Mabel de Muscegros, wife of Hervey de Stafford & Robert de Li sle, CP correction?
Douglas Richardson
As a partial answer to your post dated June 2003, I believe we can be
reasonably certain that Mabel, wife of Robert de Lisle, was a
Muscegros. As I recall, a contemporary medieval record refers to
Mabel de Lisle as "lady of Finborough." Finborough can be identified
as the manor of Finborough, Suffolk, which property was held by
Mabel's maternal grandfather, William Malet, the Magna Carta baron.
The manor descended from William Malet to his daughter and co-heiress,
Hawise (Malet) Muscegros, and thence onto the Lisle family, doubtless
as Mabel's maritagium.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
From: Chris Phillips (c...@medievalgenealogy.org.uk)
Subject: Re: Mabel de Muscegros, wife of Hervey de Stafford & Robert
de Li sle, CP correction?
View: Complete Thread (3 articles)
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Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
Date: 2003-06-19 13:27:31 PST
Jim Weber wrote:
<<
CP VIII:70 states that Robert de Lisle m. 1stly before 1252, Mabel,
widow
of Hervey, baron of Stafford (d. 1241), and daughter of Sir Robert de
Muscegros, of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter and coheir of Sir William
Malet, of Curry Malet.
CP XII/1:171 has "Hervey de Stafford, son and heir. He m. Mabel,
daughter of Richard de Mucegros. He dsp. before 7 Oct 1241, having
left
a will. Mabel survived him and was living in Apr. 1242.
These don't seem to agree with each other. And Volume XIV didn't do a
very good job in trying to make them agree.
Volume XIV:589, in its cook-book fashion, corrects the Hervey de
Stafford
entry by inserting after Mucegros ", of Charlton, by Hawise, daughter
and
coheir of Sir William Malet, of Curry Mallet.". XIV also inserts
after
1242,
"Mabel m. 2ndly, Robert de Lisle, who d. 1284." Volume XIV cited the
Lisle entry in volume VIII:70 as the source for making the correction.
Superficially XIV didn't change the name from Mucegros to Muscegros,
nor did it change Richard to Robert, nor did it change Mabel's death
date
of "living Apr 1242" to something indicating she was married again
"before 1252".
But more importantly, I am not sure that the two entries are talking
about
the same Mabel. I believe that Richard de Muscegros was father of
Robert de Muscegros, in which case XII/1:171 might be indicating that
the Mabel who was wife of Hervey de Stafford was one generation
earlier
and an aunt of the Mabel who married Robert de Lisle. Hervey de
Stafford died in 1241, while Robert de Lisle was the son of a "bef.
Feb
1239/40" marriage and was of age before 1264 when he obtained a
charter. It doesn't make sense for a woman to marry as a 2nd husband,
a man who might not have quite been born when her 1st husband died.
>>
I've had a look at some of the relevant records, and at least it is
clear
that Mabel the wife of Hervey de Stafford is described as the daughter
of
Robert, not Richard, de Muscegros.
This comes in the form of an order, dated 29 April 1242 to the sheriff
of
Staffordshire that Mabel the daughter of Robert de "Mucegros" who was
the
wife of Hervey de Stafford was to have full seisin of the custody of
the
land which was of Ralph de Mutton in Ingerstreht, Grettewich' and in
Rowell'
which the same Hervey left to Mabel in his last will.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1237-42, p. 418; 26 Henry III Part I, m. 4;
the
leaving of lands to his wife is mentioned by CP]
Mabel the wife of Robert de Insula (de Lisle) is also stated to be the
daughter of Sir Robert de Muscegros in the transaction dated 17 May
1271,
referred to by CP, by which Robert and Mavel quitclaim to Sir John de
Muscegros 10 librates of land which they hold of him in Kenemerton,
which
Mabel had in free marriage of the gift of her father, Robert de
Muscegros.
I haven't seen a record which explicitly speaks of the same Mabel
being wife
of both Hervey and Robert, but it seems reasonabe to assume they were
the
same woman. In any case, vol. 14 wasn't guilty of trying to force a
Mabel
daughter of Richard into the same shoes as Mabel daughter of Robert.
It may
be that some more searching would find definite evidence that Robert's
wife
held land in Ingestre, Gratwich or Rowley, left to her by Hervey, or
conversely that the wife of Hervey held the marriage portion in
Kemerton.
There is also an interesting indication that - as I interpret it -
Mabel had
a sister, who was married to one Geoffrey de Ambely:
(1) 5 October 1245, Richard de Munfichet was ordered to cause Geoffrey
de
Ambely to have 3 deer in the forest of Essex for the feast to
celebrate the
bringing home of the daughter of Robert de Muscegros his wife, of the
king's
gift.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1242-1247, p. 343; 29 Henry III, m. 1;
indexed as
"gift of deer for his feast when he brings his bride home"]
(2) 2 August 1252, the sheriff of Essex is ordered, when F. the bishop
of
London shall have signified to him by his letters patent that the
testament
of Isabella de Aumbley has been lawfully proved before him, and that
she has
left to Mabel the wife of Robert de Insula her corn sown in her dower
land
in Nortun', and that he should not allow Walter son of Robert or
others to
hinder Robert and Mabel from collecting the corn and disposing of it
at
will.
[Calendar of Close Rolls 1251-1253, p. 239; 36 Henry III, m. 9d]
Perhaps there's another interpretation, but this suggests to me that
Isabella was the widow of Geoffrey de Ambely, and had left the corn on
her
dower land to Mabel, her sister.
Chris Phillips