Oliver Cromwell`s Royal Ancestors

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Jwc...@aol.com

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Nov 27, 2010, 8:41:20 PM11/27/10
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Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
Major Goof . I found my notes on
the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of Joan Tudor, parentless or
otherwise. It gives the Williams line as follows
Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams who married Joan
Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams who married
Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and
Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the father
of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell, their son Sir
Richard assumed the additional surname of Cromwell married Frances Murfyn and
had Sir Henry Cromwell married Joan , daughter of Sir Ralph Warren, Lord
Mayor of London, his son Robert Cromwell died 1617 married Elizabeth, sister
of Sir Robert Stewart of Ely. they were Oliver Cromwell`s parents the John
Williams who married the Margaret Smyth above had twio sons John Williams
who married Joan Wykes and Richard Williams who married 2nd Christian NN
who had by him a son John Williams who by a unknown wife had a son William
Williams He married 1st Jane Shepherd and 2nd Jane Woodward by the 2nd
wife he had Richard Williams who married Frances Deighton and migrated to
Massachusetts..

Leo Van de Pas kindly emailed me about a royal descent Henry I , King of
England - Robert de Caen,1st Earl of Gloucester married Mabel Fitz Robert -
Maud of Gloucester married Ranulf de Mechines, Earl of Chester - Hugh,
Earl of Chester married Bertrada de Montfort- Mabel of Chester married
William d`Aubigny, 3rd Earl of Arundel - Nichola d`Aubigny married Roger de
Somery - Margaret de Somery married Ralph IV de Cromwell- Ralph V de Cromwell
married Joan Somerville, daughter of Robert de Somerville and Isabel,
daughter of Roger de Merlay (I think this is Roger III who Douglas Richardson
discovered was married to Isabel de Roos, which gives a descent from
William I of Scotland) - Ralph VI de Cromwell married Joan de la Mare - Ralph
VII Cromwell married Anice de Bellers - Ulker Cromwell - Richard Cromwell-
John Cromwell - Robert Cromwell killed in battle in 1461 (? Towton) had at
least two children William Cromwell who married Margaret Smyth and
Margaret Cromwell who married William Smyth - John Cromwell married his 1st cousin
Joan Smyth - Walter Cromwell married a daughter of Glossop - Katherine
Cromwell who married Morgan II Williams , so through Margaret (Cromwell)
Smyth, Richard Williams of Taunton, Massachusetts descended from both King
Henry I of England and King William I of Scotland and Oliver Cromwell has an
additional descent through each through her brother William Cromwell.
Sincerely,
James
W Cummings

Dixmont, Maine USA

John

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Nov 27, 2010, 10:47:57 PM11/27/10
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Can you give a specific citation for the NEHGR article regarding the
Williams ancestry? I believe a somewhat different version can be
constructed from various compilations of Welsh pedigrees, but I need
to do more work on this.

As to the supposed Cromwell ancestry and the connection to the earlier
Cromwell family, this has been posted here before (long ago) but
without any sources to support it. Leo's database also shows this
line but again without any supporting sources. Can anyone validate
this supposed lineage?

A much more limited ancestry for Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and
his sister Catherine, extending back only to their great-grandfather
William Cromwell of Norwell, near Cromwell and Carlton-on-Trent,
Nottinghamshire, can be found in Rev. Frederick George Lee,"The
History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the
Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame" (London, 1883). It does not include the
supposed connection to the earlier Cromwell family. Barring better
evidence, I continue to think that this latter connection is a Tudor-
era invention. In particular, the 4 generations starting with Ulker
Cromwell seem questionable.

CE Wood

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Nov 27, 2010, 11:23:41 PM11/27/10
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NEHGR 51:209-212


CE Wood

pj.evans

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Nov 27, 2010, 11:39:30 PM11/27/10
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On Nov 27, 7:47 pm, John <jhiggins...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Burke's _Dormant and Extinct Peerages_ says of Richard Williams alias
Cromwell only that he was connected in some way to Thomas Cromwell.
The Tudors are not mentioned as connected to Richard by birth or
marriage, and I think if there were such a connection it would appear
in Burke.

Hal Bradley

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Nov 28, 2010, 12:06:57 AM11/28/10
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The purported ancestry of Richard Williams and his connection to Morgan
Williams appears to be incorrct. According to Holman's article, "English
Ancestry of Richard Williams and His Wife Frances (Deighton) Williams," The
American Genealogist 9:3 (Jan 1933), pp. 137, 141:


"Several times a lineage has been printed puporting to prove that John
Williams, grandfather of our Richard, was son of a Richard Williams
(1487-1559), of Monmouthshire; grandson of a John Williams who was Steward
of Wimbledon Manor in Surrey; great-grandson of a Thomas Williams of
Glamorgan, who in turn was a son of Morgan Williams of Glamorgan. But the
College of Arms states that this lineage cannot be correct as Thomas, the
son of Morgan Williams, adopted the surname of Lloyd. The College of Arms in
their report adds further:


"It seems that little reliance can be placed on the pedigree printed in the
'New England Register,' vol. 51, pp. 210-2, as the researches then carried
out were made with the object of supporting the preconceived idea that a
connection existed with the family of Cromwell alias Williams."

Richard Williams' ancestry has not been proven beyond his grandfather, John
Williams.

Hal Bradley

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WJho...@aol.com

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Nov 28, 2010, 12:55:00 AM11/28/10
to woo...@msn.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
In a message dated 11/27/2010 8:25:07 PM Pacific Standard Time,
woo...@msn.com writes:


>
> NEHGR 51:209-212
>

http://books.google.com/books?id=hcgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA210

Jwc...@aol.com

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Nov 28, 2010, 9:30:39 AM11/28/10
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Dear John,
I found in Google books NEHGR 51: 209-212 (1897) a
copy of the article entitled " Richard Williams of Taunton and his connection
with the Cromwell family. It was submitted by Josiah H Drummond and based
on the research funded and ? Partially done by Governor Joseph Hartwell
Williams who had died in the previous year. A certain John Philips, C. E. of
Putney., Surrey created the chart of the Cromwell lineage in 1894. The
questioned generations are Ulker Cromwell of Hucknall Torkard, Notts, his son
Richard of Hucknall Torkard, his son John Cromwell had lease of Cromwell
House , Carleton on Trent, Notts which continued with his son Robert Cromwell
,a Lancastrian killed at the battle on Towton, his son William was
dispossessed by Sir Humphrey Bourchier,, later Baron Cromwell a Yorkist whose wife
Joan Stanhope was a daughter of Sir Richard Stanhope and Maud , daughter
of Ralph IX Cromwell, 2nd Baron Cromwell and his wife Joan.

WJho...@aol.com

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Nov 28, 2010, 2:37:28 PM11/28/10
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In a message dated 11/28/2010 6:31:05 AM Pacific Standard Time,
Jwc...@aol.com writes:

I would say the next step, should anyone be so bold (or foolish) would be
to find actual primary references to any of these people.
We're given enough clues to be able to determine if a person named Ulker
Cromwell even existed, and if so where and when.
Anyone want to take this bait?

W

John

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Nov 28, 2010, 4:37:31 PM11/28/10
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As you indicate, the NEHGR article is based solely on the chart by
John Phillips of Putney, and we have no idea what the sources are for
the chart. Josiah H. Drummond, the submitter of the NEHGR article,
indicates that the Cromwell line prepared by Phillips for Gov.
Williams had already been published elsewhere (although he does not
say where) and thus he does not treat that line in detail. The other
publication of the Cromwell line MAY be in James Waylen, "The House of
Cromwell", in a revised edition by John Gabriel Cromwell, published in
1897. This item is available at the BYU library website and at Google
Books here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aYBHAAAAYAAJ

The pedigree given by Waylen (unfortunately without sources again)
corresponds in its later generations to the source I mentioned earlier
in this thread, but it extends the pedigree a bit further (without
support) to make a connection to the earlier Cromwell family which is
slightly different than that given by Phillips and recounted by
Drummond in NEHGR.

Another, somewhat earlier source worth considering is Mark Noble,
"Memoirs of the Protectoral House of Cromwell", published in its 2nd
edition in 1787 and available at the BYU library website (but not on
Google Books). This discusses the Cromwell family starting with the
father of Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and continuing through the
descendants of Olver Cromwell, the Lord Protector. Significantly, it
does NOT make any connection with the earlier Cromwell family (the
long series of Ralph Cromwells). So either Noble discounted such a
connection, or the connection was discovered (or, more likely,
created) at a subsequent date.

So far, I see no source that appears to provide satisfactory support
for the royal lineages alleged for Oliver Cromwell.

John

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Nov 28, 2010, 4:55:16 PM11/28/10
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On Nov 27, 5:41 pm, Jwc1...@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Will, Merilyn et alia,
>                                         Major Goof . I found my notes on
> the Williams article in NEHGR. no mention of  Joan Tudor, parentless or
> otherwise.  It gives the Williams line as  follows
>     Howell Williams was the father of Morgan I Williams  who married Joan
> Batton their son Thomas Williams had two children John Williams  who married
> Margaret, daughter of Richard Smyth and granddaughter of William and  
> Margaret (daughter Robert Cromwell) Smyth and William Williams who was the  father
> of Morgan II Williams who married Katherine Cromwell,  

>                                                        Sincerely,


>                                                                       James
> W Cummings
>
> Dixmont, Maine USA

For an ancestry of Morgan Williams, the husband of Catherine Cromwell,
which appears to be supported by standard compilations of Welsh
pedigrees (notably Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies), see this pedigree in
the FHL's Family Search Community Trees database:

http://histfam.familysearch.org/pedigree.php?personID=I33398&tree=Welsh

If you follow the links forward from the elder Morgan (great-
grandfather of this Morgan) and read it in parallel with the NEHGR
article on the supposed Williams line, you can see why the ancestry
proposed for Gov. Williams of Maine in the HENGR article fails, as
indicated by Hal Bradley earlier in this thread.

And definitely no Tudor ancestry for Morgan Williams - which was the
question that started this discussion.

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