Introducing myself, and a question about Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan
terrence White
I am T.J. "Terry" White, new to this list, and have a question (don't know if it's entirely appropriate for this particular list).
A few months ago, list-member Will Johnson and Adrian [?] had a discussion on the usenet group "The Le Brun Family of Bothel & Torpenhow in Cumberland" regarding one Thomas Browne, who was husband of Eleanor FitzAlan, and M.P. for Kent, in addition to being a member of the royal household of Henry VI (and losing his head in 1460 during the Wars of the Roses).
I believe I may be descended from this Thomas Browne and his wife Eleanor FitzAlan, through their later Lucy descendants of Charlecote, Warwickshire (successive M.P.s for Warwick in the Sixteenth and Seventeenth Centuries). I will show my (abbreviated) lineage--such as I now have it--below, momentarily.
My question is two-fold:
(1) Can anyone point me toward documentation (either in the list archives, or elsewhere) concerning that Thomas Browne and his immediate descendants;
(2) And can anyone point me toward any documentation regarding Daniel Lucy of Jamestown, Virginia (died 1627), who is believed to have been a son of Timothy Lucy (1547-1616) of Warwick (M.P. from Warwick in the 1580s)? This Daniel Lucy (from whom I descend)--if he was indeed a son of Timothy (or from that family generally)--would thus be a descendant of Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan.
This is a new lineage for me, and I am therefore only just now beginning to attempt to document it. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Terry.
_______________________________________
Here's my "lineage" back to Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan (through the somewhat hazy Daniel Lucy/Timothy Lucy connection) Most or all other connections shown appear to be fairly well-documented (excepting some of the dates):
Sir Thomas Browne ======== Eleanor Fitzalan (1402-executed 20 Jul 1460) (c.1428-c.1445)
Sir John Browne of Walcot (c.1445-1 Jan 1498), Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London
Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw (1467-1514)
Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord Mayor, etc.
Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553) === Sir William Lucy (1509-1551)
Timothy Lucy (16 Nov 1547-21 Jan 1616), B.A., Oxford (1567), & Member of Parliament
Daniel Lucy (1592-1627) Born in Warwick(?); died in Jamestown === Abigail [ ]
This Abigail was described in one unsourced reference I have seen as "the Tanner's daughter". This would of course have been a major scandal back then, and may be why Daniel went to Jamestown (social and financial exile). I have noted that he is said to have married Abigail only in 1617, one year after his father had died (if Timothy was indeed his father). Daniel's uncle would have been Sir Thomas Lucy (1532-1600), of the distinguished Warwick family of Charlecote.
Samuel Lucy (1618-1662) Born in Warwick(?); died in Charles City County, Va.
Elizabeth Lucy (1657- )===Phillip Thomas (1652-1730)
Michael Thomas (1673-1743)
Edward Thomas (1715-1769)
Susannah Thomas (1740-1819)===Thomas Stephens (1730-1818)
David Stephens (c.1775-1837)
Nancy Ann Stephens (1812-c1880)===Smith Alexander (1809-c1862)
Thomas Tucker Alexander (1850-1929)
Lillie May Alexander (1881-1974)=== (1) H.P. Kelly (1876-1925)
Martha Darthula Kelly (b.1915--living)===(1) H.S.White Sr. (1915-1943)
Living White (b.1937) [My Dad]
T.J. "Terry" White [myself]
__________________________________________________
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Vance Mead
They were proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury and are at the
Public Record Office.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/
Will of Sir John Browne, Alderman of Saint Mary Magdalen Milk Street,
City of London Date 25 January 1498
Will of William Browne, Alderman of Saint Thomas Acon, City of
London Date 01 July 1514
Will of Richard Fermer or Farmer of Easton Neston, Northamptonshire
Date 03 February 1552
Vance
Douglas Richardson
You might find the information below helpful to your research. Sir
Thomas Browne's wife was Eleanor Arundel, not Eleanor Fitzalan. My
research indicates that the Fitzalan family dropped the surname,
Fitzalan, in favor of Arundel about 1313. Thereafter all members of
the family were known exclusively as Arundel (or de Arundel).
Having said that, I don't believe that Sir Thomas Browne and his wife,
Eleanor Arundel, were the parents of the next generation in your
pedigree, namely Sir John Browne (died 1498), Lord Mayor of London.
So your Browne pedigree would necessarily break at this point.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
+ + + + + + + + + + +
ARUNDEL FAMILY
JOHN OF ENGLAND, King of England, by a mistress, CLEMENCE _____.
JOAN OF ENGLAND, married LLYWELYN AP IORWERTH, Prince of North Wales.
GWLADUS DDU OF WALES, married RALPH DE MORTIMER, of Wigmore,
Herefordshire.
ROGER DE MORTIMER, Knt., of Wigmore, Herefordshire, married MAUD DE
BREWES.
ISABEL DE MORTIMER, married JOHN FITZ ALAN, of Clun and Oswestry,
Shropshire.
RICHARD FITZ ALAN, Knt., Earl of Arundel, married ALICE DE SALUZZO.
EDMUND DE ARUNDEL, Knt., Earl of Arundel, married ALICE DE WARENNE
(desc. Geoffrey Plantagenet).
RICHARD DE ARUNDEL, Earl of Arundel and Surrey, married ELEANOR OF
LANCASTER (desc. King Henry III).
JOHN DE ARUNDEL, Knt., 1st Lord Arundel, married ELEANOR MAUTRAVERS
(desc. King John).
JOHN DE ARUNDEL, Knt., 2nd Lord Arundel, married ELIZABETH LE
DESPENSER (desc. King Edward I).
1. THOMAS ARUNDEL, Knt., of West Betchworth (in Dorking), Surrey, and
Chancton (in Washington) and Shopwick (in Oving), Sussex, Steward of
the Household to King Henry VI, 3rd son. He married JOAN MOYNE,
daughter of Henry Moyne. They had one son, William, and one daughter,
Eleanor. SIR THOMAS ARUNDEL died overseas about 1430-1. His widow,
Joan, married (2nd) before Sept. 1436 John Burden, Esq. They were
both living 1443/4.
References:
Tierney, Hist. & Antiq. of the Castle and Town of Arundel 1 (1834):
chart following 192. Top. & Gen. 2 (1853): 336; 3 (1858): 250-255.
Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex 1552, 1558, 1570, 1612 & 1634 2 (H.S.P.
14) (1879): 731-732 (Misc. Peds.) (Fitz Alan pedigree). Arch.
Cambrensis, 5th Ser. 1 (1884): 219-221 (Fitzalan pedigree). Benolte
et al. Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1613 (H.S.P. 43) (1899): 8-10
(Browne pedigree: "Thomas Fitz Allan of Beechworth Castell in Surrey.
= Joane"). Salzman, Feet of Fines Rel. Sussex 3 (Sussex Rec. Soc. 23)
(1916): 250. VCH Sussex 4 (1953): 165-170; 6(1) (1980): 247-259.
Nottingham Medieval Studies 41 (1997): 126-156.
2. ELEANOR ARUNDEL, married (1st) about 1437-1438 (date of fine)
THOMAS BROWNE, Knt., of Tong, Eythorne, Tunford (in Thanington), and
Kingsnorth, Kent, Compton and Up Marden, Sussex, and, in right of his
wife, of West Betchworth (in Dorking), Surrey and Chancton (in
Washington), Egley (in Oving), and Shopwick (in Oving), Sussex, king's
squire, Treasurer of the Household to King Henry VI, Sheriff of Kent,
son of Richard Browne, Knt. They had seven sons, William, George,
Knt., Thomas, Anthony, Knt., Robert, Esq., Leonard, and Edward, and
two daughters, including Katherine (wife of Humphrey Sackville).
Eleanor was heiress before 1436/7 to her brother, William Arundel.
His wife, Eleanor, was a legatee in the 1459 will of Joan Knowth (or
Knowghte), who bequeathed her the reversion of the manors of Pluckley
and Waldershare, Kent. In the period, 1459-1460, he and his wife,
Eleanor, sued William Norton, feoffee of Richard Malmayn, Esq., in
Chancery regarding the manors of Pluckley and Waldershare, Kent,
bequeathed to the said Eleanor by Jane Knowth, heiress of the said
Richard. SIR THOMAS BROWNE was convicted of high treason 20 July
1460, and immediately beheaded. His widow, Eleanor, married (2nd)
shortly before 18 Oct. 1460 THOMAS VAUGHAN, Knt., in right of his
wife, of Chancton (in Washington), Compton, Egley (in Oving), Shopwick
(in Oving), and Up Marden, Sussex, Esquire of the Body to King Edward
IV, 1450-1459, 1462-1475, Master of the Ordnance, 1450-1461, Burgess
(M.P.) for Marlboro, 1455-1456, Keeper of the Great Wardrobe, 1460-
1461, Sheriff of Surrey and Sussex, 1466-1467, Treasurer of the King's
Chamber, 1467-1482, Keeper of the Hanaper, Knight of the Shire for
Cornwall, 1478, Comptroller of the coinage of tin in Cornwall and
Devonshire, Chamberlain and counsellor to Edward, Prince of Wales son
of King Edward IV, 1471-1483, Attorney General of William Herbert,
Earl of Pembroke, son of Robert Vaughan, Esq., by his wife, Margaret.
They had one daughter, Anne (wife of John Wogan, K.B.). He was made
porter of Abergavenny in 1446 during Warwick's minority. In 1453 he
was granted houses in London. In 1458 he was sent as ambassador to
Burgundy. He was a great warrior in the War of the Roses, having
fought in eighteen battles for King Edward IV. He was with the
Yorkists at Ludlow. He was subsequently attainted in 1459, but
pardoned by 1460. Following the 2nd Battle of St. Albans in 1461, he
and Malpas took ship from London with the Yorkist treasure and were
captured by French pirates and held to ransom. In October 1461 Edward
IV promised him £200 towards his ransom and the King got him back to
service the following year. In 1462 he was sent with Wenlock to
Burgundy to make a commercial treaty. In 1463 he escorted the
Burgundian embassy from London to Sandwich, and met King Louis IX at
St. Omer. In 1467 he was in Burgundy negotiating Princess Margaret's
marriage to Charles, Duke of Burgundy. In 1468 he was in Burgundy
when Margaret arrived for the marriage, and Duke Charles sent him to
King Edward IV to communicate to him the statutes of the Golden
Fleece. He was negotiating with the Hanse in 1469. The same year he
presented to the Perpetual Chantry of Burleigh (in Charing), Kent. In
1470 he was appointed one the the commissioners to deliver the Garter
to Duke Charles. He was in exile with Edward IV in 1470-1471, and
returned with him to fight at the Battles of Barnet and Tewkesbury in
1471. He was restored to the bench, and sent to treat with King Louis
IX. He was knighted 18 April 1475. In the period, 1475-1480, or 1483-
1485, John Audley, Knt., Lord Audley sued Sir Thomas Vaughan, husband
of Eleanor, previously the wife of Sir Thomas Browne, in Chancery
regarding land called Walsted and Huddes in Lindfield, Sussex, which
property was formerly held by Sir Thomas Browne. In 1482 Sir Thomas
was sent with Sir Thomas Montgomery to Maximilian. At the time of
King Edward IV's death in 1483, he was with Edward the young prince at
Ludlow with Earl Rivers, Grey, Haute, and others. On the journey to
London, they were met by Richard, Earl of Gloucester, and Buckingham,
who seised them at Stony Stratford, Buckinghamshire, and hurried them
off to the north of England. SIR THOMAS VAUGHAN was tried before the
Earl of Northumberland, and executed at Pontefract, Yorkshire 23 June
1483. He was buried in the chapel of St. Paul in Westminster Abbey.
He was a legatee in the 1483 will of Anthony Wydeville, K.G., 2nd Earl
Rivers.
References:
Wotton, English Baronetage 3 (1741): 5. Nicolas, Testamenta Vetusta 1
(1826): 291. Tierney, Hist. & Antiq. of the Castle and Town of
Arundel 1 (1834): chart following 192. Meyrick, Heraldic Vis. of
Wales 1 (1846): 42 (Wogan pedigree: "Syr John Wgan Knt = Ann sol eyr
Syr Tomas Vychan off Pwmffrett Kt"), 107 (Wogan pedigree: Syr John
Wgan kt = Ann merch a koeyr Syr Tomas Vychan kt. o Pomfrett"). Top. &
Gen. 2 (1853): 267 (pedigree prepared in 1585 by Walter Brown,
grandson of George Browne, Knt., eldest son of Thomas and Eleanor),
336; 3 (1858): 250-255. Nichols, Grants, etc. from the Crown During
the Reign of Edward the Fifth (Camden Soc. 60) (1854): xv-xvi. (biog.
of Sir Thomas Vaughan) (states his brass effigy at Westminster had two
shields of arms, one of which was charged with, Quarterly: 1 and 4, a
saltire; 2 and 3, three fleurs-de-lis, overall a bend engrailed).
Arch. Cantiana, 11 (1877): 373-374. Hawley et al., Vis. of Essex
1552, 1558, 1570, 1612 & 1634 2 (H.S.P. 14) (1879): 732-733 (Misc.
Peds.). Arch. Cambrensis, 5th Ser. 1 (1884): 219-221 (Fitzalan
pedigree). Lewis, Pedes Finium; or, Fines relating to the County of
Surrey (Surrey Arch. Soc. Extra Volume 1) (1894): 227. Philipot, Vis.
of Kent 1619-1621 (H.S.P. 42) (1898): 217 (Add'l Peds.) (Browne
pedigree: "Sir Thomas Browne Knight treasurer of ye household to K. H.
6. = Ellyn his wife da. & coheire of Sir Thomas FitzAllen Kt.").
Benolte et al., Vis. of Surrey 1530, 1572 & 1613 (H.S.P. 43) (1899): 8-
10 (Browne pedigree: "Sr Thomas Browne of Beechworth in com. Surrey
Knight treseror of the Houshould to H. 6. = Ellen d. & coheire of Tho.
Fitz Allan 3 sonn of the Lord Matrevers.") (Browne arms: On a bend
cotised three lions passant). D.N.B. 58 (1899): 180-181 (biog. of Sir
Thomas Vaughan). List of Early Chancery Procs. 1 (PRO Lists and
Indexes 12) (1901): 259; 2 (PRO Lists and Indexes 16) (1903): 268.
Hitchin-Kemp et al., Hist. of the Kemp Fams. (1902): 24 (Browne arms:
Sable, three lions passant in bend between two double cotises
argent). Yeatman et al., Feudal Hist. of Derby 4(7) (1903): 21-40.
Benolte et al. Vis. of Sussex 1530, 1633-4 (H.S.P. 53) (1905): 83-84
(Browne pedigree: "Sr Thomas Browne Treaseror of the househould to H.
6. = Ellen d. & coheire of Tho. Fitzallen 3 sonn of John Lord
Matravers"). Salzman, Feet of Fines Rel. Sussex 3 (Sussex Rec. Soc.
23) (1916): 230. C.Ch.R. 6 (1920): 102, 113. Hussey Kent Chantries
(Kent Arch. Soc. Recs. Branch 12) (1936): 96-98. Wedgwood, Hist. of
Parliament 1 (1936): 902-903 (biog. of Sir Thomas Vaughan). VCH
Sussex 4 (1953): 91-94, 110-113, 165-170; 6(1) (1980): 247-259.
National Library of Wales Journal 8 (1954): 349. Rees, Cal. of
Ancient Petitions Rel. Wales (Board of Celtic Studies, Hist & Law 28)
(1975): 243 (petition of Thomas Vaughan, Esq., to the king dated 1453-
55). Nottingham Medieval Studies 41 (1997): 154-155 (Arundel chart).
PRO Documents, C 1/26/540 (Chancery Proceeding dated 1459-1460 -
Thomas Broun, Knt., and Eleanor his wife. v. William Norton, feoffee
of Richard Malmayn, Esq.: manors of Pluckley and Waldershare, Kent
bequeathed to the said Eleanor by Jane Knowth, heiress of the said
Richard), C 1/59/24 (Chancery Proceeding dated 1475-1480, or 1483-1485
- John Audeley, Knight, lord Audeley. v. Sir Thomas Vaughan, Knight,
husband of Alianore, previously the wife of Sir Thomas Broun.: Land
called `Walsted' and `Huddes' at Lindfield, Sussex late of Sir Thomas
Broun, Knight, attainted) (abstract of documents available online at
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp).
terrence White
T.J. "Terry" White
Vance Mead
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/
has this, from the Victoria History of Essex:
Susanna Fanshawe married Timothy Lucy of Charlecote (Warws.) who was
living at Valence in c. 1594. (fn. 342 < >)
342 Fanshawe Family, 14; Norden, Speculi Britanniae Pars (Camden Soc.
1st ser. ix), 35
Vance
WJhonson
My research indicates that the Fitzalan family dropped the surname,
Fitzalan, in favor of Arundel about 1313. Thereafter all members of
the family were known exclusively as Arundel (or de Arundel). >>
But you didn't mention that among historians, you appear to be singularly alone in this theory. Isn't that a bit odd?
Will Johnson
WJhonson
(2) And can anyone point me toward any documentation regarding Daniel Lucy of Jamestown, Virginia (died 1627), who is believed to have been a son of Timothy Lucy (1547-1616) of Warwick (M.P. from Warwick in the 1580s)? This Daniel Lucy (from whom I descend)--if he was indeed a son of Timothy (or from that family generally)--would thus be a descendant of Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan. >>
I do not see that this is the case. Can you provide a reputable source for this Timothy Lucy ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJhonson
Re Timothy Lucy and his family connections
Vance Mead
It seems to me the weakest link is from Daniel Lucy back to Timothy.
If Daniel was the nephew of Sir Thomas Lucy, it's possible that he was
mentioned in his uncle's will. This is also a PCC will, and you can
download a pdf copy from the same site as I mentioned yesterday:
Will of Sir Thomas Lucy of Charlcote, Warwickshire
Date 20 November 1605
It's not clear where Timothy Lucy lived, but he must also have left a
will, though it's not in the PCC. Calendars of wills are published by
the British Record Society. If Timothy Lucy lived in Warwickshire,
then you should be able to find his will in: W. P. W.
Phillimore, ed., Calendars of Wills and Administrations in the
Consistory Court of the Bishop of Lichfield and Coventry, 1516 to 1652
He may also have lived in Essex - at least it appears that he did in
the 1590s. Of so, you'll have to look at: Wills at Chelmsford
Vol. I 1400-1619
Once you have the reference, it's easier to write to the county record
office and request a copy of the will. Most of them have a request
form on their sites.
Vance
On Oct 29, 10:00 pm, terrence White <revenant1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Vance Mead
If Daniel Lucy was the son of Timothy Lucy, it would appear that he
was born in Essex rather than Warwickshire, since Timothy Lucy was
living in Essex in the 1580s and 90s:
Emmison's Elizabethan Life
LUCYE Timothy Dagenham, Valence, small trader, 1594
PRO catalogue
Timothy Lucye of Valance, co. Essex [in Dagenham] to John Hare of the
Inner Temple, esquire: manor of Clayhall in Barking: Essex
7 Oct 1595 37 Eliz
File of acquittances for various sums of money received by Timothy
Lucy from Thomas Fanshawe (d 1601) as executor of the will of Henry
Fanshawe (d 1568 Lucy was married to Susan, daughter of Henry);
request from Timothy Lucy to Thomas Fanshawe for money to pay
beneficiaries of the will of his sister-in-law Anne (daughter of Henry
d 1568)
1584-5 26-27 Eliz I
Essex Record Office
Michaelmas 1595
(i) William Mildmay, gentleman and TIMOTHY LUCY, gentleman
(plaintiffs) v. (ii) George Henry , esq, and wife Frances, Henry
Slyngesby and wife Frances (deforciants)
15a. of pasture, St. Leonard, Shoreditch, Middlesex
Messuage, 30a. of land, 10a. of meadow, 40a of pasture, 3a of wood in
Orsett and Horndon
t...@clearwire.net
>
> Here's my "lineage" back to Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan (through the somewhat hazy Daniel Lucy/Timothy Lucy connection) Most or all other connections shown appear to be fairly well-documented (excepting some of the dates):
>
> Sir Thomas Browne ======== Eleanor Fitzalan (1402-executed 20 Jul 1460) (c.1428-c.1445)
>
> Sir John Browne of Walcot (c.1445-1 Jan 1498), Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London
>
> Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw (1467-1514)
> Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord Mayor, etc.
>
> Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Unfortunately, your line breaks at the start. There is no evidence
whatsoever that John Browne, Mayor of London was son of Thomas Browne,
or anyone else for that matter. His will points to family connections
in Warwickshire (IIRC) with the name of del Werke, and this may well
have been an alias surname for the family. The lack of information has
not stopped various attempts to connect this family to other Brownes
with desirable pedigrees, as has been done here. This has all been
much discussed in the group in the past (search the archives for Shaa,
the more common spelling of Mayor Edmund's surname).
taf
t...@clearwire.net
>
> Here's my "lineage" back to Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan (through the somewhat hazy Daniel Lucy/Timothy Lucy connection) Most or all other connections shown appear to be fairly well-documented (excepting some of the dates):
>
> Sir Thomas Browne ======== Eleanor Fitzalan (1402-executed 20 Jul 1460) (c.1428-c.1445)
>
> Sir John Browne of Walcot (c.1445-1 Jan 1498), Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London
>
> Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw (1467-1514)
> Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord Mayor, etc.
>
> Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
wjho...@aol.com
http://books.google.com/books?id=B-gKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA147
http://books.google.com/books?id=PSQFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA118
http://books.google.com/books?id=haYLAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-PA266
Timothy Lucy is buried in Bitterley, Salop
Will dated 5 Dec 1614, proved 4 Jul 1617
Will Johnson
Will dated 5 Dec 1614, proved 4 Jul 1617
Will Johnson
________________________________________________________________________
Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Vance Mead
In which court was his will proved, consistory or archdeaconry?
Vance
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
original heading of this thread). Here it is again:
In a message dated 29/10/2007 17:33:32 GMT Standard Time,
revena...@yahoo.com writes:
>>>>>
Here's my "lineage" back to Thomas Browne and Eleanor FitzAlan (through the
somewhat hazy Daniel Lucy/Timothy Lucy connection) Most or all other
connections shown appear to be fairly well-documented (excepting some of the dates):
Sir Thomas Browne ======== Eleanor Fitzalan (1402-executed 20 Jul 1460)
(c.1428-c.1445)
Sir John Browne of Walcot (c.1445-1 Jan 1498), Lord Mayor and Sheriff of
London
Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw (1467-1514)
Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord Mayor,
etc.
Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553) === Sir William Lucy (1509-1551)
Timothy Lucy (16 Nov 1547-21 Jan 1616), B.A., Oxford (1567), & Member of
Parliament
<<<<
Terry,
Gosh, this is a bit of a jumble, not surprisingly considering what is in
print about the Brownes
"Sir Thomas Browne ======== Eleanor Fitzalan (1402-executed 20 Jul 1460)
(c.1428-c.1445)
Sir John Browne of Walcot (c.1445-1 Jan 1498), Lord Mayor and Sheriff of
London"
There are three different Browne families here, there may be connections
between them, but not as shown here.
Thomas Browne and Eleanor Fitzalan (as the family is now commonly called)
had seven known sons (as shown in a deed of 1460) and one known dau They was
ancestor of the Browne of Betchworth, nr Dorking (a limited view of the ruins of
Betchworth Castle, but in reality a fortified house, can just be made out on
Google earth) and the Browne's Viscount Montague (of Battle Abbey, Sussex
and Cowdray, nr Midhurst, Sussex), a family that became extinct at end of 18th
centuary. There were not the father of the above Sir John Browne, although
there is some thin circumstantial evidence, apart from their surname, that
they were related
The Browne's whom later became baronets of Walcot were almost certainly
descendants of Browne's of Stamford, Lincolnshire (Walcot being 3 or 4 miles from
Stamford). The Stamford Browne have been fairly well documneted and are
not, at least for a number of generations, related to the Brownes who were
(lord) mayors of London.
"Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw (1467-1514)
Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord Mayor, etc.
Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553) === Sir William Lucy (1509-1551)"
John Browne (-1497) was mayor of London in 1480/1 and he had a son William
Browne (-Will 1514) who was mayor in 1513 and m1 Katherine Shaa als Shaw and m2
Alice Kebyll, but it was a different Sir William Browne (-1507) and who died
in office as mayor of London and who was father of the Anne Browne who
married Richard Fermor als Farmor. This second William Browne was related to the
other Browne's, mayors of London, but the exact relationship is not known,
most likley William is cousen germaine to John, mayor.
"Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553) === Sir William Lucy (1509-1551)"
This is correct relationship, but I don't know where most of these dates
come from.
I don't know anything further about their descendants. You could try
looking in "The New England Historical and Genealogical Register", but I don't know
much about US genealogy.
You could also check Gen-Med archives for various posts I have made about
the above Brownes
Adrian
wjho...@aol.com
From: ADRIANCH...@aol.com
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 4:14 am
Subject: Re: Sir Thomas Browne (died 1460) and Eleanor Arundel
??
"Sir William Browne (1474-3 June, 1514) === Katherine Shaw? (1467-1514)
Lord Mayor and Sheriff of London?????? d/o Sir Edmund Shaw, Lord? Mayor, etc.
Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir? Richard Fermor (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553)? === Sir William Lucy (1509-1551)"
John Browne (-1497) was mayor of London in 1480/1 and he had a son William?
Browne (-Will 1514) who was mayor in 1513 and m1 Katherine Shaa als Shaw and m2
Alice Kebyll, but it was a different Sir William Browne (-1507) and who died
in? office as mayor of London and who was father of the Anne Browne who
married? Richard Fermor als Farmor.? This second William Browne was related to
the other Browne's, mayors of London, but the exact relationship is not known,
most? likley William is cousen germaine to John, mayor.
"Anne Browne (c.1495-10 Mar 1582) === Sir Richard Fermor? (1492-1552)
Anne Fermor (c.1515-1553) === Sir William? Lucy (1509-1551)"
Adrian
-------------------------------
I would be interested in what the proof is for the statement that the father of Anne (Browne) Fermor is not the same William Browne as the William Browne who married Catherine Shaa.
Thanks
t...@clearwire.net
> I would be interested in what the proof is for the statement that the father of Anne (Browne) Fermor is not the same William Browne as the William Browne who married Catherine Shaa.
>
John and the two Williams, as well as the next generation left wills
naming children, in-laws and relatives that allow the families to be
accurately reconstructed. This has all been discussed here, and most
of the wills posted in their entirety, so check the archives.
taf
ADRIANCH...@aol.com
In a message dated 31/10/2007 20:05:57 GMT Standard Time, wjho...@aol.com
writes:
Adrian
-------------------------------
I would be interested in what the proof is for the statement that the father
of Anne (Browne) Fermor is not the same William Browne as the William Browne
who married Catherine Shaa.
Thanks
Will Johnson
Will,
The Will of William Browne Ld Mayor in 1513 PRO Web page indexed as William
Browne, Alderman of Saint Thomas Acon, City of London; proved 01 July 1514;
PROB 11/17
“... Then I bequeath of my cousins Isabel Pyke William Browne the younger
son of William Browne the elder late alderman and Richard [Ferres crossed out]
Fermor grocer Margaret Riche widow and Erasmus Forde mercer a ring of gold of
the value of 20s ...”
Then Will of William Browne mayor in 1507 PRO Web page indexed as William
Browne, Alderman of City of London; 06 June 1508; PROB 11/16
“...I will and bequeath to be devided by my executors two equal parts or
portion of the which I give and bequeath one equal part unto my vj children
(that is to say) William Antony Leonard Katherine Margaret and Anne evenly to be
devided amongst them and that other equal part thereof. ...”
And the Will of William Browne (son of William Browne mayor in 1507) PRO web
page indexed as William Browne or Brown, Mercer of London; 15 November 1525;
PROB 11/21
“... whereof I give and bequeith unto the children of my sister Margaret
Hynde the wife of Thomas Hynde citizen and mercer of London unto the children of
my sister Kathrin Elryngton deceased and to the children of my sister Anne
ffermer and to the infant being w'in the wombe of my said sister Anne ffermor
the wife of Richard ffermor citizen and grocer of London one equal part
equally to be divided amongst them so that every of them have part and portion
like which part and portion ...”
Now that must be enough Wills, even for you.
Adrian
Douglas Richardson
In the discussion this past week regarding the Browne family, I stated
Sir Thomas Browne's wife was named Eleanor Arundel, not Eleanor
Fitzalan. My research indicates that the Fitzalan family dropped the
surname, Fitzalan, in favor of Arundel about 1313. Thereafter all
members of the family were known exclusively as Arundel (or de
Arundel).
I came across a chart tonight in which Eleanor's father is correctly
called Sir Thomas Arundel. This chart can be found at the following
weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=eNY1AAAAMAAJ&pg=PA220&dq=Archaeologia+Margaret+Bohun
The chart, however, contains other errors. I count at least six
errors. Can anyone spot them?
John Higgins
article where the family members (earlier and later) of Sir Thomas "Arundel"
are called "Fitzalan". The article doesn't appear to provide much support
for your "Fitzalan/Arundel" hypothesis....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval, soc.history.medieval,
alt.history.british,alt.talk.royalty
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: Sir Thomas Browne (died 1460) and Eleanor Arundel
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
GEN-MEDIEV...@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Vance Mead
http://www.uk-genealogy.org.uk/england/Kent/visitation/index.html
On page 217 you can see the pedigree of Browne.
It says that Sir Thomas Browne married Ellyn the daughter
and co-heir of "Sir Thomas FitzAllen kt".
You can also search the PRO catalogue or A2A and find
several references to Thomas FitzAlan during the 15th century.
Bobb...@aol.com
Sir John Browne Knight
Born: 1435, Swineshead, Leicestershire, England
Marriage: Alice Swineshead in 1459 in Swineshead, Leicestershire, England 679
Buried: Mylkestreet Church 678
bullet Another name for John was John de Werkes.
bullet General Notes:
~The Blackmans of Knight's Creek, Henry James Young, Carlise, PA, 1980, p. 80
~The History and Antiquities of Northamptonshire, John Bridges, Oxford, T. Payne, 1791, 2:497
bullet Noted events in his life were:
• Background Information. 535
Sir John Browne, knight, Lord Mayor of London in 1480, married first, Alice, daughter and heir of William Swineshed, and secondly, Anne Betwooe. By the latter he left a son, Sir William, Lord Mayor of London in 1597, and by the former wife, a successor, Robert Browne, Chamberlain of the Exchequer.
~A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Extinct and Dormant Baronetcies . . ., p. 89
• Background Information. 679
Sir John Browne, alias John de Werkes, of the Company of Mercers, served the office of Lord Mayor of London in 1480, and was the son of John Browne of Oakham, Rutland. His first wife being Alice, daughter and heiress of William de Swineshed. His second wife was Anne Betwood. By his second wife, he had a son, Sir William, Lord Mayor of London in 1507. With his first wife, he had a son, Robert, Chancellor of the exchequer, who married Isabel, daughter and heiress of Sir John Sharpe, knight.
~The Reliquary, Vol. 17, p. 202
• Background Information. 678
"Sir John Browne, otherwise called John de Werkes mercer, shrive of London, 1472 and Mayor of the same, 1481, he dwelled in Mylkestreet over against the Church where he Lyeth buryed."
~The Visitation of Essex, p. 164
John married Alice Swineshead, daughter of William Swineshead and Unknown, in 1459 in Swineshead, Leicestershire, England.679 (Alice Swineshead was born in 1440 in Swineshead, Leicestershire, England.)
taf
> Hi there! I have recently just started a tree. John Browne is also in my
> tree and everything I find points to him being the son of Thomas Browne.
> However, I did find this documentation which lists his father as John Browne
> of Oakham, Rutland:
> Sir John Browne Knight
> Born: 1435, Swineshead, Leicestershire, England
> Marriage: Alice Swineshead in 1459 in Swineshead, Leicestershire, England 679
> Sir John Browne, knight, Lord Mayor of London in 1480, married first, Alice,
> daughter and heir of William Swineshed, and secondly, Anne Betwooe.
> Sir John Browne, alias John de Werkes, of the Company of Mercers, served
> the office of Lord Mayor of London in 1480, and was the son of John Browne
> of Oakham, Rutland.
> His second wife was Anne Betwood.
John's alias, dee Werkes, is mirrored in the 'a Werke' that appears frequently in association with his family and the mercer's company, and has been suggested in a thread here from March 2017 to refer to Wark, Northumberland. That would be a good place to start a search for his origin.
taf
Bobb...@aol.com
> > Hi there! I have recently just started a tree. John Browne is also in my
> > tree and everything I find points to him being the son of Thomas Browne.
>
> When you say everything you find points to this placement, what exactly are you finding that is pointing that way?
> > However, I did find this documentation which lists his father as John Browne
> > of Oakham, Rutland:
>
> I am not sanguine about this either.
>
> > Sir John Browne Knight
> > Born: 1435, Swineshead, Leicestershire, England
> > Marriage: Alice Swineshead in 1459 in Swineshead, Leicestershire, England 679
>
> This birthdate is without foundation. Someone has inexplicably simply entered into their database for his place of birth the family seat of his wife.
>
>
> > Sir John Browne, knight, Lord Mayor of London in 1480, married first, Alice,
> > daughter and heir of William Swineshed, and secondly, Anne Betwooe.
>
> Are you using OCRed sources? the wife was named Anne Belwood (which could appear in some documents as Belwode).
> > Sir John Browne, alias John de Werkes, of the Company of Mercers, served
> > the office of Lord Mayor of London in 1480, and was the son of John Browne
> > of Oakham, Rutland.
>
> As I said, I was never comfortable with this. His will suggests he was related to man named de Werkes, like his alias, and the records of the Mercers company include this surname, likely kin. THe toponym appears to refer to
>
> > His second wife was Anne Betwood.
>
> Again, Belwood.
>
> John's alias, dee Werkes, is mirrored in the 'a Werke' that appears frequently in association with his family and the mercer's company, and has been suggested in a thread here from March 2017 to refer to Wark, Northumberland. That would be a good place to start a search for his origin.
BH
>
> taf
taf
> On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 3:54:55 PM UTC-4, taf wrote:
> > > Hi there! I have recently just started a tree. John Browne is also in my
> > > tree and everything I find points to him being the son of Thomas Browne.
> >
> > When you say everything you find points to this placement, what exactly are you finding that is pointing that way?
>
> Every Family tree I compare or research indicates his father was Thomas and
> his mother Elinor FitzAlan.
At some time in the past a genealogical hobbyist was faced with a problem. They could trace back to Mayor John Browne of London, but found no sources that enabled him to be traced further. However, as they looked for Brownes that could be his ancestry (a search that was biased toward the most prominent people of this surname, because those are the ones for whom there are readily-available sources), they hit on Thomas Browne, whose wife Elizabeth FitzAlan was descended from kings. With nothing more to support it than the desire that it be true, they entered it into their records.
In a previous, pre-internet era, such an example of biased jumping to conclusion would have languished in the personal notes of the person doing the concluding, likely to be torched when their family got rid of the evidence of their genealogical obsession after their death, or, every once in a while, the person would self-publish it and it would get slightly broader circulation (but still limited because it would usually be buried in a book not specifically dealing with the Brownes, so nobody would know to look there).
Enter the internet. Every obscure book with every obscure guess is now searchable. The wildest speculation gets recorded in a genealogical database and uploaded to Family Search, Ancestry.com, etc. It gets downloaded, merged in people's own trees and uploaded again. In most cases, the spread is completely mindless, just copying in its entirety. Rather than weltering in obscurity, such such jumped conclusions now spread like metastatic cancer, and this is particularly the case when the true parentage is unknown, so the guess does not flag as a conflict with known information.
That is a long-winded way of saying that the fact you find a desirable connection in every on-line pedigree you encounter has everything to do with the nature of 21st-century internet genealogy and almost nothing to do with historical reality.
> > > Sir John Browne, knight, Lord Mayor of London in 1480, married first, Alice,
> > > daughter and heir of William Swineshed, and secondly, Anne Betwooe.
> >
> > Are you using OCRed sources? the wife was named Anne Belwood (which could appear in some documents as Belwode).
>
> No, I realize the name is Belwood and that my research indicates she was
> John Browne's wife with William being their son. I merely copied the text
> as written.
> Thank you for replying and taking the time to assist. I appreciate your
> reply
As long as we are talking about them though, I will go ahead and comment on what is clearly the source for some of what is represented here.
That John Browne, Mayor of London, married twice, to Swineshead and then Belwood, derives as far as I am aware from a single source, an old pedigree that was printed in the appendix to the Visitation of Northamptonshire. It's origin is only vaguely given:
"The Appendix contains Northamptonshire Pedigrees, some of which have been taken from R. Mundy's Harl. MS. 1558, being, as he calls them, "descents coppied of Mr. Vincent's own booke," and others from the other MSS. above referred to."
. . . the other manuscripts being:
"The first Visitation of Northamptonshire, including Huntingdonshire, was made in 1564 by William Harvey, Clareneeulx (H. 14); the next Visitation of Northamptonshire, including Rutlandshire, was made in 1618-19 by Augustine Vincent, Rouge Rose, Deputy to William Camden, Clareneeulx (C. 14)."
"Copies of the Northamptonshire portion of these visitations, more or less complete and accurate, are to be found in the various Harl. MSS. referred to in Mr. Sims's ' Genealogist's Manual;' and most of them contain numerous additions, the authority for which may be questionable."
So, this information is apparently one of those "numerous additions, the authority for which may be questionable".
The pedigree itself traces the ancestry of Browne of Walcott, Northants, who descend from 'Robert Browne, Chancellor of the Exchequer'. No date is given, but the last individuals shown fall four generations after Robert.
Robert is shown marrying Isabel Sharpe, and as son of the marriage of Sir John Browne, Mayor 1480, and his first wife, Alice Swineshead, with Sir John remarrying to Anne Belwood of Lincs., having William Browne, Mayor 1508. Sir John is then shown as son of John of Oakham, Rutland.
The William who was son of Anne Belwood was not the mayor in 1508 - that is clearly referring to his older cousin of the same name. Mayor John Browne left an extensive will, throwing money around to various relatives, and naming his wife Anne, his sons William and Thomas, in memory of his son Richard, his nephew William and various other kinsmen of himself and his wife, including a gift to the church where his son Richard is buried, but there is no mention at all of this Robert. His sons William and Thomas also left wills, but again, there is no mention of this very important Robert. That being said, how important was he? Contrary to the claim in the pedigree, there was no such Chancellor of the Exchequer.
I have come to suspect that somewhere along the line, someone got down to some serious ancestral improvement. The descendants could trace back to a Robert who married Sharpe, and was son of a John Browne and Alice Swineshead. They lifted the title of the unrelated Thomas Browne, who really was Chancellor, and they decided that the obscure John must have been identical to the Mayor of that name. Since the Mayor's wife was known to be different, they spliced the two men together through scenario whereby the Mayor married twice. If this is the case, then it cold just as well be that the Walcott ancestor, the husband of Swineshead, was the actual son of John of Oakham, Rutland, and it got attached to the mayor in the same maneuver that spliced him into the Walcott pedigree.
Thus I am skeptical of the whole two-marriage scenario.
taf
Adrian Channing
The evidence comes from Visitation of The North (pub by Surtees Society, Vol CXXII (1912) p 161-3) and claims to be Pedigrees Collected in 1560-1561.
The first entry for the Branlyn family of Newcastle reads:
"ROBERTE BRANLYN of Spytton in Northumberland [sic] Marye [blank] dowghter to Browne of Wark and suster to Browne capteyne of the castle of Callyce, had issue Roberte and Wiliam."
Browne of Wark would suggest a connection to the London mayor Browne whereas the Captain of the Castle, I would suggest, can only be Sir Anthony Browne (-1506 Calais, bur there, Resurrection Chapel, St Nicholas' Church)
This work goes to say "On leaves bound up at the end of the MS. Anstis C. 9 is the fragment of an armorial in a still earlier handwriting than that of the rest of the manuscript. They contain amongst others the following entry: “William browne: silver and gold per pale endented, upon all a chevron betwene iij scaloppis geules; his wiffe geules, a chevron betwene iij luces ayrantz silver.”
Now the wife's arms "luces ayrantz" means the fish "pike" swimming vertically upwards. William Browne (1467-1514) in his will refers to a cousin "Isabel Pyke" and he bequests a jewelled pike to his father in law.
Although this is far from conclusive, it has the added weight that there would seem to be no reason to fabricate that Mary was both of Wark and sister to the Browne captain of Calais.
Previously I have discussed Sir Anthony Browne's connections to the North of England (both his wives were Northerners)
Adrian