C.P. Addition: Sir Edmund Thorpe, 5th Lord Thorpe (died 1418), ancestor of Queens Elizabeth I and Katherine Howard

[Douglas Richardson]

Dear Newsgroup ~

Sir Edmund Thorpe, 5th Lord Thorpe, is in the immediate ancestry of
two Tudor Queens, namely Queen Elizabeth I, and her step-mother, Queen
Katherine Howard (wife of King Henry VIII). He is mentioned in both
the Scales and Thorpe accounts in Complete Peerage. Sir Edmund
Thorpe's connection to the Scales family is due to his marriage to
Joan Northwood (died 1415), the widow of Roger de Scales, Knt., 4th
Lord Scales.

Regarding Sir Edmund Thorpe's death date, he is stated in the 1896
edition of Complete Peerage 7 (1896): 72 sub Scales to have died 1 May
1419. See the following weblink for that information:

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y7IKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA72

However, since no documentation is provided for that date, the source
for the date 1 May 1419 is unknown.

In the modern edition of Complete Peerage, no death date whatsoever is
provided for Lord Thorpe in the Scales account [see Complete Peerage,
11 (1949): 503]. So the date 1 May 1419 simply vanishes without
explanation.

However, in the Thorpe account in the modern edition of Complete
Peerage, 12(1) (1953): 724, the following information is provided
regarding Sir Edmund Thorpe's death:

"He is said to have died at the siege of Louviers (June 1418) in
Normandy, and he certainly died s.p.m. before 31 August 1422, being
buried at Ashwellthorpe [Norfolk]." END OF QUOTE.

The following source is given for the statement that Lord Thorpe died
at the siege of Louviers:

"Blomefield (op. cit. , vol. v, pp. 149-50; vol. ix, p. 23) cites the
chroniclers for the statement, which has not been traced." END OF
QUOTE.

As Complete Peerage left it, the exact date of death of Sir Edmund
Thorpe wasn't established, although it was stated that he was "said to
have died" at the Siege of Louviers in June 1418.

Elsewhere I note that Ronald F. McLeod, Massingham Parva Past and
Present (1882): 23-24 includes information regarding the death and
will of Sir Edmund Thorpe. It likewise claims that Sir Edmund Thorpe
died at the Siege of Louviers, with the added detail that he died in
the Siege with his wife's grandson, Robert Scales, Lord Scales.
Unfortunately the information below is unsourced.

"Sir Edmund accompanied Henry when he sailed out of Southampton Water
with 30,000 men for the purpose of renewing the invasion of France;
but he and his wife's grandson, Robert, Lord Scales, a young man of
barely twenty summers, fell mortally at the siege of the Castle of
Louviers soon after landing. Sir Edmund's body was brought to England
and laid in Ashwell-Thorpe Church beside that of his wife, Joan, who
had sickened and died three years before, while England was ringing
with the news of the victory at Agincourt. Lady Joan de Thorpe
became the mother of a son and a daughter by her first husband, Roger,
Lord Scales; by her second, she had two daughters. By his will Sir
Edmund de Thorpe bequeathed the Thorpe and Massingham estates to Joan,
his elder daughter, with a reversion to her sister, Isabel, in the
event of her leaving no issue." END OF QUOTE

McLeod's work may be viewed at the following weblink:

http://books.google.com/books?id=H_IVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA23

Checking Complete Peerage, 11 (1949): 504 (sub Scales), I note that it
indicates that Sir Edmund Thorpe's wife's grandson, Robert Scales, 6th
Lord Scales, died without issue 1 May 1419, citing Ch. Inq. p.m., 7
Henry V, no. 48. In footnote "i" on the same page, it further adds:
"Blomefield (op. cit., vol. ix, p. 23) says that according to the
chroniclers Robert was killed in Normandy. The statement has not been
traced."

So the date 1 May 1419 reappears again, this time tied to an actual
document and the death of Robert Scales, not the death of Sir Edmund
Thorpe.

Regardless, other modern sources claim that Sir Edmund Thorpe died in
1417. See, for example, Elizabeth Harland, Norfolk and the Isle of
Ely (1949): 43 and David Stanford, Norfolk Churches (2007): 8. Yet
Pierre Bouet and Véronique Gazeau, La Normandie et L'Angleterre au
Moyen Age (2003): 304 state without qualification that Sir Edmund
Thorpe died during the siege of Louviers in 1418 ["Mort pendant le
siège de Louviers en 1418.]"

So did Sir Edmund Thorpe die in 1417, June 1418, or 1 May 1419? For
starters, Sir Edmund Thorpe can't have died in 1417, as Complete
Peerage shows he was still living 28 April 1418, when he was appointed
a commissioner to redress infractions of the truce between the king
and the Duke of Burgundy. As for the date of the siege of Louviers
(Eure), Allmand, Henry V, pg. 121 indicates that it occurred in June
1418, as stated by Complete Peerage.

We saw above that McLeod made reference to Sir Edmund Thorpe's will.
Fortunately, there is a modern transcript of Sir Edmund Thorpe's will
published in E.F. Jacob, ed., Register of Henry Chichele, Archbishop
of Canterbury, 1414-1443, volume 2 (Canterbury & York Soc. 42) (1937):
143–149 (will of Sir Edmund Thorpe). There is also a short biography
of Sir Edmund Thorpe in the same book on page 679, which states that
Sir Edmund Thorpe was killed at the siege of Louviers in June 1418.

The will of Sir Edmund Thorpe is in two parts, a testament dated 1 May
1417, proved 20 Sept. 1418, and a will dated 1 May 1417. The
testament is in Latin, the will in French. In the testament, Sir
Edmund mentions his late wives, Joan and Margaret. He leaves bequests
to his two daughters, Lady Joan de Clifton and Isabel Tyltey [i.e.,
Tilney]; his brothers, John Thorpe and Robert [no surname]. In the
will, Sir Edmund names his daughters, Joan and Isabel; his nephew, Guy
Corbet; his niece, Lady Joan Grey; Elizabeth, sister of the said Guy
Corbet and Joan Grey; his late wife, Joan; his nephews, Edmund and
John, sons of his brother, Robert Thorp, and Maud his first wife; his
brother, John Thorp, Master of Divinity; the debts of his parents and
his brother, George; and the executors of his brother, Thomas.

While the chroniclers cited by Blomefield haven't been located which
state that Sir Edmund Thorpe died at the Siege of Louviers in June
1418, the will of Sir Edmund Thorpe confirms that he died before 20
Sept. 1418. The testament dated 1 May 1417 likewise confirms that his
daughter, Isabel, was married before that date.

For interest's sake, the following is a list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Sir Edmund de Thorpe:

Charles Calvert, Essex Beville, Mary Bourchier, Muriel Gurdon, Anne
Humphrey, Mary Launce, Herbert Pelham, Mary Johanna Somerset, John
West.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

[Douglas Richardson]

On Dec 8, 10:27 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
< Dear Newsgroup ~
<
< Sir Edmund Thorpe, 5th Lord Thorpe, is in the immediate ancestry of
< two Tudor Queens, namely Queen Elizabeth I, and her step-mother,
Queen
< Katherine Howard (wife of King Henry VIII).

Sir Edmund Thorpe, 5th Lord Thorpe (died 1418) is actually in the
immediate ancestry of three Tudor Queens, namely Anne Boleyn (wife of
King Henry VIII), Katherine Howard (wife of King Henry VIII), and
Elizabeth I (daughter of King Henry VIII and Anne Boleyn).