Rollo's origin
raymond l montgomery
see below for the documentation on the origin of rollo and his brother
Gorm.
If any one has any other evidence i would be very interested in recieving
it.
1. The statement in De Moribus et actis Primorum Normanniae Ducum by Dudo
st. Quentin who wrote this story at the request of Richard 1 Rollo's
Grandson that Rollo was a Danish prince
this was written 60 years after rollos death compared to 200 years for
snorre's sagas.
2. According to Dudo rollo had a brother named Gorm also a danish prince.
(the progenitor of the Montgomery's) The gorm arrived in france in the
company of his uncle Sigfrid, Ragnars son, and of Godrid the son of
Harold Klak.
Barnard Danus a decendant of Gorm was called a dane or danus. (Bernard
Danus is the progenitor of the harcourt family) This Gorm took a
prominent part in the battle of Saulcourt fount on the 3rd of august
881and then passed to lorraine( A) Gorm also used the palace of the
emperor Otto at Aachen as stables (B) and in the treaty of Esloo he was
paid of in gold and silver. ( Plura Millia argenti et auri) (C)
3. Rollo was present at the siege of Paris in 885 and according to Dudo
above Aethelstan sent Rollo present sasking him to leave the siege and
come to his assistance against his rebellious subjects. Thus we know that
Rollo was fighting in France with the sons of Lothbroc like his brother
Gorm.
4. Gorm is mentioned among the descendants of Lothbroc (D)
5. William the conqueror was a descendant in the fifth generation from
Rollo Invars Son. After williams arrival in England William opened
Ingvars Grave (E)
6. For many generations Rollos descendants and Gorms Descendants were
closely connected
Bernard the dane was the cheif counsellor to rollos son Guilliam (F)
7. The Montgomery's have ever since the beginning of Armorial Bearings
carried much th same arms as the royal house of denmark, france and
England (F)
Sincerely
RAY Montgomery
(A) (Rerum Gallicarum Scriptores IX, 58 B @Alberic of Trois-Fontianes)
(B) Adam of Bremen
(C) Cronolocia Rerum Septrionalium @ Langebek, V, 127
(D) Annal. Esrom @ Langebek , I , 229
(E) Ragnars Saga Chapter 22
(F) History of the montgomerys by G. B. De Montgomery
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Todd A. Farmerie
>
> To whom it may concern
> see below for the documentation on the origin of rollo and his brother
> Gorm.
> If any one has any other evidence i would be very interested in recieving
> it.
> 1. The statement in De Moribus et actis Primorum Normanniae Ducum by Dudo
> st. Quentin who wrote this story at the request of Richard 1 Rollo's
> Grandson that Rollo was a Danish prince
> this was written 60 years after rollos death compared to 200 years for
> snorre's sagas.
> 2. According to Dudo rollo had a brother named Gorm also a danish prince.
> (the progenitor of the Montgomery's) The gorm arrived in france in the
> company of his uncle Sigfrid, Ragnars son, and of Godrid the son of
> Harold Klak.
Except that Sigfrid was not son of Ragnar, and the Gorm that accompanied
him to France need not be identical to the brother of Rollo (and as to
him being ancestor of the Montgomery's, I doubt this comes from a
reliable source - Hugh being the earliest well documented member of the
family).
> Barnard Danus a decendant of Gorm was called a dane or danus. (Bernard
> Danus is the progenitor of the harcourt family)
According to tradition, yes, but I doubt it is correct.
> This Gorm took a
> prominent part in the battle of Saulcourt fount on the 3rd of august
> 881and then passed to lorraine( A) Gorm also used the palace of the
> emperor Otto at Aachen as stables (B) and in the treaty of Esloo he was
> paid of in gold and silver. ( Plura Millia argenti et auri) (C)
> 3. Rollo was present at the siege of Paris in 885 and according to Dudo
> above Aethelstan sent Rollo present sasking him to leave the siege and
> come to his assistance against his rebellious subjects. Thus we know that
> Rollo was fighting in France with the sons of Lothbroc like his brother
> Gorm.
Hold it. There is no evidence that any sons of Lothbroc (whoever that
was) were fighting in France. If I recall correctly, the first
assignment of any of these people to Lothbroc is in 1070, almost 200
years late.
> 4. Gorm is mentioned among the descendants of Lothbroc (D)
How contemporary is this source?
> 5. William the conqueror was a descendant in the fifth generation from
> Rollo Invars Son. After williams arrival in England William opened
> Ingvars Grave (E)
Hold it. This is a huge leap. Rollo Invar's son? This is entirely
without support.
> 6. For many generations Rollos descendants and Gorms Descendants were
> closely connected
> Bernard the dane was the cheif counsellor to rollos son Guilliam (F)
I don't know that Bernard can be documented, and particularly not as
Gorm's son. If he was Gorms son, the position is not surprising, but it
in no way supports a claim for Rollo's origin, except perhaps when
linked to the next clai, which seems to be flawed.
> 7. The Montgomery's have ever since the beginning of Armorial Bearings
> carried much th same arms as the royal house of denmark, france and
> England (F)
The beginning of Armorial Bearings can be dated to the 12th century,
over 300 years later. The first English coat had a single lion. The
first one for France was a field of fleur-du-lis. (I don't know Denmark
off hand.) These two have no similatity to each other. What was
Montgomery? If it had a lion on it, so what. So did half of the early
coats. If it didn't have a lion on it, what is the similarity?
taf
raymond l montgomery
On Tue, 13 Jul 1999 14:48:19 -0400 "Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu>
writes:
This is per a Germanic genealogie in paris see below at Cabinet des
Titres vol 20780 and accompanied with Dudo's work
There is also documentation concerning in the Foundation Charter of Troan
which is dated various as to 900-975
That there was a roger son of roger the great Possibly roger son of gorm
(roger being gorms baptismal name)
This roger son of Roger is not the roger of the conquest as the charter
is to early.
>> Barnard Danus a decendant of Gorm was called a dane or danus.
>(Bernard
>> Danus is the progenitor of the harcourt family)
>
>According to tradition, yes, but I doubt it is correct.
>
>> This Gorm took a
>> prominent part in the battle of Saulcourt fount on the 3rd of august
>> 881and then passed to lorraine( A) Gorm also used the palace of the
>> emperor Otto at Aachen as stables (B) and in the treaty of Esloo he
>was
>> paid of in gold and silver. ( Plura Millia argenti et auri) (C)
>> 3. Rollo was present at the siege of Paris in 885 and according to
>Dudo
>> above Aethelstan sent Rollo present sasking him to leave the siege
>and
>> come to his assistance against his rebellious subjects. Thus we know
>that
>> Rollo was fighting in France with the sons of Lothbroc like his
>brother
>> Gorm.
>
>Hold it. There is no evidence that any sons of Lothbroc (whoever that
>was) were fighting in France. If I recall correctly, the first
>assignment of any of these people to Lothbroc is in 1070, almost 200
>years late.
This is agian per the materials in the notes!!!
Also Annals of the Four Masters discribes the grandsons of Ingvar
Ragnarson as Guillam ancester of the Montgomery's, Barnard Danus
ancesters of the dukes of Harcourt, and Sihtric a Viking chief, Whom
Bernardus called to his assistance agianst the king of France (Vide page
28)
>> 4. Gorm is mentioned among the descendants of Lothbroc (D)
>How contemporary is this source?
I will have to check my notes on this one,
>> 5. William the conqueror was a descendant in the fifth generation
>from
>> Rollo Invars Son. After williams arrival in England William opened
>> Ingvars Grave (E)
This is supported in the material per the notes.
>Hold it. This is a huge leap. Rollo Invar's son? This is entirely
>without support.
>
>> 6. For many generations Rollos descendants and Gorms Descendants
>were
>> closely connected
>> Bernard the dane was the cheif counsellor to rollos son Guilliam (F)
>
>I don't know that Bernard can be documented, and particularly not as
>Gorm's son. If he was Gorms son, the position is not surprising, but
>it
>in no way supports a claim for Rollo's origin, except perhaps when
>linked to the next clai, which seems to be flawed.
this is supported by a germanic geneologie in the Bibliotheque National
in Paris
(Cabinet des Titres Vol 20780)
>> 7. The Montgomery's have ever since the beginning of Armorial
>Bearings
>> carried much th same arms as the royal house of denmark, france and
>> England (F)
>
>The beginning of Armorial Bearings can be dated to the 12th century,
>over 300 years later. The first English coat had a single lion. The
>first one for France was a field of fleur-du-lis. (I don't know
>Denmark
>off hand.) These two have no similatity to each other. What was
>Montgomery? If it had a lion on it, so what. So did half of the
>early
>coats. If it didn't have a lion on it, what is the similarity?
>
>taf
Hope this helps
Sincerely
RAY
Stewart Baldwin
montgomery) wrote:
[much snipping]
>This is agian per the materials in the notes!!!
>Also Annals of the Four Masters discribes the grandsons of Ingvar
>Ragnarson as Guillam ancester of the Montgomery's, Barnard Danus
>ancesters of the dukes of Harcourt, and Sihtric a Viking chief, Whom
>Bernardus called to his assistance agianst the king of France (Vide page
>28)
(Page 28 of what?)
I would be very surprised if the Annals of the Four Masters [AFM] say
any such thing. I have examined AFM (and the other Irish annals) in
great detail for any information they might provide on the early
Vikings, and have never seen anything there with regard to alleged
grandsons of Ivar named Guillam or Barnard, nor would you expect the
Irish annals to have any information at all regarding the alleged
Viking ancestry of the Montgomerys or Harcourts, so it is a strange
claim to begin with. Have you actually checked AFM yourself, or are
you just taking some book's word that AFM says that? If the latter is
the case, then that book would be an excellent candidate for the waste
basket.
Stewart Baldwin
Todd A. Farmerie
I don't know what this Germanic genealogy might be, but being germanic,
it doesn't sound all that close to a near-contemporary compilation. As
to the Foundation Charter of Troan, any foundation charter that can't be
dated to within closer that 75 years stands a good chance of being a
forgery.
> >> 4. Gorm is mentioned among the descendants of Lothbroc (D)
>
> >How contemporary is this source?
>
> I will have to check my notes on this one,
I checked mine. Gorm is mentioned in a French/Flemish context. The
first mention of Lothbroc in this context is in 1070, 200 years after
the fact, and cannot be accepted as reliable. (This mention, by the way
is for an entirely different viking, Berno. Any association with Gorm
must be later.) For what it's worth, this Gorm (also appearing as
Vorm), through his association with the viking leader Sigefrid, probably
ended up contributing to Sigurd Worm-in-eye's nickname (along the same
lines as the earlier association of Sigefrid and Anulo produced Sigurd
Ring).
> >> 5. William the conqueror was a descendant in the fifth generation
> >from
> >> Rollo Invars Son. After williams arrival in England William opened
> >> Ingvars Grave (E)
>
> This is supported in the material per the notes.
I note that your source here is Ragnars saga. This is late and
definitely not a reliable compilation since it is based on the legendary
life of a composite and mostly fictional Ragnar.
taf