Maud Throckmorton Greene Middleton Harewell families

[jma...@msn.com]

It appears an IPM dated January 10, 1506 related to John Harewell son of William Harewell references an indenture between William Harewell and "Maud Green" related to lands held in trust for William's son John and his wife Anne, daughter of "Maud Green." It seems to be accepted that Maud Green was born Maud Throckmorton and married first Thomas Greene and second Richard Middleton, with whom she is said to have had Anne Middleton, wife of John Harewell.

If Anne was of Maud's second marriage, why is she referred to as "Maud Green"
at a point in time long after Thomas Green died, Maud remarried and Anne Middleton (Green?) was born? Any explanation of the proof Maud is Maud Throckmorton is appreciated. Do I have the order of her marriages wrong?


The reference I have is Cyril Flower, M. C. B. Dawes and A. C. Wood, 'Inquisitions Post Mortem, Henry VII, Entries 51-100', in Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem: Series 2, Volume 3, Henry VII (London, 1955), pp. 33-56. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/inquis-post-mortem/series2-vol3/pp33-56 [accessed 29 August 2016]

I note Henry Wogan of Pendercast (Pendergast?) possibly William Harewell's father or brother-in-law is mentioned in this IPM. This is the first link I have found arguably supporting the pedigrees showing William Harewell married Agnes Wogan daughter of Sir Henry Wogan and Margaret Herbert.

[wjhonson]

I wonder if the IPM or disposition upon the death of the heir Thomas Harewell could be found. That might list the ages of the co-heiresses which could be very useful for determining how old the mother (Anne) herself could be

[taf]

Likely informative is the following suit:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7457170

Harewell v Throkmorton.

Plaintiffs: Anne Harewell, late the wife of John Harewell, esquire, son of William Harewell.

Defendants: Robert Throkmorton, knight, Richard Throkmorton, and Thomas, William, and John Harewell, feoffees to uses.

Subject: Settlement by the said John and William, his father, on the said John and Anne, of part of the manor of Kington and lands in Kington, Woolton, Whitley, Offord, Preston, and Wawensmere; and of the manors of Billingsley, Burwardsley, Wrikton, Walkerslow, Much Postern, and Little Postern.

taf

[Vance Mead]

http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/ChP/C1no141/IMG_0040.htm

This is the original:
The answer of William Harwell & Thomas Harwell to the byll of compleynt of Ane Harwell wedow

[taf]

Well, that's disappointing.

taf

[Douglas Richardson]

My comments are interspersed below. DR

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 10:31:25 PM UTC-6, jma...@msn.com wrote:

> It appears an IPM dated January 10, 1506 related to John Harewell son of William Harewell references an indenture between William Harewell and "Maud Green" related to lands held in trust for William's son John and his wife Anne, daughter of "Maud Green." It seems to be accepted that Maud Green was born Maud Throckmorton and married first Thomas Greene and second Richard Middleton, with whom she is said to have had Anne Middleton, wife of John Harewell.
>
> If Anne was of Maud's second marriage, why is she referred to as "Maud Green"

It was common in the medieval period for widows to retain the surname of their first husband after they remarried to subsequent husbands. In this case, Maud Throckmorton, widow of Thomas Greene, Knt. was known as Lady Maud Greene following her 2nd marriage to Richard Middleton, Esq. For example, see the three records below taken from the online Discovery catalogue.

You can be certain that Anne, wife of John Harewell, was a child of her mother's Middleton marriage. There is an effigy of John Harewell and his wife, Anne, in the church of Wootton Wawen, Warwickshire. This tomb displays the arms of John Harewell impaling the arms of Owgan, his mother's family: or, on a chief sa, three martlets or. Above the figure of his wife, Anne Middleton, are the arms of Grey of Enville (her second husband's family) impaling Middleton of Belsay, her own family. Reference: Cooper, Wootton Wawen, its History and Records (1936): 109.

< Do I have the order of her marriages wrong?

You have it correctly stated. Maud Throckmorton married (1st) Thomas Greene, Knt. and (2nd) Richard Middleton, Esq.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

+ + + + + + + + +

Reference: E 326/6791
Description:
Parties: Richard Middelton, Esq., Lady Maud Grene his wife, and Thomas Grene, Esq & Margaret Kyng, widow, farmer of the manor of Foxgrove in Beckenham; Place or Subject: The manor of Foxgrove in Beckenham (Bekenham), [Receipt]. County: Kent
Date: 2 Ric III
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

* * * * * * * * *

Reference: E 326/5661
Description:
Parties: Gervase Clyfton, Esq & Richard Middelton, Esq., Lady Maud Grene, his wife, Robt. Throgmerton, Esq., and Nich. Russel, clerk; Place or Subject: The manor of Wandesley (Wannesley) and lands in Selston. County: Notts
Date: 15 Edw IV
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

+ + + + + + + + +

Reference: E 327/719
Description:
Grantor: Robert Throkmarton, esquire, and Nicholas Russell, clerk; Grantee: Richard Middleton, esquire, and the Lady Maud Grene, his wife: Release of their right in the moiety of the manor of Wandesley [in Annesley] called 'Cresse Fee', and in their lands, etc. in Selston; County: Nottinghamshire
Date: 8 Edw IV
Held by: The National Archives, Kew

[jma...@msn.com]

[jma...@msn.com]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 4:45:11 AM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:

Thank you for the response.

I note that a Sir Henry Wogan (possible son or husband of Margaret Herbert sister of Earl William and father of Anne Middleton's mother-in-law Agnes Harewell), Thomas Herbert (perhaps brother of William Herbert and second husband of Agnes Clopton mother of William Harewell husband of Agnes Wogan and father-in-law of Anne Middleton) and a Richard Middleton were all arrested, imprisoned and nearly executed as parties to the alleged treason of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester in 1447. Is there any evidence clarifying the identity of these individuals or this apparent relationship? I noted two transfers of property described in John Harewell's IPM by William Harewell Henry Wogan of Penedergast in trust for the benefit of William's son John and his wife Anne. Thomas Green, Maud Green and John Smyth (likley son-in-law of Anne Middleton) are mentioned in connection with these transfers.

[Kay Allen]

Neither this post or Douglas' previous post have show up in the archives. Is there a problem?
K

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[Robert O'Connor]

The reference to Sir Henry Wogan/Owgan interests me. I have the first wife of Thomas Pauncefote, of Hasfield, Gloucestershire (d 1475), and mother of his son & heir Henry, as Agatha, daughter of Sir Henry Owgan.

I wonder if this is one and the same knight?

Robert O'Connor

[wjhonson]

And see

https://books.google.com/books?id=bapCAAAAYAAJ&dq=thomas%20aston%20bridget&pg=PA185#v=onepage&q=thomas%20aston%20bridget&f=true

[wjhonson]

And the proof that co-heiress Elizabeth was twice married

https://books.google.com/books?id=BYIHAAAAQAAJ&dq=thomas%20aston%20bridget&pg=PA22#v=onepage&q=thomas%20aston%20bridget&f=false

[James Allie]

I am new to the site. Its possible that is the reason things are not happening as expected.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 31, 2016, at 9:57 PM, Kay Allen <all...@pacbell.net<mailto:all...@pacbell.net>> wrote:

Neither this post or Douglas' previous post have show up in the archives. Is there a problem?

K

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 6:50 PM, "jma...@msn.com<mailto:jma...@msn.com>" <jma...@msn.com<mailto:jma...@msn.com>> wrote:


On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 4:45:11 AM UTC-4, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> My comments are interspersed below. DR
>

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[jma...@msn.com]

On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 8:15:51 AM UTC-4, wjhonson wrote:
> And see
>
> https://books.google.com/books?id=bapCAAAAYAAJ&dq=thomas%20aston%20bridget&pg=PA185#v=onepage&q=thomas%20aston%20bridget&f=true

The daughters and son (deceased) of Anne Middleton and John Harewell.

[John Higgins]

Robert:

I too have Agatha, daughter of Sir Henry Owgan [or Wogan] as the 1st wife of Thomas Pauncefote, of Hasfield. But I haven't been able to locate Agatha in any pedigree of the various branches of the Wogan family. I would be interested if anyone has had better luck identifying her.

Earlier in this thread, it was noted that Sir Henry Wogan, "possible son or husband of Margaret Herbert sister of Earl William [i.e., Earl of Pembroke]" was the father of Agnes, wife of William Harewell. Margaret Herbert was in fact both the wife and the mother of a Henry Wogan. Her son Henry Wogan appears to be the first Wogan to be "of Prendergast", by virtue of his marriage to Elizabeth Joyce of Prendergast.

FWIW the pedigree of this particular Wogan family in Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies does not include a daughter Agnes married to William Harewell. See table Bleddyn ap Maenyrch 2(A1) here:
http://cadair.aber.ac.uk/dspace/bitstream/handle/2160/5373/BLEDDYN%20AP%20MAENYRCH%202%28A1%29_165.png?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
She does however appear in a somewhat sketchier pedigree of the family in West Wales Historical Records, 6:194 (1916). The reference to her in this pedigree appears to be based on a Harleian manuscript (MS 1043, which may be the same MS on which the Harewell pedigree in the 1569 visitation of Worcestershire is based. If so, I don't know how accurate this placement of her may be, since the short treatment of the Wogan family in the visitation pedigree is also at variance with Bartrum. Is there any other evidence regarding the specific identification of her father?

(Note that the Bartrum pedigree also does not show Agatha (Wogan) Pauncefote.)

[jma...@msn.com]

All I have so far is:
1) Proof of an "Agnes Harewell" widow of William Harewell (IPMs etc);

2) A history or visitation on the Clopton family that shows Agnes Wogan as daughter of an unspecified Henry Wogan that married William Harewell (William Harewell's mother was Agnes Clopton and I can trace inherited properties that in my view confirm this conclusion);

3)the Wogan arms on a Harewell tombs;

4) deeds in trust that show William Harewell and Henry Wogan of Pendergast transferring property in trust for William's son John and his wife Anne.

I am trying to trace properties from Harewells back to the Wogans but have not had luck with that approach. I do note strong connections among these Cloptons, Herberts, Harewels and Middletons (Yorkists and part of the affinity of Humphrey Duke of Gloucester) which makes the proposed connection and claims in the histories or visitations plausible.

My best guess is Henry Wogan was either Henry (d. 1475) (Steward of Pembroke) or his son who at least in Stirnet is refereed to as of Pendergast. I will pull the Clopton pedigree to get you the citation.

[jma...@msn.com]

I could not find the Clopton cite yet, but I do have The Antiquities of Warwickshire Illustrated, Dugdale, page 600. This article is on the Harewells and shows Agnes daughter of Henry Wogan marrying William Harewell. The article is from 1653. I note Dugdale labels William Harewell a Lanacatrian not a Yorkist.

[John Higgins]

With respect to Clopton, perhaps you're thinking of the Harewell pedigree in the 1569 visitation of Worcestershire. See pp. 73-74 here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n85/mode/2up

I don't disagree with your hypothesis that the "Henry Wogan" associated with the Harewells is either Sir Henry (d. 1475) or his son Henry of Prendergast. If there's a specific reference to Henry Wogan "of Prendergast" in the 1506 IPM of John Harewell that you mentioned earlier, that would seem to decide the issue without needing to rely on just the visitation pedigree.

I couldn't find the John Harewell IPM (or any mention of a Harewell or Wogan) at the website you cited at the beginning of this thread. Am I missing something?

[taf]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 2:30:12 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:

> I couldn't find the John Harewell IPM (or any mention of a Harewell or Wogan) at the
> website you cited at the beginning of this thread. Am I missing something?

There are four (as Harwell) in vol. III of the ipms of Henry VII, pp. 46, 47, 141, 297

https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005687945;view=1up;seq=58
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005687945;view=1up;seq=59
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005687945;view=1up;seq=153
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015005687945;view=1up;seq=309

'Henry Woogan of Prendercast' is named in the second. William Harwell, Woogan, Thomas Balsall, clerk, John Norwood and Thomas Clopton, esqs, and John Smyth, gent., held Asseley, Longnorley and Walterton, Staffs, and enfeoffed them in trust to the use of John Harwell and Anne, his wife and the heirs of their bodies, and in default to the right heirs of William.

taf

[taf]

On Friday, September 2, 2016 at 2:30:12 PM UTC-7, John Higgins wrote:
>

> With respect to Clopton, perhaps you're thinking of the Harewell pedigree in the 1569
> visitation of Worcestershire. See pp. 73-74 here:
> http://www.archive.org/stream/visitationcount02mundgoog#page/n85/mode/2up

There is also a pedigree of the same Harewell line on p. 71

The first call's William's wife _____ Morgan of Pendergast, the second Agnes Owgan of Wiston, Pembroke.

taf

[Don Stone]

Kay,

The post you quoted from "jma...@msn.com" and the post it quoted from Douglas Richardson are now in the archives.

I'm not sure why the RootsWeb archive system is sluggish, but I suggest that if you don't see something that you expect to see, look again in a little while. [Ironically, I have had lots of practice using this strategy recently. I submitted this post to GEN-MEDIEVAL three times in the past 24 hours and every time it apparently disappeared into the ether, so I'm submitting it via soc.genealogy.medieval. Evidently, things are still not working very reliably for RootsWeb lists.]

Note that RootsWeb has been good about maintaining stable URLs (addresses) for archived messages (accessed via http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/index/gen-medieval). This is important when, for example, you want to email some friends to inform them about a discussion that has taken place on this list and thus you want to point them to the root (start) of the discussion thread. You can go to the archive, find and display the root post and then copy the URL of that post into your email. (But, just to be safe, also mention the date and at least the beginning of the subject of this root post, so that people can find it for themselves in the archive if necessary.)

-- Don Stone

[jma...@msn.com]

Thank you. Given the Wogan arm's on John Harewell's tomb, I was thinking the various references to Whogan, Owgan and Morgan of Pendergast are misreadings and Henry Wogan of Pendercast in one IPM or Pendercaster as indicated in a second IPM is Henry Wogan of Pendergast son of Henry Wogan (d 1475). Of course either Agnes' father or brother could be a party to the transfer of land in trust for her son.

[John Higgins]

Thanks, Todd, for pointing these out. I see now that I missed these in the website originally specified because of the variant spellings of the surnames: "Harwell" and "Woogan". I should have considered that....

[Douglas Richardson]

As a followup to my earlier post, below is a brief abstract of a lawsuit dated 1530 which concerns Anne Middleton, widow and executrix of Edward Grey, Knt.

In Hilary term 1530 Anne Grey, widow, Thomas Grey, Esq., and Alan Hord, Gent., executors of Edward Grey, Knt. sued John Stanley, Esq., of Bromwich, Staffordshire in the Court of Common Pleas regarding a debt of £30.

Reference: Court of Common Pleas, CP40/1064, image c858d (available at http://aalt.law.uh.edu/H8/CP40no1064/cCP40no1064dorses/IMG_0858.htm).

The above lawsuit proves that Anne (Middleton) (Harewell) Grey was living in Hilary term 1530.

[tammy...@gmail.com]

Where can I find info on brass rubbings of john n Anne Hartwell? It's signed Stephen _ 72

[wjhonson]

Is this Edward Grey of Enville the same man who married firstly Joyce Horde? or Whorwood? and secondly Elizabeth Erdeswick