Lines from Theuderic Makir? Any reliable written material ?
Kelly Paul Graham
Hello all :) A query..
I have found quite a few internet-sources that link the line pf the
Edwards (Plantagenet) to
Theuderic Makir, the Exilarch Duke (Dux?) of Toulouse (born, 730 - died,
793). The lines in
question fun through a supposed-daughter, Redbughe, through the Kings of
Wessex to
Malcolme Canmore, from Redburghe to Geoffroy 1 "Grisegonnelle" of Anjou to
the
Plantagenets, themselves, and- lastly, through the line of Raimond-Berenger
of Barcalona!
However, since these links seem to offer no literary-evidence to back up
their statements-
I am forced to treat this as hearsay!
Is they any written, researched history into these claims? Would there
have been reasons
for contacts for families between the western Mediterranian and Britian for-
maybe- extended-
periods ?
Kelly Paul Graham
Tim Robb
"Makir" bloke before, some kind of jewish prince, but in Narbonne. Not
very convincing. Anyway, in what concerns Redburgh, the wife of Egbert,
king of Wessex: all we know of her is that she was the _sororia_ (=
sister-in-law) of the king of Franks, presumably Charlemagne. The
source of this information is given by C. Settipani (La Préhistoire des
Capétiens, première partie, p. 308, n. 791) as a "late Oxford
manuscript", which means it may not even be reliable.
To sum up, we don't know who Redburgh's father was, and we cannot even
be certain of her name... So treat the rest of the info with suspicion.
To answer your question concerning links between families across
Europe, there are in fact numerous examples of marriages between nobles
of altogether different parts of Europe throughout the Middle Ages.
Edward III of England (1312-1377) has, among his 16
great-great-grandparents, apart from the French and the English, people
from Provence, Savoy, Castile, Leon, Aragon, Hungary, Brabant. The
further we go back, the wider the area covered by his ancestors. And
that applies to many medieval nobles. The reasons are very simply
political.
Edward III is descended from Egbert (and supposedly his wife Redburgh)
in a number of ways. Egbert's male-line descendant, st Margaret (c.
1045-1093) did indeed marry Malcolm III Canmore, king of Scotland,
whose daughter Matilda was Edward's ancestor.
I don't see how either Geoffroy I Grisegonelle (d. 987), count of
Anjou, and Ramón Berenguer IV (1113-1162), count of Barcelona , could
descend from Egbert. As the author was quite prompt in making Redburgh
the daughter of Theoderich "Makir", I very much doubt the veracity of
this information. However, both were indeed ancestors of Edward III.
Regards,
Tim Robb
Antibes, France
Todd A. Farmerie
> Hello all :) A query..
>
> I have found quite a few internet-sources that link the line pf the
> Edwards (Plantagenet) to
> Theuderic Makir, the Exilarch Duke (Dux?) of Toulouse (born, 730 - died,
> 793). The lines in
> question fun through a supposed-daughter, Redbughe, through the Kings of
> Wessex to
> Malcolme Canmore, from Redburghe to Geoffroy 1 "Grisegonnelle" of Anjou to
> the
> Plantagenets, themselves, and- lastly, through the line of Raimond-Berenger
> of Barcalona!
First of all, there is no Theuderic Makir. There was Theoderic,
Dux of Toulouse, and there was a Makir, Exilarch. They were
hypothesized to have been the same person by one author, but that
this thesis was flawed has been adequately demonstrated by
Nathaniel Taylor in The American Genealogist.
There are numerous hypothesized descents from Theoderic. The
Counts of Toulouse almost certainly descend from them. The
second family of the Counts of Aquitaine perhaps descend from
him. The Counts of Provence possibly descend from him. However,
I don't recall having seen Redburgh placed in this family, nor is
there any evidence that allows her to be placed - everything is a
guess. As to Geoffrey Grisgonnelle and Raymond Berenger of
Barcelona, I don't think either descends from Redburgh, but would
have to see the lines in question.
taf
Shawn Potter
Kelly,
Some suggest Theuderic's son-in-law was Egbert, Duke of Saxony, rather
than Egbert, King of England. If so, Edward III, King of England, may
descend from Theuderic as listed below.
Shawn
Theuderic (Makhir?), Count of Narbonne = Alda (sister of Pepin)
Saint Ida = Egbert, Duke of Saxony [Settipani; Kelley, p. 5]
Cobbo, Duke of Saxony = Addila of Herford [Settipani]
Ludolph, Duke of Saxony = Oda of Thuringia [Settipani; Weis, p. 123]
Otto, Duke of Saxony = Hedwig of Bavaria [Weis, p. 123]
Henry I, Holy Roman Emperor = Mechtilde of Ringelheim [Weis, p. 123]
Hedwig of Saxony = Hugh Magnus, King of France [Weis, pp. 97, 123]
Hugh Capet, King of France = Adelaide of Poitou [Weis, p. 97]
Robert II, King of France = Constance of Provence [Weis, pp. 97]
Henry I, King of France = Anna of Kievan Rus [Weis, p. 97]
Philip I, King of France = Bertha of Holland [Weis, p. 97]
Louis VI, King of France = Adelaide of Maurienne [Weis, p. 97]
Louis VII, King of France = Adelaide of Blois [Weis, p. 97]
Philip II, King of France = Isabella of Hainault [Weis, p. 97]
Louis VIII, King of France = Blanca of Castile [Weis, p. 97]
Louis IX, King of France = Marguerite of Provence [Weis, p. 97]
Philip III, King of France = Isabella of Aragon [Weis, pp. 97-98]
Philip IV, King of France = Jeanne of Navarre [Weis, p. 98]
Isabella of France = Edward II, King of England [Weis, pp. 3, 98]
Edward III, King of England = Philippa of Hainaut [Weis, p. 3]
Sources:
Kelley = Kelley, David H., "Who Descends from King David?" Toledot:
The Journal of Jewish Genealogy, (NY, Winter 1977-1978)
Settipani = Settipani, Christian, December 5, 1988, Note on
soc.genealogy.medieval bulletin board
Weis = Weis, Frederick Lewis, "Ancestral Roots of Certain American
Colonists Who Came to America before 1700," (Baltimore: Genealogical
Publishing Co., Inc., 1992, seventh edition)