Ancestors of Elizabeth Wentworth
scott_williams
See? Is she descended from Edward III, and if so, through how many ancestors?
Thanks.
Ashley
<<response>>
I have only one line of descent, as follows below. There may be more, but I don't have it yet.
First Generation
1. King of England Edward PLANTAGENET III.[1] Born on 13 Nov 1312 in Windsor Castle, Berkshire, England. Edward died in Sheen Palace, Richmond, co. Surrey, England on 21 Jun 1377, he was 64.[2] Buried in Westminster Abbey, England.
On 24 Jan 1327/28 when Edward was 14, he married Philippa DE HAINUT (HAINAULT), daughter of Count William (Guillame) DE HAINUT V (1280-7 Jun 1337) & Joan (Jeanne) DE VALOIS (-abt 1342), in York, England. Born on 24 Jun 1310 in Hainault, Belgium.[3],[4],[5] Philippa died in Windsor Castle, Berkshire, England on 15 Aug 1369, she was 59.[6] Buried in Westminster Abbey, England. They had the following children:
i. Edward[7]. Born on 15 Jun 1330 in Woodstock, England. Edward died in Westminster Palace, England on 8 Jun 1376, he was 45.[8] Buried in Canterbury Cathedral, Kent, England. Edward married Joan PLANTAGENET "Fair Maid of Kent", daughter of Earl of Kent Edmund PLANTAGENET of Woodstock (1301-abt 1330) & Margaret WAKE Baroness Wake (-29 Sep 1349). Born on 29 Sep 1328 in Woodstock, England. Joan died in Wallingford Castle, England on 8 Aug 1385, she was 56. Buried in Stamford, Lincolnshire, England.
ii. Isabel. Born on 16 Jun 1332.
iii. Thomas[7]. Born on 7 Jan 1335 in Woodstock, co. Oxford, England.[9] Thomas died in Calais, France in Sep 1397, he was 62.[8] Thomas married Eleanor DE BOHUN, daughter of Humphrey DE BOHUN VIII, Earl of Hereford (25 Mar 1342-16 Jan 1372) & Joan FITZALAN (-7 Apr 1419). Eleanor died in 1438.[10] Alias/AKA: Alianor.
iv. William. Born bef 16 Feb 1337. William died bef 8 Jul 1337.
2 v. Lionel (1338-1368)
vi. John[11]. Born in 1340 in St. Bavon, Ghent, Holland. John died in Raby Castle, England in 1399, he was 59.[7] On 19 May 1359 when John was 19, he first married Blanche of Lancaster, daughter of Henry Duke of Lancaster & Isabel, in Queen's Chapel, Reading, England.[12] Born in 1345. Blanche died in Bolingbroke Castle, Lincolnshire, England on 12 Sep 1369, she was 24. Buried in St Paul's Cathedral. On 13 Jan 1396 when John was 56, he second married Catherine ROET, daughter of Sir Payn DE ROET, in Lincolnshire, England. Born in 1350. Catherine died on 10 May 1043 in Lincolnshire, England.[11] Buried in Lincoln Cathedral, Lincolnshire, England. John third married Constance DE CASTILE, daughter of King Pedro DE CASTILE III, "The Cruel" (-1369) & Maria DE PADILLA, in Roquefort, Guienne, France. Born in Castro Kerez, Spain. Constance died on 24 Mar 1394 in Leicester, England. Buried in St Mary's Church, Leicester, England.
vii. Edmund. Born on 5 Jun 1341 in Langley, Hertshire, England.[13] Edmund died in King's Langley, Hertshire, England on 1 Aug 1402, he was 61. Edmund married Isabella DE CASTILE, daughter of King Pedro DE CASTILE III, "The Cruel" (-1369) & Maria DE PADILLA. Born in 1355 in Morsales, Spain. Isabella died in King's Langley, Hertshire, England on 23 Nov 1393, she was 38.[11]
viii. William. Born bef 24 Jun 1348. William died on 5 Sep 1348.
Second Generation
2. Lionel PLANTAGENET Duke of Clarence.[1] Born on 29 Nov 1338 in Antwerp, Belgium. Lionel died in Alba Piedmont, Italy on 17 Oct 1368, he was 29. Buried in Clare, co. Suffolk, England.
On 9 Sep 1342 when Lionel was 3, he first married Elizabeth DE BURGH, daughter of William DE BURGH 4th Earl of Ulster (17 Sep 1312-6 Jun 1333) & Maud PLANTAGENET (-5 May 1377), in Tower of London, England.[14],[15] Born on 6 Jul 1332 in Carrickfergus Castle, Ireland.[16] Elizabeth died in Dublin, Ireland on 10 Dec 1363, she was 31.[17] They had one child:
3 i. Phillippe (Philippa) (1355-1382)
On 28 May 1368 when Lionel was 29, he second married Violanta VISCONTI, daughter of Galeozzo VISCONTI II, Lord of Milan (1323-1378) & Bianca DE SAVOY, in Milan, Italy.[16] Violanta died in Nov 1386.[16]
Third Generation
3. Phillippe (Philippa) OF CLARENCE (PLANTAGENET) Countess of Ulster.[18] Born on 16 Aug 1355 in Eltham Palace, Kent, England. Phillippe (Philippa) died on 1 Jan 1382, she was 26. Buried in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England.
In May 1368 when Phillippe (Philippa) was 12, she married Edmund MORTIMER 3rd Earl of March, son of Sir Roger MORTIMER 2nd Earl of March (11 Nov 1328-26 Feb 1359) & Philppa MONTACUTE (MONTAGU) (abt 1332-5 Jan 1382), in Queen's Chapel, Reading Abbey, Berkshire, England. Born on 1 Feb 1351/52 in Bacon, Wales. Edmund died in Eltham Palace, Cork, Ireland on 27 Dec 1381, he was 30. Buried in Wigmore Abbey, co. Herefore, England.[16] They had the following children:
4 i. Elizabeth (1370-1417)
ii. Roger. Born on 11 Apr 1374 in Usk, Monmouthshire, Ireland. Roger died in Kenlis, Ireland on 20 Jul 1398, he was 24.[19] Buried in Wigmore, Herefordshire, England. Occupation: 7th Earl of Ulster, Lord lieutenant of Ireland. On 7 Oct 1388 when Roger was 14, he married Eleanor DE HOLAND, daughter of Thomas DE HOLAND 2nd Earl of Kent (abt 1350-25 Apr 1397) & Lady Alice FITZALAN of Arundel (1352-17 Mar 1415). Born ca 1373. Eleanor died on 18 Oct 1405, she was 32.
iii. Philippa. Born on 21 Nov 1375 in Ludlow Castle, Shropshire, England. Philippa died in Halmaker, Sussex, England on 24 Sep 1401, she was 25. Buried in Boxgrove Priory, Lewes, Sussex, England. Philippa first married John HASTINGS 13th Earl of Pembroke. John died on 30 Dec 1389. Philippa second married Sir Richard FITZALAN 4th Earl of Arundel, son of Sir Richard FITZALAN 3rd Earl of Arundel (abt 1313-24 Jan 1374) & Eleanor PLANTAGENET of Lancaster (abt 1318-11 Jan 1371). Born in 1346 in Arundel, Sussex, England. Richard died in Cheapside, London, England on 21 Sep 1397, he was 51. [11],[20],[21] Occupation: 4th Earl of Arundel, 10th Earl of Surrey.[21] Philippa third married Thomas POYNINGS 5th Lord of Basing.
iv. Edmund. Born on 9 Nov 1376 in Ludlow Castle, Shropshire, England. Edmund died in Harlech Castle, Wales in 1409, he was 32. In Nov 1402 when Edmund was 25, he married Katherine.
v. John. John died in 1424.
Fourth Generation
4. Elizabeth MORTIMER.[22] Born on 12 Feb 1370 in Monmouth, England. Elizabeth died on 20 Apr 1417, she was 47. Buried in Trotton, Sussex, England.
bef 10 Dec 1379 when Elizabeth was 9, she first married Sir Henry PERCY "Harry Hotspur", son of Marshall of England Henry PERCY Earl of Northumberland (10 Nov 1341-19 Feb 1407) & Margaret NEVILLE (-May 1372).[23] Born on 20 May 1364. Henry died in Shrewsbury, England on 21 Jul 1403, he was 39.[24] Buried in Whitchurch. They had the following children:
5 i. Elizabeth (-1437)
ii. Henry. Born on 3 Feb 1393.[25] Henry died in in Battle of St. Albans, Hertfordshire, England on 22 May 1455, he was 62. Occupation: K.G., 2nd Earl of Northumberland, Warden of the Marches of Scotland. In Oct 1414 when Henry was 21, he married Eleanor NEVILLE, daughter of Sir Ralph DE NEVILLE 1st Earl of Westmorland (1363-21 Oct 1425) & Joan BEAUFORT (1379-13 Nov 1440), in Berwick, England. Born abt 1400. Eleanor died in 1463, she was 63.[25]
iii. Matilda.
Elizabeth second married Thomas DE CAMOYS 1st Lord Camoys, son of John DE CAMOYS & Elizabeth. They had one child:
i. Alice.
Alice married Sir Leonard HASTINGS, son of Sir Ralph HASTINGS & Maud DE SUTTON. Born abt 1397. Leonard died on 20 Oct 1455, he was 58.[26]
Fifth Generation
5. Elizabeth PERCY.[27] Elizabeth died on 26 Oct 1437.
In 1403 Elizabeth married John DE CLIFFORD 7th Lord Clifford, son of Thomas DE CLIFFORD 6th Lord Clifford (abt 1363-18 Aug 1391) & Elizabeth DE ROS (-1424). Born abt 1388. John died in Meaux, France on 13 Mar 1421/22, he was 33. Occupation: Sheriff of Westmorland. [28] They had the following children:
6 i. Mary (1404-)
ii. Thomas. Born on 26 Mar 1414.[29] Thomas died in Battle of St. Albans, England on 22 May 1455, he was 41.[29] Occupation: Member of Parliament, 1436-1453; Sheriff of Westmorland.[29],[30]
After Mar 1424 when Thomas was 9, he married Joan DACRE, daughter of Thomas DACRE 6th Lord Dacre (27 Oct 1387-5 Jan 1458) & Philippa DE NEVILLE (-aft 8 Jul 1453).[29]
Sixth Generation
6. Mary DE CLIFFORD.[31] Born in 1404. Buried in Friars Minor, Ipswich, England.[32]
Mary married Sir Philip WENTWORTH, son of Sir Roger WENTWORTH (-aft 5 Jun 1452) & Margery LE DESPENCER (ca 1397-20 Apr 1478). Born abt 1424 in Nettlestead, Suffolk, England.[33] Philip died in Middlehan, York, England on 18 May 1464, he was 40.[32] Occupation: Sheriff of Norfolk.[32] They had the following children:
7 i. Elizabeth
ii. Henry. Born abt 1448.[32],[34] Henry died aft 17 Aug 1499, he was 51.[32] On 20 Feb 1484 when Henry was 36, he first married Anne SAY (SAYE), daughter of Sir John SAY (SAYE) & Elizabeth CHEYNE.[32] Henry second married Elizabeth NEVILLE, daughter of John NEVILLE Marquess Montagu & Isabel INGOLDSTHORPE.
Seventh Generation
7. Elizabeth WENTWORTH.[35]
Elizabeth married Martin DE LA SEE (DE LACEY)[36]. Born abt 1420 in England. Martin died in Barnston, York, England in 1494, he was 74. They had the following children:
i. Joan[37]. Joan died aft 20 Jul 1527.[33] Joan married Sir Peter (Piers) HILDYARD, son of Sir Robert HILDYARD (abt 1435-21 May 1501) & Elizabeth HASTINGS (bef 1440-). Born abt 1460 in of Winestead, Holderness, East Riding, York England. Peter (Piers) died on 29 Mar 1501/02, he was 41.[33] Residence: Winestead, Holderness, East Riding, York England.[33]
ii. Elizabeth. Elizabeth married Roger KELKE[38]. Born in Barnetby, England.
iii. Martin (Martyn)[39].
Sources:
1. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p. 231.
2. Ibid. p 285.
3. Leese, Thelma Annamarylis, "Blood Royal" Issue of the Kings and Queens of Medieval England, 1066-1399, Heritage Books, Bowie, MD, The Normans and Plantagenets, 1996, p 261.
4. Hardy, Blanche C., Philippa of Hainault and her times, London, 1911.
5. Call, Michel L., Royal Ancestors of Some American Families, chart 11202.
6. Stuart, Roderick W., Royalty for commoners: the complete known lineage of John of Gaunt, Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, MD, 2nd Ed., 1992, line 50-22.
7. “European Monarchs (www.royal.gov.uk).”
8. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 5, Gloucester chart pedigree.
9. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p 42.
10. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 4, chart III.
11. Montgomery-Massingberd, Hugh (editor), Burke's Presidential Families of the United States, Burke's Peerage, Ltd (London), Montgomery-Massingberd, Hugh, 1975.
12. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., line 1A-31.
13. Montgomery-Massingberd, Hugh (editor), Burke's Presidential Families of the United States, Burke's Peerage, Ltd (London), Montgomery-Massingberd, Hugh, 1975, table 13.
14. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., line 5-31.
15. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 9, p 714.
16. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p 287.
17. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 7, p 173.
18. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, pp 231-232.
19. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984.
20. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., p 60 line 33.
21. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 12, p 512.
22. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p. 148-149.
23. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., line 19-32.
24. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, Vol 9, p 714.
25. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., line 19-33.
26. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p 177.
27. Ibid. p. 179.
28. Weis, Frederick Lewis, The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1999, line 36-11.
29. Weis, Frederick Lewis, Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 7th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., line 5-35.
30. Weis, Frederick Lewis, The Magna Charta Sureties, 1215, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1999, line 36-12.
31. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, p. 129.
32. Ibid. p 173.
33. Ibid. p 328.
34. Cokayne, George Edward, The Complete Peerage of England, Scotland, Ireland, Great Britain and the UK, Extant, Extinct or Dormant, St. Martin's Press, Inc, 13 Volumes, August 1984, vol 4, p 292.
35. Faris, David, Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists, LOC Card # 96-76348, 1st Ed, 1996, pp 250-251.
36. Ibid. pp. 250-251.
37. Ibid. p. 251.
38. Holmes, Alvin, The Farrars Island Family and its English, Gateway Press (Baltimore), 1972.
39. Visitation, Yorkshire.
The...@aol.com
Dear Scott, Ashley, and Hal, et al.,
The descent you show from Edward III of England to Elizabeth Wentworth
is as I have it.
In answer to the other question of Ashley's (re: the ancestors of
Elizabeth W. besides E III), the following is an AT for Elizabeth Wentworth to 7
generations, which indicates a number of interesting descents. This shows 47 of
64 gggg grandparents of Elizabeth Wentworth, and indicates multiple descents
from the Plantagenets via Edward I (Edward II - obvious- and daughter Joan of
Acre), Henry III (Edward I and Edmund, earl of Lancaster), John (Henry III and
his bastards, Richard and Joan), and beyond. Not to mention many other
interesting individuals, incl. Bartholomew de Badlesmere (multiple descents) and
William Marshal (many many descents - although he was too distant to appear in
person).
There is quite a bit more information in hand - let me know if a GEDCOM
would be of use.
By the bye, if anyone (Scott? Ashley? Hal?) is a descendant of William
Farrar, I'd be interested in hearing more from you.
Hope this is useful.
Cheers,
John *
____________________________
1 Elizabeth Wentworth.[1] Born ? 1450.[2] Elizabeth died bef 20 Nov 1494.[3]
she married Sir Martin de la See[4].
2 Sir Philip Wentworth. Born abt 1424. Sir Philip died in after Battle of
Hexham
(executed) on 18 May 1464, he was 40.[2]
abt 1446 when Sir Philip was 22, he married Mary Clifford.
3 Mary Clifford. Mary died on 4 Oct 1478.[2]
4 Roger Wentworth. Roger died on 24 Oct 1452.[5]
bef 25 Jun 1423 Roger married Margery Le Despenser.[6],[5]
5 Margery Le Despenser. Born abt 1400.[5] Margery died on 20 Apr 1478, she
was 78.[5]
Baroness Le Despenser (de jure).
6 John Clifford.[5] Born abt 1388. John died in siege of Meaux, France on 13
Mar 1421.
Lord Clifford.[5]
abt 1404 when John was 16, he married Elizabeth Percy[5].
7 Elizabeth Percy.[5] Elizabeth died on 26 Oct 1437.[2] Buried in Staindrop.
8 John Wentworth. Born abt 1370. Of North Elmsall, co. York
John married Elizabeth Beaumont.
9 Elizabeth Beaumont.
10 Sir Philip Le Despenser. Born abt 1365.[5] Sir Philip died in d.s.p.m. on
20
Jun 1424.[5] Lord Le Despenser.
Sir Philip married Elizabeth Tiptoft.
11 Elizabeth Tiptoft. Born in 1371.[5] Elizabeth died bef 20 Jun 1424, she
was 53.[5]
Buried in Church of the Grey Friars, Ipswich.[5]
12 Thomas Clifford. Born abt 1363. Thomas died near Speyer(?), Germany on 18
Aug 1391.[5] Lord Clifford.
Thomas married Elizabeth de Ros[5].
13 Elizabeth de Ros.[5] Elizabeth died in Mar 1424.[7]
14 Sir Henry Percy. Sir Henry died in Battle of Shrewsbury on 21 Jul 1403, he
was
39.[2] Born on 20 May 1364.[5] Known as Henry 'Hotspur' Percy.
bef 10 Dec 1379 when Sir Henry was 15, he married Elizabeth Mortimer.[5]
15 Elizabeth Mortimer. Born on 12 Feb 1371 in Usk, Wales.[2]
16 John Wentworth. John died on 15 Oct 1425.[1] Of Elmsall, co. York
John married Agnes Dransfield[8].
17 Agnes Dransfield.[8] Agnes died on 3 Oct 1430.[1]
18 Richard Beaumont, of Whitley Hall
Richard married Cecilia.
19 Cecilia.
20 Philip Le Despenser. Born on 18 Oct 1342 in Gedney.[5] Philip died in
Goxhill
on 4 Aug 140.[5] Lord Le Despenser.[5]
Philip married Elizabeth.
21 Elizabeth. Elizabeth died bef 4 Aug 1401.[5] Buried in abbey of Newhouse,
co.Lincoln.[5]
22 Robert de Tibetot. Born on 11 Jun 1341.[6] Robert died in d.s.p.m., prob.
Gascony on 13 Apr 1372.[6],[5] Lord Tibetot.[5]
aft 30 Apr 1348 when Robert was 6, he married Margaret Deincourt[5].[5],[9]
23 Margaret Deincourt.[5] Margaret died on 2 Apr 1380.[6]
24 Roger de Clifford. Born on 10 Jul 1333.[6] Roger died on 13 Jul 1389, he
was 56.[6]
Lord Clifford.
Roger married Maud de Beauchamp.
25 Maud de Beauchamp. Maud died ca 1403.[6]
26 Thomas de Ros. Born on 13 Jan 1336.[6] Thomas died in Uffington on 8 Jun
1384[5].
Lord Ros.[5]
On 1 Jan 1358 when Thomas was 21, he married Beatrice Stafford.[6]
27 Beatrice Stafford. Beatrice died in Apr 1415.[6]
28 Henry Percy. Henry died in Battle of Bramham Moor on 19 Feb 1407.[5]
Born on 10 Nov 1341.[6] Earl of Northumberland.
On 12 Jul 1358 when Henry was 16, he married Margaret Neville, in royal
licence
dated 26 Feb 1357/58.[6],[5]
29 Margaret Neville. Margaret died in May 1372.[6]
30 Edmund Mortimer. Born on 1 Feb 1351 in Llangoed in Llyswen, co. Brecon.[7]
Edmund died in Dominican friary, Cork, Ireland on 27 Dec 1381.[7]
Buried in Wigmore abbey, co. Hereford.[10] Earl of March.
ca May 1368 when Edmund was 17, he married Philippa of Clarence, in
Reading.[7]
31 Philippa of Clarence. Born on 16 Aug 1355 in Eltham Palace, Kent.[7]
Philippa
died bef 6 Dec 1379.[7] Buried in Wigmore abbey, co. Hereford.
Countess of Ulster.
32 John Wentworth, of Elmsall, co. York.
John married Alice Basset.
33 Alice Basset.
34 William Dransfield.
40 Sir Philip Le Despenser. Born on 6 Apr 1313.[5] Sir Philip died on 23 Aug
1349.[5]
knight, of Parlington, co. York, Alkborough, co. Lincs and Camoys Manor in
Toppesfield, Essex
Sir Philip married Joan de Cobham.
41 Joan de Cobham. Joan died bef 15 May 1357.[5]
44 John de Tibetot. Born on 20 Jul 1313.[6] John died on 13 Apr 1367.[6]
Lord Tibetot.
bef 24 Jul 1337 when John was 24, he married Margaret de Badlesmere.[5]
45 Margaret de Badlesmere. Margaret died aft 3 Dec 1344.[5]
46 William Deincourt. Born bef 7 Feb 1300.[5] William died on 2 Jun 1364.[5]
Lord Deincourt.
bef 26 Mar 1326 when William was 26, he married Millicent la Zouche.[6],[5]
47 Millicent la Zouche. Millicent died on 22 Jun 1379.[5]
48 Robert Clifford. Born on 5 Nov 1305. Robert died on 20 May 1344.[5]
Lord Clifford.
In Jun 1328 when Robert was 22, he married Isabel de Berkeley, in Berkeley
Castle.[5]
49 Isabel de Berkeley. Isabel died on 25 Jul 1362.[5]
50 Thomas de Beauchamp. Thomas died in Calais on 13 Nov 1369.[6]
Born ca 14 Feb 1313.[6] Buried in 'quire' of Collegiate Church of Our
Lady,
Warwick.[11] Earl of Warwick.
ca 1337 when Thomas was 23, he married Katherine de Mortimer.
51 Katherine de Mortimer. Katherine died on 4 Aug 1369.[11]
52 William de Ros. William died on 3 Feb 1342.[5] Buried in Kirkham. Lord
Ros.
bef 25 Nov 1326 William married Margery de Badlesmere.[6]
53 Margery de Badlesmere. Born abt 1306.[12],[5] Margery died on 18 Oct
1363.[12]
54 Ralph de Stafford. Born on 24 Sep 1301.[7] Ralph died on 31 Aug 1372, he
was 70.[5]
Buried in Tonbridge Priory, Kent. Earl of Stafford.
bef 6 Jul 1336 when Ralph was 34, he married Margaret de Audley.[7]
55 Margaret de Audley. Born abt 1325.[5] Margaret died on 16 Sep 1348.[2]
Buried in Tonbridge Priory, Kent. Lady Audley.
56 Henry de Percy. Henry died abt 17 May 1368.[2],[6] Born ca 1320.[6]
Lord Percy.
In Sep 1334 when Henry was 14, he married Mary of Lancaster.[6]
57 Mary of Lancaster. Mary died on 1 Sep 1362.[2] Born bef Sep 1320.[7]
Buried in Alnwick.
58 Ralph de Neville. Ralph died on 5 Aug 1367.[5] Born ca 1290.[6]
Buried in Durham Cathedral. Lord Neville.
On 14 Jan 1326 when Ralph was 36, he married Alice de Audley, in license.[5]
59 Alice de Audley. Alice died on 13 Jan 1374.[5] Buried in Durham Cathedral
Church.
60 Roger de Mortimer. Born on 11 Nov 1328.[12] Roger died on 26 Feb 1359.[2]
Earl of March.
Roger married Philippa de Montagu.
61 Philippa de Montagu. Born abt 1332.[12] Philippa died on 5 Jan 1381.[12]
62 Lionel 'of Antwerp' of England. Born on 29 Nov 1338 in Antwerp,
Flanders.[7]
Lionel 'of Antwerp' died in Alba, county of Savoy, Italy on 17 Oct
1368.[7]
Buried in Italy (reinterred, Clare priory, Suffolk).[10]
Duke of Clarence, 1362-1368.
On 15 Aug 1342 when Lionel 'of Antwerp' was 3, he married Elizabeth de
Burgh.[7]
63 Elizabeth de Burgh. Born on 6 Jul 1332 Carrickfergus castle, co. Antrim
(Ulster).[7]
Elizabeth died in Dublin on 10 Dec 1363.[7] Countess of Ulster.
64 John Wentworth.
John married Jane le Tyes[8].
65 Jane le Tyes.[8]
68 John Dransfield. John died aft 1358.[1]
John married Elizabeth[1].
69 Elizabeth.[1] Elizabeth died aft 1370.[1]
80 Philip Le Despenser. Philip died on 24 Sep 1313.[6]
of Parlington, co. York and Alkborough, co. Lincoln
Philip married Margaret de Goushill.
81 Margaret de Goushill. Born on 12 May 1294 in Whittington, co. Salop.[5]
Margaret died on 29 Jul 1349.[5]
82 John de Cobham. John died on 25 Feb 1354.[5] Buried in Cobham Church.
Lord Cobham.
John married Joan de Beauchamp.
83 Joan de Beauchamp.
88 Payn de Tibetot. Payn died in Battle of Bannockburn on 24 Jun 1314.[6]
Born bef 25 Jun 1281.[6] Lord Tibetot.
bef 3 Sep 1311 when Payn was 30, he married Agnes de Ros.[5]
89 Agnes de Ros. Agnes died bef 25 Nov 1328.[6]
90 Bartholomew de Badlesmere. Born bef 13 Apr 1275.[12],[5],[13] Bartholomew
died
in Canterbury (executed) on 14 Apr 1322.[6],[5] Lord Badlesmere.
bef 30 Jun 1308 when Bartholomew was 33, he married Margaret de Clare.[5]
91 Margaret de Clare. Born bef Apr 1286.[14],[5] Margaret died in
1334.[12],[5]
92 John Deincourt. John died bef 1327 in d.v.p.[5]
94 Sir William la Zouche. Sir William died on 11 Mar 1351.[5]
Born bef 21 Dec 1276.[5] Lord Zouche of Haryngworth.[5]
bef 15 Feb 1295 when Sir William was 18, he married Maud Lovel.[5]
95 Maud Lovel. Maud died bef 1346.[5] Born bef 1 Oct 1280.[5]
96 Robert de Clifford. Born abt 1 Apr 1274.[5] Robert died in Battle of
Bannockburn
on 24 Jun 1314, he was 40.[5] Lord Clifford.
On 13 Nov 1295 when Robert was 21, he married Maud de Clare.[5]
97 Maud de Clare. Born abt 1279. Maud died bef 24 May 1327.[5]
98 Sir Maurice de Berkeley. Born ca 1271.[5] Sir Maurice died in Wallingford
Castle
on 31 May 1326.[5] Buried in Wallingford, then to St Augustine's
Bristol.[5]
Lord Berkeley.[5]
In 1289 when Sir Maurice was 18, he married Eva la Zouche.[5]
99 Eva la Zouche. Eva died on 5 Dec 1314.[5] Buried in Portbury Church,
Somerset.[5]
100 Guy de Beauchamp. Guy died in Warwick on 12 Aug 1315.[6],[11] Born in
1278.[6]
Buried in Bordesley Abbey.[6] Earl of Warwick.
ca 13 Feb 1309 when Guy was 31, he married Alice de Tosny.[6],[5]
101 Alice de Tosny. Born bef 28 Nov 1285.[5] Alice died on 8 Jan 1324, she
was 38.[6]
102 Sir Roger de Mortimer. Born on 25 Apr 1287.[15] Sir Roger died in Tyburn
(executed) on 29 Nov 1330.[16] Buried in Church of the Grey Friars,
Shrewsbury.[5] Earl of March.
bef 6 Oct 1306 when Sir Roger was 19, he married Joan de Geneville.[5]
103 Joan de Geneville. Born on 2 Feb 1285.[12],[5] Joan died on 19 Oct
1356.[5]
104 William de Ros. William died bef 16 Aug 1316.[5] Born bef 27 Jun
1255.[5]
Buried in Kirkham. Lord Ros (of Helmsley).
bef 1287 when William was 31, he married Maud de Vaux.[6]
105 Maud de Vaux. Born bef 1 Nov 1261.[17],[13] Maud died bef 1316.[5]
Buried in
Pentney Priory, Norfolk.[5]
106 Bartholomew de Badlesmere. Born bef 13 Apr 1275.[12],[5],[13]
Bartholomew died
in Canterbury (executed) on 14 Apr 1322.[6],[5] Lord Badlesmere.
bef 30 Jun 1308 when Bartholomew was 33, he married Margaret de Clare.[5]
107 Margaret de Clare. Born bef Apr 1286.[14],[5] Margaret died in
1333.[12],[5]
108 Edmund de Stafford. Edmund died bef 12 Aug 1308.[6] Born on 17 Jul
1273.[6]
Buried in Church of the Friars Minor, Stafford. Lord Stafford.
bef 1298 when Edmund was 24, he married Margaret Basset.[6]
109 Margaret Basset. Margaret died bef 17 Mar 1336.[6]
110 Hugh de Audley. Born abt 1289. Hugh died on 10 Nov 1347.[5] Buried in
Tonbridge
Priory, Kent.[5] Earl of Gloucester, and Lord Audley.
On 28 Apr 1317 when Hugh was 28, he married Margaret de Clare, in Windsor.[5]
111 Margaret de Clare. Born in 1294. Margaret died on 9 Apr 1342.[5] Buried in
Tonbridge Priory, Kent. Countess of Cornwall (widow of Piers de
Gaveston)
112 Sir Henry de Percy. Sir Henry died on 26 Feb 1351.[2] Born ca 1299.[6]
Buried
in Alnwick.[5] Lord Percy.
Sir Henry married Idoine de Clifford.
113 Idoine de Clifford. Idoine died on 24 Aug 1365.[5] Buried in Beverley
Minster.
114 Henry of Lancaster. Born abt 1281 in Grosmont Castle, Monmouthshire.
Henry
died in Leicester on 22 Sep 1345.[5] Earl of Lancaster.
bef 2 Mar 1296 when Henry was 15, he married Maud de Chaworth.[7]
115 Maud de Chaworth. Maud died bef 3 Dec 1322.[5]
116 Ralph de Neville. Ralph died on 18 Apr 1331.[5],[18] Born on 18 Oct
1262.[6]
Lord Neville of Raby.
Ralph married Euphemia de Clavering.
117 Euphemia de Clavering.
118 Hugh de Audley. Hugh died abt 1325. Lord Audley.
aft 1286 Hugh married Isolde de Mortimer.
119 Isolde de Mortimer.
120 Sir Edmund de Mortimer. Born abt 1306 in Wigmore, co. Hereford.[12] Sir
Edmund
died on 17 Dec 1331.[12] Lord Mortimer.
On 27 Jun 1316 when Sir Edmund was 10, he married Elizabeth de Badlesmere.[12]
121 Elizabeth de Badlesmere. Born abt 1313 in Sussex.[12],[5] Elizabeth died
on 8
Jun 1355.[12]
122 William de Montagu. Born in 1301 in Salisbury.[12] William died abt
1343.
Earl of Salisbury.
abt 1327 when William was 26, he married Katherine de Grandison.[12]
123 Katherine de Grandison. Born abt 1304.[12]
124 Edward III of England. Born on 13 Nov 1312 in Windsor Castle, England.[7]
Edward III died in Sheen Palace, Surrey, England on 21 Jun 1377.[7]
Buried in
Westminster Abbey, London. King of England, 1327-1377.
On 24 Jan 1327 when Edward III was 14, he married Philippa of Hainault.
125 Philippa of Hainault. Born on 24 Jun 1311.[7] Philippa died on 15 Aug
1369.[7]
Buried in Westminster Abbey, London.
126 William de Burgh. Born on 17 Sep 1312.[5] William died in Le Ford
[Belfast],
Ireland on 6 Jun 1333.[5] Earl of Ulster.
On 1 May 1327 when William was 14, he married Maud of Lancaster.[7]
127 Maud of Lancaster. Maud died on 5 May 1377.[5] Buried in Campsey Priory,
Suffolk.
1. "The Visitation of Yorkshire," Harleian Soc., William Flower, Esquire,
Norroy
King of Arms, Harleian Series, Vol. 16, Mitchell and Hughes, Printers,
London
1881, pedigree of Hastings of Elsing ('Hastynges.' of Fenwick, co.
Yorks.)
pp. 154-156.
2. "Plantagenet Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists", David Faris, Baltimore:
the
Genealogical Pub. Company, 1st ed.
3. "Testamenta Eboracensia [Selection of Wills, Reg. at York]," The
Surtees Society, Andrews & Co., Durham (J. B. Nichols & Sons, London),
Vol. IV, 1869, see pp. 100-101 for will of Sir Martin de la See.
4. "The History and Antiquities of the Seigniory of Holderness," George
Poulson,
Esq., Hull: Thomas Topping, and W. Pickering, 1840 (Vol I) 1841 (Vol II),
pp. 197-198, pedigree of Hilton of Swine.
5. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United
Kingdom.
6. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen Pub Co.,
Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
7. "Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists," David Faris, New
England Historic Genealogical Society, 2nd edition, 1999.
8. "Visitations of the North, Part III," Publications of the Surtees
Society,Vol.
CXLIV, Northumberland Press Ltd., Newcastle, 1930, 78 et seq.
9. "Public Record Office Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/, extracted 7
October,
2002, DEEDS OF TITLE AND COGNATE PAPERS, Nottinghamshire, DD/4P/22/250 -
re: Aldeby and minority, William de Morley (1 March 1339/40), Girlington:
from Warwickshire County Record Office:
Mordaunt of Walton, Suffolk Record Office,
Ipswich Branch: The Iveagh (Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts, ref. HD
1538/172/3 -
date: 6 Aug 1272 (re: Weyland), Suffolk Record Office, Ipswich Branch:
The Iveagh(Phillipps) Suffolk Manuscripts, Thredling and Stow Hundreds,
HD 1538/15 Vol.15/fol.17/4 - date: 28 Dec 1394, (ref. to Robert Morley,
knt.),
Hastings: from Norfolk Record Office: Hastings Family of Gressenhall,
charters
and other documents re: Hastings of Elsing, from FILE - Charter - Grant -
ref.
MR 72 241 x 3, also, Norfolk Record Office: Collecton of Manorial
Documents
relating to Gressenhall and Hunstanton, (includes COLLECTION of MANORIAL
DOCUMENTS relating to GRESSENHALL and HUNSTANTON).
10. Douglas Richardson, "Plantagenet notes," Jan 20, 2003.
11. "Testamenta Vetusta," Nicholas Harris Nicolas, Esq., 2 Vols. London:
Nichols &
Son, Parliament Street, 1826, [title con't]: Being Illustrations From
Wills.
12. "Ancestors of Edmund de Mortimer," U...@aol.com, 4 August 2000.
13. "Knights of Edward I," Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., Pubs. of the
Harleian
Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
14. John P. Ravilious, "Clare Confusion," Nov 27, 2001,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com.
15. Douglas Richardson, "Mortimer account," November 19, 2002, paper copy:
library of
John Ravilious, cites sources for history of Mortimer family, including
Wigmore
chronicle (in Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum).
16. "Brewer's British Royalty," David Williamson, Cassell/Wellington House,
1996.
17. Kay Allen, AG, "Vaux Genealogy," Feb 23, 1999,
GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com,
followup on 'Re: DeVaux', December 29, 1998.
18. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by Joseph
Foster, W.
Wilfred Head, London, 1874.
________________________
* John P. Ravilious
Cristopher Nash
and I'd love to know more about it (beyond your citation of the 2
visitations)! (E.g. The Beaumont and Basset connections come
absolutely fresh to me!) I've been trying to encourage Paul Reed for
some years to publish his hard work on this line -- maybe you've got
it from him?
Can you tell us a bit more about your confidence in this run of cards
in your deck?
Yours (with impatient zest),
Cris
The...@aol.com wrote -
>the following is an AT for Elizabeth Wentworth to 7 generations,
>which indicates a number of interesting descents. This shows 47 of
>64 gggg grandparents of Elizabeth Wentworth, and indicates multiple descents
>from the Plantagenets via Edward I (Edward II - obvious- and daughter Joan of
>Acre), Henry III (Edward I and Edmund, earl of Lancaster), John (Henry III and
>his bastards, Richard and Joan), and beyond. Not to mention many other
>interesting individuals, incl. Bartholomew de Badlesmere (multiple
>descents) and William Marshal (many many descents - although he was
>too distant to appear in
>person).
[SNIP]
--
Hal Bradley
Thank you for the AT. I noticed you had some unsourced Wentworth's.
Particularly:
8 John Wentworth. Born abt 1370. Of North Elmsall, co. York
John married Elizabeth Beaumont.
9 Elizabeth Beaumont.
and
32 John Wentworth, of Elmsall, co. York.
John married Alice Basset.
33 Alice Basset.
This varies from the "Wentworth Genealogy". I do not have the "Visitation of
Yorkshire" at hand. Can you please provide more details? Thank you.
Hal Bradley
Tim Powys-Lybbe
c...@windsong.u-net.com (Cristopher Nash) wrote:
> John, you've given us a fascinating geneal. for Roger (4) Wentworth,
> and I'd love to know more about it (beyond your citation of the 2
> visitations)! (E.g. The Beaumont and Basset connections come
> absolutely fresh to me!)
Richard Beaumont of Whitley hall, Yorks is in the 1558 Essex visitation,
pub 1878, p. 124.
Alice Bissett and her father Roger are also in that visitation on the
same page.
Margaret Bassett is in CP XII/1, p. 173; II, 3, note (f); and XIV, 589.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Sutliff
See also:
Visitation of Yorkshire [1563-4]:340
You have correctly identified Alice and her father as Bissets rather than
Bassets as shown in the AT.
Wallop:823 also gives her as a Bisset, but the Wentworth descent in that
book contains some incorrect associations so it is unreliable.
Another Elizabeth Beaumont of the same Beaumont of Whitley family (later
generation) was mother of Sir Richard Lyster, Chief Justice of the King's
Bench d. 1554.
HS
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
news:23245bf...@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
Tim Powys-Lybbe
"Sutliff" <sut...@redshift.com> wrote:
> Tim;
>
> See also:
>
> Visitation of Yorkshire [1563-4]:340
I'ld rather not!
This visitation of Yorkshire gives me the blues. I have gone through a
lot of it and found it to be rubbish: there are too many long
genealogies back to the mists of time with no pretence of any
documentation. And the Neville genealogy is the source of all the junk
on that family that we have to disabuse. I had been making a load of
progress through all the visitations, using my nit-picking antennae but
this particular Yorks visitation is beyond our ken. So I gave up and
did Sanders' Baronies instead, a much more realistic exercise, though
not without its own problems. Perhaps I'll return to this Yorks
visitation one day, but it is the worst I have come across.
> You have correctly identified Alice and her father as Bissets rather than
> Bassets as shown in the AT.
Oh good: something is right in the visitations, then!
<snip>
Sutliff
unreliable.
Hap
"Tim Powys-Lybbe" <t...@powys.org> wrote in message
news:18906bf...@south-frm.demon.co.uk...
Brad Verity
> 55 Margaret de Audley. Born abt 1325.[5] Margaret died on 16 Sep 1348.[2]
> Buried in Tonbridge Priory, Kent. Lady Audley.
I see these dates for Margaret de Audley all the time in databases,
and as one genealogist, Patrick W. Montague-Smith, built a case for an
entire royal line of descent partly from Margaret's incorrect date of
death, it's important to examine her chronology more closely.
28 April 1317 Margaret de Clare, Countess of Cornwall, widow of Piers
Gaveston, is married at Windsor to Sir Hugh de Audley.
17 March 1322 Battle of Boroughbridge. Hugh de Audley is taken
prisoner.
2 May 1322 Edward II orders Sempringham priory to accept Margaret,
wife of Hugh de Audley the younger, and not to let her leave the
premises.
1325-26 At some point Hugh de Audley escapes from his prison at
Nottingham castle. Edward II is still paying the expenses of his
niece Margaret at Sempringham priory in 1326.
6 July 1336 Edward III grants a commission to inquire into the
complaint of Hugh de Audley that Ralph de Stafford abducted Hugh's
daughter Margaret and married her against Hugh's will. The complaint
was undoubtedly filed immediately after the abduction, which probably
took place in May or June.
April 1342 Margaret (de Clare), Countess of Gloucester, dies and her
daughter Margaret is returned as age 20 or more in the Rutland IPM and
age 18 or more in the London and Essex IPMs. As her parents were
physically separated from March 1322 until sometime in 1326, it is
impossible for Margaret de Audley to have been aged 18 or 19 in 1342.
She had to have been at least 20. The fact that she bore a child to
Ralph de Stafford within a year after her abduction, also favors a
birthdate of 1322 or earlier.
10 Nov. 1347 Hugh de Audley, Earl of Gloucester, dies, and his
daughter Margaret is returned as age 33 years in his Lincoln IPM, as
age 30 and more in his Essex IPM, as age 30 in his Northampton,
Oxford, Buckingham, Norfolk, Suffolk, Rutland and Bedford IPMs, as age
26 years and more in his Southampton and Surrey IPMs, aged 24 years
and more in his Cambridge and Huntingdon IPMs and of full age in his
Wiltshire IPM. The Kent IPMs take the cake, though - an inquisition
taken at Tonbridge on 18 November 1347 returned Margaret de Audley as
26 years and more, then another inquisition taken four days later on
22 November 1347 again at Tonbridge managed to age Margaret four
years, returning her age as 30 and more. As an age of more than 30
years in late 1347 would put Margaret's birth before her parents'
marriage, those ages cannot be correct. Nine months following her
parents' marriage was January 1318, which makes the age of 30 in late
1347 interesting, though not impossible. An age of 26 would put her
birth in 1321, also quite possible, but an age of 24 in late 1347 puts
us in 1323 which is not possible, considering her father was taken
prisoner in March of 1322.
28 January 1348 Ralph de Stafford and his wife Margaret convey
various manors to feoffess. (see Cal. Patent Rolls)
August 1349 Lord and Lady Stafford visit Elizabeth de Burgh, Lady of
Clare (Margaret's aunt) at her castle of Usk (see Frances Underhill
in "For Her Good Estate", citing Elizabeth's household accounts).
22 May 1357, Westminster "Commitment to Ralph, earl of Stafford, of
the wardship of the manor of Styuecle, co. Buckingham, late of Gilbert
de Clare, late earl of Gloucester, which is in the king's hand because
of the minority of Hugh, son and heir of the said Ralph and Margaret,
late his wife, countess of Gloucester, deceased, kinswoman and one of
the heirs of the said earl of Gloucester, to hold until the lawful age
of the said heir, together with the issues from Easter last, rendering
8l. yearly at the Exchequer by equal portions at Michaelmas and
Easter, and doing the real services and all other charges due to the
king and others. By K. and C." [from Patent Rolls]
13 July 1362 Writ to the escheator to enquire as to lands and heir of
Margaret late the wife of Ralph, earl of Stafford, and who has been in
possession of her lands since her death and received the issues. This
probably was ordered because her son and heir Hugh (whom CP estimated
to have been born about 1342) was coming of age. (see Cal. IPM)
26 January 1363 Inquisition taken at Stafford returned that Margaret
died on 16 September, 21 Edward III [1347]. Hugh, son of the
aforesaid Ralph and Margaret, of full age, is her heir. (see Cal. IPM)
Patrick Montague-Smith, in his 1984 article "An Unrecorded Line of
Descent From King Edward I of England With Some Early Settled American
Descendants" in 'The Genealogist', surmised "The Inquisition post
mortem of Margaret Audley, wife of the first Earl of Stafford, gives
her date of death as 16 Sept. 1347, but the 'Complete Peerage [CP]
12(1):177 n.(c) states that there is conclusive evidence that she
survived her father, who died 10 Nov. 1347. It is apparent that the
Inquisition's date is merely a year out; under the article on the
second earl, id., p.177, it is stated that he succeeded his mother in
1348 as Lord Audley."
This is wishful thinking genealogy - Hugh de Stafford did not succeed
his mother as Lord Audley (a title CP slapped onto him in order to
demonstrate the succession of an abeyance terminated centuries later),
Margaret de Audley did not die in 1348, but apparently sometime
between late 1349 and spring 1357, the 1363 Inquisition's date of
death for her is incorrect (at least as to the year), and her son did
not succeed to any lands of hers until 1362/3.
All of the above throws some doubt onto Montague-Smith's conclusion
that Katherine de Stafford, daughter of Ralph and Margaret, was the
mother of the son and heir of John de Sutton, as it now seems she may
have been born subsequent to 1348.
Cheers, ------Brad
The...@aol.com
Dear Cris, Hal, Hap, Brom, Ashley, et al.,
Quite a flurry of posts I've just now caught up with (well,
almost).
The Wentworth line given in my AT has, unfortunately, not to date
been researched beyond what has been found in the Visitation record
and varied SGM posts. I am hopeful that eventual (nay, even near-
term) publication of Wentworth research by those far more
knowledgeable re: this line than I will fill in the documentary
lacunae, and possibly correct any erroneous information.
For the record, my sources to date are (1) the Visitation of
Yorkshire (1563 & 1564), Harleian Series (vol. 16), and (2)
Visitations of the North, Part III (Surtees Soc.). Should anyone
desire fuller citations re: same, please advise.
Tim, thanks for the Bisset (vs. Basset) information you provided
in your post. I agree in general with your summation as to the uses
and caveats re: the Visitation records. I have found the particular
Yorkshire Visitation pedigrees (1563 & 1564) to be useful; in
particular, that for the Hastings family of Elsing & Gressenhall
('Hastynges of Fenwick' in the Yorkshire volume) to be accurate, and
that from the generation of Sir Henry de Hastings and Ada of
Huntingdon (d. aft 2 Nov 1241). The Yorkshire Visitation you
mentioned in your post is I believe from another publication: would
you provide a citation for same? I'd like to look this up for some
comparisons, unless you advise too much Excedrin would be
required.....;)
To those who have indicated an interest in the GEDCOM I mentioned,
I will provide this in short order to your email addresses directly.
Unless you desire otherwise, I will probably make this a full copy of
my current working database - confining this to a strict AT or other
format will I fear strip away much useful detail, esp. as to
collateral lines in which you might have further interest.
Meanwhile, good luck, and good hunting to all.
John *
* John P. Ravilious
Tim Powys-Lybbe
The...@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
> Tim, thanks for the Bisset (vs. Basset) information you provided
> in your post. I agree in general with your summation as to the uses
> and caveats re: the Visitation records.
If you go through the Visitations, as I have done for quite a few of
them, you find an emergent discipline: the later visitations confine
themselves (by and large) to the person (supposedly) interviewed, his
ancestors up to and including his grandfather and all his descendants.
The earlier visitations, notable those in the mid 16th century included
everything the interviewee may have cared to assert. Some
interviewees, by comparison with later research, notably CP, got things
right, others didn't. The Yorkshire Visitation of 1563-4 has a greater
proportion of incorrect information than any other and casts into severe
doubt the credibility of the rest of that visitation by William Flower.
> I have found the particular Yorkshire Visitation pedigrees (1563 &
> 1564) to be useful; in particular, that for the Hastings family of
> Elsing & Gressenhall ('Hastynges of Fenwick' in the Yorkshire
> volume) to be accurate, and that from the generation of Sir Henry
> de Hastings and Ada of Huntingdon (d. aft 2 Nov 1241).
As ever, some families had their facts straight. But the Neville one
on p. 220 which includes the infamous "Gylbert Lord Nevyll Admyral of
England in Anno 1067" began to stretch my credibility. The were others
that were similarly long and without reasonable credibility but I did
not make a note of them as I was not sure enough of my facts.
The question is whether you would accept as valid a pedigree that
someone produced for you today which showed his family going back four
hundred years (I have one like this that a long departed grandmother
left behind her). If that was all you were given, you would inevitably
say to yourself "very nice, but" and wonder where on earth the supporting
documentation might be (as with my grandmother's document). And you
certainly would not pass that pedigree on as valid without some
research. This is what this visitation presents to us and I think we
should treat it in the same way as we would a modern, unsupported
pedigree of the same length.
> The Yorkshire Visitation you mentioned in your post is I believe
> from another publication: would you provide a citation for same?
This is the Harleian Society book, Volume XVI, published in 1881 and
edited by Charles Best Norcliffe, MA. In the Preface he refers to four
other Yorkshire Visitations:
1530 by Thomas Tonge, Norroy king of Arms, pub by the Surtees Society
in 1863
1664 and 1665 by Sir William Dugdale pub by the Surtees Society in 1859
(being transcribed from Miss Currer's Manuscript).
1584-5 and 1612 by Glover and St George, published in 1875 by Joseph
Foster.
Norcliffe writes of the 1563-4 visitation:
"No complete copy of this Visitation is to be found in the British
Library. The manuscript now printed belonged to William Flower,
Norroy, Robert Glover, Somerset herald, Ralph Brooke, York herald and
Sir Peter Le Neve, Norroy; and in the year 1738 was purchased by
Thomas Norcliffe, Esq., of Langton in the east Riding of Yorkshire,
and of Heslington near York, a genealogist of considerable accuracy
and research."
Norcliffe also explains that there was the original still in the College
of Arms and with which he was able to compare Flower's copy. He refers
to this original as D 2 but says "it did not appear worth while to
collate the other copy, marked D 5". If D 2 had additional
information, he added it to this volume in italics. But he did not say
what he did if Flower's copy had additional information compared to D 2.
Later in the preface Norcliffe writes:
"Numerous additions were made, nearly all by the same hand, in later
years, and these are duly noticed in he Manuscript ... These additions
explain why the Harleian Catalogue calls MS 1171 "Part of the
Visitation of William Flower, Norroy, 1575, which has some evidence of
being Original." Yorkshire was not visited in 1575."
My contrast is the comparative pleasure with which I read the
visitations edited by G D Squibb, such as that of Oxford 1669 and 1675,
pub by Harleian in 1993. At least he started with the visitation record
in the College of Arms, though this had only been obtained with
difficulty from the herald Edward Bysshe's widow and may have had bits
taken out. Squibb noted that Bysshe restricted himself to the
grandfather of the person making the entry. But Squibb has added to
this some information, clearly in italics, from contemporary sources to
include some of the siblings of these restricted ancestors. (And to me
there is the final charming detail that Squibb has also recorded the
number of hearths of the various properties and I have 24 of the
receipts for the hearth taxes paid by a man and his son, both ancestral
and in this volume, over the years 1673 to 1689. Mind you in one of
his additions to this family, Squibb put in an eldest son and that he
"d. young"; the latter was not true but the lad was born before his
parents married so his survival and his own descendants, one of whom
ended in slavery in the West Indies, were somewhat concealed - until
revealed by my painstaking brother three centuries later.)
> I'd like to look this up for some comparisons, unless you advise too
> much Excedrin would be required.....;)
I would have thought that LSD was more appropriate for this Yorks
volume.
Cristopher Nash
call on. As for me, I won't trouble you to copy me the GedCom at
this point -- that'd be a Visitation-too-far on you, I feel. But
would you like me to do the job of correlating the various versions
we've seen on the ancs. of Roger Wentforwhatitsworth, so that we
could begin a name-search through the contemp. records -- which I
think I might be able to get to a bit later this summer -- ? Or do
you already have this somewhat in hand? (Though in the best of
worlds I'd start huntingdon sources rightaway, I don't want to be
unduly hastings about this.)
What I wouldn't give for a glimpse of Paul's foot-high stack of
papers on this fam. -- but then so would we all, and I hate the very
thought of presuming to pre-empt (let alone duplicate) all his work!
Cris
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson
Cristopher Nash wrote:
> John -- thanks for this run-down on what sources we presently have to
> call on. As for me, I won't trouble you to copy me the GedCom at
> this point -- that'd be a Visitation-too-far on you, I feel.
FWIW, **I** would like to receive a gedgom of the Wentworth data. Is it
too
much trouble to ask you to send it?
Yours,
Jeffrey Gibson
--
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626