Ancestry of Baldwin I of Flanders
Seth
Charlemagne, *Ingelheim 2.4.742, +Aachen 28.1.814, King of Franks
(754-814), King of Lombards (774-814), Holy Roman Emperor (800-814)
-cr Aachen 25.12.800;
father of:
Charles, King of East Franks, *Aachen 772, +Aachen 4.12.811; father
of:
Ingelram/Rowland, Governor of Flanders, possible ancestor of Counts of
Flanders, father of:
Ct Odoscer (Odacre) of Harlebek, Governor of Flanders (possibly son of
Ingelram/Rowland, Gov of Flanders), had a son:
Ct Baldwin I of Flanders (862-879), *ca 837/840, +Auxerre 879;
m.Auxerre 13.12.862 Judith (*844, +after 870), dau.of the Emperor
Charles II
Is this genealogy based on fact? Any comments??
Todd A. Farmerie
It is completely bogus. Baldwin is claimed to be son of Odoacer,
who in turn at least one author has made son of Ingelram,
(without good evidence, but in equating Ingelram with the heroic
Roland, your source goes off the deep end. (Roland, by the way,
was not grandson of Charlemagne - Charlemagne's son Charles
having no such son.)
taf
Stewart, Peter
> From: S4PRe...@aol.com [mailto:S4PRe...@aol.com]
> Sent: Monday, 20 January 2003 8:45
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Ancestry of Baldwin I of Flanders
>
>
> I was recently at a genealogy website and I found this lineage
>
> Charlemagne, *Ingelheim 2.4.742, +Aachen 28.1.814, King of Franks
> (754-814), King of Lombards (774-814), Holy Roman Emperor (800-814)
> -cr Aachen 25.12.800;
> father of:
>
> Charles, King of East Franks, *Aachen 772, +Aachen 4.12.811; father
> of:
>
> Ingelram/Rowland, Governor of Flanders, possible ancestor of Counts of
> Flanders, father of:
>
> Ct Odoscer (Odacre) of Harlebek, Governor of Flanders (possibly son of
> Ingelram/Rowland, Gov of Flanders), had a son:
>
> Ct Baldwin I of Flanders (862-879), *ca 837/840, +Auxerre 879;
> m.Auxerre 13.12.862 Judith (*844, +after 870), dau.of the Emperor
> Charles II
>
>
> Is this genealogy based on fact? Any comments??
No, it's worthless.
We have an account that Balduin I's father was a count named Audacer (or
Odoacre), but no proof at all that this man ruled what came to be called
Flanders. Any ancestry for him is fanciful.
Charlemagne's son Charles who was born ca 772 and died (in Bavaria, not at
Aachen) on 4 December 811 had no known offspring. "Ingelram/Rowland" is
fictitious.
Peter Stewart
D.C.Meister
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: S4PRe...@aol.com [mailto:S4PRe...@aol.com]
>>Sent: Monday, 20 January 2003 8:45
>>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Subject: Ancestry of Baldwin I of Flanders
>>
>>
>>I was recently at a genealogy website and I found this lineage
>>
>>Charlemagne, *Ingelheim 2.4.742, +Aachen 28.1.814, King of Franks
>>(754-814), King of Lombards (774-814), Holy Roman Emperor (800-814)
>>-cr Aachen 25.12.800;
>>father of:
>>
>>Charles, King of East Franks, *Aachen 772, +Aachen 4.12.811; father
>>of:
>>
>>Ingelram/Rowland, Governor of Flanders, possible ancestor of Counts of
>>Flanders, father of:
>>
>>Ct Odoscer (Odacre) of Harlebek, Governor of Flanders (possibly son of
>>Ingelram/Rowland, Gov of Flanders), had a son:
>>
>>Ct Baldwin I of Flanders (862-879), *ca 837/840, +Auxerre 879;
>>m.Auxerre 13.12.862 Judith (*844, +after 870), dau.of the Emperor
>>Charles II
>>
>>
>>Is this genealogy based on fact? Any comments??
>
>
> No, it's worthless.
>
> We have an account that Balduin I's father was a count named Audacer (or
> Odoacre), but no proof at all that this man ruled what came to be called
> Flanders. Any ancestry for him is fanciful.
Is nothing more known about this Odacre or his ancestry? A little bit
later there was a same named man (+901/2), the father of Wigericus. And
the name Odacre/Audachar seems to point to the Unruoching family
(K.F.Werner, Bedeutende Adelsfamilien im Reich Karls des Großen).
Detlef
Douglas Richardson
Dear Todd ~
Can you post any references which discuss this problem or which set
out the correct lineage?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Stewart Baldwin
Richardson) wrote:
>"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message news:<3E2B3E53...@interfold.com>...
[snip]
>> It is completely bogus. Baldwin is claimed to be son of Odoacer,
>> who in turn at least one author has made son of Ingelram,
>> (without good evidence, but in equating Ingelram with the heroic
>> Roland, your source goes off the deep end. (Roland, by the way,
>> was not grandson of Charlemagne - Charlemagne's son Charles
>> having no such son.)
>Can you post any references which discuss this problem or which set
>out the correct lineage?
Unless you wish to take the word of genealogies evidently compiled a
couple of centuries after the fact, the parentage of Baldwin I of
Flanders is apparently unknown. Witger's genealogy of count Arnulf,
an early genealogy of the counts of Flanders written in the middle of
the tenth century [MGH SS 5, 302-4], has much to say about the
Carolingian ancestry of the counts of Flanders (starting with
Ansbertus, alleged grandfather of Charlemagne's ancestor Arnulf,
bishop of Metz), but does not give the parentage of Baldwin I. To my
knowledge, the genealogy back to the legendary "Lideric" first appears
in the twelfth century "Genealogia Comitum Flandriae Bertiniana"
[ibid., 305-80, which begins with the statement that count Lidricus of
Harlebeck begat Ingelrannus, who begat Audacer, who begat Balduinus
Ferreus, who married Judith, daughter of Karolus Calvus (Charles the
Bald). The genealogy appears to go back at least in part to the late
eleventh century, the evident date of compilation of the early entries
of Annales Blandinienses, which contain the following three entries
[ibid., 23-4]:
836. Lidricus comes obiit et Arlabeka sepelitur.
856. Herebertus tradidit sancto Petro res suas in Berenga, sub
Inghelramno abbate vel comite.
862. Iudith secuta est Baldwinum Ferreum, filium Audacri.
This source makes Baldwin a son of Audacer, but does not explicitly
state the links between the other generations, although Lideric and
Ingelram do appear. To my knowledge, contemporary evidence for the
existence of Lideric and Audacer is absent. I have seen it suggested
that Ingelram was the count Engilramnus who appears in the Annals of
Fulda under the year 864 [MGH SS 1, 378], but I do not know what
evidence would connect this Engilramnus to Flanders. It has also been
suggested (reason also unknown to me) that "Audacer" was just a
nickname of Baldwin I and that Baldwin was in fact a son of Ingelram.
Perhaps this is just an attempt to "fix" the tight chronology that is
evident from Annales Blandinienses.
As for the silliness that would change Ingelram's name to Roland and
make him a grandson of Charlemagne (through Charles Jr. no less!), I
can only assume that this is some sort of recent "scholarship" (in the
most generous interpretation of that word).
Stewart Baldwin
p j evans
From: sba...@mindspring.com (Stewart Baldwin)
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Baldwin I of Flanders
On 20 Jan 2003 08:21:33 -0800, royala...@msn.com (Douglas
Richardson) wrote:
>"Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com> wrote in message
news:<3E2B3E53...@interfold.com>...
[snip]
Not so recent as all that - Turton has this same version, although he stops
with Lyderic.