Magruder born in England, died in America
AaronPa...@gmail.com
> > and ask up front, what
> > is "circumstantial" about Magruder's claim? I had no idea he claimed
> > descent from William I The Conqueror King of England, Robert the
> > Bruce, and Charlemagne. I thought all of that was our doing: his
> > descendants.
>
> "Magruder's claimed ancestry": obviously, the ancestry claimed by others
> for Magruder. Yes, it is based on circumstantial evidence: there is no
> probative documentation of the origin and parentage of the immigrant
> Magruder. Read the articles by Kurz and Magruder for more details; post
> again if you would like to discuss the nature and value of the
> circumstantial evidence they present. That would be preferable to the
> junk posts predominating here now.
>
> Nat Taylor
> a genealogist's sketchbook: http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
Cousin Nat, can you give me a fuller citation for Kurz and Magruder?
Is it something you have in PDF? I did find in my files, a PDF,
on the Clan MacGregor which clearly links Magruder born in England,
died in America. If you wish to see it, I can send it offlist as a
PDF.
aaron
Nathaniel Taylor
<2b46b5dd-2ce0-4747...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"AaronPa...@gmail.com" <AaronPa...@gmail.com> wrote:
The two articles by Kurz and Magruder are cited at the bottom of this
page, which I know you have seen:
http://www.nltaylor.net/ancestry/royaldescents/magruder.htm
These may be the articles you have on pdf. If you have them you should
be able to summarize the circumstantial evidence given there for
Magruder's identity. The evidence is not what a conscientious
genealogist would describe as a 'clear link'.
Note that no one suggests Magruder was born in *England*. You might
want to find Perthshire on a map.
AaronPa...@gmail.com
> In article
> <2b46b5dd-2ce0-4747-a987-652744313...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
Cousin Nat, thank you. Yes we have the same Clan Gregor articles,
plus I have a lot of documents from the American side about Magruders
in Maryland, and descendants. I could share them if you wish, offlist
if you want them. I am aware of what the Clan Gregor articles state.
I do not have "the not-yet-published work of Brice M. Clagett." Is
that
extensive? Your footnote states that is source of "concise account of
the compelling but circumstantial evidence" referred to above: is that
available, and substantially different than Clan Gregor articles? I
did
look up Perthshire+wikipedia, which has an interesting coat of arms
presented by Drummond, family ancestors married to Campbell:
see,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perthshire
Central Great Britain, albeit Scotland, lands of contention between
north and south, oft called England, yes.
Also, of interest to you, I have from Crown of Charlemagne org
(if Tony Hoskins reported on his tour there, I missed it),
the 1978 and 1979 Clan Gregor, as well as several photocopies
of documents from Scotland:
THE REGISTER OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL OF SCOTLAND,
Vol. VII, AD 1604-1607, Edinburgh, 188t,
Margaret Campbell spouse of Alexander McGruder.
DICTIONARY OF NATIONAL BIOGRPAHY, London, 1886,
Donald Campbell, with parents, etc.
THE GENEALOGY OF THE CAMPBELLS, arms, plates and pedigree,
Edinburgh, 1920, vol. 1. pedigree of Keithock, Archiblad, 2nd Earl of
Argyll,
with descendants.
Below, are some entries from a Magruder website (have you seen them?):
11 Margaret Campbell ( ala "Lady Campbell" or "Lady Drummond ") ABT
1569 - b: ABT 1569
"Our records indicate that Margaret Campbell (circa 1571- 8 Aug
1631) married first (prenuptial
marriage contract was dated 19 July 1589) Andrew DRUMMOND, eldest
legal son of William
Drummond of Balmaclone. By this marriage Margaret had two sons John
& Thomas Drummond,
and daughters Beatrix, Jane, Margaret, & Christina Drummond. Andrew
died 24 March 1604.
Margaret married second 25 May 1605 according to the Register of Privy
Council of Scotland
(Vol. 7, page 600) Alexander Magruder of Innerfeffray & Balmaclone. By
this marriage, Margaret
had sons James (1607-pre 1676), Alexander Magruder (1610-1677) who
migrated to Calvert Co.,
Maryland c1652 where he had much land, John b. 1614, and daughter
Margaret. Following
Alexander Magruder's death, Margaret married a third time to Donald
Campbell in Balmaclone
(marriage contract dated 1617). No children were born of this
marriage.
Margaret was, however, the daughter of Mr. Nicholas Campbell of
Delvany who acquired the lands
of Kethick (Keithock) from his brother David circa 1576. Nicholas
(Nicol) of Kethick was the
natural
son of Donald Campbell, Abbot of Coupar who, in turn was the fourth
son of Archibald, 2nd Earl of
Argyll.
"She also enclosed genealogical charts of the Campbells of Kethick
which and I quote, "clearly
shows
Margaret as the daughter of Kethick". She further stated that these
charts were prepared by
Herbert
Campbell, noted genealogist and historian, in the 1920s. The originals
are housed in the Office of
the Lord
Lyon in Edinburgh."
*2nd Husband of Margaret Campbell (Lady Campbell):
+Alexander MacGregor 1569 - 1617 b: 1569 in Perthshire, Scotland d:
1617 in Perthshire, Scotland..
Here is Alexander's ancestry beginning with the oldest:
1. Hugh of Urchy (Aodh Urchaidh)
2. Giolla Faolain
3. Duncan a Straileadh
4. Duncan Beg
5. Malcolm
6. Duncan
7. Gregor
8. Iain MacGREGOR (d. 1390)
9. Gregor MacGREGOR (d. 1415) md. Iric MacALPHIN
10. Gillespie MacGREGOR (b. 1375)
11. Gilawnene (William) MacGREGOR (b. c1413)
12. Gillespie (Archibald) MacGREGOR (b. 1453)
13. William MacGREGOR (b. c1490)
14. James MacGREGOR (b. 1519) married ________DRUMMOND
15. John MacGREGOR (1544-1600) md. Margaret MURRAY; the parents of
16. Alexander MacGREGOR (1569-1617) who married Margaret CAMPBELL
!
!
who were the parents of
!
!
12 Alexander Magruder/MacGruether ABT 1610 - 1677 b: ABT 1610 in
Perthshire, Scotland d: July 25,
1677 in Calvert County/Prince Georges County, MD
"born in Cargill, Scotland, 1610, captured by Oliver Cromwell at the
Battle of Worcester in 1651,
sentenced to have his name proscribed from MacGregor to Magruder, and
with 150 other prisoners was
sent to the Maryland Colony of America. He was bound to some colonist
for eight years service. He
is thought to have married and started a family in Scotland before his
exile, and had had a son
Robert MacGregor educated in Edinburgh, who also came to America
afterwards." " Alexander
MacGreuther, the immigrant, was an Officer in the army of Charles II.
He was captured at the
Battle of Worcester in 1651 and sent as a prisoner of war to Virginia
through Barbados. In 1652 he
ransomed himself and received a grant of 500 acres of land at "Turkey
Buzzard Island" Calvert
County, Md. which was near the Patuxent River. At the time of his
death in 1677 he owned about
4000 acres of land known as "Craignaigh, Dumbland, Good Luck and
Anchovie Hills."
"He married three times, but our line descends through his first
marriage to Margaret Braithwaite.
She was the daughter of William Braithwaite who was a member of the
First Assembly of Md in 1637;
Commander of the Isle of Kent, in 1633 which was the earliest seat of
the Proprietary Government
of Maryland. He was acting Governor of the Province in 1644."
+Margaret Braithwaite
!
!
who were the parents of
!
!
13 Samuel Magruder was born in 1654 at "Good Luck" Prince George's
County. Md. He was Civil and
Military Officer of Prince George's County in 1696, Gentleman Justice
1697- 1705, Member of the
House of Burgesses 1704-7, and one of His Majesty's Commissioners in
1696. Died in 1711. He
married Sarah Beall, daughter of Ninian and Ruth (Moore) Beall.
(+Sarah Beall 1658 - 1734 b: 1658 d: 1734 (descendant of the
illustrious Ninian Beall)
!
!
who were the parents of
!
!
14 Ninian Magruder (1686? - 1751?) our source notes that Ninian
Magruder was born about 1688. He
married Elizabeth Brewer who was born Oct. 25, 1690 in Ann Arundel
County, Md. Ninian died in
Price George's County, Md. in 1753.
+Elizabeth Brewer b: October 25/26, 1690 in Anne Arundel County, MD
!
!
who were the parents of
!
!
15 John Magruder born Nov. 11, 1709 in Queen Anne's Parrish, Ann
Arundel Co. Md, died 1782.
He married Jane Offutt (1731-1787), daughter of William and Jane Joyce
Offutt.
aaron
hachis.parmentier
> In article
> <2b46b5dd-2ce0-4747-a987-652744313...@w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
Cousin Nat, Ah thought ah told you not to use long words like map when
you're writing to 3rd cousin Aaron. Hang on, ah'll ask 2nd cousin Bill
who's sitting next to me eating his toast and marmylaid. He's an
English prof so he should know what map is. Aw shucks, he doesn't
either. Don't go, we'll get back to you.
Hachis
Philippe
Can anyone join this wonderful extended family? I think Aaron and I
share the same blood, or at least the same black bile, through Mahulda
Magruder McDeleur.
Philippe de Mange, itching to get to a family reunion
Nathaniel Taylor
<a68329ca-4bac-427e...@a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
"AaronPa...@gmail.com" <AaronPa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes we have the same Clan Gregor articles . . .
> I am aware of what the Clan Gregor articles state.
> I do not have "the not-yet-published work of Brice M. Clagett." Is that
> extensive? Your footnote states that is source of "concise account of
> the compelling but circumstantial evidence" referred to above: is that
> available, and substantially different than Clan Gregor articles?
Following Brice Clagett's recent death I'm not sure anyone knows whether
and how his long-awaited book will be published. Some of Mr. Clagett's
many correspondents received drafts or portions of drafts of it over the
past several years, but they must remain private. In the Magruder case,
at least in the most recent draft I saw, he essentially summarized (in
one paragraph) Kurz & Magruder's argument for Magruder's identity and
parentage. I suggested to Brice a way to test the argument and perhaps
make it stronger but am not aware that he (or anyone else) followed up
on that suggestion.
The unique plantation name which appears to link the Maryland planter
with the apparent home parish and parentage parents, is a compelling but
not conclusive piece of evidence. Also the name "Magruder" was itself
apparently unique or nearly so, but one needs to do a better primary
record search of the immediate family of the apparent father to be able
to conclude that the Marylander must be his son of that name (who is
mentioned once in a Scottish record). Specifically, one needs to show
what records there are for any contemporary male-line kin of the
apparent father, either in the immediate vicinity or elsewhere. Kurz &
Magruder didn't do this, and I'm not aware that Brice got around to
commissioning any such work in Scottish sources. Sor far there's
nothing to show that the elder Alexander Magruder didn't have a nephew
or cousin Alexander as well as a son Alexander.
Renia
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perthshire
>
> Central Great Britain, albeit Scotland, lands of contention between
> north and south, oft called England, yes.
Perthshire is and was in Scotland. It has never been in England.
AaronPa...@gmail.com
Thanks for focusing the circumstantial portion of the pedigree.
Thusly,
Alexander Magruder I/Dunblane = Lady Margaret, dau. of Nichoas
Campbell/Delvany
circumstantially are the parents of
Alexander Magruder II/Prince George's Co., MD/Gateway Ancestor =
Sarah ?
Important imformation about this union in Scotland and further union
includes:
As such, we are concerned with some notables in history, in specific
locales.
Notably:
"born in Cargill, Scotland, 1610, captured by Oliver Cromwell at the
Battle of Worcester in 1651,
sentenced to have his name proscribed from MacGregor to Magruder, and
with 150 other prisoners was
sent to the Maryland Colony of America. He was bound to some colonist
for eight years service. He
is thought to have married and started a family in Scotland before
his
exile, and had had a son
Robert MacGregor educated in Edinburgh, who also came to America
afterwards." " Alexander
MacGreuther, the immigrant, was an Officer in the army of Charles II.
He was captured at the
Battle of Worcester in 1651 and sent as a prisoner of war to Virginia
through Barbados.
What records in Cargill, Scotland, 1610, would there be, in-and-about
that date, or elsewhere stored which would clarify the circumstantial
question into a fact of record? Also, would his apparent military
service
and previous marriage and son educated at Edinburgh be fanciful or
fact: and if fact, what would those records clarify? Also, given that
his mother circumstantially was "Lady Campbell" are there not records
to record that fact? Is it a case that the records do not exist or
that
no one has looked for them?
aaron
AaronPa...@gmail.com
OK. I do not know, and if you say so, I will take your Edinburgh,
Scots, word for it.
aaron
Philippe
Nowhere near the centre of Great Britain either, except in sibling
aBaIrLoLn's curious geography. Methinks he consulted the Wikipedia map
and observed the centrality of Perth vis-à-vis Scotland, and
extrapolated therefrom.
Philippe de Mange
wjhonson
their surname. From MacGregor to Magruder.
Does that seem odd to anyone else? I've never heard of this sort of
law before.
Will
Nathaniel Taylor
<998f2d73-b0c3-4672...@j1g2000prb.googlegroups.com>,
wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
Seems odd? It is certainly odd. It is also not true. This is the
just-so story which evolved to create the force-fit by which bad
genealogists made Magruders into emigrant MacGregors. Actually
'Magruder' has a distinct etymology, and the Magruders are a distinct
family, in no way related or politically affiliated with the MacGregors
(the Magruders were followers / tenants of the Drummonds in Perthshire).
Nathaniel Taylor
I've scanned the two important but obscure articles on Magruder by
Charles G. Kurz, and posted them. They are linked in a blog entry here
--
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/149
-- where you can also find a link to an interesting poem/prose thingy
about Alexander Magruder (not from our interlocutor here,
thankfully--it's by an authentic English professor / poet named Susan
Tichy).
AaronPa...@gmail.com
One critique of the marriage of Lady Margaret Campbell,1571-1631,
to Alexander Magruder I 1569-1677, is that there is no record of a
marriage between her and him in pedigrees in Great Britain. However,
inasmuch as she had been married three times and reportedly had ten
children, 6 by her first husband Andrew Drummond, it makes sense to
find her marriage to Magruder as Lady Margaret Drummond. See:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2008-06/1213152390
aaron
Nathaniel Taylor
<725a49b6-f335-449e...@f36g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"AaronPa...@gmail.com" <AaronPa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One critique of the marriage of Lady Margaret Campbell,1571-1631,
> to Alexander Magruder I 1569-1677, is that there is no record of a
> marriage between her and him in pedigrees in Great Britain.
Yes, there is: Kurz cites (though not very thoroughly) a compiled
genealogy of the Campbells of Keithick which apparently shows her three
marriages. I have not seen this work.
Note that it is incorrect and misleading to continue to refer to her
"Lady".
AaronPa...@gmail.com
> Note that it is incorrect and misleading to continue to refer to her
> "Lady".
>
> Nat Taylor
> a genealogist's sketchbook: http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/
"The ancestress of the Magruders in America has been designated in
Clan
Yearbooks as Lady Margaret Campbell, in courtesy of her descent from
the
2nd Earl of Argyll, in the manner that daughters of peers are honored.
She also could be styled Margaret Campbell, Lady Balmaclone or
Belliclone,
from the heritable interest in the lands that were granted jointly to
Margaret
and her husband Andrew Drummond. Thus, through later marriages she
could still be styled Lady Belliclone, for her joint interest
descended to her
eldest son, John, and ended with her grandson John Drummond, when the
male Drummond lairds of Belliclone became extinct."
[Dr. Charles G. Kurz, Clan Librarian, "The Ancestral History of
Margaret Campbell
of Keithick (1571-c.1631)," page 64, YEARBOOK OF THE AMERICAN CLAN
GREGOR SOCIETY, (1978). See online at:
http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/149
aaron
Nathaniel Taylor
<e652c6a8-017d-48bf...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
"AaronPa...@gmail.com" <AaronPa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 11, 10:06 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> > Note that it is incorrect and misleading to continue to refer to her
> > "Lady".
>
> "The ancestress of the Magruders in America has been designated in Clan
> Yearbooks as Lady Margaret Campbell, in courtesy of her descent from the
> 2nd Earl of Argyll, in the manner that daughters of peers are honored.
> She also could be styled Margaret Campbell, Lady Balmaclone or
> Belliclone, from the heritable interest in the lands that were granted
> jointly to Margaret and her husband Andrew Drummond.
>
> [Dr. Charles G. Kurz, Clan Librarian, "The Ancestral History of
> Margaret Campbell
> of Keithick (1571-c.1631)," page 64, YEARBOOK OF THE AMERICAN CLAN
> GREGOR SOCIETY, (1978). See online at:
>
> http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/149
Kurz was wrong about this.
The great-granddaughters (by illegitimate descent) of peers are NOT
entitled to be called "Lady firstname lastname": this style is used ONLY
for the daughters of dukes.
As for the territorial designation, it might have been correct to call
her "lady of Balmaclone," but this is a different form of reference: she
would have been called "Margaret Drummond, lady of Balmaclone", which is
very different from "Lady Margaret Campbell."
wjhonson
One thing that jumps immediately out is the lack of any documentation
stating or implying that his McGruder or Magruder line had any
connection from Scotland to Maryland.
I haven't read the second pdf yet, perhaps it's in there. The first
one is more concerned with detailing the records that record the life
of Margaret Campbell.
Will Johnson
Charles Ellson
Unlike e.g. "Lord" etc in the case of men, it has been quoted a number
of times in the media when reporting from prosecutions of offences
involving the use of names in the style "Lady <whatever>" that so long
as impersonation is not involved there is no law against a woman
choosing to be known that way irrespective of any absence of noble
connections.
wjhonson
-------------
I've now read through the second pdf which purports to trace the line
from Scotland to Maryland. I have to say it's quite without useful
substance. It's certainly *possible* that some Alexander Magruder
known to be an indentured servant in 1653 in Maryland is in fact the
second son of Alexander McGruder of Dunblane.
It's also probably much more likely that he is in fact, just an
indentured servant with a similar sounding name. And nothing more.
Occam's Razor says....
Will Johnson
Nathaniel Taylor
<d0ab05ad-36b3-41bd...@v26g2000prm.googlegroups.com>,
wjhonson <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
You have missed the most important pieces of circumstantial evidence --
which admittedly aren't given any systematic prominence by Kurz. In a
nutshell: first, the names of the Maryland man's plantations reproduce
the home farm of the alleged parents--and these are unique names, no
possible coincidence. Second, the name 'Magruder' is itself
microscopically small (the old supposition of equivalence to MacGregor
having been dispensed with). There simply weren't any 'other' Magruders
around. Given these two points, some connection of the Maryland
namesake to the alleged parents is certain, but there is no systematic
discussion of why he can't be a nephew or something.
AaronPa...@gmail.com
However, I think that if this was my problem, I'd be searching through
the
catalogues of the National Archives of Scotland, looking for proper
evidence. If the family was well-off, there's should be testaments
(on
Scotlands People), Services of Heirs, or other documents.
I think that I'd take one step further back and see what Black's
"Surnames
of Scotland" says about the surname Magruder. For some reason, I tend
to
associate it with Ireland rather than Scotland....
Also, it seems quite clear that Kurz lists 10 children in all and is
quite definitive
in listing 6 to Drummond and 4 to Magruder with "Lady Campbell" and
both
Nat Taylor and Lesley Robertson appear to have focused the search. I
wonder
if the ages of the principals named precludes a nephew? I have not
seen the
source of the alleged historical background of the emigrant/immigrant
Alexander
Magruder II, military, cause for indenture, etc., and wonder if there
are sources?
aaron
AaronPa...@gmail.com
I would also add, in support of Nat Taylor's statement that the
marriage
is not in dispute, I offer the following,
"...Margaret Campbell, relict of the said Andro, Alexander McGruder,
now
her spouse, William Drummond, younger of Belliclone..."
[source: page 600, of year 1605, THE REGISTER OF THE PRIVY COUNCIL
OF SCOTLAND, edited and abridged bny David Masson, LL.D., Professor
of Rhetoric and English Literature in the University of Edinburgh,
Vol. VIL,
A.D. 1604-1607, H.M. General Register House, Edinburgh, 1885]
Clearly, in 1605 it was McGruder, now Magruder. Also in the section
quoted
there is listings of Drummonds comfirming widow Margaret Campbell
Drummond
became the wife of Alexander McGruder aka Magruder. Inasmuch as
Alexander
Magruder is alleged to be born in 1610, this was prior to his birth.
Certainly,
other documents in and around Edinburgh should confirm Nat Taylor's
search.
aaron
t...@clearwire.net
On Jun 11, 4:19 pm, Charles Ellson <char...@ellson.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:56:42 -0400, Nathaniel Taylor
>
>
>
> <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> >In article
> ><e652c6a8-017d-48bf-91a6-c858fb417...@34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
> > "AaronParmen...@gmail.com" <AaronParmen...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> On Jun 11, 10:06 am, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> >> > Note that it is incorrect and misleading to continue to refer to her
> >> > "Lady".
>
> >> "The ancestress of the Magruders in America has been designated in Clan
> >> Yearbooks as Lady Margaret Campbell, in courtesy of her descent from the
> >> 2nd Earl of Argyll, in the manner that daughters of peers are honored.
> >> She also could be styled Margaret Campbell, Lady Balmaclone or
> >> Belliclone, from the heritable interest in the lands that were granted
> >> jointly to Margaret and her husband Andrew Drummond.
>
> >> [Dr. Charles G. Kurz, Clan Librarian, "The Ancestral History of
> >> Margaret Campbell
> >> of Keithick (1571-c.1631)," page 64, YEARBOOK OF THE AMERICAN CLAN
> >> GREGOR SOCIETY, (1978). See online at:
>
> >>http://www.nltaylor.net/sketchbook/archives/149
>
> >Kurz was wrong about this.
>
> >The great-granddaughters (by illegitimate descent) of peers are NOT
> >entitled to be called "Lady firstname lastname": this style is used ONLY
> >for the daughters of dukes.
>
> >As for the territorial designation, it might have been correct to call
> >her "lady of Balmaclone," but this is a different form of reference: she
> >would have been called "Margaret Drummond, lady of Balmaclone", which is
> >very different from "Lady Margaret Campbell."
>
> Unlike e.g. "Lord" etc in the case of men, it has been quoted a number
> of times in the media when reporting from prosecutions of offences
> involving the use of names in the style "Lady <whatever>" that so long
> as impersonation is not involved there is no law against a woman
> choosing to be known that way irrespective of any absence of noble
> connections.
As Nat said, by the 'rules', it is incorrect. If, as you suggest, the
rules are just suggestions and anyone can be called Lady, then it adds
no distinction whatsoever, and its selective use is misleading,
implying a distinction where none exists. Either way, then, its use
for this one particular individual is out of order.
taf
Matthew Connolly
>
> The great-granddaughters (by illegitimate descent) of peers are NOT
> entitled to be called "Lady firstname lastname": this style is used ONLY
> for the daughters of dukes.
Not just dukes, it is also used for the daughters of marquesses and
earls; daughters of viscounts and barons being styled "The Hon.
firstname lastname".
Lesley Robertson
news:1e4846e4-d79f-4c26...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for reminding me to check Black's "Surnames"
He gives Macgruder as a variant of Macgruar, along with more than a
dozen other variations. Translates as "brewer's son". First recorded
in a 1447 charter when Gilawnan McCrouder was a witness. Most common
in central Scotland, but Black mentions a family of Macgruers of the
north who are merged with the Frasers. No mention of any link to Clan
Gregor.
Lesley Robertson
Nathaniel Taylor
<1e4846e4-d79f-4c26...@t54g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
Matthew Connolly <mvernon...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On Jun 11, 10:56 pm, Nathaniel Taylor <nltay...@nltaylor.net> wrote:
> >
> > The great-granddaughters (by illegitimate descent) of peers are NOT
> > entitled to be called "Lady firstname lastname": this style is used ONLY
> > for the daughters of dukes.
>
> Not just dukes, it is also used for the daughters of marquesses and
> earls.
Right; sorry. But not the great-granddaughter of an earl -- neither
'lady' nor 'hon.'.
AaronPa...@gmail.com
> He gives Macgruder as a variant of Macgruar, along with more than a
> dozen other variations. Translates as "brewer's son". First recorded
> in a 1447 charter when Gilawnan McCrouder was a witness. Most common
> in central Scotland, but Black mentions a family of Macgruers of the
> north who are merged with the Frasers. No mention of any link to Clan
> Gregor.
> Lesley Robertson
Thanks, Lesley, for taking the time to check up on McGruder/Magruder.
By the way, how does one search through the catalogues of the
National Archives of Scotland, looking for proper
evidence? Is it online, or do you have to go to Edinburgh? And if
the
family was well-off, and there's should be testaments (on Scotlands
People),
Services of Heirs, or other documents, are those similar? Someone
sent
me the Privy Council of Scotland info. It seems certain to me that
"Lady Campbell" with descent from Charlemagne, Robert the Bruce,
and William I The Conqueror King of England was "well-off" and her
second marriage to Alexander Magruder I should have recorded her
four children, including her namesake son, Alexander Magruder II.
aaron
Lesley Robertson
<AaronPa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0692454a-4358-4bb2...@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>Thanks, Lesley, for taking the time to check up on McGruder/Magruder.
By the way, how does one search through the catalogues of the
National Archives of Scotland, looking for proper
evidence? Is it online, or do you have to go to Edinburgh?
http://www.nas.gov.uk/. Then [catalogues and indexes] in the list on the
right, then [NAS catalogue] in the middle of the next screen (I don't know
why they can't just have a search link from the front screen). I always
start simple, with just one or two words, then focus down if I get too many
hits. The actual docs aren't on line, just the index, but the index is very
setailed and there's almost as much info as in the originals (especially
when you realise that old originals are vry hard to read until you've
learned Secretary Hand and old scots.
>And if the family was well-off, and there's should be testaments (on
>Scotlands
People), Services of Heirs, or other documents, are those similar?
There's 2 sorts of document in the testaments section of SP - actual wills
and invetories. The latter, as you might expect, is simply a list of
possessions. You can see on line what you're getting for your money.
> Someone sent me the Privy Council of Scotland info. It seems certain to
> me that
"Lady Campbell" with descent from Charlemagne, Robert the Bruce,
and William I The Conqueror King of England was "well-off" and her
second marriage to Alexander Magruder I should have recorded her
four children, including her namesake son, Alexander Magruder II.
I think you'll have gathered by now that most of use take such illustrious
lines of descent with large pinches of salt until they're validated. Half of
the population of Europe can probably claim descent from one or the other of
those gentlemen. There's no reason to assume anything about her financial
status, as someone else has pointed out, in those days, any wife of a local
Laird might call herself "Lady", regardles of whether he husband had a title
or knighthood and regardless of whether he had a significant estate or just
an acre and a house with one more room than his workers. Even where
significant money or titles were involved, this was easily lost, and tended
to stay with the older sons. The youngest son of a youngest son over several
generations could easily end up as an ag lab, their illustrious connections
forgotten.
The other dangerous assumtion that you seem to be making is that all records
have survived. Few records were kept, and even if a record was made, there's
a lot against it still being around and legible today. To name but a few: P
Poor quality paper and corrosive ink are a problem even when records have
been kept with great care (I have material in the archive I care for which
needed expensive neutralisation after only 100 years).
Damp and insects. Few buildings in Scotland were completely waterproof (eg
as late as the 1780s, the Whitsome Minister was complaining that his
thatched church was damp and drafty) and it's amazing how fast paper rots.
Neglect. There was no requirement to record baptisms, etc, until
comparatively recent times, and they weren't as obssessed with records as we
are. I suppose they figured that their gods would know who'd really been
baptised, or whatever.
Ignorance and malice: There's known cases where people took the registers
with them when they left a parish, there's other cases where people saw the
books as sources of paper (valuable stuff). All rare, but Murphy's law of
genealogy seems to require that the missing register is the one I need.
Of course, war is one of the great enemies of record keeping. It doesn't
matter if the Church building was burned by cross Border raiders or a bomb
from a plane, fire doesn't do a lot for the survival of records.
No doubt I've left out other reasons. Acid rain and sandstone grave markers,
for example.
All in all, I think we should be grateful for the records that have
survived. I don't think any of the lines on my family tree go back beyond
the 17th century, and one line doesn't even go back beyond the 19th century
because the records just aren't there anymore.
Lesley Robertson
AaronPa...@gmail.com
wrote:
> <AaronParmen...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Hi, Lesley Robertson. That has got to be one of the most thoughtful
responses
I have ever got here at rootsweb. I found your website and the links
to all the
sources you mention. I have my work cut out for me. Thank you, so
much,
again and again. And good searching in your own family search
endeavors.
aaron