Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe of Hainault
Douglas Richardson
Bert Kamp's recent post on the birth order of Queen Philippe of
Hainault (wife of King Edward III) and her sisters brought to mind
another question related to the comital Hainault family.
In the course of my research for the forthcoming Plantagenet Ancestry
book, I've encountered a grant dated 1367 whereby King Edward III of
England, at the instance of his wife, Philippe, granted to her bastard
sister, Elizabeth de Holand, twenty pounds of money annually at the
Exchequer [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1367-1370 (published
1913), pg.]. To my knowledge, this sister of Queen Philippe is
unknown in Hainault records and no one has attempted to identity her
in English records either.
Inasmuch as Queen Philippe's father, William, was Count of Hainault
and Holand, Brice Clagett has suggested to me privately the
possibility that Elizabeth de Holand obtained her surname from the
locality of Holand on the Continent. However, it is also possible
that she is identical with Elizabeth, wife of Robert de Holand, Knt.,
2nd Lord Holand, of Thorpe Waterville, co. Northampton. Elizabeth,
wife of Lord Holand, was married before 1343 and was evidently living
at the time King Edward III made the grant to his wife's bastard
sister. It is rather unusual that Lord Holand's wife's surname is not
known, as in the normal scheme of things, his wife should have derived
from one of England's better families and would be well documented in
the records. If Lord Holand's wife was foreign born, however, it
would explain her failure to appear as a daughter among the records of
contemporary families of baronial rank.
Robert de Holand, 2nd Lord Holand, and his wife, Elizabeth, had four
identifiable sons, Robert, Thomas, Gilbert (clerk), and John, as well
as one probable daughter, Margaret, wife of Marmaduke de Lumley. My
research shows that on Marmaduke de Lumley's death, Queen Philippe
acquired the marriage of his son and heir. If Marmaduke de Lumley's
wife, Margaret, was Queen Philippe's niece, then it would explain
Queen Philippe's interest in the Lumley family.
Perhaps Bert could comment on the likelihood that Queen Philippe's
bastard sister was known as "de Holand" due to her father being Count
of Hainault and Holand. Also, I'm aware that Queen Philippe had
several illegitimate brothers which appear in Hainault records.
Perhaps Bert could list them for us. Several American immigrants
descend from Elizabeth, wife of Lord Holand. So, if this matter
could be resolved, it might open up much new ancestry for many people
here on the newsgroup.
Beyond Queen Philippe's sister, Elizabeth de Holand, it appears Queen
Philippe also had another kinswoman with her in England who married a
member of the Louth family of Huntingdonshire. However, unlike the
exact reference to Elizabeth de Holand, it is unclear how the Louth
woman was related to Queen Philippe. More than likely one could
identity the Louth woman by examining the names of Queen Philippe's
damsels, as the Louth woman was presumably brought to England as a
damsel to Queen Philippe. I know of one American immigrant who
descends from the Louth family.
Lastly, sometime ago, a thread was generated regarding people's
favorite Queen in English history. My vote goes to Queen Philippe of
Hainault. She was the epitome of all that embodies a woman of state,
family, and virtue.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Leo van de Pas
This is a fascinating subject. First, I doubt that Elizabeth de Holand
obtained her name from the continent. The name of the county is Holland not
Holand. I think you are correct in assuming her to be the wife of Robert de
Holand and that is how she obtained that surname.
I hope Bert Kamp can add more to this, but in Dr. A.W.E. Dek's book on the
Counts of Holland is a list with the bastard children of
William III, Count of Holland and Hainault, but there are 6 illegitimate
sons are mentioned and only 1 daughter, it must be quite possible that
Elis(z)abeth has been overlooked.
William III was born about 1286 and died in 1337. None of his illegitimate
children are recorded with a date of approximate birth and therefor it is
impossible to see where Elizabeth would fit in.
Queen Philippa married in 1328, she could have had her illegitimate
half-sister in attendance. Robert de Holand, if I read CP correctly,
was born in 1312 (aged 16 in 1328 when his father died) and seems to be the
right age to marry this Elizabeth.
I think it would be great if you can establish this link.
Best wishes and success.
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.
I have a related question for you. Some sources give the surname
"Avesnes" to the Counts of Hainault. As best as I can tell, however,
Queen Philippe's father was known simply as William, Count of
Hainault, Holland, and Zeeland, and lord of Friesland. Do you know if
Count William or his children used the surname, Avesnes?
As for Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand, he seems to have led a
quiet life and made little impact on the records of the time. This is
in sharp contrast to his younger brother, Thomas de Holand, Earl of
Kent, who was a famous warrior in the time period, and one of the
founders of the Knights of the Garter. Also, I find no record in
which either Robert de Holand, his wife, Elizabeth, or their
descendants were styled kinfolk by King Edward III or any successive
king, saving the one reference I have already cited. Consequently,
proving that Robert de Holand's wife, Elizabeth, is identifical with
Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe, might well be a
difficult task.
As for Robert de Holand's eldest son, Robert, I find that he served in
the retinue of the King and Prince Edward in the campaign of 1346-47.
In 1347 the abbot of Furnes complained he violated the abbot's
liberties in Lonsdale Hundred, co. Lancaster. He married in or before
1355 (date of settlement) Alice de Lisle, daughter of John de Lisle
(presumably 2nd Lord Lisle of Rougemont). They had one daughter and
heiress, Maud. He was living 10 May 1367, and died sometime before 16
Mar. 1372/3. His widow, Alice, married (2nd) before 1372/3 (date of
settlement) (as his 2nd wife) Edmund de Hemegrave, Knt., of Hengrave,
Little Wratting, Mutford, Westley, etc., Suffolk and Fordham, co.
Cambridge, son and heir of Thomas de Hemegrave, Knt., by his 1st wife,
Isabel. He was born about 1321 (aged 28 in 1349). They had no issue.
Sir Edmund de Hemegrave died testate 4 Feb. 1379. His widow, Alice,
married (3rd) Richard Wychingham, of Wychingham, Norfolk. They had no
issue. She left a will dated 12 Aug. 1401, proved 19 Jan. 1401/2.
The following sources pertain to Robert de Holand, the younger, and
his wife, Alice de Lisle:
Blomefield 4: 88. Suckling, pg. 271. J. Gage, Hist. & Antiq. of
Hengrave in Suffolk (1822), pp. 81-94. Calendar of Patent Rolls,
1364-1367 (1912), pg. 393. VCH Lancaster 8 (1914): 2,139. Complete
Peerage 6 (1926): 532. G. Paget, Baronage of England (1957) 289: 1.
List of Inq. ad Quod Damnum 2 (PRO, Lists and Indexes, No. 22) (repr.
1963): 580,593.
Alice de Lisle's identity, parentage, and successive marriages are not
mentioned in Complete Peerage. So, this is yet another addition for
Complete Peerage for Chris Phillips' website.
For interest sake, the following colonial immigrants descend from
Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand (died 1373), and his wife,
Elizabeth, possible bastard sister of Queen Philippe:
1. Essex Beville.
2. Charles Calvert.
3. Mary Launce (two descents).
4. Thomas Lunsford.
5. Herbert Pelham.
6. William Poole.
7. Maria Johanna Somerset.
Likewise, the following colonial immigrants descend from Margaret de
Holand, wife of Marmaduke de Lumley, who is likely the daughter of
Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand.
1. Charles Calvert.
2. John Fenwick.
3. William Poole.
4. Richard Saltonstall.
5. Maria Johanna Somerset.
6. Olive Welby.
7. Thomas Wingfield.
Information on the specific descents down to the individual colonists
will be found in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet Ancestry, soon to
be released. The book is still available for a short time at a
special prepublication price for newsgroup members. Please contact me
at my e-mail address below for details on ordering the book.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
leov...@bigpond.com ("Leo van de Pas") wrote in message news:<03a701c272b1$67c46fe0$9963fea9@old>...
Leo van de Pas
Avesnes was their family name. Bouchard d'Avesnes, while a priest, married
Margaretha Countess of Flanders and Hainault. They had children, then
Margaretha had the marriage annulled and Bouchard was put under a papal ban
and the pope declared their children illegitimate. Then Emperor Friedrich II
declared them to be legitimate. Margaretha had remarried and had more
children. Hainault's heir was Jan d'Avesnes, Margaretha's son by Bouchard
but Flanders went to Margaretha's Dampierre children.
Jan d'Avesnes was only Regent of Hainault and he died before his mother. Jan
had married Aleida of Holland and she became subsequent sole heir of that
county. Jan and Aleida's son became Jan II, Count of Hainault 1280-1304 and
Count of Holland 1299-1304. He was the father of William III.
I should not manipulate historical traditions but Holland was the more
important county and, in my opinion (which does not count) Philippa should
have been known as Philippa of Holland (and Hainault) .
As they were known by the county they ruled, the name Avesnes was no longer
used. What I found strange was that the illegitimate sons of William III
were all known differently:
Jan van de Poel
Jan Aelman
Claas van de Gheijjan van Dolre
Willem (no additional name)
Jan Zuurmond.
Hope this helps a little?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Hainault
> Dear Leo ~
>
> Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.
>
<snip>
> For interest sake, the following colonial immigrants descend from
> Robert de Holand, Knt., 2nd Lord Holand (died 1373), and his wife,
> Elizabeth, possible bastard sister of Queen Philippe:
>
> 1. Essex Beville.
> 2. Charles Calvert.
> 3. Mary Launce (two descents).
> 4. Thomas Lunsford.
> 5. Herbert Pelham.
> 6. William Poole.
> 7. Maria Johanna Somerset.
>
Still, this is not their only "claim to fame" they are also ancestors of The
Late Queen Mother, Lady Diana Spencer, Sarah Ferguson, Aga Khan IV and Tim
Powys-Lybbe.
I do hope you find proof for this Elizabeth de Holand being Queen Philippa's
half-sister as this would add many ancestors to Prince William of Wales but
also to those of Americans descending from this Elizabeth.
Best wishes and success.
Leo van de PAS
Leo van de Pas
"Her surname is known from the arms on her seal, tricked in Harl. MS. 1985, f. 87 d.
If Elizabeth is a half-sister of Queen Philippa, she is also a half-sister of Margaret, in her own right Countess of Holland, Hainault and Zeeland, and also wife of Emperor Ludwig IV.
This Margaret de Holand is the second wife of Marmaduke de Lumley.
Marmaduke was born 4 September 1314. His first wife (name not known) died in 1343. Marmaduke died in 1365, and his son and heir,
Robert de Lumley, was said to have been 11 when Marmaduke died,
makes him born about 1354, which would make his Holand grandfather, if it is the 2nd Baron (born 1312), a grandfather at 42.
This may indicate that Marmaduke was possible a long time between marriages, and was 2 years younger than his second father-in-law.
----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas Richardson
To: leov...@bigpond.com
Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe of Hainault
Dear Leo ~
Margaret (de Holand) de Lumley is specically called a Holand in a monumental inscription of some sort which was prepared by a grandson or great grandson. This confirms the information from her seal which Complete Peerage cited. The source for the monumental inscription is Surtees' History of Durham, which I have seen.
The most likely place for Margaret in the baronial Holand family would be as the daughter of Robert, 2nd Lord Holand. Her relationship to the baronial Holand family must have been close, as I find that Margaret's son was subsequently involved in an uprising with John Holand, Duke of Exeter, which individual was Robert, 2nd Lord Holand's nephew.
DR
======My knowledge about "gateway" descendants into the USA is not very good, but I found the following descendants of Margaret de Holand:
George Clinton, 1739-1812 Vice-President of the USA
Sir Robert Eden, 1st Bart, 1741-1784 Governor of Maryland
HM the late Queen Mother
Sarah Ferguson
Lady Diana Spencer
Camilla Parker-Bowles
the Aga Khan IV
Sir Winston Churchill
Acress Rachel Ward
George Herbert, 5th Earl of Carnarvon, discoveror of Tut-Ankh-Amen
Lady Antonia Fraser
and most the present day Dukes of Great Britain.
Douglas Richardson
> Douglas Richardson pointed out that Robert, 2nd Lord Holand and his wife >Elizabeth most likely also had a daughter, Margaret de Holand. That Margaret >was a de Holand is shown in CP VIII page 268 in a footnote:
> "Her surname is known from the arms on her seal, tricked in Harl. MS. 1985, >f. 87 d.
>
>
> Leo van de Pas
Dear Leo ~
If my memory serves me correctly, Margaret, wife of Marmaduke de
Lumley, is specifically called "daughter of .... Holand" in a Durham
monumental inscription erected by her grandson or great-grandson. A
transcript of the inscription (which I have seen) is found in Robert
Surtees' multi-volume work, History and Antiquities of the County
Palatine of Durham, published 1816-1840. So there is additional
evidence of Margaret's surname, beyond the coat of arms found on her
seal which is cited by Complete Peerage.
As for the inscription itself, its wording would suggest that Margaret
de Holand was not an heiress, otherwise that fact would surely have
been stated by her descendant. Not being an heiress would be
consistent with Margaret being the daughter of Robert de Holand, Knt.,
2nd Lord Holand, which individual is known to have had four sons, two
of whom left issue.
B.M. Kamp
Subject: Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen
Philippe of Hainault
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Bert Kamp's recent post on the birth order of Queen Philippe of
> Hainault (wife of King Edward III) and her sisters brought to mind
> another question related to the comital Hainault family.
>
> In the course of my research for the forthcoming Plantagenet Ancestry
> book, I've encountered a grant dated 1367 whereby King Edward III of
> England, at the instance of his wife, Philippe, granted to her bastard
> sister, Elizabeth de Holand, twenty pounds of money annually at the
> Exchequer [Reference: Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1367-1370 (published
> 1913), pg.].
I do not have the Calendar of Patent Rolls on my book shelves. Does it
say explicitly that this Elizabeth was a bastard sister of Queen
Philippa?
To my knowledge, this sister of Queen Philippe is
> unknown in Hainault records and no one has attempted to identity her
> in English records either.
>
> Inasmuch as Queen Philippe's father, William, was Count of Hainault
> and Holand, Brice Clagett has suggested to me privately the
> possibility that Elizabeth de Holand obtained her surname from the
> locality of Holand on the Continent.
I would hesitate to call the county of Holland a locality.
However, it is also possible
> that she is identical with Elizabeth, wife of Robert de Holand, Knt.,
> 2nd Lord Holand, of Thorpe Waterville, co. Northampton. Elizabeth,
> wife of Lord Holand, was married before 1343 and was evidently living
> at the time King Edward III made the grant to his wife's bastard
> sister. It is rather unusual that Lord Holand's wife's surname is not
> known, as in the normal scheme of things, his wife should have derived
> from one of England's better families and would be well documented in
> the records. If Lord Holand's wife was foreign born, however, it
> would explain her failure to appear as a daughter among the records of
> contemporary families of baronial rank.
>
> Robert de Holand, 2nd Lord Holand, and his wife, Elizabeth, had four
> identifiable sons, Robert, Thomas, Gilbert (clerk), and John, as well
> as one probable daughter, Margaret, wife of Marmaduke de Lumley. My
> research shows that on Marmaduke de Lumley's death, Queen Philippe
> acquired the marriage of his son and heir. If Marmaduke de Lumley's
> wife, Margaret, was Queen Philippe's niece, then it would explain
> Queen Philippe's interest in the Lumley family.
>
> Perhaps Bert could comment on the likelihood that Queen Philippe's
> bastard sister was known as "de Holand" due to her father being Count
> of Hainault and Holand.
A bastard daughter of Count Floris V of Holland, murdered 1296, is
now generally referred to as Catharina of Holland, but I do not dare to
say wheher or not she was known as such during her lifetime.
Also, I'm aware that Queen Philippe had
> several illegitimate brothers which appear in Hainault records.
> Perhaps Bert could list them for us.
A.W.E. Dek lists the following bastards in his Genealogie der Graven
van Holland (first edition 1954, I do not have the later editions at
home):
Jan van de Poel, mentioned 1330-1392
Jan Aelman, mentioned 1339, burried valenciennes 16 Dec 1389
Claas van de Gheine, died before 1352
Jan van Dolre
Willem (mentioned 1339)
Jan Zuurmond, who died after 18 April 1385,
Aleide (mentioned as nun 1332)
As Leo van de Pas said, it seems not unlikely that there might have
been other bastard-daughters..
It seems very remakable that a bastard of Holland should have married
a Holand.
Several American immigrants
> descend from Elizabeth, wife of Lord Holand. So, if this matter
> could be resolved, it might open up much new ancestry for many people
> here on the newsgroup.
>
> Beyond Queen Philippe's sister, Elizabeth de Holand, it appears Queen
> Philippe also had another kinswoman with her in England who married a
> member of the Louth family of Huntingdonshire. However, unlike the
> exact reference to Elizabeth de Holand, it is unclear how the Louth
> woman was related to Queen Philippe. More than likely one could
> identity the Louth woman by examining the names of Queen Philippe's
> damsels, as the Louth woman was presumably brought to England as a
> damsel to Queen Philippe. I know of one American immigrant who
> descends from the Louth family.
>
> Lastly, sometime ago, a thread was generated regarding people's
> favorite Queen in English history. My vote goes to Queen Philippe of
> Hainault. She was the epitome of all that embodies a woman of state,
> family, and virtue.
Regards,
Bert M. Kamp
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your good post. I very much appreciate your and Leo's
comments.
In answer to your question, yes, the Patent Roll item I cited
specifically calls Elizabeth de Holand the bastard sister of Queen
Philippe of Hainault.
As for the "surname" of Queen Philippe, I see from a post of this week
elsewhere here on the newsgroup that Froissart (a contemporary of
Queen Philippe's) referred to the Queen when she was an unmarried
maiden as "Philippe de Hainault."
If the queen's bastard sister, Elizabeth, used the same style "de
Hainault" when unmarried, then presumably "de Holand" was her married
name. At this point, however, it is only conjecture what surname the
bastard sister of the queen might have employed prior to marriage.
Perhaps contemporary records (such as Froissart) might give us a
better idea as to whether or not "de Holand" may have been the bastard
sister's married or maiden name. This matter deserves further study.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
bmk...@wanadoo.nl ("B.M. Kamp") wrote in message news:<3DADD7EB.14179.4F6B0@localhost>...
Patricia Junkin
"By 1377 or after a Robert Beche married a daughter of Robert Holand of
Calais." I believe this Robert Beche to be of the Aldsworth de la Beche
family and possibly a grandson of Philip who m. Joan la Zouche.
Thank you in advance.
Pat
----------
>From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson)
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: Elizabeth de Holand, bastard sister of Queen Philippe of Hainault
>Date: Thu, Oct 17, 2002, 3:54 AM