William V of Montpellier and Ermessenda of Melgueil

[Jan Wolfe]

According to Wikipedia:

The mother of William V of Montpellier was Ermengarde of Melgueil, daughter of Raymond I, Count of Melgueil.

William V of Montpellier married Ermensenda, daughter of Peter, Count of Melgueil (modern name Mauguio).

Peter, Count of Melgueil, was the son of Raymond I, Count of Melgueil.

This appears to imply that William V and his wife were 1st cousins. Is this information correct?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_IV_of_Montpellier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_V_of_Montpellier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Melgueil

[Peter Stewart]

The mother of William V was named Ermengarde, but her family origin is
unknown.

Peter, count of Melgueil, promised his daughter to William V as part of
a conflict settlement between them, and it is supposed from this
(without definite proof) that William's wife Ermensenda would have been
this daughter.

I'm not sure where the mistaken speculation that Ermengarde was a
paternal aunt of Ermensenda came from - I will post again if I can find
this in print.

Peter Stewart

[Jan Wolfe]

Thank you, Peter.

[Peter Stewart]

It looks to me as if neither Ermengarde or Ermensenda can have belonged
to the comital family of Melgueil - Ermensenda's husband Guillaume V of
Montpellier married his daughter Guilelma to Bernard IV of Melgueil, a
grandson of Pierre. Consequently, if Ermensenda had been the daughter of
Pierre in question, a first-cousin marriage would have taken place in
the early-12th century, which is beyond implausible.

At the time Pierre of Melgueil settled his dispute with Guillaume V of
Montpellier the latter was apparently still very young - Pierre died in
the late 1080s and (according to Claudie Duhamel-Amado) Guillaume V was
born in 1073 or 1074. Given this, it seems likely that a marriage
between Pierre's daughter and Guillaume did not last long and that in
any event she was not Ermensenda, who outlived him and was the mother of
his children including Guilelma married in 1120 to Bernard of Melgueil.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

FWIW (not necessarily very much) ESNF 3:445 (sub Montpellier) identifies Ermengarde and Ermensende as Jan has indicated above. Its sources appear to be the following (neither of which is known to me):
1) Liber instrumentorum memorialium, in Cartulaire des Guillems de Montpellier, Montpellier 1884/86.
2) J. Rouquette et A. Vilelmagne, Cartualire de Maguelone I-II, Montpellier 1912/14

Perhaps one or the other of these sources is "where the mistaken speculation that Ermengarde was a paternal aunt of Ermensenda came from".

Interestingly, the Medlands section on the Montpellier family dismisses ESNF's statements, indicating that no primary source has been located which identifies the family origin of either of the two ladies.
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/TOULOUSE%20NOBILITY.htm#_Toc496685206

[John Higgins]

spelling correction above: Vilelmagne should be Villemagne.

[Peter Stewart]

For once Medlands is right, sort of... Accidents happen. Maybe the
malignant jackass in the White House will stumble into one soon and do
right by the US people for a change.

The erroneous identification of Ermesenda as the daughter of Pierre of
Melgueil married in the 1080s to Guillaume V appears to be a misplaced
Occam's-razor assumption, based on a primary source (the dispute
resolution I mentioned before). There are no doubt many other similar
mistakes embedded in the woodwork of medieval genealogy.

The cartularies of Montpellier and Maguelone are not sources for these
curious misidentifications - both ladies occur in charters only by given
name as the mothers of their respective sons.

A solution to the cousin-marriage scenario for Guilelma the daughter of
Ermesenda with Bernard of Melgueil was canvassed in *Histoire générale
de Languedoc*, but unfortunately with the result of introducing new errors.

The only rational solution I can see is that Ermengarde and Ermesenda
were not from the Melgueil family at all, while Guillaume V of
Montpellier was married first to a daughter Pierre of Melgueil (given
name unknown) and then to Ermesenda who became his widow, the mother of
all his recorded children.

Peter Stewart

[John Higgins]

I can't resist - I have to comment that "the only rational solution" in this case is the one proposed by Medlands. But, as you note, accidents can happen. :-)

[Warning - OT]

But I'm far less confident that the idiot in the White House will make a rational decision any time soon. Sad....

[Peter Stewart]

Rationality is not the problem with Medlands so much as competence.
Where there is only one solution I don't put it past Charles Cawley to
hit upon it, but where there may be two or more all bets are off.

The problems in the White House run deeper, within the shallows of the
president's mind anyway. In a singularly unproductive and unreflective
life, the sole Trumpian output is flagrant wrongness of head and heart.

Peter Stewart