La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection ?

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The...@aol.com

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Jun 14, 2003, 11:55:22 PM6/14/03
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Saturday, 14 June, 2003


Hello All,

While innocently researching other lines, I noted two websites
which allege a connection between the family of La Zouche and the
Constables of Flamborough, co. Yorks. The property in question is
Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. (or rather a moiety thereof). Details from
the websites in question are given below [1].

Prior to discounting the connection indicated, I noted that the
Constable generation in question shows one Marmaduke Constable who d.
1 June 1378. The pedigree from Burke (Commoners) is problematic (how
unusual), but other than giving this Marmaduke a son married to a
'Joan FitzHugh' the 14th/15th century generations appear reasonable.
The chronology works with this Marmaduke Constable and his wife being
born say 1320/30, with their son Robert being born say 1353, and
married 1381 (to Margaret Skipwith) [2].

There is support found in PRO records for the inheritance of
Lubbesthorpe (or a moiety thereof) by the Constable family, to-wit:

' FILE ref. 26D53/422 - date: Jan. 1399/1400
Leics., Lubbesthorpe.
Receipt of Sir Robert Conestable to Sir Hugh de Sherlay
by hands of Thos. Dodeman for 8 marks, for the farm of the
manor of Lubbesthorpe for Easter and Michaelmas 1399.' [3]

Contributions from Pat Junkin and others give additional fuel to
this fire. In particular, the following information is to be found in
the SGM archives:

1. Grant, of 1302:

C 143/40/6
'Roger la Zouch to grant a messuage, brushwood, land,
and rent in Lubbesthorpe to a chaplain of the chapel of
St. Peter there, retaining land. Leic.
30 EDWARD I. [1302]' [4]

2. Evidently from the IPM of Roger la Zouche, d. 1304:

"In 1304 Roger la Zouch deceased held the manor of
Lubbesthorpe of William la Zouch by the service of the third
part of a knight零 fee; Roger la Zouch, son and heir of the
aforesaid Roger was then aged 11 ...." [5]

3. Grants of land in Lubbesthorpe and elsewhere, 1349/50:

C 143/292/5
'William la Zouche, late dean of the church of St. Peter,
York, and Roger la Zouche, knight, to grant rent in North
Witham and Gunby to a chaplain in the parish church of
Clipsham. Lincoln. The same to grant messuages and land in
Lubbesthorpe to certain chaplains in the chapel of St.
Mary there, the said Roger retaining land and rent in
Lubbesthorpe.
Leic. 23 EDWARD III ' [6]


The lineage, as outlined in the website noted below (excluding the
erroneous first generation) would appear to be:

Eudes la Zouche = Millicent de Cantelou
______________I
I
Roger la Zouche, younger son, b. say 1277/78 (?),
of Lubbesthorpe, Leics.; d. 1304
______________I
I
Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
= 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
____I______________________________________ I
I I I I
William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
(dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress
= Marmaduke
Constable
d. 1 June 1378
I
I
Robert Constable
of Flamborough, Yorks. &
Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
d bef 8 Jan 1400/01


Should anyone have further documentation as to the validity of
this line (and the connection to La Zouche of Harringworth), I (and
other Constable descendants) would appreciate hearing of it.

Cheers,

John *


NOTES

[1] http://freespace.virgin.net/owston.tj/zouche.htm

ZOUCHE FAMILY
OF LUBESTHORPE, IN LEICESTERSHIRE

1. William la Zouche, alive 5 Apr 30 Edward 1, married and had issue:-
2. Sir Roger la Zouche, died 1303.

2. Sir Roger la Zouche, died 1303.of Lubesthorpe, in Leicester (given
by Milicent de
Monealto wife of Eudes la Zouche and sister and heiress of George de
Cantilupe),
married and had issue:
3.1 John la Zouche
3.2 Ralph la Zouche, Outlawed 14 Mar 1326 over the death of Roger
Beller.
3.3 Roger la Zouche, died 1326.

3.3 Roger la Zouche, born about 1292 and died after 1326. Knighted
by Edward III. Outlawed for murder of Roger Beller on the 14
April 1326. He married firstly Matilda, and secondly Foelicia
and had issue from both:-

Issue by Matilda:-

4.1 Juliana la Zouche, married to John St Andrews, whose
family inherited one third of the Manor of Lubesthorpe.
4.2 Margaret la Zouche, married to William Bredon.
4.3 William la Zouche, alive 22 Edward III and 37 Edward III.

Issue by Foelicia:-

4.4 Johanna la Zouche, married to Marmaduke Constable of
Flamborough in Yorkshire as his first wife. He was executor
of the Will of William la Zouche Archbishop of York. They
definately had issue as Robert Constable who died in 1441
was found to be in possession of one third of the Manor
of Lubesthorpe.

Notes:
1. J. Nichols in history of Leicester covers this family.
2. There is no definate evidence of how this family relate to the
main family of Zouche in Leicestershire. It is always thought
that Archbishop Zouche belonged to the main family and he
chose Marmaduke Constable to be his executor.
3. Robert Constable who died in 1441 was the father of Sir
Robert Constable who married Agnes Wentworth, a descendant
through her mother of the main Zouche family.


see also site, http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/ZOUCHE.htm


[2] See SGM threads, <Constable Connections!> and others from prior
years. See relevant 'Lubbesthorpe' threads cited below.

[3] Leicestershire, Leicester and Rutland Record Office: Records
of the Shirley family, Earls Ferrers. of Stauton Harold,
Leicestershire. Records of the Shirley family, Earls Ferrers
of Staunton Harold, Leicestershire. Catalogue Ref. 26D53:

MAIN FERRERS ESTATES.

Leicestershire - various parishes, including Barrow-on-soar, Breedon, Cold
Newton, Lubbesthorpe, Misterton and others.

MAIN FERRERS ESTATES.

Leicestershire - various parishes, including Barrow-on-soar,
Breedon, Cold Newton, Lubbesthorpe, Misterton and others.
FILE ref. 26D53/422

[4] Patricia Junkin, <Re: Eudo la Zouche>, SGM, 4 March 2002.

[5] Ibid.

[6] Ibid.


* John P. Ravilious

Todd A. Farmerie

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Jun 15, 2003, 2:01:36 AM6/15/03
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The...@aol.com wrote:

> The lineage, as outlined in the website noted below (excluding the
> erroneous first generation) would appear to be:
>
> Eudes la Zouche = Millicent de Cantelou
> ______________I
> I
> Roger la Zouche, younger son, b. say 1277/78 (?),
> of Lubbesthorpe, Leics.; d. 1304

You shouldn't be so fast in discounting the 'erroneous' first
generation. Sheppard wrote an article on Zouche of Lubbesthorpe
that appeared in TAG 49:1-12. He reports two things that support
the alternative, and a possible explanantion for the conclusion.
Apparently Nichols reports that Millicent granted Lubbesthorpe
to Roger in 52 Henry III (1268/9). Since William de la Zouche,
eldest son and heir of Eudes and Millicent, was born in 1276,
Roger cannot be son of Eudes and Millicent. Unfortunately, the
source Nichols used for this date (repeated in VCH Leics) is not
identified, so it may be prudent to discount it. However, there
is a second record that also argues against the connection.
Sheppard cites the Cal Patent Rolls (Edw I, 1301-7, p. 27) for a
document in which on 5 Apr. 1302, Roger la Zouche of L was
granted license for a daily mass for his soul, and that of
"William la Zouche, his father, and Eudo la Zouche and Millicent
his wife, and all the faithful departed." (Sheppard's words)
This is harder to discount or spin in such a way as to make Roger
son of Eudes.

What, then, was the connection with Eudes and Millicent? In
Feudal Aids, in 1284-6, an Eleanor de Zuche was holding Bingley,
Yorks, of Millicent de Montault [wife of Eudes], her mother. She
would be too young to be daughter by Eudes, so Sheppard suggests
that Millicent married her daughter, by her first husband
(Montault), to Roger la Zouche, a kinsman of her second husband,
and granted Lubbesthorpe to him as son-in-law. (It seems unclear
to me, based on the eventual fate of Bingley and the Montault
inheritance, that Roger's children were from this marriage.)

Who, then, was William father of Roger? Sheppard offers several
lines of speculation, with the possibilities basically being that
Roger was younger son of William la Zouche of Black Torrington,
(nephew of Eudes, son of his eldest brother Alan) whose heir was
born in 1267 (impossible if Nichols' early date is right); that
Roger was an illegitimate son of either William, brother of Eudes
(this William's heir was a sole daughter, Joyce) or of William of
Great Torrington; that William, father of Roger was illegitimate
son of one of the three la Zouche brothers; or that William
belonged to some more distant branch of the la Zouche clan.

> ______________I
> I
> Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
> = 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
> ____I______________________________________ I
> I I I I
> William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
> (dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress
> = Marmaduke
> Constable
> d. 1 June 1378
> I
> I
> Robert Constable
> of Flamborough, Yorks. &
> Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
> d bef 8 Jan 1400/01
>
>
> Should anyone have further documentation as to the validity of
> this line (and the connection to La Zouche of Harringworth), I (and
> other Constable descendants) would appreciate hearing of it.

Sheppard cites a document in which Thomas Ashby had custody of a
third of the manor of Lubbesthorpe during the minority of Robert,
son of Marmaduke Constable, which manor was held by Marmaduke
(son of Robert, son of Marmaduke and Joan), Robert de St. Andrew
(heir of Juliana and Sir John de St. Andrew) and Thomas Ashby
(heir of Margaret, whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth Burdet
married Richard Ashby of Loseby). He cites for this Clay's Early
Bedfordshire Charters 12:150f.

taf

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

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Jun 15, 2003, 7:53:59 AM6/15/03
to
Todd, John, and Rosie

>
> Who, then, was William father of Roger? Sheppard offers several


I suggest that a review of Moon’s “Knights of Edward I” might provide
some direction to sources for clarifying this. He indicates that the
descent is as follows:

Eudo = Millicent,
William = Matilda
Roger

And About Roger Moon states, “Dead 28 Aug 1303 (F.R) holding Lobesthorp
Manor as ½ Kt. Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto in 52 Hen. III,
and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.)

Hope this helps.

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Todd wrote

Patricia Junkin

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Jun 15, 2003, 8:55:12 AM6/15/03
to
I have been concerned about who the Eudo was who married Milicent. There
appears to be two; one b. ca. 1210. Are we getting them confused? Or had
Eudobeen married before? I do not think that Eudo m. Milicent until 1273. I
tend to believe that Roger was a son of Eudo and Milicent.

1253 William de Cantilupe was granted manor of Lobesthorp and Barby in
Northants.

E 40/106


In 1304 Roger la Zouch deceased held the manor of Lubbesthorpe of William la

Zouch [poss his bro] by the service of the third part of a knightąs fee;
Roger la Zouch, son and heir of the foresaid Roger was then aged 11 [b.
1293]. IPM 7 Edw I
Father is Roger b. 1240-50
CP łsecond son˛


C 143/40/6
Roger la Zouch to grant a messuage, brushwood, land, and rent in
Lubbesthorpe to a chaplain of the chapel of St. Peter there, retaining land.
Leic. 30 EDWARD I.

C 143/292/5 William la Zouche, late dean of the church of St. Peter, York,


and Roger la Zouche, knight, to grant rent in North Witham and Gunby to a
chaplain in the parish church of Clipsham. Lincoln. The same to grant
messuages and land in Lubbesthorpe to certain chaplains in the chapel of St.
Mary there, the said Roger retaining land and rent in
Lubbesthorpe. Leic.

ND..could be son
Writ of Capias to the sheriff of Leicester...March 19, 19 E II By the King.
Inq. Lubesthorp. tuesday the morrow of the close of Easter. Valuation of the
goods of Roger la Zousche of Lubesthorpe who was indicted for the death of
Roger le Beler.24 pp. 226.
Writ to the sheriff of Leicester. York. 14 June 1 E II.
Inquisition Leicester. Thursday after the nativity of St. Mary. The manor of
Lubbesthorpe, which Roger la Zousche, who was outlawed of felony, held, has
been for a year and a day in the kings hands. Petition from the King and
Council from William la Zouche [French. Cf. Close Roll Cal.p. 329]24 pp. 233

Pat
----------
>From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection ?
>Date: Sun, Jun 15, 2003, 2:01 AM
>

> Who, then, was William father of Roger? Sheppard offers several

The...@aol.com

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Jun 15, 2003, 10:43:34 AM6/15/03
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Sunday, 15 June, 2003

Dear Todd, Pat, Richard, et al.,

Thanks for your answers, feedback & added questions.

First, if I might recount what we know at this point. The descent of
Lubbesthorpe, as evidenced by information posted thus far, provides the following
pedigree of this branch of La Zouche:

William la Zouche = Matilda
identified in I
gift of son, 1302 [1] I
_______________________I
I
Roger la Zouche,
had gift of 1/2 knight's fee in Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
from Millicent de Mohaut (Montealto), 1267/8 [52 Hen III]
d. on/before 28 Aug 1303 (F.R.), held 1/3 knight's fee
in Lubbesthorpe [2]


______________I
I
Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
= 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
____I______________________________________ I
I I I I
William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
(dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress

= Sir John de St. = NN Burdet = Marmaduke
Andrew [3] Constable
I I d. 1 June 1378
______________I ___I I
I I I
Robert de Richard = Elizabeth Robert Constable
St. Andrew I Burdet of Flamborough, Yorks. &
held moiety I [3] Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
of Lubbesthorpe I d bef 8 Jan 1400/01
I I
I I
Thomas Ashby Marmaduke Constable
held moiety of Lubbesthorpe of Lubbesthorpe [3]
[3]


The problem, as Todd noted, is the parentage of William la Zouche, which
had dealt with by Sheppard by not yet resolved.

I wonder if the ultimate problem lies in the identification of Eudo la
Zouche (Pat has elaborated on this problem). In particular, the chronology of
Eudo's life and issue vs. his brother (or alleged brother) Sir Alan la Zouche
is something of a problem:

1. Sir Alan la Zouche, m. before 1242 (MC 5) to Elena de Quincy, had
issue an heir Roger, whose son Alan was born 9 Oct 1267. Margery
daughter of Sir Alan and Elena de Quincy, m. Roger, Lord FitzRoger
of Clavering, and had a daughter Euphemia whose husband (Ralph de
Neville) was born in 1262 (CP).

2. Eudo la Zouche was m. bef 13 Dec 1273 to Millicent de Cantelou/
Cantilupe, widow of John de Mohaut. As Todd has pointed out, his
son and heir Sir William la Zouche of Harryngworth was born
'before 21 Dec 1276'. Elizabeth, daughter of Eudo, m. Nicholas de
Poyntz (b. 'before 1278'-CP), and her sister Eva m. Sir Maurice de
Berkeley (b. ca 1271 - CP).

This gives us an alleged younger brother, whose marriage (first ?)
occurred only after his elder brother already had several grandchildren.

It is not impossible that Eudo was the youngest of a wide range of
children, with Sir William being the oldest. It is also not impossible that we have
here another example of the conflation of two generations, with two 'Eudos'
being transformed in error into one.

Evidence concerning Eudo(s) la Zouche and his (their) early career(s)
would be most helpful here; I will look this week to see what is in CP under la
Zouche of Harryngworth (I assume nothing to this point, but..). A possible
result could be:

[WARNING: this is ENTIRELY theoretical...]

Roger la Zouche = Margaret Bisset
__________________________I . . . . . .
I I I .
Sir Alan William Alice Eudo 'the elder'
d. 1270 I
_________________I . . . . . .
I .
Eudo 'the younger' William la Zouche
d. 1279 I
= Millicent de Cantelou I
__________I________ I
I I I I
Sir William Eva Elizabeth Roger la Zouche
of Harringworth of Lubbesthorpe
d. 1351 (aged 74/5) d. 1303 (aged say 30/40)


Your thoughts and comments on the above are most welcome. Again, thanks
for all the input to date.

Good luck, good hunting (and Happy Father's Day to all !)


John *



NOTES

[1] provided by Todd Farmerie, 15 June 2003:
'Cal Patent Rolls (Edw I, 1301-7, p. 27)....


on 5 Apr. 1302, Roger la Zouche of L was granted license for
a daily mass for his soul, and that of "William la Zouche, his
father, and Eudo la Zouche and Millicent his wife, and all the

faithful departed." '

[2] provided by Richard C. Browning, from 'Knights of Edward I':
in re: Roger la Zouche,
'“Dead 28 Aug 1303 (F.R) holding Lobesthorp Manor as ½ Kt.


Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto in 52 Hen. III,

and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.) '

provided by Patricia Junkin:
'E 40/106


In 1304 Roger la Zouch deceased held the manor of Lubbesthorpe
of William la Zouch [poss his bro] by the service of the third

part of a knight¹s fee; Roger la Zouch, son and heir of the


foresaid Roger was then aged 11 [b. 1293]. IPM 7 Edw I

Father is Roger b. 1240-50

CP ³second son²

C 143/40/6
Roger la Zouch to grant a messuage, brushwood, land, and rent
in Lubbesthorpe to a chaplain of the chapel of St. Peter there,

retaining land. Leic. 30 EDWARD I.'

[3] provided by Todd Farmerie:
from TAG 49:1-12:
'Sheppard cites a document in which Thomas Ashby had custody of a

third of the manor of Lubbesthorpe during the minority of Robert,
son of Marmaduke Constable, which manor was held by Marmaduke
(son of Robert, son of Marmaduke and Joan), Robert de St. Andrew
(heir of Juliana and Sir John de St. Andrew) and Thomas Ashby
(heir of Margaret, whose daughter and heiress Elizabeth Burdet
married Richard Ashby of Loseby). He cites for this Clay's Early

Bedfordshire Charters 12:150f.'


* John P. Ravilious

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 12:25:06 PM6/15/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
>
>>Who, then, was William father of Roger? Sheppard offers several
>
> I suggest that a review of Moon’s “Knights of Edward I” might provide
> some direction to sources for clarifying this. He indicates that the
> descent is as follows:
>
> Eudo = Millicent,
> William = Matilda
> Roger
>
> And About Roger Moon states, “Dead 28 Aug 1303 (F.R) holding Lobesthorp
> Manor as ½ Kt. Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto in 52 Hen. III,
> and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.)

Moon must be confused, as the chronology is impossible. William,
son and heir of Eudo and Millicent did marry Matilda (Maud), and
did have a son Roger, yet this young Roger was the fourth son,
and the eldest son and heir, Eudo, was born 1297/8, and hence was
younger than Roger, son of Roger, thus:

Eudo = Millicent William
| |
William = Maud de Lovel Roger
b 1276 | |
| Roger
Eudo, b 1297/8 b 1291/2
William
John
Roger
Thomas
John
Edmund
Millicent
Isabel
Thomasine

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 12:50:39 PM6/15/03
to
The...@aol.com wrote:
> Sunday, 15 June, 2003
>
>
>
> Dear Todd, Pat, Richard, et al.,
>
> Thanks for your answers, feedback & added questions.
>
> First, if I might recount what we know at this point. The descent of
> Lubbesthorpe, as evidenced by information posted thus far, provides the following
> pedigree of this branch of La Zouche:
>
>
>
> William la Zouche = Matilda
> identified in I
> gift of son, 1302 [1] I

I don't think Matilda is right, as I mentioned in my other post.
This appears to intend Maud de Lovel, wife of William, son of
Eudes and Millicent, which is impossible.

Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
> = 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
> ____I______________________________________ I
> I I I I
> William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
> (dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress
> = Sir John de St. = NN Burdet = Marmaduke
> Andrew [3] Constable
> I I d. 1 June 1378
> ______________I ___I I
> I I I
> Robert de Richard = Elizabeth Robert Constable
> St. Andrew I Burdet of Flamborough, Yorks. &
> held moiety I [3] Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
> of Lubbesthorpe I d bef 8 Jan 1400/01
> I I
> I I
> Thomas Ashby Marmaduke Constable
> held moiety of Lubbesthorpe of Lubbesthorpe [3]
> [3]


Hold it. I said (quite intentionally) that Thomas Ashby and
Robert de St. Andrew were heirs, not (necessarily) sons.
Particularly with the Constables descending from a secomd
marriage, it is possible that additional generations intervene.

taf

Todd A. Farmerie

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Jun 15, 2003, 1:56:25 PM6/15/03
to
Todd A. Farmerie wrote:
> Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
>
>>
>>> Who, then, was William father of Roger? Sheppard offers several
>>
>>
>> I suggest that a review of Moon’s “Knights of Edward I” might provide
>> some direction to sources for clarifying this. He indicates that the
>> descent is as follows:
>>
>> Eudo = Millicent,
>> William = Matilda
>> Roger
>>
>> And About Roger Moon states, “Dead 28 Aug 1303 (F.R) holding Lobesthorp
>> Manor as ½ Kt. Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto in 52 Hen. III,
>> and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.)
>
>
> Moon must be confused, as the chronology is impossible. William, son
> and heir of Eudo and Millicent did marry Matilda (Maud), and did have a
> son Roger, yet this young Roger was the fourth son, and the eldest son
> and heir, Eudo, was born 1297/8, and hence was younger than Roger, son
> of Roger, thus:

I dug a little more, and find that there WAS a William married to
Matilda much earlier than the son of Eudo and Millicient. It is
less clear that this is the same man as the father of Roger.
From PROCAT:

C 47/14/1/11
Writ to sheriff of Essex: to enquire into the lands, heir etc of
William la Zouche and Matilda his wife 56 Hen III

This is not William of Black Torrington (I think I mistyped this
as Great Torrington in my post of last night) who died shortly
bef. 1287. It may well be the brother of Eudes, William la
Zouche, who died shortly before 3 Feb. 1271/2, and whose wife
Sheppard was unable to name. If so, this William left sole
daughter and heiress Joyce (mother of William la Zouche de
Mortimer), so he likewise could not be father of Roger (unless
Roger was illegitimate).

taf

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 2:08:57 PM6/15/03
to
Tod
Todd Farmerie Wrote

>
> This is not William of Black Torrington (I think I mistyped this
> as Great Torrington in my post of last night) who died shortly
> bef. 1287. It may well be the brother of Eudes, William la
> Zouche, who died shortly before 3 Feb. 1271/2, and whose wife
> Sheppard was unable to name. If so, this William left sole
> daughter and heiress Joyce (mother of William la Zouche de
> Mortimer), so he likewise could not be father of Roger (unless
> Roger was illegitimate).
>
> taf


Todd,

Do you have access to Moor's "Knights of Edward I", there are
approximately 9 pages of entries on the la Zouche family. These entries
are difficult to follow and being fairly new to this era, I don't really
know all the intricacies of the terminology Moor uses. Maybe you could
help decipher all his entries

If you do not have access I could transcribe some of these but it will
take some time before I can accomplish this.

Richard

Todd A. Farmerie

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Jun 15, 2003, 2:48:10 PM6/15/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:

> Do you have access to Moor's "Knights of Edward I", there are
> approximately 9 pages of entries on the la Zouche family. These entries
> are difficult to follow and being fairly new to this era, I don't really
> know all the intricacies of the terminology Moor uses. Maybe you could
> help decipher all his entries
>
> If you do not have access I could transcribe some of these but it will
> take some time before I can accomplish this.

I no longer have access, so when you find the time, this would
probably prove helpful.

taf

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 8:05:59 PM6/15/03
to
Todd wrote

>
> I no longer have access, so when you find the time, this would
> probably prove helpful.
>
> taf

Todd, Rosie and John,

Here is what I have condensed from Moor's "Knights of Edward I"
concerning Eudo, William, Eudo, Roger and Roger. These are the only
entries among all the Zouche entries that Moor definitely identifies as
of the same lineage. In trying to limit the excerpts in order to
respect copyright laws, I have only included statements concerning
spouses, parentage, offspring, and manors. I have tried to keep the
excerpts in order and include the references as published. I apologize
for any transcription errors that have crept in. I thank the Harleian
Society and ArchieveCDBooks for having made this book available and
affordable.

Due to the length of these entries, I have divided this into two posts,
in this, the first, find Eudo and son William, in the second William's
sons Eudo and Roger and Roger's son Roger.


Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Excerpts from Moor's "Knights of Edward I" published by The Harleian
Society and reproduced in facsimile format by ArchieveCDBooks.

Zouche, Sr Eudo la, Kt. (Eoun, Youn, Ivo, Ivonet).

Grant of 30 m. p.a. till K. provide more 27 Ap. 1261.
Livery to him Chester Berton, and Shotwill Cas. of P. Edw. to keep and
defend, 26 Dec. 1262.
Livery to him and w. Milicent, sis. coh. of Geo. de Cantilupo, manors
late of said George at Eyton, Houton in Beds., Haringworth, Beruby,
Rowell, and Bolewik, Northants., Bridgewater and Edenworth, Som.,
Calston, Bridmerston, Roele, and Calne, Wilts., Corneworthy, Dartmouth,
and Totness, Devon, Moles-Bracy, Salop, Stok St. Edwald, Dors., Hamme,
Bucks., Byngele, Yorks., Baseford, Notts., and Hereford, 1 Mar. (C.R.
and F.R.), with their share of his lands in Ireland 30 May 1274 (F.R.),
and in Craudon Manor and rents at Newbury, Spenhamland, and Wodespene
Manors, Berks., 3 June 1275
Grant to him and Milicent forfeiture in their ports so long as K.
receives custom on wool and hides exported 16 Nov. 1275 (P.R.).
Sumd to serve agst. Welsh, he acknowledges 1-1/2 Fee for Milicent, and
will serve in person with a serjeant, 1 Jy. 1277 (P.W.).
He and Millicent nominate attorneys in Ireland 14 June 1278, and have
Protection there 28 Ap. 1279 (P.R.).
He is dead 25 June 1279. She is dead 7 Jan. 1290, leaving s. h. William
la Z. (F.R.).

Zouche, Sr William la, Kt.
S. h. of the last.
Lic, for Wm. de Bosco to enfeoff Millicent de Montealto of Manors of
Thorp-Ernaud, Leic., Weston, Warw., Bromfeld and Hoghton, Northants.,
Ebrighton and Farnecote, Glou., Tubbeneye and Stanelak, Oxon., and
Esyngton, Suff., she to regrant a moiety thereof to said William for
life, remainder to her s. Wm. la Z. and w. Matilda and heirs corp., and
finally to right heirs of Matilda, 15 Feb. 1296 (P.R.).
Wm. la Z., 21-2, s. h. of said Milicent, dec., has livery of her lands,
18 Mar. 1299 (F.R.).
He holds 1 Kt. Fee at Kilpesham, Rut., late of Edm., 1 . of Cornwall, 27
Mar. (C.R.).
He is overlord of Lobesthorp Manor, Leic., 28 Aug. 1303, holds 3 Fees at
Wyminton and Toternho, Beds., with Whetton and Potecote, Northants.,
members of Wyminton, late of Thos. de Wahull, 30 Jan., and 1 Fee at
Meoles, Salop, late of Edm. de Mortimer, 25 Jy. 1304 (Inq.).
His ancestors time out of mind had return of writs in Totness Manor till
in 40 Hen. III the Sheriff withdrew the same (Inq. 2 May 1305).
Lic. on fine for him to assign to Wm. Martyn 20/- rent from Totteneys
Manor, and to charge said Manor with a barge in the millpond to carry
things across, and also with maintenance of 2 causeys and bridges in 2
roads leading from the N. gate of Totteneys to Dertington, 15 Oct. 1305
(P.R.).
Having made fine for 31 Ed. 1, has his scutage in Som., Dors., Wilts.,
Beds., Bucks., Northants., Rut., Wan., Laic, and Salop, 1 Nov. 1306
(S.R.).
Lic. for him to grant to Nicholas de Tewkesbury his rights in Clyfton,
Dertmouth, and Hardenasse and seaport there; and in the water of Derte
from Blakeston to Blakeston by Cornworthi, pertaining to Toteneys Manor,
val. £8 4s. 8d., in exchange for 16 m. rent in Hywisshe Manor, Devon,
which Nicholas holds of him, 11 Feb. 1306 (P.R).
He is overlord of Eselburwe Manor, Bucks., and Wythcale Manor, Lines.,
each as 4 Fee, 6 Aug. 1308. His w. Maud, 30, is d. of Jn. Lovel of
Tychemersh and w. Isabel, and heir in free marriage to lands at Docking,
Norf., as 1Fee, 1 Oct. 1310 (Inq.).
Wm. la Z. of Harringworth nominates Wm. fil. Thos. la. Z. his attorney
in Ireland 13 June 1311.
He holds I Fee at Brampfeld and Houghton and 1 Fee at Harringworth,
Northants., late of Jn. de Hastings, sell., 28 Feb. 1313 (Inq.).
Order to replevy to Wm. fil. Eudo la Z. his lands at Eyton taken for
default 28 Sep. 1313 (C.R.).
He holds 1 Fee at Blakolvysk, Northants., late of Alan la Z., 20 Ap.,
and 1 Fee at Rothewell, Northants., late of Gilb., E. of Gloucester, 10
Jy. 1314 (C.R).
Wm. la Z. of Harringworth is a lord of Houghton Regis, Whipsnade,
Toternho, Birchmore, and Woburn-Chapple, Beds., Creudon, Bucks,, Docking
and Southmere, Norf., Harringworth, Lit. Haughton, Brayfield, and
Barrowby, Northants., Totness, Devon, Clipsham and Pickworth, Rut.,
Cable and Calstone, Wilts., and Bridgewater, Som., 5 Mar. (P.W.), and
overlord of Coleshull Manor, Warw., 13 Mar. 1316 (Inq.).
He and his ancestors have been patrons of Stodeley Priory, Warw., since
its foundation, 4 May 1320 (C.R.), and he has suit with Jn. Engaine of
Blatherwick and w. Elena re pasture at Bulewyk, Northants., 10 Dec. 1321
(P.R.).
S. h. of Eudo la Z. by Milicent de Montealto, he is sumd as a Kt. of
Leic., Norf., Warw., and Worc., and non-resident of Beds. to Gt. Council
at Westminster, 9 May, to serve in Aquitaine 4 Aug., and to Council of
Magnates at Winchester (P.W.).
Grant to him on 1,000 m. fine the marriage of John, s. h. of Rob. de
Wylughby, 5 Ap., but John having married sine lie., on 500 m. fine the
forfeiture due 2 Jy. 1323 (F.R.).
Lic. for him to grant to Wm. fil. Wm. la Z. and heirs reversion to
Eyton, Hoghton, and Thornbury Manors, Here., 10 Oct., and for him to
hunt the fox, hare, badger, cat, and other vermin in forests of
Northants. and Rut., without damage to K's deer, 27 Dec. 1324 (P.R.).
He owes to his s. Wm. £4,000 in Wilts, and £2,000 in Devon, and to his
s. John £4,000 in Corn., 8 Dec. 1325, is to fortify and munition
Toteneys Cas. 30 Ap. (C.R.), and with his household has lie. to bear
arms for defence 25 Mar. 1326.
Lic. for him to settle Totteneys Cas. and Cornworthi Manor, Devon,
Caleston Cas. and Cable Hundred, Wilts., Moelbraci Manor, Salop,
Heygrave Manor and a of Briggewater Manor, Som., on himself for life,
remainders in fee tail successively to his sons Wm., Jn., Rog., Thos.,
Jn., and Edm., and his daus. Millicent, w. of Wm. Dayncourt, Isabel, and
Thomasina, and in fee simple to Hugh de Poynz, Kt., 26 Mar.
His s. Ivo is to be arrested for death of Rog. Beler I Mar. 1326 (P.R.).

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

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Jun 15, 2003, 8:09:40 PM6/15/03
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Second Posting (Continuation of la Zouche descent)

Excerpts from Moor's "Knights of Edward I" published by The Harleian
Society and reproduced in facsimile format by ArchieveCDBooks.

ZOUCHE, sr Eudo la, Kt. (Ivo).
S. of Wm. fil. Eoun la Z.,
Joan, w. of Ivo la Z., is d. h. of Wm. Inge and w. Margery, and has
livery of lands held by said Wm. in right of said Margery, dec., 12 Sep.
1322 (F.R.).
is dead 12 June 1326 (F.R.),
holding 1/2 a windmill at Stanstede, Kent, Tyledehall Manor at
Lachyndon, Ess., Cleyore Manor, Oxon., 2/3 of mess. at Toternho by
Dunstaple and mess, at Lit. Gravenhurst, Beds., and moiety of
StokeMaundevile Manor by Aylesbury, Bucks., as 1/2 Fee, all inheritance
of his w. Joan. He was indicted of death of Rog. de Belers, went over
seas sine lic., died in Paris last April, and was buried in church of
the Augustine Friars there, his lands being taken to K, for his flight,
15 Jy. 1326 (Inq.).

Zouche, Sr Roger la, Kt.
Going over seas with K. he nominates attorneys 28 Ap. 1286 (P.R.).
One owes Ł20 to Rog. Is Z. of Lubbisthorp 15 May 1290 (C.R.).
Comn re trespassing in his fishery at Lobesthorp, Leic., 15 Ap. 1293
(P.R.).
He is overlord at Braundeston, Leic., 5 May 1299 (Inq.).
Livery to him land at Braunteston, Suff., saving dower to Margaret, wit
of Hugh de Braunteston, 16 Aug. 1299 (C.R.).
Lic. for him to alienate mess., 34 acres, 26/8 rent, and 2 cartloads of
brushwood p.a. from his wood at Lubesthorp to a chaplain celebrating
daily in St. Peter's chapel for souls of himself, his f. Wm. la Z., and
Eudo la Z. and w. Millicent, 6 Ap. 1302 (P.W.).
Dead 28 Aug. 1303 (F.R.),

holding Lobesthorp Manor as ; Kt. Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto

in 52 Hen. III, and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.).

ZOUCHE, Sr Roger la, Kt.

S. h. of the last.

Pardon as adherent of Thos., E. of Lancaster, 22 Oct. 1318 (P.R.).
He and his bro. Ralph, accused of entering Manors of Lughteburgh,
Beaumaner, Fretheby, Ernesby, Huclescote, and Querndon, Leic., lately in
K's hands, and doing trespass therein, 28 May,
have Protection, going to Scotland for K. with Eudo la Z., 5 Aug. 1322
(P.R.).
Sumd as a Kt. of Leic. to Gt. Council at Westminster 9 May. Kt. of
Shire, Leic., 20 Oct. 1324 (P.W.).
Comr of Array, to choose 30 hobelers and 60 archers in Warw. and Leic.
22 Dec. 1324 (P.R.),
to inspect levies there 30 Sep., but another vice him sick and incapable
25 Nov. 1325 (P.W.).
Valuation of his goods, Mar. 1326 (Inq.).
Order to take lands and goods of Sr Rog. la Z., Rt., lord of
Lubbesthorp, to K., as he assented to death of Rog. Beler and fled the
country 24 Mar. (F.R.).
His bro. Ralph, indicted for same offence, and having escaped from
England, Donald de Mar is to follow and arrest him, 1 Mar. 1326 (P.R.).
Jn. fil. Rog. la Z. owes Ł18 13s. 4d. to Wm. la Z., lord of Eyton, 27
Ap. 1309 (C.R.).

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 8:53:56 PM6/15/03
to
All,
I have the William of Black Torrington as the son of Alan abnd Elena and
thus brother to Eudo [see possibility below]. I believe this William's son
to be Almeric/Emery. I note Totneys, but not Black Torrington, Devon among
the properties of the Cantilupes.

In the 1313: IPM of Richard de Waumford alias de Wamforde.
Devon: Inq. 27 Nov. 6 E II [1313]
Whiteleye. The manor....held of Emery de la S[ouch] in socage (Feudal tenure
of land by a tenant in return for agricultural or other nonmilitary services
or for payment of rent in money.) by service of 10s. yearly rent.
Blaketor. the hundred, held of the Emery la Souche by knights service
rendering 13s.4d. yearly p.211

Are not Black Torrington and Blaketor the same?

Just a few comments about Eudo.

E 40/106
Confirmation by William de Cantilupe to the chapel in his court of Eyton, of
the grant made to it by his father, William de Cantilupe, of a messuage and
12 acres of land in Eyton, 6 measures of wheat yearly, and 22 solidates
ofannual rent; with a further grant of 50s. yearly, to support a second
chaplain, and of a croft to keep a lamp burning in the chapel; with
stipulations as to the appointment and support of the two chaplains.
Witnesses:- Sir John son of Geoffrey, William de Warnevill, and others
(named). Endorsed: "Eytona com. Bedf. nunc Eton. It appears that Cantilupe
had Eyton and it was settled on Millecent, married to Ive Zouche, Claus. 2
E. I. dorso m. 12. Scr. P. L. (Le Neve)." Bedf. When Sir William de Kalna
alias de Cantilupo in a writ to the sheriff of Wilts. 18 Nov 39 Hen. III
[1255] and all rents of the 19 hides were assigned by Sir William Cantilupo
to John de Montealto, with his daughter, and the rents of three mills were
assigned for life to Lady Agnes de Verdon."
This would indicate to me that Millicent had married John de Montealto by
1255, hence probably b. c. 1240.

I think, the date of the marriage of Eudo to Millicent c. a. 1273 is based
on the IPM of her brother George, however, it could have been much earlier.
IN the IPM 1273 of George de Cantilupo, his heirs are: Milsanda the wife of
Eudo la Zuche [Milsanda the wife of Eudo la Zuche, of full age, and John son
of Henry and Joan de Hastings who is under age in the king’s wardship, are
his heirs] and Joan de Hastings, w/o Henry Hastings and her son John
[underage]...he held Totnes in Devon by reason of pourparty of the lands &c
which were of William de Brewosa...Haringworth in Northants. Berewyk in
Somerset....his birth was 1251 and he was born on the death of his
grandfather William.
In 1299, Milicent de Monte Alto names William la Soche, her son, aged 21 on
18 Dec, her next heir which is problematic in assuming that she had an
earlier male heir. The IPM also speaks of "all the rents of 19 hides were
assigned to Sir William de Cantilupo to John de Montealto, with his
daughter, and the rents of three mills were assigned for life to Lady Agnes
de Verdun."

In an earlier discussion of this, Chris Phillips noted that Alan had a
brother Eudo active in 1262, we
must assume that he was born before 1238 and most probably around 1200-1210.
If we assume that the Eudo here mentioned married Milicent, then he was
63-73 years old and she some 30 years plus.

The de Bosco provision was also discussed and I think it imporant to ask why
Milicent was


" to regrant a moiety thereof to said William for life, remainder to her s.

William la Zouche and wife
Matilda and heirs corp and finally to right heirs of Matilda. 12 Feb.
1296." It is clear that the Zouche of Haryngsworth line came by the
extensive holdings through the marriage to Milicent. If Eudo held
Lobbesthorpe in right of his wife, then it is possible that Roger, even if
by another wife could have been held the property of his brother, William.

If we are to explain this: " [1] provided by Todd Farmerie, 15 June 2003


'Cal Patent Rolls (Edw I, 1301-7, p. 27).... on 5 Apr. 1302, Roger la Zouche
of L was granted license for a daily mass for his soul, and that of
"William la Zouche, his father, and Eudo la Zouche and Millicent his wife,

and all the faithful departed." then we must look for Eudo's brother,
William perhaps to be the father....or could the older Eudo have had a son,
William:
25 December 1262 [Canterbury]To Thomas de Orreby, justice of Chester.
Whereas the whole march of Wales is disturbed by L. son of Griffin and his
accomplices ... the king is sending Alan la Zuche, justice of the forest on
this side Trent, to the said march for the preservation of the peace and the
defence of those parts, he commands the justice to deliver the castles of
Edward, the king's son, to wit, Chester, Beston and Shotwik, to Eudo la
Zuche, brother of the said Alan, without delay to keep in the name of the
said Alan until his arrival
[Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 Henry III - Part 1, m.19]

Pat
----------
From: The...@aol.com


To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?

Date: Sun, Jun 15, 2003, 10:43 AM


Sunday, 15 June, 2003

Dear Todd, Pat, Richard, et al.,

Thanks for your answers, feedback & added questions.

First, if I might recount what we know at this point. The descent of
Lubbesthorpe, as evidenced by information posted thus far, provides the
following
pedigree of this branch of La Zouche:

William la Zouche = Matilda
identified in I
gift of son, 1302 [1] I

_______________________I
I
Roger la Zouche,
had gift of 1/2 knight's fee in Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
from Millicent de Mohaut (Montealto), 1267/8 [52 Hen III]
d. on/before 28 Aug 1303 (F.R.), held 1/3 knight's fee
in Lubbesthorpe [2]
______________I
I

Roger la Zouche, b. say 1293; d. aft 1349/50
= 1) Matilda = 2) Felicia
____I______________________________________ I
I I I I
William Juliana Margaret Joan/Johanna
(dsp) coheiress coheiress coheiress
= Sir John de St. = NN Burdet = Marmaduke
Andrew [3] Constable
I I d. 1 June 1378
______________I ___I I
I I I
Robert de Richard = Elizabeth Robert Constable
St. Andrew I Burdet of Flamborough, Yorks. &
held moiety I [3] Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics.
of Lubbesthorpe I d bef 8 Jan 1400/01
I I
I I
Thomas Ashby Marmaduke Constable
held moiety of Lubbesthorpe of Lubbesthorpe [3]
[3]


John *

NOTES

'¢X©¨Dead 28 Aug 1303 (F.R) holding Lobesthorp Manor as ®^ Kt.


Fee, the gift of Milicent de Montealto in 52 Hen. III,

and leaving s. h. Roger, 11 (Inq.) '

provided by Patricia Junkin:
'E 40/106
In 1304 Roger la Zouch deceased held the manor of Lubbesthorpe
of William la Zouch [poss his bro] by the service of the third

part of a knight˝^s fee; Roger la Zouch, son and heir of the

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 15, 2003, 9:53:19 PM6/15/03
to
Patricia Junkin wrote:

> I have the William of Black Torrington as the son of Alan abnd Elena and
> thus brother to Eudo [see possibility below].

Sheppard, citing CP, gives the following account:

Roger la Zouche, b. say 1170-1179, m Margaret
1 a. Alan
2 b. William
3 c. Eudo
d. Lora m Gilbert de Stanford
e. Alive m William de Harcourt

1. Alan la Zouche, son and heir, had seisin 1238, m. Helen de Quincy
a. Roger, son and heir, b. 1240-2 m. Ela Longespee,
having Alan
b. William, 2nd son, of Black Torrington, having heir Emery
c. Alan of Fulbourn, Cambs
d. Oliver of Southoe and Eynesbury, Hunts
e. Henry, parson of East Ham

2. William la Zouche, probably second son
a. Joyce, m. Robert de Mortimer

3. Eudo, granted 1253 the marriage of Agatha, daugh William Earl
of Derby, but transfered her to Hugh de Mortemer of Chelmarsh.
He married Milicent de Cantelou bef. Dec. 1273, widow of John de
Montault, who she married bef. 1254.
a. William,
etc.

This would make William of Torrington the nephew of Eudes. I
see, though, that you are predicating things on there being two
Eudes, uncle and nephew. I don't know how well this can be
supported.

Considering that Milicent's first marriage was before 1254, it
would not be unreasonable to view her second husband as of
similar age. That he did not marry the heiress of the Earl of
Derby (who would have been of great value) suggests to me that he
was already encumbered in 1252, which fits (assuming this was the
same Eudes).


> In an earlier discussion of this, Chris Phillips noted that Alan had a
> brother Eudo active in 1262, we
> must assume that he was born before 1238 and most probably around 1200-1210.
> If we assume that the Eudo here mentioned married Milicent, then he was
> 63-73 years old and she some 30 years plus.

This pushes the dates to the extreme in one direction, but how
about the other way. If Alan was just coming of age when he
inherited in 1238, then his birth would be say 1215 (or 1217 if
Sheppard means that he had seisen on reaching majority in 1238,
which is unclear - his son and heir, Roger, was born 1240-1242,
so this may not be too far off), then a younger brother could be
born as late as 1230, which is not out of line with him being
married in 1252. That would put his birth in the same range as
Milicent's.

> The de Bosco provision was also discussed and I think it imporant to ask why
> Milicent was
> " to regrant a moiety thereof to said William for life, remainder to her s.
> William la Zouche and wife
> Matilda and heirs corp and finally to right heirs of Matilda. 12 Feb.
> 1296." It is clear that the Zouche of Haryngsworth line came by the
> extensive holdings through the marriage to Milicent. If Eudo held
> Lobbesthorpe in right of his wife, then it is possible that Roger, even if
> by another wife could have been held the property of his brother, William.

I don't think making Roger brother of William is viable, given
the following:

> If we are to explain this: " [1] provided by Todd Farmerie, 15 June 2003
> 'Cal Patent Rolls (Edw I, 1301-7, p. 27).... on 5 Apr. 1302, Roger la Zouche
> of L was granted license for a daily mass for his soul, and that of
> "William la Zouche, his father, and Eudo la Zouche and Millicent his wife,
> and all the faithful departed." then we must look for Eudo's brother,
> William perhaps to be the father....or could the older Eudo have had a son,

But was there an 'older Eudes'? While possible, the only reason
for splitting Eudes is his 'late' marriage to Milicent, yet if
he, like she, was married previously, then there is no reason to
hypothesize more than one Eudes. What is the first documentation
of Eudes? How much older need he have been?

I would also recommend care in trying to force Roger into the
immediate family of Eudes. If Sheppard is right about him
marrying a daughter of Milicent, then that explains the favor
shown, and the grant of Lubbesthorpe, and he could go anywhere in
the broader pedigree. I don't think it inherently more likely
that Milicent would grant the property (with or without a
marriage) to her step-son vs. a nephew or more distant (but still
reasonably close) kinsman.

taf

Douglas Richardson

unread,
Jun 16, 2003, 12:34:40 AM6/16/03
to
Dear John ~

A pedigree of the Zouche family of Lubbesthorpe has appeared in recent
time published by the Harleian Society. I believe it was published in
their new series with either the Visitations of Derbyshire or of
Nottinghamshire. As I recall, the pedigree sets out the correct
relationship between Roger la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe and Eudes la
Zouche, who married Milicent de Cantelowe. It shows Roger with a
father, William, which information is confirmed by contemporary
records of Roger's time.

I don't have the time to pull the pedigree in question right now for
you. However, I'm sure an eager beaver on the newsgroup can find the
information and post it for you. Good luck in your search!

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royala...@msn.com

The...@aol.com

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Jun 16, 2003, 12:49:38 AM6/16/03
to
Sunday, 15 June, 2003


Dear Todd, Pat, Richard, et al.,

A possible line of investigation I noted in Richard's posts from
'Knights of Edward I'. For Sir Roger la Zouche of Lubbesworth (d. 1303), there is
the note,

' He is overlord at Braundeston, Leic., 5 May 1299 (Inq.).

Livery to him land at Braunteston, Suff., saving dower to Margaret,

wit [wife] of Hugh de Braunteston, 16 Aug. 1299 (C.R.).'

Which 'Braundeston' [Brandeston ?] was held by Sir Roger, and how this
came to be held by him, may help in resolving this relationship. There seems
to be a question in the 'Knights' text cited above, whether this was Branston,
co. Leics. or Brandeston, Suffolk....

There is a reference provided previously by Douglas Richardson (see
below [1]), which mentions that Oliver la Zouche, younger son of Alan la Zouche
and Ellen de Quincy, d. between 1283 and 1328, who held lands in Braunston, co.
Rutland (?).

Anyone have any additional information re: this manor (these manors) ?

Cheers,

John

NOTES

[1] Douglas Richardson, <Re: Robert son of Ivo and Joan Inge La Zouche?>,
SGM, 21 Sept 2000:

Dear Pat:

I assume the first Oliver la Zouche in your "supposition" below appears
to be the same individual as Oliver la Zouche, born say 1250 (adult by
1283), who was a younger son of Alan la Zouche, of North Molton, Devon,
by his wife, Ellen de Quincy. Oliver held the manors of South Charford
and La Hyde, co. Hants, Southoe, co. Huntingdon, Chinnor, co. Oxford,
Chadstone in Castle Ashby and Grendon, co. Northampton, and Braunston
and Stoke Dry, co. Rutland. Oliver married first, _____, by whom he
had an unnamed daughter. He married second Joan de Cobham, widow of
Michael de Columbers (died 1284), by whom he had a son, John. He was
dead before 1328, when his son, John, possessed his lands. To my
knowledge, John la Zouche, has no living descendants. Consequently, I
suspect you will need to find another solution for your Zouche
pedigree.

When you have a moment, perhaps you could explain the sources you used
to create your supposition below.

All for now. Best always, Douglas Richardson


Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 16, 2003, 8:13:16 AM6/16/03
to
All,
I have done a bit or work on Oliver, mindful of Douglas' assumption that
there were no further of his line after 1385.

According to Douglas: łBerry's Hampshire Pedigrees sets forth a credible
pedigree in which he shows that an early Popham ancestor, Sir John Popham
(living 1316) was married to the "daughter and heir of Oliver Souch." The
Oliver la Zouche intended here can only be Sir Oliver la Zouche, of South
Charford, Hampshire, born say 1250, dead before 1328. That Sir Oliver died
leaving male issue, but it appears on the death of his great-grandson, Sir
John la Zouche, which took place about 1385/94, that the Zouche estates
passed by some prior agreement to a younger Sir John Popham, younger
brother of Henry Popham, of Popham, Hampshire."

I had found in the 1455 IPM of William Lovell reference to an Oliver la
Zouche at Chynnore and thus tried to establish a timeline for that property.

Oliver la Zouche b. ca. 1250 married 1) ? and 2) Joan de Cobham.

The property in this line seems to be: South Charford, Hants., Dodyngton,
South Hoo manor as 1/3 fee, late of Robert de Tatshale (Hunt.), messuage
and land Sutho-Wuncestre as 1 fee, Chinnor, (Oxon), late of Alan la Zouche
( Apr. IPM), Chadstone, Castle Ashby, Grendon (NHants), Braunston, Stoke Or,
Rutland. He is lord of S. Hoo, Wincestre, Eynesbury, Caldecote, Hardwick and
Berkford, (Hunts.) Chinnor, Sydenham, Ocle and Tythorp. He died 5 Mar 1316.


1284 granted lands in Southoe, Eynesbury and elsewhere in Hunts. by his
mother. Held manor of Sooth Charford, La Hyde, (Hants); Southoe (Hunt.);
Chinnor (Oxon.); Chadstone, Castle Ashby; Grendon (Nhants.), Braunston,
Stoke Or, Rutland
1296 held 1/3 pte. service for Lokeris and most of her Scottish lands.

Rosie Bevan points out: "Ashby David handy from VCH
Northamptonshire, v 3 , p. 232. It doesn't answer your questions but
provides a bit of background information.
"David son of William (Ashby) appears to have been slain at Evesham in 1265
and in the following year the king made a grant to Isabel his widow, and her
children, from David's lands at Ashby, Grendon and Chadstone, extended at
L89 11s 9d a year, which had been given to Imbert Guy. David had apparently
mortgaged this holding to Moses the Jew of London whose son Elias in 1267
confirmed to Alan la Zouche a yearly fee of L124 and a debt of L100 in which
David de Ashby had been bound. This resulted in an inquisition two years
later between Isabel, daughter of Stephen, son and heir of David de Ashby,
and Alan la Zouche, concerning David's estate at the time of the war and the
battle of Evesham. That the property was confirmed to Alan is clear from the
facts that in 1276 his widow Ellen had view of frankpledge in Ashby and in
1284 her son Oliver held of John de Hastings the fee in Ashby and Grendon.
Before 1306 Oliver la Zouche had enfeoffed Walter de Langton, Bishop of
Coventry and Lichfield, treasurer and chief minister of Edward I, who in
that year received licence to crenellate the house he was then building at
Ashby David."

A Proposition That Oliver la Zouche Was Alive in 1455
Gen 1.
Oliver la Zouche b. ca. 1250 m. 1) ? 2) Joan de Cobham
Gen 2.
Dau. b. ca. 1270-80, John b. 1270-80, Others
Gen. 3
Children b. 1300-1320
Gen 4.
Children born1340-1360
The John la Zouche of Chinnor who died 1394 could have been of either Gen 3
or 4


Lands in Southoe and Chynnore were held by the da Quincys.
Alan la Zouche who died 1269/70 married Elena daughter of Roger de
Quincy. Alan la Zouche held lands in Cheshire and N Wales, was a granted
charter for a market for Esseby/ Ashby le Zouche, Leic. and fairs at
Swaveseye in Cambridgeshire.
His children were Roger, Oliver, Margery, possibly Joan who m. Philip
de la Beche b. 1250 d. 1329, Henry and Eudo.
In 1230 [DL 25/2336] John de Lascy [Lacy], Constable of Chester, and
Margaret his wife to Roger de Quency: Conveyance by final concord of the
inheritance of Saer de Quency, late Earl of Winchester (lands in
Kettlestone, Chinnor, Southoe, Amesbury, Buckby, Grantchester, Hardwick and
Bradenham], and of the inheritance of Margaret de Quency, Countess of
Winchester (a moiety of the Honor of Leicester), etc. 14 Hen. III

Between 1264 and 1289 [E 40/5895] there is a release by Richard le Swein of
Swithelund, to Margaret de Ferr[ariis], countess of Derby, Ellen la Zuche,
Alexander Comyn, earl of Bouchan, and Elizabeth his wife, the heirs of Roger
de Quency, late earl of Winchester, of all his right in alnd in Schepeheved
(Sheepshead) formerly held by Elias Swein, his brother, and in a toft and
croft and other land there, and in land in Bradegate which was the said
Elias's.
In 1277--[C 47/22/9/8] a letter of the Earl of Buchan to King Edward
stating that at the latter's request he has suspended his suit against Ellen
La Zuche in the Scottish courts. In1282--[C 143/6/3] Ellen la Zuche to grant
rent in Eynesbury to a chaplain in the church of Swavesey. Hunt.10 EDWARD I.
In1286--[C 146/3456] Grant by Hugh son of Hugh the goldsmith of Chynnore,
to Peter de la Pole of Sydenham, and Emma his wife, of land in Chynnore
lying in 'le Sterte': [Oxford.] Michaelmas, 14 Edward I. Katherine de la
Pole, wife of Sir Myles Stapleton, married secondly Sir Richard Harcourt of
Stanton Harcourt in Oxon.
When Helen (Elena) la Zousche died in 1296, Inq. 20 Aug Edward I taken at
Berwyk, she names Alan la Suches, aged 24 her next heir and her inquisition
states that Olives la Suches does a third part of the service of one knight
for the aforesaid lands (Scotland) and the land of Lokeris. Land in Berwick
upon Tweed, Edinburgh, Nudreff, Caldor Cler, Schepeshevede in Leicester held
of William de Ferariis, and Hausho and Brackele in Nhants.
Agnes Muscegrosą mother, Margaret, wife of William de Ferrers, Earl of
Derby, was a sister of the Elene, daughter of Roger de Qunicy. The third
sister was Elizabeth/Isabel, wife of Alexander, Earl of Buchan (Complete
Peerage vol.12, pt 2, p.753). In a charter given when Agnes was a widow, as
lady of Chinnor, Oxfordshire, concerning a rent in Sydenham [in Chinnor],
Roger de Quincy is called her "grandfather."
1279 (7 Edward I), a jury finds that Robert de Muscegros had 2/3 of the
manor of Chinnor in free marriage with Agnes, the daughter of Robert of
Derby, Earl Ferrers. This would make Agnes the granddaughter of William,
Earl of Derby and Margaret de Quency.
If Agnes held 2/3, then the 1/3 part must have been inherited by Oliver la
Zuche and his heirs.
In 1313--[C 143/90/13] Robert de Sapy and Aline his wife to retain
two-thirds of the manor of Chinnor, acquired from Agnes de Mussegros.
Oxford. 6 EDWARD II. The other 1/3 was retained most probably by the heirs
of Oliver la Zouche.

In 1348--[E 199/3/16] Cambridgeshire & Huntingdonshire: Wrt, inquisition and
particulars of account of land at "Russhe" in vill of Southoe Winchester :
Peter de Medeburne, tenant of Robert de Ferrars and John la Zouche (Almost
blind). 21-6 Edw. III. This man could very well be the John, son of Oliver
la Zouche b. ca. 1270-70. Did he have children other than John?

1389-[E 135/24/44 Decree by the official of the court of Canterbury in an
appeal between John Souche, knight, and Breamore priory touching tithes.
By 1394-- Release by John Popham kt. and Matilda, his wife, to John
Chynnore and Robert Waryner, executors of Will of John South [Sowche] kt.,
of all actions. Dated at Brommore [Hants.]. 23 January 1394. This is perhaps
the son of the John Zouche who in 1348 lost his sight.


In the Inquisition Post Mortem for William Lovell who died 13 June 1455,
and his will was dated 18 Mar to 5 June 1455, proved 1 Sep 1455. William
Lovell held łChynnore 3tia pars 1 feodą per Oliver de la Zouche." He also
held łBlacolvesle 1 feod per William la Zouche˛ and the manor of Bermondsey
in Surrey.

When Alan la Zouche died in 1314 he names a John, "Stupellavyntone. A moiety
of a messuage, 1 carucate land and 71s rent were sometime given by the said
Alan to John la Zouch for life." This Alan also leaves properties including
Treve. [The manor with the advowson of the chapel 12l. yearly in rent in
Nutburne, and the advowson of the church in Childyngton, held for life of
the gift and grant of William Poor of Swaveseye, chaplain bu fine levied in
the kings court, with remainders] to William la Zouche of Richardąs Castle
[Mortimer] and the heirs of his body."

I think there are certainly possibilities for the line of Oliver producing
children heretofore unaccounted.

Pat
----------


>From: The...@aol.com
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?

The...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 7:00:02 AM6/17/03
to
Tuesday, 17 June, 2003


Dear Pat, Richard, Todd, Douglas, et al.,

Thanks to each of you for the additional research and insight of the last
few days.

Todd, your note re: the various heirs (errors ?) of Lubbesthorpe is
spot-on; given that Ashby was acting as guardian of the son of Marmaduke Constable
(d. before 5 Aug 1404), and not of Marmaduke, certainly leaves open the
possibility of an intervening generation.

Pat, your added contributions should be helpful in a couple of ways; the
possibility of additional La Zouche relations of Oliver La Zouche needs
further attention.

Richard, your cites from 'Knights of Edward I' are extremely valuable.
It may be that the information provided as to Braundeston/Branteston may lead
to some additional connections with the La Zouche of Lubbesworth.

And Douglas, as always, thanks for the suggestion as to the Visitation of
Derbys. (or Notts.) record concerning the La Zouche family(ies). If this is
accessible at the LOC, with luck I may be able to access this with one more
fossick.

I noted in the extract from 'Knights of Edward I' (thanks Richard), the
following concerning the second Sir Roger La Zouche of Lubbesworth:

' Order to take lands and goods of Sr Rog. la Z., Rt., lord


of Lubbesthorp, to K., as he assented to death of Rog. Beler
and fled the country 24 Mar. (F.R.).
His bro. Ralph, indicted for same offence, and having
escaped from England, Donald de Mar is to follow and arrest

him, 1 Mar. 1326 (P.R.). '

This is the same offence for which Eudo/Eon La Zouche, son and heir of
Sir William (d. 1351), fled England and subsequently dvp in Paris, later in 1326
(see Richard's 1st post from 'Knights', on 15 June 2003).

The following from our old friend Burke provides some further information
and documentation concerning this 'incident' :

' Lord [Roger] Beler held the manor of Criche by Barony,
viz. of the king in capite, as of his crown, by the service
of one knight's fee, and so d. seised of it in his own
demesne as of fee, 19 Edward II.; he also d. seised on Bunny
Park, in Nottinghamshire, and other considerable possessions.
The tragical rencontre which occasioned his death is
recorded as follows: -
Eustace de Folville, of Ashby Folville, his two brothers,
and Eudo de la Zouch, of Haryngworth, having been threatened
by Lord Beler, one of the justices itinerant, and very old,
they way-laid and barbarously murdered the judge, in a
valley near Reresby. Dodsworth has this remark on the
occurrence:
" Anno MCCCXXVI., quarto Kal. Februarii occisus est
Dominus Rogerus Beler in comitatu Leycestrie. Iste
Rogerus fundavit cantariam seculariam sacerdotum
apud Kirkeby Beler, in comitatu Leycestrie; quam
post multos annos uxor ejusdem Rogeri, cum concesu
Rogeri filii eorum, transtulit in usos canonicorum
regularium, instituens ibidem primum priorem loci
de Abbathia de Olvestone. Hic Rogerus occisus est
a quodam Eustachio de Folville, ac fratribus suis,
quibus prius minas ingesserat et injurias; interfectus
erat a tribus fratribus in quadam valle juxta
Reresby. Hic oppressor fuit ecclesiarum et aliorum
vicinorum religiosorum, pro cupiditate possessionum,
quas cupierit ad denationem cantaria sua."

The Folvilles being indicated for the murder, their lands
at Reresby were seised by the king, and were never restored
to them.
" Anno 1326, Eudo de la Zouch indictatus pro morte
cujus dem Rogeri de Beler, ob metum indictamenti
transfretavit sine licentia Regis; et ea occasione
terra ejus capte sunt in manum d'ni Regis, et idem
Eudo obiit Parisiia, eodem anno." ' [1]

I will continue searching for additional details re: the career of Eudo
la Zouche (d. 1279), and for the connection between him and William, father of
Roger la Z. of Lubbesworth.

In the meantime, good luck, and good hunting to you all.

John *


NOTES

[1] History of the Commoners of Great Britain and Ireland,
IV:231 (Whatton of Leicestershire).


* John P. Ravilious

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 6:32:24 PM6/17/03
to
> From: The...@aol.com [mailto:The...@aol.com]
John wrote

<SniP

> I noted in the extract from 'Knights of Edward I' (thanks
Richard),
> the
> following concerning the second Sir Roger La Zouche of Lubbesworth:
>
> ' Order to take lands and goods of Sr Rog. la Z., Rt., lord
> of Lubbesthorp, to K., as he assented to death of Rog. Beler
> and fled the country 24 Mar. (F.R.).
> His bro. Ralph, indicted for same offence, and having
> escaped from England, Donald de Mar is to follow and arrest
> him, 1 Mar. 1326 (P.R.). '
>
> This is the same offence for which Eudo/Eon La Zouche, son and
heir of
> Sir William (d. 1351), fled England and subsequently dvp in Paris,
later
> in 1326
> (see Richard's 1st post from 'Knights', on 15 June 2003).
>
> The following from our old friend Burke provides some further
> information
> and documentation concerning this 'incident' :
>

<Snip>

> Eustace de Folville, of Ashby Folville, his two brothers,
> and Eudo de la Zouch, of Haryngworth, having been threatened
> by Lord Beler, one of the justices itinerant, and very old,
> they way-laid and barbarously murdered the judge, in a
> valley near Reresby. Dodsworth has this remark on the
> occurrence:

<Snip>


> John


So from this we have three Folvilles, Eustace and his unnamed brothers,
and three la Zouches, Eudo, and Nephews Ralph and Roger, both apparently
sons of Eudo's brother Roger as involved in the murder of Beler.

Is this a correct interpretation of all this?

The...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 7:29:35 PM6/17/03
to
Tuesday, 17 June, 2003


Dear Richard,

The Folville scenario seems clear; however, re: the La Zouche 'family',
we have two families. The known lineage is as follows:


Eudo la Zouche William la Zouche
of Harringworth, Northants. I
d. 1279 = Millicent de Cantelou I
I I
I I
William la Zouche Roger la Zouche
of Harringworth, Northants. = Maud of Lubbesworth, Leics.
d. 1351 (aged ca. 75) I d. 1303
______________I I
I ___________I____________
I I I
EUDO (aka Eon) LA ZOUCHE ROGER RALPH
d. Paris 1326 d. after 1349


Roger and Ralph (brothers) may well have been 2nd cousins at the closest
to Eudo (son and heir of William of Harringworth), if my 'Two Eudo' theory is
correct; they are otherwise more distantly related (3rd or more cousins).
They were definitely not his nephews.....

Cheers,

John *


* John P. Ravilious

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 8:52:32 PM6/17/03
to
John,

Please re-read my second post of the 15th, also the last entry for
William in the first posting. I don't know if Moor is correct but he
specifically states that Eudo (Ivo, John) S. of Wm. fil. Eoun la Z., is
indicted for this murder. In his notices, Wm, s. h. of Eudo La Zouche,
was the father of Eudo d. April 1326 in Paris, and Roger among others.
This Roger, is noted as the Grandson of Milicent, and the father of
Roger mentioned as involved in the murder along with his brother Ralph.
Moor does not list a Ralph separately. I will try to set out all the la
Zouches listed in this book, but it may take some time.

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

> -----Original Message-----
> From: The...@aol.com [mailto:The...@aol.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 18:30
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable
> Connection ?
>

The...@aol.com

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 10:39:51 PM6/17/03
to
Tuesday, 17 June, 2003


Dear Richard,

I re-read your posts of the other day, per your suggestion. Yes indeed,
William la Zouche of Harringworth (d. 1351) had a younger son Roger (and
several others: William, John, Thomas & c.).

The reason(s) why this William cannot be the father of the first Roger
la Zouche of Lubbesthorpe:

1. William la Zouche (son of Eudo, d. 1279) was born
before 21 Dec 1276 (CP) - certainly, no later than
1279. He might have been born somewhat earlier:
his parents Eudo la Zouche 'the elder' and Millicent
de Cantelou were married 'before 13 Dec 1273' (AR7).

2. Roger la Zouche 'the elder' of Lubbesthorpe,
identified as son of a William la Zouche, had to
have been born before 1278 (certainly aged 14 or
more in 1292), because

3. Roger la Zouche 'the younger' of Lubbesthorpe,
his son, was born say 1292 or slightly before
(aged 11 at his father's IPM, 28 Aug 1303).

The chronology of these generations does not, therefore, allow for Roger
la Z. of Lubbesthorpe (the elder) to be son of William la Z. of Harringworth,
or thereby, to be a younger brother of Eudo la Z. the indicted.

We are certainly still short of information to tie these two lines
together: my theory at this point still is, that Eudo la Zouche 'the elder' (d.
1279) may well be two individuals, which would permit (not yet prove) the
following:

Eudo the elder (conjectured)
________________I . . . . . . .
I I


Eudo the younger William la Zouche

d. 1279 I


I I
William la Zouche Roger la Zouche

b. say 1276, d. 1351 of Lubbesthorpe, d. 1303
I b. before 1278
I __________I_______
I I I
Eudo / Eon Roger la Zouche Ralph
b. ca. 1297 b. ca. 1292


Hence, my current search for details on the earlier Eudo(s) la Zouche.

Cheers,

John

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 17, 2003, 10:54:29 PM6/17/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
>
> Please re-read my second post of the 15th, also the last entry for
> William in the first posting. I don't know if Moor is correct but he
> specifically states that Eudo (Ivo, John) S. of Wm. fil. Eoun la Z., is
> indicted for this murder. In his notices, Wm, s. h. of Eudo La Zouche,
> was the father of Eudo d. April 1326 in Paris, and Roger among others.
> This Roger, is noted as the Grandson of Milicent, and the father of
> Roger mentioned as involved in the murder along with his brother Ralph.
> Moor does not list a Ralph separately. I will try to set out all the la
> Zouches listed in this book, but it may take some time.

Moor is mistaken here. We have a solid age for Roger of
Lubbesthorpe, the murderer. He was older than Eudo, son and heir
of William, and Roger of Lubbesthorpe is known to have been son
of an earlier Roger. Moor, not being aware of the Lubbesthorpe
data, simply assumed he was the younger brother of Eudo, but this
could not have been the case. Thus, it is as follows:

Eudo la Zouche William la Zouche
of Harringworth, Northants. I
d. 1279 = Millicent de Cantelou I
I I
I I
William la Zouche Roger la Zouche
of Harringworth, Northants. = Maud of Lubbesworth, Leics.
d. 1351 (aged ca. 75) I d. 1303

____________________I I
I I ___________I____________
I I I I
EUDO (aka Eon) Roger ROGER RALPH
b. ca. 1297 4th son b.c. 1292


d. Paris 1326 d. after 1349


taf

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 18, 2003, 8:46:13 AM6/18/03
to
All,

I am particularily intrigued by the possibilities in placing Roger la
Zouche through William of Black Torrington, part of the archdeaconry of
Totness. Totneys seems to have come into Zouche hands through Eudoąs
marriage to Milicent, daughter of Eve de Braose.

However, "The manor was given with Kings Nympton to Joel de Meduana by
Henry I, to Geoffrey de Luscy by King John, then by Henry III to Roger La
Zouche "who holds Blaketorrintun".
[http://privatewww.essex.ac.uk/~alan/family/GBlackTorrington.html]
It must have been acquired, ca. 1216-1235, by the la Zouche family through
Roger, who. m. Margaret Bisset.

From Roger la Zouche ca, 1175, d. 14 May 1238 in 1229 was Sheriff of
Devonshire. North Molton " had formerly a weekly market and a fair on All
Saints' day, granted in 1270 to Roger le Zouch [m. Ela Longspee], whose
family obtained the manor from King John. [before 1216]"
http://www.cs.ncl.ac.uk/genuki/DEV/NorthMolton/

Alan [m. Elena de Quincy], held North Malton Manor, Devon, Esseby la Zuche
Manor, Liec. North Molton and it descends through Roger who m. Ela Longspee
to Alan, d. 1313 who m. Elenor Seagrave who "held of the king in chief by
serjeanty of finding an armed man with a barded horse in the kings army for
40 days at his own charges" and willed it to his heirs, "Ellen and Maud, his
daughters are his next heirs and Maud the younger is aged 24."

Black Torrington is not among the properties in the line of Alan and must
then have passed to a line of an earlier generation. Roger la Zouche son and
heir of Sir Alan to leprous women and prior of Mydensbradeligh, 100s yearly
service for the souls of Sir Alan and Elena his wife, Sir Ivo la Zuche, Alan
la Zouche [1279 held Fulborn of his sd. bro, Roger], Nicholas Vallibus,
William de Dune AD 1269-1285.


25 December 1262 [Canterbury]To Thomas de Orreby, justice of Chester.
Whereas the whole march of Wales is disturbed by L. son of Griffin and his
accomplices ... the king is sending Alan la Zuche, justice of the forest on
this side Trent, to the said march for the preservation of the peace and the
defence of those parts, he commands the justice to deliver the castles of
Edward, the king's son, to wit, Chester, Beston and Shotwik, to Eudo la
Zuche, brother of the said Alan, without delay to keep in the name of the

said Alan until his arrival.


[Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1258-66, p.238: 47 Henry III - Part 1, m.19]

If Eudo/Eon/Ivo is brother to Alan, he cannot be the son, Eudo who m.
Milicent. Nevertheless, Beeston appears in the IPM of William of Bramfield
in the Haryngsworth line.

Of note, "Swaviseye and Fulborne. The manors...with the advowson of the
priory of Swaviseye, a meadow called eye, and a water mill at Newenham, held
for life, the gift of William Por of Swaviseye, chaplain by fine levied in
the kings court with remainders to William la Zouche of Richardąs Castle
[Mortimer] and the heirs of his body and to the right heirs of Alan, of the
earl of Richemund in chief by service of a pair of gilt spurs." These
properties continued in this la Zouche line to Alan la Zouche [Mortimer] who
died in 1346 and are so mentioned in the IPM of Alanąs wife, Eleanor who d.
in 1361.

Roger held Lubbesthorpe prior to 1302 when we find this: C 143/40/6


Roger la Zouch to grant a messuage, brushwood, land, and rent in
Lubbesthorpe to a chaplain of the chapel of St. Peter there, retaining land.

Leic. 30 EDWARD I. [1302]
The Inq. of Millicent de Cantilupe del la Zouche de Monte Alto was taken 27
Edw. I (1299) naming her son William, age 22, her heir, with lands in
Websnade, Wodemanleye, Birchmore, Toternho, Eddeworth, Beston and Henlawe,
Wymington, Leteburn and Mentmore in Bedford; lands in Feldhamme and
Wodehamme, Bucks. Calstone and Calne in Wilts.; Ruyton, Bulkynton, Wybytoft,
Wolfareshull, including a park held of John Comyn, earl of Boghan, one of
the heirs of Roger de Quyncy in Warwick; Odecomb in Somerset, Brnfield and
Little Houghton in nhants.; Totnes, Lodeswell, Cornworthy, Dertemere in
Devon; Haryngsworth in Nhants; and, Thorp Everard, Buscby, Belgrave and
lands in Leicester. Her father William de Kalna died 1255 leaving a son
George his heir and lands in Wilts., Warwick, Bedford and Bucks...7 hides
held of Hugh de Gurnay for 1/4 fe. All the rents of 19 hides were assigned


to Sir William de Cantilupo to John de Montealto, with his daughter, and the

rents of thre mills were assigned for life to Lady Agnes de Verdun.

There is no mention of Black Torrington in the IPM of William la Zouche or
de la Zouche of Haryngsworth. Writ 13 March 26 E III [1353] in which mention
in made of:
1) Wlliam la Zouche, son of Eudo la Zouche [of the Beler affair] aged 30
years and more at Christmas last is his heir.
2) Weston. The manor with its members, Folkeshull and Wolfareshull...held
for life, of the gift of Master John la Zouche, rector of the church of
Lodeswelle [Loddiswell near Plymouth, Devon].
3)Berughby. The manor ...with the advowson of the church held for life of
the gift of Master John le Zouche, rector of the church pf Lodeswelles ....
4) Leicester. Thorpe Ernald. the manor with its members, Busseby, Therneby
and Brenteby...held of the heir of Henry de Ferrariis, a minor in the kingą
wardship, by knightą service. [Thorpe Ernauld: Bounded by Burton Lazars,
Melton Mowbray on West...at the time of the Conqueror, Hugh de Grentnesmil
possessed the manor which included Brentyngby, and over Thurnby, Bushby,
Houghton...married to Adeliza....then properties came into possession of the
de Boscos of which there were 4 Ernaulds, all benefactors of the Abbey of
Leicester. At the time of Stephen, Ernauld was steward to Earl Robert of
Leicester. Isabel de Bosco/Bois who m. John Lovell to was one to whom whom
Ernauld gave the manors of Braunfield and Weston and the avowdson of
Bettlesden Abbey Descendants includWilliam Zuche who married Maud. Knights
of Edward I-p. 222: Lic. for William de Bosco to enfeoff Millicent de
Montealto of Manors of Thorp-Enaud, Leic., Weston, Warw., Bromfield and
Hoghton, N"hants, Ebrighton and Franecote Glous., Tybbeneye and Stanelak,
Oxon and Esyngton Suf., she to regrant a moiety thereof to said William for


life, remainder to her s. William la Zouche and wife Matilda and heirs

corp., and finally to right heirs of Matilda..12 Feb. 1296.]


I am posting Timothy J. Owstonąs chart for discussion and copying him.
ZOUCHE FAMILY

OF LUBESTHORPE, IN LEICESTERSHIRE

1. William la Zouche, alive 5 Apr 30 Edward 1, married and had
issue:-

2. Sir Roger la Zouche, died 1303.

2. Sir Roger la Zouche, died 1303.of Lubesthorpe, in Leicester
(given by Milicent de Monealto wife of Eudes la Zouche and sister
and heiress of George de Cantilupe), married and had issue:


3.1 John la Zouche

3.2 Ralph la Zouche, Outlawed 14 Mar 1326 over the death
of Roger Beller.

3.3 Roger la Zouche, died 1326.

3.3 Roger la Zouche, born about 1292 and died after 1326. Knighted

by Edward 111. Outlawed for murder of Roger Beller on the 14 April


1326. He married firstly Matilda, and secondly Foelicia and had
issue from both:-

Issue by Matilda:-

4.1 Juliana la Zouche, married to John St Andrews, whose
family inherited one third of the Manor of Lubesthorpe.

4.2 Margaret la Zouche, married to William Bredon.

4.3 William la Zouche, alive 22 Edward III and 37 Edward
III.

Issue by Foelicia:-

4.4 Johanna la Zouche, married to Marmaduke Constable of
Flamborough in Yorkshire as his first wife. He was
executor of the Will of William la Zouche Archbishop of
York. They definately had issue as Robert Constable who
died in 1441 was found to be in possession of one third
of the Manor of Lubesthorpe.

PAJ--C 143/292/5 William la Zouche, late dean of the church of St. Peter,


York, and Roger la Zouche, knight, to grant rent in North Witham and Gunby

to a chaplain in the parish church of Clipsham. Lincoln. The same to grant


messuages and land in Lubbesthorpe to certain chaplains in the chapel of St.
Mary there, the said Roger retaining land and rent in

Lubbesthorpe. Leic.???????????????

Notes:

1. J. Nichols in history of Leicester covers this family.

2. There is no definate evidence of how this family relate to the
main family of Zouche in Leicestershire. It is always thought that
Archbishop Zouche belonged to the main family and he chose
Marmaduke Constable to be his executor.

3. Robert Constable who died in 1441 was the father of Sir Robert
Constable who married Agnes Wentworth, a descendant through her
mother of the main Zouche family.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
This page is compiled by Timothy J. Owston of York, England.
Please contact me with any comments or information.
You can Email me at:
owst...@virgin.net

Pat


----------
>From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>

>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?

>Date: Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 10:54 PM

Ivor West

unread,
Jun 18, 2003, 2:24:54 PM6/18/03
to
I don't know about Geoffrey de Luscy's intervening position but the
way I have it is that Joel de Meyne was a Norman and Black Torrington
escheated to the Crown. Henry III regranted the manor to Roger la
Zouche in 1227. Roger's son, Alan, held it in 1241 and his son,
William la Zouche of Black Torrington, held it in 1275 (Hundred Rolls)
and 1285 (FA 327). William's son, Alan, died siezed of the advowson in
1314 and his other son, Emery, (1268 - 1334), held the manor. Emery
had two coheirs. One, Joan, married Richard Piperell and died s.p. The
other coheir married Walter fitzWarin, who had Emery fitzWarin and
Isabel fitzWarin, mother of William Davylles.

Ivor West

""Patricia Junkin"" <paju...@erols.com> wrote in message
news:E19ScKK-...@smtp03.mrf.mail.rcn.net...


> All,
>
> I am particularily intrigued by the possibilities in placing Roger
la
> Zouche through William of Black Torrington, part of the archdeaconry
of

> Totness. Totneys seems to have come into Zouche hands through Eudo零

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 18, 2003, 5:52:18 PM6/18/03
to

Ivor,

This is significant and I do thank you. It confirms my chart.

As I read your post, as follows, correct me if I have misintrepreted.

Joel de Meyne held Black Torrington--is there a time frame?
Reversion to the King--which?
Roger la Zouche who m. Margaret Bisset died 1238. You use the word
"re-granted," had Roger held it before King John?
Alan who m. Elena de Quincy holds in in 1241. [I had not found this
ownership.]
William la Zouche m. ? holds Black Torrington 1275
This William had two sons [known]:
1. Alan la Zouche m. ? was dead 1314 Black Torrington
2. Emery [1268-1334] [Are these Emery's heirs-- "the minors in the ward of
Alan de Cherlton who had married Helen la Zouche following the death of her
first husband, Nicholas St. Maur on his death 21 Sep 1334? And, the same man
mentioned in the IPM of Richard de Waumford alias de Wamforde 1313 who held


Blaketor. the hundred, held of the Emery la Souche by knights service

rendering 13s.4d. yearly?]

Since this Emery is the grandson of Alan, who was granted fairs at
Swaveseye in Camb., could he be the Sir Almaric la Zusche, sheriff of
Cambridge?

Thank you,
Pat


[Failed to send to list--sorry, Ivor, for a duplicate e-mail.]

>From: "Ivor West" <i...@freeuk.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 7:49:01 PM6/20/03
to
Patricia, John, Todd, and anyone else interested,

I have finished, I think, of piecing together a GEDCOM of the la
Zouches. Based on Heraldry I have created a pseudo-father of the Alan
and Eudo, with Alan the heir and Eudo starting a Cadet Line. There are
two Williams that I can't attach to fathers, based on Moor's notices.

I have tried to provide some indication of why I placed people where
they are, and the dates I came up with by quoting Moor. Please comment
on this GEDCOM as you see fit. Provide sources where possible, and if
you have access to the sources quoted by Moor and the time and ability,
please check them out and refute as appropriate.

Due to the size I have posted this file at
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=zouche_rcb

Hope this helps someone find the truth

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 10:58:52 PM6/20/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
> Patricia, John, Todd, and anyone else interested,
>
> I have finished, I think, of piecing together a GEDCOM of the la
> Zouches. Based on Heraldry I have created a pseudo-father of the Alan
> and Eudo, with Alan the heir and Eudo starting a Cadet Line. There are
> two Williams that I can't attach to fathers, based on Moor's notices.

Pseudo-father? Alan and Eudo's father is well known, he was
Roger la Zouche, son of Alan la Coche, son of Geoffrey, Vicomte
of Porhoet.

Roger (2nd son of Alan la Coche, heir to his brother William), by
his wife Margaret, had three sons, Alan, William, and Eudo.

> I have tried to provide some indication of why I placed people where
> they are, and the dates I came up with by quoting Moor. Please comment
> on this GEDCOM as you see fit. Provide sources where possible, and if
> you have access to the sources quoted by Moor and the time and ability,
> please check them out and refute as appropriate.
>
> Due to the size I have posted this file at
> http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=zouche_rcb

Again, you have shown Roger of Lubbesthorpe to be grandson of
Eudo and Milicent. This is chronologically impossible. Roger
received Lubbesthorpe from Milicent in 52 Henry III, which is
1268/9 (this is in the Moor text you quote). William, son of
Eudo and Milicent, who you show to be his father, was not born
until the 1270s, so he can't be father of someone older than he
himself. (Even with your dates (? Moor's dates), you have
William, born bef. 1276/7 being father, as his third son, of
Roger, b. bef. 1282. Moor clearly erroneously combined two
distinct "Roger son of William la Zouche"s, of two different
generations.

(I just noticed, if this 1268/9 date is accurate, it would be an
earlier 'before' date for the marriage of Eudo and Milicent than
that previously given. Do whe know when John de Montault died?)

Further, based on the arms, William, son of Eudes and Milicent
would be the eldest son of Eudes, as he inherited the arms of his
father. The Lubbesthorpes would not have derived from an older
son of Eudes by an earlier wife, or he would have been the senior
heir to his father, and entitled to the arms of Eudes - a canton
rather than a fesse. The problem with this conclusion is that
since Moor confused two distinct Rogers, it is unclear if these
fesse arms belonged to Roger of Lubbesthorpe, or instead to
Roger, son of William of Harringworth. Confusion is perhaps
likely since the son and heir of Roger of Lubbesthorpe bore
different arms than either of the two Moor applies to his father
(specifically, rather than bezancy with an ermine fesse, the
younger Roger is given quarterly, bezancy and ermine). Anyone
know the arms of the Richard's Castle Zouches? How about the
Black Torrington ones?

taf

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 20, 2003, 11:43:50 PM6/20/03
to

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Todd, wrote,


>
> Pseudo-father? Alan and Eudo's father is well known, he was
> Roger la Zouche, son of Alan la Coche, son of Geoffrey, Vicomte
> of Porhoet.
>
> Roger (2nd son of Alan la Coche, heir to his brother William), by
> his wife Margaret, had three sons, Alan, William, and Eudo.

I only wrote pseudo-father as Moor made no mention, to either Alan's
father, or Eudo's Father.

>
>
> Again, you have shown Roger of Lubbesthorpe to be grandson of

. . .


> distinct "Roger son of William la Zouche"s, of two different
> generations.
>
> (I just noticed, if this 1268/9 date is accurate, it would be an
> earlier 'before' date for the marriage of Eudo and Milicent than
> that previously given. Do whe know when John de Montault died?)
>

I only created this link, because it is exactly as Moor stated these
linkages. I understand the problems but that is why I posted this. To
try to see how the descents actually fit in.


> Further, based on the arms, William, son of Eudes and Milicent

....


> younger Roger is given quarterly, bezancy and ermine). Anyone
> know the arms of the Richard's Castle Zouches? How about the
> Black Torrington ones?
>

1 William la Zouche 1293 - 1326 Arms: Gules, bezanty Or, a label
Azure Arms2: Gules, 10 Bezants, a
label of 3 points Azure
.. +Alice de Tony 1275 -
......... 2 Ralph la Zouche 1305 -

Moor gives this William as of Richard's Castle.

And

This line of Black Torringtion.


1 WIliam la Zouche 1239 - 1287 Arms: Azure, bezanty Or.

+Maud 1235 -
.. 2 Joan la Zouche 1269 - 1287
.. +Robert de Mortimer 1250 - 1287
.. 2 Almaric la Zouche 1269 - 1334 Arms: Gules 10
Bezants, a bend Azure Arms2: Gules, besanty
Or, a bend Argent

Note: Almaric was placed here based on being baptized at Black
Torrington, where this William was overlord. The difference in arms
caused me to wonder about this.

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 2:13:27 AM6/21/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
>
>>Further, based on the arms, William, son of Eudes and Milicent
>
> ....
>
>>younger Roger is given quarterly, bezancy and ermine). Anyone
>>know the arms of the Richard's Castle Zouches? How about the
>>Black Torrington ones?
>>
>
>
> 1 William la Zouche 1293 - 1326 Arms: Gules, bezanty Or, a label
> Azure Arms2: Gules, 10 Bezants, a
> label of 3 points Azure
> .. +Alice de Tony 1275 -
> ......... 2 Ralph la Zouche 1305 -
>
> Moor gives this William as of Richard's Castle.
>

This William is maternal grandson of the brother of Eudes and
Alan. It is clear that he is using a differenced Zouche arms,
rather than Mortimer of Richard's Castle, his male line, which,
IIRC, was or, seme de lis, sable (? with a lion).


> And
>
> This line of Black Torringtion.
>
>
> 1 WIliam la Zouche 1239 - 1287 Arms: Azure, bezanty Or.
>
> +Maud 1235 -
> .. 2 Joan la Zouche 1269 - 1287
> .. +Robert de Mortimer 1250 - 1287
> .. 2 Almaric la Zouche 1269 - 1334 Arms: Gules 10
> Bezants, a bend Azure Arms2: Gules, besanty
> Or, a bend Argent
>
> Note: Almaric was placed here based on being baptized at Black
> Torrington, where this William was overlord. The difference in arms
> caused me to wonder about this.

This is interesting - Eudes seems to be the only one among the
immediate family who used the ermine difference. This might
provide stronger evidence for linking William, father of Roger of
Lubbesthorpe, to Eudes, either as illegitimate son (or younger
son of an elder Eudes if we split Eudes in two). Alternatively,
though, this use of ermine may have been in recognition of the
feudal relationship - Roger held Lubbesthorpe of this branch, so
perhaps the difference reflects this link, and not a specific a
blood tie, in which case all bets are off for his genealogy.

Does anyone find it suggestive that Roger had prayers said for
the soul of his father, Eudes, and Milicent, but not his mother?
Perhaps this has no more significance than what we already know
- that it was Milicent that left him his land.

taf

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 7:01:42 AM6/21/03
to
Todd wrote,

> Richard wrote,


> >
> >
> > 1 William la Zouche 1293 - 1326 Arms: Gules, bezanty Or,
a label
> > Azure Arms2: Gules, 10
Bezants, a
> > label of 3 points Azure
>

> This William is maternal grandson of the brother of Eudes and
> Alan. It is clear that he is using a differenced Zouche arms,
> rather than Mortimer of Richard's Castle, his male line, which,
> IIRC, was or, seme de lis, sable (? with a lion).
>

These arms are not differenced; they are the same as given for Alan la
Zouche.


> > This line of Black Torringtion.
> >
> >
> > 1 WIliam la Zouche 1239 - 1287 Arms: Azure, bezanty Or.
> >
> > +Maud 1235 -
> > .. 2 Joan la Zouche 1269 - 1287
> > .. +Robert de Mortimer 1250 - 1287
> > .. 2 Almaric la Zouche 1269 - 1334 Arms: Gules 10
> > Bezants, a bend Azure Arms2: Gules,
besanty
> > Or, a bend Argent
> >

Why did this William change from Gules to Azure? And if Almaric is
actually his son, why did he revert to gules and difference with a bend
Argent?

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, Tx

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 1:38:11 PM6/21/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
> Todd wrote,
>
>>Richard wrote,
>>>
>>>1 William la Zouche 1293 - 1326
>>> Arms: Gules bezanty Or, a label Azure
>>> Arms: Gules, 10 Bezants a label of 3 points Azure

>>
>>This William is maternal grandson of the brother of Eudes and
>>Alan. It is clear that he is using a differenced Zouche arms,
>>rather than Mortimer of Richard's Castle, his male line, which,
>>IIRC, was or, seme de lis, sable (? with a lion).
>
> These arms are not differenced; they are the same as given for Alan la
> Zouche.

I checked again. In the account of Alan, you (presumably from
Moor) give Gules, bezancy or. (No label). The three pointed
blue label would be the difference.

>>>This line of Black Torringtion.
>>>
>>>1 WIliam la Zouche 1239 - 1287 Arms: Azure, bezanty Or.

>>>.. 2 Almaric la Zouche 1269 - 1334
>>> Arms: Gules 10 Bezants, a bend Azure

>>> Arms2: Gules, besanty, Or, a bend Argent


>
> Why did this William change from Gules to Azure?

Difference. We see the opposite change (blue and gold checked to
red and gold checked) in one of the lines descending from Isabel
de Vermandois.

> And if Almaric is
> actually his son, why did he revert to gules and difference with a bend
> Argent?

I don't think Almaric's link is questioned. As to why he used a
different difference, these rules were not hard and fast.
Perhaps the blue was too different to maintain the desired
indication of affinity.

taf

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 2:24:35 PM6/21/03
to
Todd,
Thank you for the reference to William la Zouche of York's will. Could you
tell me where it may be found since I have many questions relating to it.
For instance, is property mentioned? In what context is his brother Roger
mentioned? What is the date of the will? Etc.

Thank you,
Pat

----------
>From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <farm...@interfold.com>

>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: Re: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?

>Date: Sat, Jun 21, 2003, 1:38 PM

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 2:48:29 PM6/21/03
to
Patricia Junkin wrote:
> Thank you for the reference to William la Zouche of York's will. Could you
> tell me where it may be found since I have many questions relating to it.

Based on my sketchy notes, it appears to be from a book called
"Testamenta Eboracensia". These are old and yellowed
photocopies, so I have no further memory that might help.


> For instance, is property mentioned? In what context is his brother Roger
> mentioned? What is the date of the will? Etc.

I see no property mentioned by name. As to Roger, "Hujus autem
testamenti et ultimę voluntatis meę hos constituo executores,
videlicet Dominum Radulphum Nevyll dominum de Raby, Dominos
Rogerum la Zouche fratrem meum, Marmaducum Constable, Willielmum
de Playce, Christopherum Malore, milites, Magistrum Gilbertum de
Welton, Dominum Willielmum de Ferriby, Dominum Rogerum de
Stiendby clericos, et Anketillum Malore armingerum literatum,
sine quibus quidem Rogero de Stiendby et Anketillo nolo quod
quicquam de bonis meis predictis aliqualiter ministretur." It is
dated 28 Jun. 1349, and probated 27 Jul. 1352.

taf

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 5:37:43 PM6/21/03
to
Richard,

I had mentioned this in one of the last e-mails but thought I would suggest
again that William la Z. 1249-89 whose son is probably Almaric is not the
same, I think, as the William la Z. d. c. 1272 who m. Maud Hobridge. Maud
had m. 1st John de Trailly who d. died 1235, of Yelden, co. Bedford. She was
the daughter and co-heiress of William de Hobridge, of Howbridge in Witham,
Essex. William La Zuch:Writ of Certiorari 3 Feb. on the complaint of John de
Traylli, that the escheator had taken in to the kingıs hands the manor of
Hibruggı, which the said William held by courtesy of England of the
inheritance of Maud the said Johnıs mother. Inq. The day of St. Peter ad
Cathedram, 56 Hen.III [1272]
Essex. Hobrugı manor was not held of his own inheritance, but he held it by
the courtesy of England of the inheritance of Maud, sometime his wife. Sir
John de Trailly is the next heir of the said Maud. Hen III.
C 47/14/1/11 Writ to sheriff of Essex: to enquire into the lands, heir etc
of William la Zouche and Matilda his wife
56 Hen III [1272]

The Joyce who m. Roger de Mortimer. I believe that this William was also
Sherif of Sussex 1262-3 since his grandson William de Mortymer la Zouche in
Inquisition ad. g. d. 7 ED II, No 107 Coram Regis Rolls, 2 ED III, (1329)
Roll 113...wherein are proceedings of William la Zouche of Ashby and Ralph
his son against John atte Lee, Roger, parson of the church of Stopham...John
atte Ford ets. for fishing in the fish ponds of the said William and Ralph
at Stopham. This la Z. line came to the de Mortymer line through Alan who
had only daughters.
The Witham referred to in the document of William dean of York is in
Lincolnshire.

I believe that William inherited Black Torrington from his father, Alan who
m. Elena de Quincy.
Pat

----------
>From: "Richard C. Browning, Jr." <bro...@anet-dfw.com>
>To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
>Subject: RE: La Zouche and Lubbesthorpe, co. Leics. - A Constable Connection
?
>Date: Sat, Jun 21, 2003, 7:03 AM
>

> Todd wrote,
>
>> Richard wrote,
>> >
>> >
>> > 1 William la Zouche 1293 - 1326 Arms: Gules, bezanty Or,
> a label
>> > Azure Arms2: Gules, 10
> Bezants, a


>> > label of 3 points Azure
>>
>> This William is maternal grandson of the brother of Eudes and
>> Alan. It is clear that he is using a differenced Zouche arms,
>> rather than Mortimer of Richard's Castle, his male line, which,
>> IIRC, was or, seme de lis, sable (? with a lion).
>>
>
> These arms are not differenced; they are the same as given for Alan la
> Zouche.
>
>

>> > This line of Black Torringtion.
>> >
>> >
>> > 1 WIliam la Zouche 1239 - 1287 Arms: Azure, bezanty Or.
>> >

>> > +Maud 1235 -
>> > .. 2 Joan la Zouche 1269 - 1287
>> > .. +Robert de Mortimer 1250 - 1287

>> > .. 2 Almaric la Zouche 1269 - 1334 Arms: Gules 10
>> > Bezants, a bend Azure Arms2: Gules,
> besanty

>> > Or, a bend Argent
>> >
>
> Why did this William change from Gules to Azure? And if Almaric is


> actually his son, why did he revert to gules and difference with a bend
> Argent?
>

Richard C. Browning, Jr.

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 7:30:57 PM6/21/03
to

Patricia Junkin Wrote

> I had mentioned this in one of the last e-mails but thought I would
> suggest
> again that William la Z. 1249-89 whose son is probably Almaric is not
the
> same, I think, as the William la Z. d. c. 1272 who m. Maud Hobridge.
Maud
> had m. 1st John de Trailly who d. died 1235, of Yelden, co. Bedford.
She

I only put Almaric as son of this William, as he was listed as son of
William, and baptized in Black Torrington, and this William was stated
to be overlord of Black Torrington. Which William is the father of
Almaric?

> 56 Hen III [1272]
>
> The Joyce who m. Roger de Mortimer. I believe that this William was
also
> Sherif of Sussex 1262-3 since his grandson William de Mortymer la
Zouche
> in

Moor say this " Made Sheriff of Surr. and Suss. and Const. of Guildford
Cas. 9 Jy., but being ill he resigns 19 Jy., and is again appointed 8
Oct. 1261."


>
> I believe that William inherited Black Torrington from his father,
Alan
> who
> m. Elena de Quincy.
> Pat
>


Moor say this of an Elena la Zouche in the notices of Alan, (who had
only daughters for heirs,) son of Roger, son of Alan, " Sr Alan la Z. is
heir of Elena la Z. 20 Aug. (Inq.), and has livery of her lands 14 Oct.
1296."

I am currently trying to make sense of the holdings of all these people
and to revisit the GEDCOM to verify entries. Will let you know what I
find out.

Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX

Todd A. Farmerie

unread,
Jun 21, 2003, 9:44:28 PM6/21/03
to
Richard C. Browning, Jr. wrote:
>
> Patricia Junkin Wrote
>
>
>>I had mentioned this in one of the last e-mails but thought I would
>>suggest
>>again that William la Z. 1249-89 whose son is probably Almaric is not
>
> the
>
>>same, I think, as the William la Z. d. c. 1272 who m. Maud Hobridge.
>
> Maud
>
>>had m. 1st John de Trailly who d. died 1235, of Yelden, co. Bedford.
>
> She
>
> I only put Almaric as son of this William, as he was listed as son of
> William, and baptized in Black Torrington, and this William was stated
> to be overlord of Black Torrington. Which William is the father of
> Almaric?


Almaric was son of William of Black Torrington, son of Alan and
Elena de Quincy. That is not in doubt. The question is whether
it is this William who married Matilda/Maud, or a different
William (either the brother of Alan or the father of Roger,
assuming they are distinct).

taf

Patricia Junkin

unread,
Jun 22, 2003, 8:22:17 AM6/22/03