Can you give a specific citation for the NEHGR article regarding the
Williams ancestry? I believe a somewhat different version can be
constructed from various compilations of Welsh pedigrees, but I need
to do more work on this.
As to the supposed Cromwell ancestry and the connection to the earlier
Cromwell family, this has been posted here before (long ago) but
without any sources to support it. Leo's database also shows this
line but again without any supporting sources. Can anyone validate
this supposed lineage?
A much more limited ancestry for Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and
his sister Catherine, extending back only to their great-grandfather
William Cromwell of Norwell, near Cromwell and Carlton-on-Trent,
Nottinghamshire, can be found in Rev. Frederick George Lee,"The
History, Description, and Antiquities of the Prebendal Church of the
Blessed Virgin Mary of Thame" (London, 1883). It does not include the
supposed connection to the earlier Cromwell family. Barring better
evidence, I continue to think that this latter connection is a Tudor-
era invention. In particular, the 4 generations starting with Ulker
Cromwell seem questionable.
Burke's _Dormant and Extinct Peerages_ says of Richard Williams alias
Cromwell only that he was connected in some way to Thomas Cromwell.
The Tudors are not mentioned as connected to Richard by birth or
marriage, and I think if there were such a connection it would appear
"Several times a lineage has been printed puporting to prove that John
Williams, grandfather of our Richard, was son of a Richard Williams
(1487-1559), of Monmouthshire; grandson of a John Williams who was Steward
of Wimbledon Manor in Surrey; great-grandson of a Thomas Williams of
Glamorgan, who in turn was a son of Morgan Williams of Glamorgan. But the
College of Arms states that this lineage cannot be correct as Thomas, the
son of Morgan Williams, adopted the surname of Lloyd. The College of Arms in
their report adds further:
"It seems that little reliance can be placed on the pedigree printed in the
'New England Register,' vol. 51, pp. 210-2, as the researches then carried
out were made with the object of supporting the preconceived idea that a
connection existed with the family of Cromwell alias Williams."
Richard Williams' ancestry has not been proven beyond his grandfather, John
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> NEHGR 51:209-212
I would say the next step, should anyone be so bold (or foolish) would be
to find actual primary references to any of these people.
We're given enough clues to be able to determine if a person named Ulker
Cromwell even existed, and if so where and when.
Anyone want to take this bait?
As you indicate, the NEHGR article is based solely on the chart by
John Phillips of Putney, and we have no idea what the sources are for
the chart. Josiah H. Drummond, the submitter of the NEHGR article,
indicates that the Cromwell line prepared by Phillips for Gov.
Williams had already been published elsewhere (although he does not
say where) and thus he does not treat that line in detail. The other
publication of the Cromwell line MAY be in James Waylen, "The House of
Cromwell", in a revised edition by John Gabriel Cromwell, published in
1897. This item is available at the BYU library website and at Google
The pedigree given by Waylen (unfortunately without sources again)
corresponds in its later generations to the source I mentioned earlier
in this thread, but it extends the pedigree a bit further (without
support) to make a connection to the earlier Cromwell family which is
slightly different than that given by Phillips and recounted by
Drummond in NEHGR.
Another, somewhat earlier source worth considering is Mark Noble,
"Memoirs of the Protectoral House of Cromwell", published in its 2nd
edition in 1787 and available at the BYU library website (but not on
Google Books). This discusses the Cromwell family starting with the
father of Thomas Cromwell, Earl of Essex, and continuing through the
descendants of Olver Cromwell, the Lord Protector. Significantly, it
does NOT make any connection with the earlier Cromwell family (the
long series of Ralph Cromwells). So either Noble discounted such a
connection, or the connection was discovered (or, more likely,
created) at a subsequent date.
So far, I see no source that appears to provide satisfactory support
for the royal lineages alleged for Oliver Cromwell.
> W Cummings
> Dixmont, Maine USA
For an ancestry of Morgan Williams, the husband of Catherine Cromwell,
which appears to be supported by standard compilations of Welsh
pedigrees (notably Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies), see this pedigree in
the FHL's Family Search Community Trees database:
If you follow the links forward from the elder Morgan (great-
grandfather of this Morgan) and read it in parallel with the NEHGR
article on the supposed Williams line, you can see why the ancestry
proposed for Gov. Williams of Maine in the HENGR article fails, as
indicated by Hal Bradley earlier in this thread.
And definitely no Tudor ancestry for Morgan Williams - which was the
question that started this discussion.