan, daughter of John ap Morgan, Knight, of Wales. I've
provided below a copy of the abstract of the suit as it appears on the
PROCAT website. The plaintiff in this case is John Clinton's father,
John Clinton, Sr. (died 1488), who alleges that John ap Morgan,
knight, intends to marry his son and heir [John, Jr.] against his will
(presumably to John Morgan's daughter, Elizabeth):
E1/61/412
John Clinton, knight, Lord Clinton and Say, vs. The sheriffs of
London: Detention of complainant in time of plague at the suits of
Johanne, late the wife of Roger Hykson, saddler of London, and of John
ap Morgan, of South Wales, knight, who has complainant's son and heir
in Wales and intends to marry him against his will.
Unfortunately, the PROCAT website doesn't indicate the date of this
suit, However, I assume the suit dates from just previous to John
Clinton, Sr.'s death in 1488. If so, this would indicate that John
Clinton, Jr.'s 1st marriage to Elizabeth Morgan took place in or
before 1488, and that Elizabeth Morgan (not Anne West) was the mother
of John Clinton, Jr.'s son and heir, Thomas, born about 1490.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
"Chris Phillips" <c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk> wrote in message news:<bmmus8$ihd$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk>...
U...@aol.com
royala...@MSN.COM writes:
> Thomas West married (1st) Eleanor Percy, daughter of Henry Percy,
> Knt., 3rd Earl of Northumberland, by whom he is not known to have had
> any children. He married (2nd) in or before 1482 Elizabeth Mortimer,
> by whom he had ten children. Given the chronology, it seems possible
> that either wife was the mother of his daughter, Anne. I'd very much
> appreciate comments from anyone with knowledge of these families.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
>
Entry in CP for Thomas West:
BARONY OF WEST
V. 5.
BARONY OF LA WARRE
Vlll. 8. THOMAS (WEST), LORD LA WARRE, and LORD WEST son and heir aged 19
and more at his father's death. He obtained special livery of his lands, 1
September 1476, having served, 2 years previously, in the expedition to France.
Knighted by the King, 18 January 1477/8. He was summoned to Parliament from
15 November 1482 to 15 April 1523. Espousing the cause of Henry VII he
obtained from that King, 5 March 1485/6, large grants from the estates in Sussex of
the attainted Duke of Norfolk, including the honour of Bramber, the forest of
St. Leonards, the towns of Horsham, Shoreham, &c. He was in 1491 one of the
commanders in Flanders; aided in suppressing the Cornish rebels in 1497; in 1513
was at the sieges of Therouenne and Tournay, being made a Knight Banneret at
the defeat of the French at Guinegate, known as the Battle of the Spurs, 18
August 1513. Present at the Field of the Cloth of Gold. Nominated K.G. 23
April, and installed 11 May 1510. Attended the King's sister in 1514 at her
marriage with Louis XII of France. He married, 1stly, Elizabeth, sister and heir of
Sir John MORTIMER, and daughter of Hugh MORTIMER, of Mortimer's Hall, Hants,
by Eleanor, daughter of John CORNWALL. He married, 2ndly, Eleanor, 3rd
daughter of Sir Roger COPLEY, of Roughway, Sussex, by Anne, 2nd daughter and coheir
of Thomas (Hoo), BARON HOO AND HASTINGS. He died 11 October 1525, and was
buried at Broadwater, aged about 68. Will dated 8 October 1524 proved in the
Catholic Church of St. Paul, London, 12 February 1525/6. The will of his widow,
who was born circa 1476, was dated 10 May 1536 and proved in London 14 November
1536. [CP 4:155-6, 14:243]
I have 3 children by the 2nd wife, George, Leonard, & Owen. I have 4
children by the 1st wife, Elizabeth, Thomas, Dorothy, & Eleanor. I cannot say the
list is all-inclusive. What is your source that his 1st wife was a Percy? I
have Eleanor Percy, daughter of Henry, married to Sir Edward Stafford.
EARLDOM OF STAFFORD
VIII. 8.
DUKEDOM OF BUCKINGHAM
III. 3.
EARLDOM OF BUCKINGHAM
VII. 4. EDWARD (STAFFORD), DUKE OF BUCKINGHAM [1444], EARL OF STAFFORD
[1351], EARL OF BUCKINGHAM [1377?] and BARON STAFFORD [1298], also Count of
Perche in Normandy, son and heir, born 3 February 1477/8, at Brecknock Castle.
K.B. (as Duke of Buckingham) 29 October 1485, though not formally restored to his
honours till November 1485 by Act of Parliament. K.G. circa 1499. He was
appointed to act at the coronation of Henry VIll, in 1509 (for the day only], as
Lord High Constable.,
office he laid claim, as his hereditary right, in 1514. He also officiated
at the coronation as LORD HIGH STEWARD of England and Bearer of the Crown.
P.C., 1509. He had licence to castellate his manor of Thornbury 9 July 1510. He
held a command in the right wing at Therouenne In 1513. In right of his
representation of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester and Earl of Buckingham abovenamed (the
6th and youngest son of Edward III), he appears to have entertained some
notions of his possible right to the Crown, and having incurred the enmity of
Cardinal Wolsey, then Chief Minister, was accused and found guilty, on very
flimsy grounds, of high treason 13, and executed on Tower Hill, 17 May 1521, and
was buried at Austin Friars, London, aged 43, the attainder being confirmed in
Parliament 31 July 1523, when all his honours became forfeited. He married
[contract 14 December 1490] Eleanor, 1st daughter of Henry [Percy], 3rd Earl of
Northumberland, by Maud, daughter of William [Herbert], Earl of Pembroke. She
died 13 February 1530/31, and was buried at the Greyfriars, London. Will
dated 24 June 1528, directing her heart to be buried there and her body at the
Greyfriars, Bristol. [CP 2:390-91, 14:121]
Always optimistic--Dave
U...@aol.com
U...@aol.com
U...@aol.com
Chris Phillips
U...@aol.com wrote:
> I have 3 children by the 2nd wife, George, Leonard, & Owen. I have 4
> children by the 1st wife, Elizabeth, Thomas, Dorothy, & Eleanor. I cannot
say the
> list is all-inclusive. What is your source that his 1st wife was a Percy?
I
> have Eleanor Percy, daughter of Henry, married to Sir Edward Stafford.
The evidence that he married firstly Eleanor Percy is summarised at:
http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/delawarr.shtml
Note that Eleanor Percy must have preceded Elizabeth Mortimer, so that
Thomas West had three wives. Her father was the Henry Percy, Earl of
Northumberland, who died 1461 (she is mentioned in his will, according to
CP). The wife of Sir Edward Stafford was a generation later.
Chris Phillips
Brad Verity
> I have 3 children by the 2nd wife, George, Leonard, & Owen.
Dave,
There was another daughter, Barbara West, by the second (or third)
wife Eleanor Copley. Barbara married, Sir John Guildford, born "by
1508, only son of George Guildford of Hemsted [in Kent] by Elizabeth,
da. of Sir Robert Mortimer of Mortimer's Hall, Essex." [HOP 1982] Sir
John Guildford d. 5 July 1565.
Barbara's brother Owen West, whom you list above, married Sir John
Guildford's sister, Mary Guildford.
Cheers, ----Brad