Hastings Pedigree
G . EDWARD ALLEN
Your sources 188, Sheppard, Ancestry of Edward Carleton..; 482, Page,
VCH Yorks., North Riding; 483, Clay, Early Yorkshire Families; are
fairly good sources and I would trust them.
Have you consulted Clay's Early Yorkshire Charters for any assistence?
G. Andrews Moriarty, "The Origin of the Hastings," English Origins of
New England Families from NEHGS Register, 1st series, Vol. II: 686-696:
1. Christina de Hastings.
2. Thomas de Hastings of Crosby Ravensworth, d. bef. 1286.
3. Christina, probable daughter,
4. Thomas of Crosby Ravensworth; d. before 1247.
5. Amice.
6. Robert de Strickland.
8. Hugh of Gissing, Norfolk; d. ca. 1203; md. ca. 1194/5.
9. Helena de Alveston of Alveston and Crosby Ravensworth, Westmoreland;
d. before 1231.
12. Walter de Strickland.
13. Christina de Letham.
16. Thomas of Gissing, Norfolk; d. 1182-89.
18. Alan de Alveston of Alveston, Yorks. and Crosby Ravensworth,
Westmoreland, a descendan5 of Arkill Egfridson, the great Yorkshire
thegn of the Conqueror's time.
32. Hugh, d. before 1166.
33. Erneburga de Flamville.
64. William.
65. de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor.
66. Hugh de Flamville, brother of Robert, of Aston Flamville,
Leicestershire.
These families can be found in VCH Leics., Warwick., Northants.
Hope this helps.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
130. Walter fitz Other de Windsor.
36. Torfin de Alveston.
Alan B. Wilson
ALLEN) wrote:
Kay,
Many thanks. This is very helpful. I've made some (at least
tentative) revisions based on your listing which, I take it, reflects
Moriarty's essay which I have not seen.
(1) One of my wilder guesses was that Thomas de Hastings, father of
Christina, was the same Thomas, son of Hugh and Helen, with whom Clay
started his Allerston pedigree. I'm glad to insert the extra generation.
(Presuming that Christina is indeed daughter of Robert de Strickland does
not add any new ancestors since Christina de Hastings daughter was married
to the descendant, Walter de Strickland.)
(2) I deleted William (my former #32) who was based only on Burke
and the Duchess of Cleveland. But this was also the way the Hastings
discussed in Complete Peerage, ancestors of the Earls of Pembroke, were
tied in. Do you know how or if there is a connection between these
Hastings lines? If I look up Gissing, Norfolk, in VCH am I likely to find
some confirmation of this Hastings line?
(3) You show as #65 a NN de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor
and as daughter of Walter FitzOther. I had thought Walter had three
sons: William, progenetor of the constables of Windsor and later Lords
Windsor; Robert, lord of Little Easton, Essex; and Gerald FitzWalter,
progenitor of the barons of Offaly, Earls of Kildare, etc. I assumed that
a sister of Maurice would be a daughter of Gerald FitzWalter and
granddaughter of Walter FitzOther. Was there another son, Maurice that I
didn't know about?
Anyhow, these revisions lead to the following tentative pedigree.
Are there further revisions or suggestions?
1 Christina de HASTINGS.
2 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1286.
3 Christina STRICKLAND.
4 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1247.
5 Amice.
6 Robert de STRICKLAND. Robert died bef 1236.
7 Beatrice de COTESFORD.
8 Hugh de HASTINGS. Hugh died bef 1204.
9 Helen of Allerston. Helen of Allerston died bef 1231.
12 Walter FitzAdam de STRICKLAND. Walter FitzAdam died in
1236/1239.
13 Christina FitzReinfrid.
16 Thomas HASTINGS. Thomas died in 1182/1189.
18 Alan of Allerston.
19 Alice DESPENCER.
24 Adam de VAUX.
26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
36 Torfin of Allerston. Torfin of Allerston died ca 1174/1176.
38 Roger DESPENCER.
48 Eustace de VAUX.
49 ? of Gilsland.
54 William Earl of Roumare. William died bef 1161; he was 65.
55 Hawise de REDVERS. Hawise died aft 1161.
64 William de HASTINGS.
65 ? de Windsor.
66 Hugh de FLAMVILLE. Hugh died in 1212.
72 Uctred of Allerston.
96 Hubert de VAUX. Hubert died in 1164.
97 Grace ?.
98 Bueth of Gilsland.
108 Roger FitzGerold de Roumare.
109 Countess Lucy.
110 Richard de REDVERS Earl of Devon. Richard died on 8 Sep 1107.
111 Adelize PEVERIL. Adelize died on 27 May 1156.
130 Gerald de Windsor Constable of Pembroke. Gerald de Windsor
died bef 1136.
131 Nesta ferch Rhys.
132 Roger de FLAMVILLE. Roger died bef 1170.
133 Ivetta (Juetta) de ARCHES. Ivetta (Juetta) died in 1206.
144 Gospatrick.
192 Robert de VAUX.
193 ? de MUNCHENSY.
196 Gilles Lord of Gilsland (Cumb).
218 Thurold Sheriff of Lincoln. Thurold died bef 1080.
219 ? MALET.
222 William PEVERIL. William died on 5 Feb 1113.
223 Adeline ?. Adeline ? died on 19 Jan 1119/1120.
260 Walter FitzOther Lord of Eton (Bucks). Walter FitzOther died
aft 1100.
261 Beatrice.
262 Rhys ap Tewdr. Rhys died in 1093.
263 Gwladys ferch Rhiwallon.
264 Hugh de FLAMVILLE.
266 William de ARCHES. William died aft 1154.
267 Ivetta ?
288 Archil.
289 Siegrith.
384 Robert de VAUX Seigneur.
386 Hubert de MUNCHENSY.
392 Bueth.
438 William MALET Sheriff of York. William died in 1071.
524 Tewdr ap Cadell.
526 Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn. Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn in 1068.
576 Ecgfrid.
578 Kilvert.
1048 Cadell ap Einion.
1052 Cynfyn ap Gwyrstan of Powys.
1053 Angharad ferch Maredudd.
1156 Ligulf.
--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
Henry Sutliff
Alan B. Wilson wrote:
Please forgive my intrusion into this apparently settled pedigree, however I
am having some troubles with this. Not the names, but the dates. For example:
66 Hugh de Flamville is shown to have died in 1212 yet his descendant great
grandson 08 Hugh de Hastings is shown to have died bef 1204
I may be very wrong, but all the Flamville dates look faulty. Perhaps some one
could have a look at this and see where these dates are correct and incorrect.
Henry Sutliff
ss...@earthlink.net
Alan B. Wilson
> Alan B. Wilson wrote:
>
> > In article <35DCCA...@pacbell.net>, all...@pacbell.net (G . EDWARD
> > ALLEN) wrote:
> >
[large snip]
> >
> > Anyhow, these revisions lead to the following tentative pedigree.
> > Are there further revisions or suggestions?
> >
> > 1 Christina de HASTINGS.
[snip]
> > 1156 Ligulf.
> >
> > --
> > Alan B. Wilson
> > abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
> >
>
> Please forgive my intrusion into this apparently settled pedigree, however I
> am having some troubles with this. Not the names, but the dates. For example:
I do not see how you could describe the pedigree (which I snipped) as
"apparently settled" after the way I introduced it. Anyhow, your comment
is certainly not an intrusion. It is very welcome.
>
> 66 Hugh de Flamville is shown to have died in 1212 yet his descendant great
> grandson 08 Hugh de Hastings is shown to have died bef 1204
>
> I may be very wrong, but all the Flamville dates look faulty. Perhaps some one
> could have a look at this and see where these dates are correct and incorrect.
>
> Henry Sutliff
> ss...@earthlink.net
The dates might conceivably have been OK if Hugh de Flamville, #66,
had lived to a very ripe old age. However I reviewed my sources and see
that I had made an egregious blunder. I attached Erneburga, #33, to the
wrong Hugh de Flamville. It should have been the Hugh in Leicestershire;
not the Hugh in Yorkshire (who d.s.p. 1212). This is quite clear in Clay,
Early Yorkshire Families, p. 32.
I'm glad you forced me to look again. I dare say Kay Allen would
have sent a warning in due time.
Here's another try. Fire away.
1 Christina de HASTINGS.
2 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1286.
3 Christina STRICKLAND.
4 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1247.
5 Amice.
6 Robert de STRICKLAND. Robert died bef 1236.
7 Beatrice de COTESFORD.
8 Hugh de HASTINGS. Hugh died bef 1204.
9 Helen of Allerston. Helen of Allerston died bef 1231.
12 Walter FitzAdam de STRICKLAND. Walter died in 1236/1239.
13 Christina FitzReinfrid.
16 Thomas HASTINGS. Thomas died in 1182/1189.
18 Alan of Allerston.
19 Alice DESPENCER.
24 Adam de VAUX.
26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
36 Torfin of Allerston. Torfin died ca 1174/1176.
38 Roger DESPENCER.
48 Eustace de VAUX.
49 ? of Gilsland.
54 William Earl of Roumare. William died bef 1161.
55 Hawise de REDVERS. Hawise died aft 1161.
64 William de HASTINGS.
65 ? de Windsor.
66 Hugh de FLAMVILLE.
72 Uctred of Allerston.
96 Hubert de VAUX. Hubert died in 1164.
97 Grace ?
98 Bueth of Gilsland.
108 Roger FitzGerold de Roumare.
109 Countess Lucy.
110 Richard de REDVERS Earl of Devon. Richard died on 8 Sep 1107.
111 Adelize PEVERIL. Adelize died on 27 May 1156.
130 Gerald de Windsor Constable of Pembroke.
Gerald died bef 1136.
131 Nesta ferch Rhys.
144 Gospatrick.
192 Robert de VAUX.
193 ? de MUNCHENSY.
196 Gilles Lord of Gilsland (Cumb).
218 Thurold Sheriff of Lincoln. Thurold died bef 1080.
219 ? MALET.
222 William PEVERIL. William died on 5 Feb 1113.
223 Adeline ? Adeline died on 19 Jan 1119/1120.
260 Walter FitzOther Lord of Eton (Bucks).
Walter FitzOther died aft 1100.
261 Beatrice.
262 Rhys ap Tewdr. Rhys ap Tewdr died in 1093.
263 Gwladys ferch Rhiwallon.
288 Archil.
289 Siegrith.
384 Robert de VAUX Seigneur.
386 Hubert de MUNCHENSY.
392 Bueth.
438 William MALET Sheriff of York. William died in 1071.
524 Tewdr ap Cadell.
526 Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn. Rhiwallon ap Cynfyn died in 1068.
Richard Borthwick
thence to 64.
>18 Alan of Allerston.
>19 Alice DESPENCER.
>24 Adam de VAUX.
>26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
>27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
Re: 26 and 27. I have seen an argument (it may have been in Clay) for the
claim that either Reinfrid or his son was connected by marriage to the
Roumare family. Is this connection inferred from strong evidential support
or is it explicitly stated?
32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
>33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
>36 Torfin of Allerston. Torfin died ca 1174/1176.
>38 Roger DESPENCER.
>48 Eustace de VAUX.
>49 ? of Gilsland.
>54 William Earl of Roumare. William died bef 1161.
>55 Hawise de REDVERS. Hawise died aft 1161.
>64 William de HASTINGS.
>65 ? de Windsor.
What is the evidence for the marriage of 64 and 65 and for 65's filiation to
130?
Alan B. Wilson
rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
> At 08:57 PM 22/08/98 GMT, you wrote:
> >In article <35DE8899...@earthlink.net>, ss...@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> >> Alan B. Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <35DCCA...@pacbell.net>, all...@pacbell.net (G . EDWARD
> >> > ALLEN) wrote:
> >> >
> >[large snip]
> >> >
> >4 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1247.
> >5 Amice.
. . .
> >8 Hugh de HASTINGS. Hugh died bef 1204.
> >9 Helen of Allerston. Helen of Allerston died bef 1231.
. . .
> >16 Thomas HASTINGS. Thomas died in 1182/1189.
> What is the evidence for the filiation of 8 to 16 and from 16 to 32 and
> thence to 64.
. . .
> 32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
> >33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
. . .
> >64 William de HASTINGS.
> >65 ? de Windsor.
> What is the evidence for the marriage of 64 and 65 and for 65's filiation to
> 130?
. . .
> >130 Gerald de Windsor Constable of Pembroke.
> > Gerald died bef 1136.
I introduced my intial post in this thread (19 Aug 1998) as follows:
"I have pasted together the following pedigree for Christina de
Hastings from secondary sources of very uneven quality. Many of the
sources I know to be quite unreliable. There is some guesswork included.
So I am quite uncertain about this listing.
"I am posting it not as a 'contribution to knowledge,' but as a plea
for help. Can anyone provide me with corrections or additions or point me
toward more reliable sources for this pedigree?"
I included all of my sources--those I thought to be reliable as well
as those which are notoriously unreliable--in that post.
I really had not expected to be challenged to document linkages after
that introduction, although I expected and hoped to have my errors pointed
out.
Unfortunately I did not reiterate this introduction in subsequent
iterations of this thread. Richard Borthwick, I take it, started the
thread at the last iteration.
Kay Allen on 20 Aug responded to my original request for help. She
provided the citation: "G. Andrews Moriarty, 'The Origin of the
Hastings,' English Origins of New England Families from NEHGS Register,
1st series, Vol. II: 686-696:"
This was followed by the following pedigree (which I have pruned):
4. Thomas of Crosby Ravensworth; d. before 1247.
5. Amice.
8. Hugh of Gissing, Norfolk; d. ca. 1203; md. ca. 1194/5.
9. Helena de Alveston of Alveston and Crosby Ravensworth, Westmoreland; d.
before 1231.
16. Thomas of Gissing, Norfolk; d. 1182-89.
32. Hugh, d. before 1166.
33. Erneburga de Flamville.
64. William.
65. de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor.
I added the "de Hastings" to 4, 8, 16, 32, and 64. Perhaps this was
rash. Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, refers to 4 and 8 as "Thomas de
Hastings" and "Hugh de Hastings," dead 1203. VCH, Yorks N. Riding, ii,
421, also says Helen (#9) m. "Hugh de Hastings" (#8).
While the sources in my original post for the Hastings line were not
what I'd consider to be reliable, I'd hardly describe Kay Allen or
Moriarty as unreliable. However, I have not yet seen the Moriarty essay
to see what his sources were.
> >12 Walter FitzAdam de STRICKLAND. Walter died in 1236/1239.
> >13 Christina FitzReinfrid.
. . .
> >26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
> >27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
> Re: 26 and 27. I have seen an argument (it may have been in Clay) for the
> claim that either Reinfrid or his son was connected by marriage to the
> Roumare family. Is this connection inferred from strong evidential support
> or is it explicitly stated?
My source for that marriage was Henry Hornyold. Genealogical memoirs
of the Stricklands of Sizergh: being a brief account of the family and
its branches. Kendal: Titus Wilson, 1928. I saw this years ago on a FHL
tape.
Be that as it may, I gather that Christiana, wife of Walter de
Strickland was "de Leteham," heiress of Great Strickland, Westmoreland,
and not a daughter of any FitzReinfrid. See. S. H. Lee Washington, "The
early history of the Stricklands of Sizergh" NEHGR xcvi (April,
1942)99-126, and Moriarty's introductory comments on p. 100. So I should
remove 26 and 27 (and their forebears 54-55, 108-111, 218-223, and 438)
from this pedigree for Christina de Hastings,
Maybe eventually this will be pruned and revised into a reasonably
accurate pedigree for Christina de Hastings. That was my original hope.
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> In article <35DCCA...@pacbell.net>, all...@pacbell.net (G . EDWARD
> ALLEN) wrote:
>
> >
> > Your sources 188, Sheppard, Ancestry of Edward Carleton..; 482, Page,
> > VCH Yorks., North Riding; 483, Clay, Early Yorkshire Families; are
> > fairly good sources and I would trust them.
> >
> > Have you consulted Clay's Early Yorkshire Charters for any assistence?
> >
> > New England Families from NEHGS Register, 1st series, Vol. II: 686-696:
> >
> > 2. Thomas de Hastings of Crosby Ravensworth, d. bef. 1286.
> > 3. Christina, probable daughter,
> > 5. Amice.
> > 8. Hugh of Gissing, Norfolk; d. ca. 1203; md. ca. 1194/5.
> > 9. Helena de Alveston of Alveston and Crosby Ravensworth, Westmoreland;
> > d. before 1231.
> > 13. Christina de Letham.
> > Westmoreland, a descendan5 of Arkill Egfridson, the great Yorkshire
> > thegn of the Conqueror's time.
> > 33. Erneburga de Flamville.
> > 64. William.
> > 65. de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor.
> > Leicestershire.
> >
> > These families can be found in VCH Leics., Warwick., Northants.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
> > 130. Walter fitz Other de Windsor.
> > 36. Torfin de Alveston.
>
> Kay,
>
> Many thanks. This is very helpful. I've made some (at least
> tentative) revisions based on your listing which, I take it, reflects
> Moriarty's essay which I have not seen.
>
> (2) I deleted William (my former #32) who was based only on Burke
> and the Duchess of Cleveland. But this was also the way the Hastings
> discussed in Complete Peerage, ancestors of the Earls of Pembroke, were
> tied in. Do you know how or if there is a connection between these
> Hastings lines? If I look up Gissing, Norfolk, in VCH am I likely to find
> some confirmation of this Hastings line?
If VCH Norfolk does cover Gissing, it should confirm this. Also try
Blomefield's Norfolk.
This is the connection according to Moriarty:
1. William de Hastings, succeeded brother Henry in 1194. Ancestor of
Earls of Pembroke.
2. William de Hastings; d. before 1 April 1182.
3. Maud Banastre.
4. Hugh de Hastings; d. before 1166.
5. Erneburga de Flamville.
6. Thurstan le Bannastre of Shropshire.
>
> (3) You show as #65 a NN de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor
> and as daughter of Walter FitzOther. I had thought Walter had three
> sons: William, progenetor of the constables of Windsor and later Lords
> Windsor; Robert, lord of Little Easton, Essex; and Gerald FitzWalter,
> progenitor of the barons of Offaly, Earls of Kildare, etc. I assumed that
> a sister of Maurice would be a daughter of Gerald FitzWalter and
> granddaughter of Walter FitzOther. Was there another son, Maurice that I
> didn't know about?
Robert of Little Easton is not a son of FitzOther. He is son of William
de Hastings of Little Easton. He is supposed to have married a daughter
of William de Windsor. I have not had a chance to read the two articles
extant on Little Easton. In a later article, Moriarty said this line
needed more work. In English Origins of New England Families from NEHGS
Register Vol. III:47, he reverses himself based in Landon and makes
Robert son of Walter and brother of Maurice, dapifer of Bury St.
Edmunds. I think that the Smith article must be reviewed before any
definitive statement may be made. These articles are:
Landon, L. "The Barony of Little Easton and the Family of Hastings", EAT
n.s. xix: 174-79.
This source appears to make Erneburga sister of Hugh and daughter of
Roger.
Smith, J.A.C. "Hastings of Little Easton." EAT 3rd series ii. I:101.
This appears to be a later work and may supersede Landon.
The original article was The Ancestor II:91-7, which refers to an
article,"The Rise and Race of Hastings," Archaeological Journal (1869),
xxvi. 12-9, 121-36, 236-56, by G.T. Clark, and corrects it. He makes
William, Robert, Maurice and Gerald, sons of Walter FitzOther.
In any case, the Hastings pedigree is unchanged. It is only the de
Windsor and Flamville portions which have problems which need to be
explored.
>
> Anyhow, these revisions lead to the following tentative pedigree.
> Are there further
>
> 32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
> 33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
> 36 Torfin of Allerston. Torfin of Allerston died ca 1174/1176.
> 38 Roger DESPENCER.
> 48 Eustace de VAUX.
> 49 ? of Gilsland.
> 54 William Earl of Roumare. William died bef 1161; he was 65.
> 55 Hawise de REDVERS. Hawise died aft 1161.
> 64 William de HASTINGS.
> 65 ? de Windsor.
> 66 Hugh de FLAMVILLE. Hugh died in 1212.
> 72 Uctred of Allerston.
> 96 Hubert de VAUX. Hubert died in 1164.
> 97 Grace ?.
> 98 Bueth of Gilsland.
> 108 Roger FitzGerold de Roumare.
> 109 Countess Lucy.
> 110 Richard de REDVERS Earl of Devon. Richard died on 8 Sep 1107.
> 111 Adelize PEVERIL. Adelize died on 27 May 1156.
> 130 Gerald de Windsor Constable of Pembroke. Gerald de Windsor
> died bef 1136.
> 131 Nesta ferch Rhys.
> 132 Roger de FLAMVILLE. Roger died bef 1170.
> 133 Ivetta (Juetta) de ARCHES. Ivetta (Juetta) died in 1206.
Moriarty makes Erneburga dtr of Hugh without reference to Roger.
It is Landon who appears to make this connection as Ernburga dtr. of
Roger and Ivetta and sister of Hugh. I would recommend checking the
Smith article; Eyton's Antiquities of Shropshire V:137, 152; VCH
Leicestershire; VCH Warwickshire for the Flamvilles. There may also be
material in VCH Bucks. The only thing which may be stated with certainty
is that Ernburga's uncle was Robert. And right now, I am prepared to
doubt that :-)
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
Richard Borthwick
>>Resent-Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:41:52 -0700 (PDT)
>>Old-To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Date: 23 Aug 1998 23:30:53 GMT
>>From: abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu (Alan B. Wilson)
>>Organization: UCB
>>Sender: GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com
>>References: <1.5.4.32.1998082...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
>>Subject: Re: Hastings Pedigree
>>Resent-Message-ID: <"gz4CjC.A.uw.xiK41"@bl-30.rootsweb.com>
>>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-From: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>X-Mailing-List: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/10486
>>X-Loop: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>>Resent-Sender: GEN-MEDIEVA...@rootsweb.com
>>
>>In article <1.5.4.32.1998082...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>,
>>rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
>>
>>> At 08:57 PM 22/08/98 GMT, you wrote:
>>> >In article <35DE8899...@earthlink.net>, ss...@earthlink.net wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> > In article <35DCCA...@pacbell.net>, all...@pacbell.net (G . EDWARD
>>> >> > ALLEN) wrote:
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>
>>> >4 Thomas de HASTINGS. Thomas died bef 1247.
>>> >5 Amice.
>>. . .
>>> >8 Hugh de HASTINGS. Hugh died bef 1204.
>>> >9 Helen of Allerston. Helen of Allerston died bef 1231.
>>. . .
>>> >16 Thomas HASTINGS. Thomas died in 1182/1189.
>>> What is the evidence for the filiation of 8 to 16 and from 16 to 32 and
>>> thence to 64.
>>. . .
>>> >33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE.
>>> >64 William de HASTINGS.
>>> >65 ? de Windsor.
>>> 130?
>>. . .
>>
>> I introduced my intial post in this thread (19 Aug 1998) as follows:
>> "I have pasted together the following pedigree for Christina de
>>Hastings from secondary sources of very uneven quality. Many of the
>>sources I know to be quite unreliable. There is some guesswork included.
>>So I am quite uncertain about this listing.
>> "I am posting it not as a 'contribution to knowledge,' but as a plea
>>for help. Can anyone provide me with corrections or additions or point me
>>toward more reliable sources for this pedigree?"
>> I included all of my sources--those I thought to be reliable as well
>>as those which are notoriously unreliable--in that post.
>> I really had not expected to be challenged to document linkages after
>>that introduction, although I expected and hoped to have my errors pointed
>>out.
>> Unfortunately I did not reiterate this introduction in subsequent
>>iterations of this thread. Richard Borthwick, I take it, started the
>>thread at the last iteration.
>> Kay Allen on 20 Aug responded to my original request for help. She
>>Hastings,' English Origins of New England Families from NEHGS Register,
>>1st series, Vol. II: 686-696:"
>>5. Amice.
>>9. Helena de Alveston of Alveston and Crosby Ravensworth, Westmoreland; d.
>>before 1231.
>>33. Erneburga de Flamville.
>>64. William.
>>65. de Windsor, sister of Maurice de Windsor.
>>rash. Clay, Early Yorkshire Families, refers to 4 and 8 as "Thomas de
>>Hastings" and "Hugh de Hastings," dead 1203. VCH, Yorks N. Riding, ii,
>>421, also says Helen (#9) m. "Hugh de Hastings" (#8).
>> While the sources in my original post for the Hastings line were not
>>what I'd consider to be reliable, I'd hardly describe Kay Allen or
>>Moriarty as unreliable. However, I have not yet seen the Moriarty essay
>>to see what his sources were.
The aim of my questions was not to impugn the reliability of Kay allen or G
A Moriarty, it was to seek some details. Indeed, the information you and Kay
Allen reported gave rise to anticipation and some excitement on my part. The
early Hastings pedigree has at least two traditional forms which contain
mistakes and in places contradict each other. From Kay Allen's information
it seems that most of the issues may have been resolved by the Moriarty and
VCH references I had failed to note. My interest is in the sources used and
arguments advanced by Moriarty. It had seemed to me that the transmission of
the Crosby Ravensworth and Gissing fees might yield a solution to the
problems in the pedigree (as I noted in a much earlier post). As far as I
know we don't yet have the VCH Cumberland volume dealing with Crosby
Ravensworth or that for VCH Norfolk dealing with Gissing. I know Moriarty
did much original and valuable work on northern families and so his analysis
on this matter demands careful consideration. I don't have access to the
Moriarty article but I surmised that either you or Kay Allen did. Hence the
questions.
>>> >12 Walter FitzAdam de STRICKLAND. Walter died in 1236/1239.
>>> >13 Christina FitzReinfrid.
>>. . .
>>> >26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
>>> >27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
>>> Re: 26 and 27. I have seen an argument (it may have been in Clay) for the
>>> claim that either Reinfrid or his son was connected by marriage to the
>>> Roumare family. Is this connection inferred from strong evidential support
>>> or is it explicitly stated?
>>
>> My source for that marriage was Henry Hornyold. Genealogical memoirs
>>of the Stricklands of Sizergh: being a brief account of the family and
>>its branches. Kendal: Titus Wilson, 1928. I saw this years ago on a FHL
>>tape.
>> Be that as it may, I gather that Christiana, wife of Walter de
>>Strickland was "de Leteham," heiress of Great Strickland, Westmoreland,
>>and not a daughter of any FitzReinfrid. See. S. H. Lee Washington, "The
>>early history of the Stricklands of Sizergh" NEHGR xcvi (April,
>>1942)99-126, and Moriarty's introductory comments on p. 100. So I should
>>remove 26 and 27 (and their forebears 54-55, 108-111, 218-223, and 438)
>>from this pedigree for Christina de Hastings,
>>
>> Maybe eventually this will be pruned and revised into a reasonably
>>accurate pedigree for Christina de Hastings. That was my original hope.
>>
G . EDWARD ALLEN
>
> At 08:57 PM 22/08/98 GMT, you wrote:
> >In article <35DE8899...@earthlink.net>, ss...@earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> >> Alan B. Wilson wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <35DCCA...@pacbell.net>, all...@pacbell.net (G . EDWARD
> >> > ALLEN) wrote:
> >> >
> >[large snip]
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Alan B. Wilson
> >> > abwi...@uclink2.ber
> >16 Thomas HASTINGS. Thomas died in 1182/1189.
> What is the evidence for the filiation of 8 to 16 and from 16 to 32 and
> thence to 64.
I will mention Moriarty's sources starting with William who married the
sister of Maurice de Windsor the dapifer of Bury St. Edmunds.
J. Horace Round, The Ancestor Vol.2: 92-93, giving charter evidence
concerning Maurice and his nephew Ralph de Hastings who was brother of
Hugh.
Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire, V:135.
Hall,ed.; Red Book. Shows Ralf holding same fees as Maurice de Windsor.
Mon. Ang., 1st ed., vol. II:551 and Tanner, Not. Yorks., LVIII show a
gift to the Templars of land at Templehurst in West Riding Yorkshire by
Ralf and his nephew William. Ralf d. 1166. Hugh predeceased him before
1152.
Hugh married Ernburga Flamville. So if Alleged son William wound up with
both Maurice de Windsor's fee and the Flamville lands, this would be a
strong circumstantial case for those filiations.
"About 1166 William de Hastings succeeded to the dapifership of St.
Edmund's. Henry II confirmed to William de Hastings, 'my despenser', the
dapifership of St. Edmund's as it had been held by his paternal uncle,
Ralf, and by the latter's maternal uncle ( i.e. William's grandmother's
brother), Maurice de Windsor (Clark, op. cit.; [this is Rise of Hastings
mentioned in Round's article, which Moriarty defends, 'which has, with
some justice been criticized by Dr. Round... . It must be observed,
however, that while the pedigree compiled by Dr. Clark contains serious
errors, all students of the family owe him a lasting debt for the great
amount of original source material collected by him, which is of vital
importance to the study of this house. It is to be regretted that Dr.
Round himself never undertook to compile the Hastings pedigree.']Josceln
de Braklond, Chron., Camden Soc.; Page's Suffolk Traveller; Round.), and
the same King confirmed to William de Hastings his inheritance which
came from his grandfather, William de Hastings, and from Hugh Hastings
his father, in the time of Henry I, and also the lands given to Robert
de Flamville by Robert de Limesi, Bishop of Coventry (Bishop,
1100-1117), which came from his mother Ernberga de Flamville (Eyton's
Shropshire V:137, 151). Dugdale in his Baronage (Vol. I:574), cites from
the collections of Robert Glover, Somerset Herald, the confirmation by
Henry II to his dapifer William de Hastings, of the fees of Burbache,
Barewell, and Birdingbury, with their appurtenances, i.e. Scerescleve
(Sketchley) and Eston (Aston-Flamville), and Stapleton, together with
his houses in Coventry, with a burges ther and a croft in Wilie to hold
by service of two kts. fees freely as Henry I gave them to his father,
Hugh de Hastings, with Erneburga, daughter of Hugh de Flamville; and he
also confirmed to him the lands of William de Hastings, his grandfather,
and of Hugh his father, which they held in the time of Henry I." These
evidences are probably to be found in one of the rolls sereies which
have been published.
These lands descended in the senior line. Our Thomas is head of the
junior line which we are following. "On 1 April 1182 Thomas de Hastings
appeared befor the Abbot of St. Edmund's, leading 'his nephew Henry de
Hastings', who was not yet a knight, and demanded for him his hereditary
office of dapifer of the Abbey (Brakelond, op. cit., pp. 116, 117, 118;
Eyton V: 138; Clark, op. cit.)."This would tend to show that Hugh and
Erneberga had a younger son, Thomas.
Hastings Manuscripts, Hist. MSS Comm., 1925, Vol. I:206, gives the gift
of Gissing, Norfolk to Thomas and the confirmation to his son, Hugh.
I hope this helps,
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
>
> >18 Alan of Allerston.
> >19 Alice DESPENCER.
> >24 Adam de VAUX.
> >26 Roger FitzReinfrid.
> >27 Hawise (Rohaise) de Roumare.
> Re: 26 and 27. I have seen an argument (it may have been in Clay) for the
> claim that either Reinfrid or his son was connected by marriage to the
> Roumare family. Is this connection inferred from strong evidential support
> or is it explicitly stated?I don't know, but you might look at NEHGR 96; NEHGR 93; NEHGR 114; NEHGR
115.
Kay Allen AG
>
> 32 Hugh de HASTINGS Lord of Fillongley.
> >33 Erneburga de FLAMVILLE
> >64 William de HASTINGS.
> >65 ? de Windsor.
> What is the evidence for the marriage of 64 and 65 and for 65's filiation to
> 130?
Please see above commentary under 16.
Kay Allen AG all...@pacbell.net
> >
> >
> >
Richard Borthwick
It certainly does. Many thanks.
You state in your previous post:
"Robert of Little Easton is not a son of FitzOther. He is son of William
de Hastings of Little Easton. He is supposed to have married a daughter
of William de Windsor. I have not had a chance to read the two articles
extant on Little Easton. In a later article, Moriarty said this line
needed more work. In English Origins of New England Families from NEHGS
Register Vol. III:47, he reverses himself based in Landon and makes
Robert son of Walter and brother of Maurice, dapifer of Bury St.
Edmunds. I think that the Smith article must be reviewed before any
definitive statement may be made. These articles are:
"Landon, L. "The Barony of Little Easton and the Family of Hastings", EAT
n.s. xix: 174-79.
"This source appears to make Erneburga sister of Hugh and daughter of
Roger.
"Smith, J.A.C. "Hastings of Little Easton." EAT 3rd series ii. I:101.
This appears to be a later work and may supersede Landon.
"The original article was The Ancestor II:91-7, which refers to an
article,"The Rise and Race of Hastings," Archaeological Journal (1869),
xxvi. 12-9, 121-36, 236-56, by G.T. Clark, and corrects it. He makes
William, Robert, Maurice and Gerald, sons of Walter FitzOther."
A propos of the Little Easton fee Sanders (*English Baronies* p.130) gives
the following account. The fee was held at Domesday by Walter the Deacon and
then passed "for reasons unknown" to Robert (d.about 1128) younger son of
Walter fitz Other of Eton, Bucks who left a son William (d.1162/66) who "may
have left a da. and h. Isabel". Isabel m. Robert de Hastings (d.about 1190)
leaving a dau. and heir Alice. Sanders refers to, inter alia, VCH Essex, i,
p.548 and to Landon's article and is overall rather tentative about the way
the fee passed.
Reedpcgen
Windsor/Geraldines and their early relationships.
I would not trust any secondary source where they are involved. Rely only on
primary documents and the evidence contained therein. Round generally knew his
charters, but was not infallible. Hopefully someone will someday do a very
careful study of this family, which had prominent branches in both England and
Ireland.
Also, somewhere there is an article which shows the origin of Otho/Other and
his family to ultimately be Italy.
pcr