info
Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss
PA3/RPA Corrections: Berney of Reedham
255 views
Skip to first unread message
Brad Verity
Sep 10, 2012, 6:36:32 PM9/10/12
to
While researching the ancestry of Margaret Berney, wife of Edward
Paston of Appleton Hall (ancestors of Princess Diana), I made use of
the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which has 3 generations of
Margaret's Berney ancestors on page 412 (sub Jennings).
A little further research on my own showed that the Berney accounts in
PA3/RPA had quite a few errors & omissions, so I figured I'd take a
break from lines of descent and do one of my PA3/RPA Corrections
posts.
Let's start with the earliest Berney generation: Margaret Wentworth is
married, as his 2nd wife, to John Berney, son of John Berney of
Reedham, Norfolk & Elizabeth, dau of Osbert Mundeford of Hockford.
John Berney's first wife was Alice, dau of Richard Southwell of
Woodrising, and John died 27 October 1536. By 2nd wife Margaret
Wentworth he had 2 sons, and she was living in 1532. Almost
everything in the account contains error.
1) Terry Booth, in a post he made to the newsgroup last year, showed
that no daughter of Osbert Mountford married a John Berney but rather
Elizabeth, the widow of Thomas Berney (died 1441) married, as her 2nd
husband, Osbert Mountford. Nor was this Elizabeth the mother of the
John Berney who married Margaret Wentworh:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/bf2373774085a0a5?hl=en
2) Alice Southwell was not the first wife of the John Berney who
married Margaret Wentworth (who appears to have been his sole wife),
but was rather his mother (or possibly step-mother). Per a well-
researched website on the Berneys, the IPM for John Berney of Reedham
(the father of the John who married Margaret Wentworth) was taken on
22 November 1506. John the father died on 6 January 1506, leaving a
wife Alice, and a son and heir John who was aged 21 and more (so born
by 1485):
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0126.html
The website has this Alice as Alice Southwell & the mother of John.
That may not be accurate, and further research is warranted. There
was a Sir Richard Southwell of Woodrising (1502-1564), who has a bio
in ODNB, and who was son of Francis Southwell of Wymondham (d. 1512).
It seems likely that Alice, the wife of John Berney of Reedham (d.
1506) was of the family of Francis Southwell, but I don't know how she
fits in exactly.
3) John Berney of Reedham (born by 1485), the husband of Margaret
Wentworth, did not die on 27 October 1536, but instead (per the Berney
website) on 22 October 1527:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0119.html
The 1527 date matches up to the account of Caston Hall manor in
Blomefield's Norfolk Volume 2, in which "in 1506, John Berney of
Redham left it to John, his son and heir, who held it with Barries
manor in Rockland-Tofts, Caston, and Thompson; and in 1527, left them
to John, his son and heir":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=bwUVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=John+Berney+died+1527&source=bl&ots=mrlw4AL5sa&sig=c15FT3so9SKJYnX4M1wtKLmPQL4&hl=en#v=onepage&q=John%20Berney%20died%201527&f=false
4) John Berney & Margaret Wentworth had more than just 2 sons. Per
the Berney website linked to above, they had 3 sons - John, Robert and
Richard - and 3 daughters - Elizabeth, Mary & Amy.
5) We know from the will of his son (see below), that John Berney of
Reedham (by1485-1527) was buried in St John the Baptist Church,
Reedham, Norfolk.
6) Margaret Wentworth Berney was not only alive in 1532, but had taken
a second husband by 1546, when he presented the new rector to the
church at West Tofts on her behalf, as Terry Booth noted in the same
post I linked to above. "1546, 6 Aug. John Bowgeon, on the death of
the last rector. John Harwarde, Gent. in right of his wife Margaret,
widow of John Berney, Esq.":
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78061
I believe Margaret's second husband John Harward was most likely the
John Harward of South Repps who was the father, by his (previous)
wife, --- Wotton (of the same family as the Marchioness of Dorset,
maybe?), of Gregory Harward of Gunton (d. 1552), who married Elizabeth
Berney, Margaret Wentworth's daughter:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=qkpFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Gregory+Harward+of+Gunton&source=bl&ots=oHFrorI1jP&sig=jCLyjcljuhbYvMT6SnnvcrKiXnA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u09OUOqiJIiTiQKw-YCICA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Gregory%20Harward%20of%20Gunton&f=false
I'm not familiar with the Harward family - this is the first I'm
encountering them. If someone who is more familiar with them can make
a better placement of Margaret's 2nd husband John Harward, please let
me know.
Finally, we know from the will of her son (see below), that Margaret
was still alive when he wrote it in 1553-54.
Moving along to the next Berney generation in PA3/RPA, we have John
Berney of Reedham, born about 1518 (aged 18 in 1536), and died testate
(P.C.C. 27 Mellershe) in 1560. He married 1st, Margaret, dau of
William Reade of Beccles, Suffolk & Margaret Tooley. She died 17 March
1548, having had 2 sons & 1 daughter. John married 2nd in 1552 Alice
Ferrer, widow of William Sydnor, and dau of Robert Ferrer. Almost all
of this (save the death date & parentage of John's 1st wife Margaret
Reade) contains error.
1) Since we now know John Berney's father died in 1527, not 1536, I'm
not sure if John's birthdate of about 1518 is still accurate. The
Berney website says he was born 1509. That seems somewhat too early,
with Margaret Wentworth's own mother Alice Tyrrell having been born in
1474. The correct birthdate likely is somewhere between those dates
of 1509 & 1518.
2) John Berney did not die in 1560, but rather on 27 April 1557, per
the Berney website, which lists "IPM. Series 11,Vol.115, at Norwich
22nd July, 5&6 Philip and Mary [1557-8]" as one of its sources for
John:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0110.html
I don't know which will "P.C.C. 27 Mellershe" is, but the Berney
website abstracts John's will, which was written between 22 July 1553
and 30 January 1554. Administration of John's estate was granted to
his son & heir Henry Berney on 9 May 1558.
3) John Berney (d. 1557) had more than 2 sons & 1 daughter with his
1st wife Margaret Reade. Per the Berney website, they had 4 sons -
Henry, Thomas, Robert & Richard - and 7 daughters - Anne, Margaret,
Mary, Thomasine, Elizabeth, Ursula & Ellen, most of whom are named in
John's will.
4) John Berney's second wife Alice was neither the daughter of a
Robert Ferrer, nor the widow of a William Sydnor. Instead, she was
Alice Jenour, daughter & heiress of Robert Jenour of Barnes, Kent
(whose will was proved 10 November 1536) & Margaret Heigham (whose
will was proved 1551). There is probably interesting ancestry behind
Margaret Heigham, but it wouldn't go back to Edward I, so I'll leave
it to someone else to unearth. Alice Jenour married 1st, Paul Sydnor
of Grays Inn (born 1507; died in London 16 December 1551), per this
well-researched website on the Sydnor family:
http://sydnor.org/fifth_generation.htm
Alice married 2ndly, 1552, John Berney of Reedham (d. 1557), survived
him, but not by much, and was buried 2 May 1558 at All Saints Church,
Ellough, Suffolk. Alice's son & heir by her 1st husband was William
Sydnor of Blundeston (born 22 June 1542; died 10 August, buried 13
August 1613, St Mary Church, Blundeston, Suffolk), who married
(licence 7 May 1558), as his 1st wife, his stepsister Ursula Berney
(buried 5 August 1568, All Saints Church, Ellough, Suffolk), daughter
of John Berney of Reedham & 1st wife Margaret Reade.
5) From the will of John Berney's son & heir (see below), we know he
was buried at St John the Baptist Church, Reedham, Norfolk.
The next Berney generation from PA3/RPA is the final one I examined:
Henry Berney of Park Hall (in Reedham) died testate in 1584. He
married Alice, dau of Roger Appleton of Dartford & Agnes Clarke, and
they had 3 sons - Thomas, Henry, John - and 3 daus, including Anne
(wife of Thomas Gybbon) and Margaret (wife of Edmund Paston). Both
Henry Berney & his wife Alice were buried at St John the Baptist
Church, Reedham, Suffolk. Thankfully, this generation contains much
less error, though it could do with some elaboration.
1) Henry Berney was born about 1533, per the Berney website, which may
have taken that date from his father's IPM. He died 4 March 1584/5,
and the website cites one of its sources for him as "Chancery IPM.,
11,Vol.206,no.10. At Norwich 8th July, 27 Elizabeth, 1584" [sic-July
in 27 Elizabeth was the year 1585]:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0309.html
The website also abstracts Henry's will, which was dated 3 March
1584/5, and proved 9 May 1585.
2) Henry Berney & Alice Appleton had a total of 4 sons - Thomas,
Henry, John & Richard - and 3 daughters - Anne, Margaret, Mary, all
named in Henry's will. Daughter Margaret did not marry "Edmund"
Paston, but rather Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630).
There you have it. At least the Berney line of descent itself, as
presented in PA3/RPA, is accurate and doesn't require major revision,
as the Bevan one does.
Cheers, ---------Brad
Paston of Appleton Hall (ancestors of Princess Diana), I made use of
the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which has 3 generations of
Margaret's Berney ancestors on page 412 (sub Jennings).
A little further research on my own showed that the Berney accounts in
PA3/RPA had quite a few errors & omissions, so I figured I'd take a
break from lines of descent and do one of my PA3/RPA Corrections
posts.
Let's start with the earliest Berney generation: Margaret Wentworth is
married, as his 2nd wife, to John Berney, son of John Berney of
Reedham, Norfolk & Elizabeth, dau of Osbert Mundeford of Hockford.
John Berney's first wife was Alice, dau of Richard Southwell of
Woodrising, and John died 27 October 1536. By 2nd wife Margaret
Wentworth he had 2 sons, and she was living in 1532. Almost
everything in the account contains error.
1) Terry Booth, in a post he made to the newsgroup last year, showed
that no daughter of Osbert Mountford married a John Berney but rather
Elizabeth, the widow of Thomas Berney (died 1441) married, as her 2nd
husband, Osbert Mountford. Nor was this Elizabeth the mother of the
John Berney who married Margaret Wentworh:
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/bf2373774085a0a5?hl=en
2) Alice Southwell was not the first wife of the John Berney who
married Margaret Wentworth (who appears to have been his sole wife),
but was rather his mother (or possibly step-mother). Per a well-
researched website on the Berneys, the IPM for John Berney of Reedham
(the father of the John who married Margaret Wentworth) was taken on
22 November 1506. John the father died on 6 January 1506, leaving a
wife Alice, and a son and heir John who was aged 21 and more (so born
by 1485):
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0126.html
The website has this Alice as Alice Southwell & the mother of John.
That may not be accurate, and further research is warranted. There
was a Sir Richard Southwell of Woodrising (1502-1564), who has a bio
in ODNB, and who was son of Francis Southwell of Wymondham (d. 1512).
It seems likely that Alice, the wife of John Berney of Reedham (d.
1506) was of the family of Francis Southwell, but I don't know how she
fits in exactly.
3) John Berney of Reedham (born by 1485), the husband of Margaret
Wentworth, did not die on 27 October 1536, but instead (per the Berney
website) on 22 October 1527:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0119.html
The 1527 date matches up to the account of Caston Hall manor in
Blomefield's Norfolk Volume 2, in which "in 1506, John Berney of
Redham left it to John, his son and heir, who held it with Barries
manor in Rockland-Tofts, Caston, and Thompson; and in 1527, left them
to John, his son and heir":
http://books.google.ca/books?id=bwUVAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA285&lpg=PA285&dq=John+Berney+died+1527&source=bl&ots=mrlw4AL5sa&sig=c15FT3so9SKJYnX4M1wtKLmPQL4&hl=en#v=onepage&q=John%20Berney%20died%201527&f=false
4) John Berney & Margaret Wentworth had more than just 2 sons. Per
the Berney website linked to above, they had 3 sons - John, Robert and
Richard - and 3 daughters - Elizabeth, Mary & Amy.
5) We know from the will of his son (see below), that John Berney of
Reedham (by1485-1527) was buried in St John the Baptist Church,
Reedham, Norfolk.
6) Margaret Wentworth Berney was not only alive in 1532, but had taken
a second husband by 1546, when he presented the new rector to the
church at West Tofts on her behalf, as Terry Booth noted in the same
post I linked to above. "1546, 6 Aug. John Bowgeon, on the death of
the last rector. John Harwarde, Gent. in right of his wife Margaret,
widow of John Berney, Esq.":
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78061
I believe Margaret's second husband John Harward was most likely the
John Harward of South Repps who was the father, by his (previous)
wife, --- Wotton (of the same family as the Marchioness of Dorset,
maybe?), of Gregory Harward of Gunton (d. 1552), who married Elizabeth
Berney, Margaret Wentworth's daughter:
http://books.google.ca/books?id=qkpFAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA101&lpg=PA101&dq=Gregory+Harward+of+Gunton&source=bl&ots=oHFrorI1jP&sig=jCLyjcljuhbYvMT6SnnvcrKiXnA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u09OUOqiJIiTiQKw-YCICA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=Gregory%20Harward%20of%20Gunton&f=false
I'm not familiar with the Harward family - this is the first I'm
encountering them. If someone who is more familiar with them can make
a better placement of Margaret's 2nd husband John Harward, please let
me know.
Finally, we know from the will of her son (see below), that Margaret
was still alive when he wrote it in 1553-54.
Moving along to the next Berney generation in PA3/RPA, we have John
Berney of Reedham, born about 1518 (aged 18 in 1536), and died testate
(P.C.C. 27 Mellershe) in 1560. He married 1st, Margaret, dau of
William Reade of Beccles, Suffolk & Margaret Tooley. She died 17 March
1548, having had 2 sons & 1 daughter. John married 2nd in 1552 Alice
Ferrer, widow of William Sydnor, and dau of Robert Ferrer. Almost all
of this (save the death date & parentage of John's 1st wife Margaret
Reade) contains error.
1) Since we now know John Berney's father died in 1527, not 1536, I'm
not sure if John's birthdate of about 1518 is still accurate. The
Berney website says he was born 1509. That seems somewhat too early,
with Margaret Wentworth's own mother Alice Tyrrell having been born in
1474. The correct birthdate likely is somewhere between those dates
of 1509 & 1518.
2) John Berney did not die in 1560, but rather on 27 April 1557, per
the Berney website, which lists "IPM. Series 11,Vol.115, at Norwich
22nd July, 5&6 Philip and Mary [1557-8]" as one of its sources for
John:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0110.html
I don't know which will "P.C.C. 27 Mellershe" is, but the Berney
website abstracts John's will, which was written between 22 July 1553
and 30 January 1554. Administration of John's estate was granted to
his son & heir Henry Berney on 9 May 1558.
3) John Berney (d. 1557) had more than 2 sons & 1 daughter with his
1st wife Margaret Reade. Per the Berney website, they had 4 sons -
Henry, Thomas, Robert & Richard - and 7 daughters - Anne, Margaret,
Mary, Thomasine, Elizabeth, Ursula & Ellen, most of whom are named in
John's will.
4) John Berney's second wife Alice was neither the daughter of a
Robert Ferrer, nor the widow of a William Sydnor. Instead, she was
Alice Jenour, daughter & heiress of Robert Jenour of Barnes, Kent
(whose will was proved 10 November 1536) & Margaret Heigham (whose
will was proved 1551). There is probably interesting ancestry behind
Margaret Heigham, but it wouldn't go back to Edward I, so I'll leave
it to someone else to unearth. Alice Jenour married 1st, Paul Sydnor
of Grays Inn (born 1507; died in London 16 December 1551), per this
well-researched website on the Sydnor family:
http://sydnor.org/fifth_generation.htm
Alice married 2ndly, 1552, John Berney of Reedham (d. 1557), survived
him, but not by much, and was buried 2 May 1558 at All Saints Church,
Ellough, Suffolk. Alice's son & heir by her 1st husband was William
Sydnor of Blundeston (born 22 June 1542; died 10 August, buried 13
August 1613, St Mary Church, Blundeston, Suffolk), who married
(licence 7 May 1558), as his 1st wife, his stepsister Ursula Berney
(buried 5 August 1568, All Saints Church, Ellough, Suffolk), daughter
of John Berney of Reedham & 1st wife Margaret Reade.
5) From the will of John Berney's son & heir (see below), we know he
was buried at St John the Baptist Church, Reedham, Norfolk.
The next Berney generation from PA3/RPA is the final one I examined:
Henry Berney of Park Hall (in Reedham) died testate in 1584. He
married Alice, dau of Roger Appleton of Dartford & Agnes Clarke, and
they had 3 sons - Thomas, Henry, John - and 3 daus, including Anne
(wife of Thomas Gybbon) and Margaret (wife of Edmund Paston). Both
Henry Berney & his wife Alice were buried at St John the Baptist
Church, Reedham, Suffolk. Thankfully, this generation contains much
less error, though it could do with some elaboration.
1) Henry Berney was born about 1533, per the Berney website, which may
have taken that date from his father's IPM. He died 4 March 1584/5,
and the website cites one of its sources for him as "Chancery IPM.,
11,Vol.206,no.10. At Norwich 8th July, 27 Elizabeth, 1584" [sic-July
in 27 Elizabeth was the year 1585]:
http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSITE-0001/UHP-0309.html
The website also abstracts Henry's will, which was dated 3 March
1584/5, and proved 9 May 1585.
2) Henry Berney & Alice Appleton had a total of 4 sons - Thomas,
Henry, John & Richard - and 3 daughters - Anne, Margaret, Mary, all
named in Henry's will. Daughter Margaret did not marry "Edmund"
Paston, but rather Edward Paston of Appleton Hall (1550-1630).
There you have it. At least the Berney line of descent itself, as
presented in PA3/RPA, is accurate and doesn't require major revision,
as the Bevan one does.
Cheers, ---------Brad
Douglas Richardson
Sep 12, 2012, 10:41:23 AM9/12/12
to
Dear Brad ~
Regarding John Berney, Esq., of Reedham, Norfolk (husband of Margaret Wentworth), in your post you assign a death date of 22 October 1527 for him based on an unsourced online genealogical database.
On the other hand, Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History of Norfolk 11 (1810): 121–132 assigns him death date of 27 October 1536, based on an inquisition post mortem for John Berney which he quotes at length. I used that date in my books. Normally Blomefield would be a reliable source to use. But as we will see below, Blomefield may have misdated the inquisition.
Here is Blomefield's statement:
"(4) On an inquisition taken at Norwich, November 7, Ao. 28th of Henry VIII [1536]. John Berney, Esq. was found to die on the 27th of October past, seised of the manor and advowson of Redham, held of Sir William Say, the manor and advowson of Stokesby, held of Catherine Queen of England, in fee farm, as of the honour of Clare, Norton Subcross manor, held of the manor of Loddon, Caston Hall in Shipdam, held of the manor of Saham, and Caston Hall manor in Caston, with Barry's manor in Rockland Tofts, Bradeston manor held of the manor of Blofield, Turtevile's manor in Wychinham Parva, held of Castleacre manor, Bradeston manor and advowson, with the chapel of St. Clement, North and South Birlingham manors, with the manor and advowson of Strumpshagh, held of the manor of Blofield.
He had by Margaret, daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of Essex, John his son and heir aged 18." END OF QUOTE.
As you read Blomefield further, I note he states that in 1530 Richard Southwell and other feoffees of Reedham manor presented to the church of Reedham, Norfolk "to the use and last will of John Berney lately deceased."
So did John Berney die in 1536 (as per the quoted inquisition), or was he lately deceased in 1530?
To get a better fix on the date of John Berney's inquisition, I consulted a modern index of Norfolk inquisitions published in Rye, Norfolk Records: being an Index to Four Series of Norfolk Inquisitions 2 (1892): 14. This source may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CdQGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14
I checked Rye's index for the surnames Berney, Burney, and Barney. Surprisingly Rye doesn't list an inquisition for John Berney in 1536, nor c.1530.
The closest item he has is the following inquisition:
James Berney; Ch., 20 Henry VIII, No. 162
Since Blomefield surely saw an inquisition for John Berney, it is puzzling why it isn't included in Rye's index. I don't have an immediate explanation as to why John Berney's inquisition is quoted by Blomefield but overlooked by Rye. Unless the inquisition listed for James Berney dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9] is the correct inquisition.
Even so, I believe the 1536 date for the inquisition is wrong for a second reason. In the same section as the other two items mentioned above, Blomefield states that John Barney's wife, Margaret, "was living in 1532, and presented to the church of Stokesby."
Under normal circumstances, a wife would not present to a church alone unless her husband was dead or out of the country. In this case, I assume John Berney was dead in 1532.
So we have an inquisition dated 1536, which specifically states that John Berney, Esq., died on 27 October 1536. But we have two good indications elsewhere that John Berney was dead in 1530 and 1532.
Since I'm certain that the inquisition post mortem for John Berney does exist, this matter requires further study. My guess is that the inquisition for John Berney is the one listed above for James Berney dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9]. Assuming everything else in Blomefield is correct, that would place John Berney's death date as 27 October 1528.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
(author cites inquisition post mortem dated 7 Nov. 28 Henry VIII [1536] which states John Berney, Esq., died “27th of October past.”).
Regarding John Berney, Esq., of Reedham, Norfolk (husband of Margaret Wentworth), in your post you assign a death date of 22 October 1527 for him based on an unsourced online genealogical database.
On the other hand, Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History of Norfolk 11 (1810): 121–132 assigns him death date of 27 October 1536, based on an inquisition post mortem for John Berney which he quotes at length. I used that date in my books. Normally Blomefield would be a reliable source to use. But as we will see below, Blomefield may have misdated the inquisition.
Here is Blomefield's statement:
"(4) On an inquisition taken at Norwich, November 7, Ao. 28th of Henry VIII [1536]. John Berney, Esq. was found to die on the 27th of October past, seised of the manor and advowson of Redham, held of Sir William Say, the manor and advowson of Stokesby, held of Catherine Queen of England, in fee farm, as of the honour of Clare, Norton Subcross manor, held of the manor of Loddon, Caston Hall in Shipdam, held of the manor of Saham, and Caston Hall manor in Caston, with Barry's manor in Rockland Tofts, Bradeston manor held of the manor of Blofield, Turtevile's manor in Wychinham Parva, held of Castleacre manor, Bradeston manor and advowson, with the chapel of St. Clement, North and South Birlingham manors, with the manor and advowson of Strumpshagh, held of the manor of Blofield.
He had by Margaret, daughter of Sir Roger Wentworth of Essex, John his son and heir aged 18." END OF QUOTE.
As you read Blomefield further, I note he states that in 1530 Richard Southwell and other feoffees of Reedham manor presented to the church of Reedham, Norfolk "to the use and last will of John Berney lately deceased."
So did John Berney die in 1536 (as per the quoted inquisition), or was he lately deceased in 1530?
To get a better fix on the date of John Berney's inquisition, I consulted a modern index of Norfolk inquisitions published in Rye, Norfolk Records: being an Index to Four Series of Norfolk Inquisitions 2 (1892): 14. This source may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://books.google.com/books?id=CdQGAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA14
I checked Rye's index for the surnames Berney, Burney, and Barney. Surprisingly Rye doesn't list an inquisition for John Berney in 1536, nor c.1530.
The closest item he has is the following inquisition:
James Berney; Ch., 20 Henry VIII, No. 162
Since Blomefield surely saw an inquisition for John Berney, it is puzzling why it isn't included in Rye's index. I don't have an immediate explanation as to why John Berney's inquisition is quoted by Blomefield but overlooked by Rye. Unless the inquisition listed for James Berney dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9] is the correct inquisition.
Even so, I believe the 1536 date for the inquisition is wrong for a second reason. In the same section as the other two items mentioned above, Blomefield states that John Barney's wife, Margaret, "was living in 1532, and presented to the church of Stokesby."
Under normal circumstances, a wife would not present to a church alone unless her husband was dead or out of the country. In this case, I assume John Berney was dead in 1532.
So we have an inquisition dated 1536, which specifically states that John Berney, Esq., died on 27 October 1536. But we have two good indications elsewhere that John Berney was dead in 1530 and 1532.
Since I'm certain that the inquisition post mortem for John Berney does exist, this matter requires further study. My guess is that the inquisition for John Berney is the one listed above for James Berney dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9]. Assuming everything else in Blomefield is correct, that would place John Berney's death date as 27 October 1528.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
(author cites inquisition post mortem dated 7 Nov. 28 Henry VIII [1536] which states John Berney, Esq., died “27th of October past.”).
MILLARD A.R.
Sep 12, 2012, 11:14:58 AM9/12/12
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
> Sent: 12 September 2012 15:41
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2899521&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CBARNEY&accessmethod=0
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:�� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history:���� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
> Sent: 12 September 2012 15:41
>
> Regarding John Berney, Esq., of Reedham, Norfolk (husband of Margaret
> Wentworth), in your post you assign a death date of 22 October 1527
> for him based on an unsourced online genealogical database.
>
> On the other hand, Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History
> of Norfolk 11 (1810): 121-132 assigns him death date of 27 October
> Regarding John Berney, Esq., of Reedham, Norfolk (husband of Margaret
> Wentworth), in your post you assign a death date of 22 October 1527
> for him based on an unsourced online genealogical database.
>
> On the other hand, Blomefield, Essay towards a Topographical History
> 1536, based on an inquisition post mortem for John Berney which he
> quotes at length. I used that date in my books. Normally Blomefield
> would be a reliable source to use. But as we will see below,
> Blomefield may have misdated the inquisition.
The IPM of John Barney was in 20 Hen 8:
> quotes at length. I used that date in my books. Normally Blomefield
> would be a reliable source to use. But as we will see below,
> Blomefield may have misdated the inquisition.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2899521&CATLN=7&Highlight=%2CBARNEY&accessmethod=0
Best wishes
Andrew
--
Andrew Millard - A.R.M...@durham.ac.uk
Bodimeade genealogy:�� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/Bodimeade/
My family history:���� http://community.dur.ac.uk/a.r.millard/genealogy/
GenUKI Middx + London: http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/ + ../LND/
Douglas Richardson
Sep 12, 2012, 11:16:11 AM9/12/12
to
Dear Newsgroup ~
I just checked Blomefield's account of Stokesby, Norfolk and he gives the following two presentations to the church there:
1522, William Palfreyman, by John Berney, Esq.
1532, Mr. Sim. Risby, A.M. by Margaret Berney, widow.
The above information confirms that John Berney, Esq., was living in 1522, and that his wife, Margaret, was definitely a widow in 1532.
For the Stokesby presentations above, see Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. History of Norfolk, 11 (1810): 249–251, which is available at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78792
I just checked Blomefield's account of Stokesby, Norfolk and he gives the following two presentations to the church there:
1522, William Palfreyman, by John Berney, Esq.
1532, Mr. Sim. Risby, A.M. by Margaret Berney, widow.
The above information confirms that John Berney, Esq., was living in 1522, and that his wife, Margaret, was definitely a widow in 1532.
For the Stokesby presentations above, see Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. History of Norfolk, 11 (1810): 249–251, which is available at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78792
Douglas Richardson
Sep 12, 2012, 11:57:59 AM9/12/12
to Douglas Richardson, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Dear Andrew ~
Thank you for your prompt response. Much appreciated.
Checking further on my end, I've determined that elsewhere in Blomefield's work, he cites the same inquisition post mortem for John Berney, Esq. Under his account of Shipdam and Thorp, Norfolk, he there assigns the inquisition the date of 20 Henry VIII, not 28 Henry VIII as in his account of Reedham, Norfolk. Here is what he says under Shipdam and Thorp:
"By an inquisition, taken November 7, in the 20th of Henry VIII. John Berney, Esq. was found to die seized of it October 27, ao. 19th of that King, held (as was found) of the manor of Saham, in Norfolk, by fealty, and 3s. rent per ann. and John was his son and heir, aged 18." END OF QUOTE.
The above information is taken from Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 10 (1809): 243–249, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78668&strquery=John%20Berney
Given Andrew's helpful confirmation that John Berney's IPM is indeed dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9], we can conclude that John Berney died 27 October 1527, not 1536.
This also means that John Berney's son and heir, John, was born about 1510, he being aged 18 in 1528 (the date of the inquisition).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
P.S. Blomefield gives two different indications as to the year of John Berney's death. When quoting the inquisition of John Berney in his Reedham account, he states that John Berney died "27th of October past." That would place John Berney's death in 1528. But in the Shipdam and Thorp account, he says the inquisition states that John Berney died "October 27, ao. 19th of that King" which would be the previous year, 1527. I assume the latter date is the correct version.
On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:15:45 AM UTC-6, MILLARD A.R. wrote:
>
> The IPM of John Barney was in 20 Hen 8:
>
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue>
>
Thank you for your prompt response. Much appreciated.
Checking further on my end, I've determined that elsewhere in Blomefield's work, he cites the same inquisition post mortem for John Berney, Esq. Under his account of Shipdam and Thorp, Norfolk, he there assigns the inquisition the date of 20 Henry VIII, not 28 Henry VIII as in his account of Reedham, Norfolk. Here is what he says under Shipdam and Thorp:
"By an inquisition, taken November 7, in the 20th of Henry VIII. John Berney, Esq. was found to die seized of it October 27, ao. 19th of that King, held (as was found) of the manor of Saham, in Norfolk, by fealty, and 3s. rent per ann. and John was his son and heir, aged 18." END OF QUOTE.
The above information is taken from Blomefield, Essay towards a Topog. Hist. of Norfolk 10 (1809): 243–249, which may be viewed at the following weblink:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=78668&strquery=John%20Berney
Given Andrew's helpful confirmation that John Berney's IPM is indeed dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9], we can conclude that John Berney died 27 October 1527, not 1536.
This also means that John Berney's son and heir, John, was born about 1510, he being aged 18 in 1528 (the date of the inquisition).
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
On Wednesday, September 12, 2012 9:15:45 AM UTC-6, MILLARD A.R. wrote:
>
> The IPM of John Barney was in 20 Hen 8:
>
> http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue>
>
smith....@gmail.com
Sep 12, 2012, 8:12:42 PM9/12/12
to
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1386-1421/member/berney-sir-robert-1365-1415
Doug
Brad Verity
Sep 13, 2012, 5:19:07 PM9/13/12
to
On Sep 12, 8:57 am, Douglas Richardson <royalances...@msn.com> wrote:
> Given Andrew's helpful confirmation that John Berney's IPM is indeed dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9], we can conclude that John Berney died 27 October 1527, not 1536.
>
> This also means that John Berney's son and heir, John, was born about 1510, he being aged 18 in 1528 (the date of the inquisition).
Douglas,
> Given Andrew's helpful confirmation that John Berney's IPM is indeed dated 20 Henry VIII [1528-9], we can conclude that John Berney died 27 October 1527, not 1536.
>
> This also means that John Berney's son and heir, John, was born about 1510, he being aged 18 in 1528 (the date of the inquisition).
Thank you for taking the time to clear that up. My one concern with
the new birthdate is chronology. John Berney was born in 1510 - when
his maternal grandmother was only 36 years old. I have Anne Tyrell,
wife of Sir Roger Wentworth of Codham Hall, born in 1474. That family
is still skeletal in my database, and I haven't examined it closely.
Do I have the correct birthdate for Anne? Do you have any source for
her birthdate?
Thanks & Cheers, ------Brad
John Higgins
Sep 26, 2012, 12:22:51 AM9/26/12
to
On Sep 10, 3:36 pm, Brad Verity <royaldesc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> While researching the ancestry of Margaret Berney, wife of Edward
> Paston of Appleton Hall (ancestors of Princess Diana), I made use of
> the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which has 3 generations of
> Margaret's Berney ancestors on page 412 (sub Jennings).
>
> A little further research on my own showed that the Berney accounts in
> PA3/RPA had quite a few errors & omissions, so I figured I'd take a
> break from lines of descent and do one of my PA3/RPA Corrections
> posts.
>
> Let's start with the earliest Berney generation: Margaret Wentworth is
> married, as his 2nd wife, to John Berney, son of John Berney of
> Reedham, Norfolk & Elizabeth, dau of Osbert Mundeford of Hockford.
> John Berney's first wife was Alice, dau of Richard Southwell of
> Woodrising, and John died 27 October 1536. By 2nd wife Margaret
> Wentworth he had 2 sons, and she was living in 1532. Almost
> everything in the account contains error.
>
> 1) Terry Booth, in a post he made to the newsgroup last year, showed
> that no daughter of Osbert Mountford married a John Berney but rather
> Elizabeth, the widow of Thomas Berney (died 1441) married, as her 2nd
> husband, Osbert Mountford. Nor was this Elizabeth the mother of the
> John Berney who married Margaret Wentworh:http://groups.google.com/group/soc.genealogy.medieval/msg/bf237377408...
> While researching the ancestry of Margaret Berney, wife of Edward
> Paston of Appleton Hall (ancestors of Princess Diana), I made use of
> the 2004 edition of Plantagenet Ancestry, which has 3 generations of
> Margaret's Berney ancestors on page 412 (sub Jennings).
>
> A little further research on my own showed that the Berney accounts in
> PA3/RPA had quite a few errors & omissions, so I figured I'd take a
> break from lines of descent and do one of my PA3/RPA Corrections
> posts.
>
> Let's start with the earliest Berney generation: Margaret Wentworth is
> married, as his 2nd wife, to John Berney, son of John Berney of
> Reedham, Norfolk & Elizabeth, dau of Osbert Mundeford of Hockford.
> John Berney's first wife was Alice, dau of Richard Southwell of
> Woodrising, and John died 27 October 1536. By 2nd wife Margaret
> Wentworth he had 2 sons, and she was living in 1532. Almost
> everything in the account contains error.
>
> 1) Terry Booth, in a post he made to the newsgroup last year, showed
> that no daughter of Osbert Mountford married a John Berney but rather
> Elizabeth, the widow of Thomas Berney (died 1441) married, as her 2nd
> husband, Osbert Mountford. Nor was this Elizabeth the mother of the
>
> 2) Alice Southwell was not the first wife of the John Berney who
> married Margaret Wentworth (who appears to have been his sole wife),
> but was rather his mother (or possibly step-mother). Per a well-
> researched website on the Berneys, the IPM for John Berney of Reedham
> (the father of the John who married Margaret Wentworth) was taken on
> 22 November 1506. John the father died on 6 January 1506, leaving a
> wife Alice, and a son and heir John who was aged 21 and more (so born
> by 1485):http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/b/o/l/Andrew-N-BOLS/WEBSIT...
> 2) Alice Southwell was not the first wife of the John Berney who
> married Margaret Wentworth (who appears to have been his sole wife),
> but was rather his mother (or possibly step-mother). Per a well-
> researched website on the Berneys, the IPM for John Berney of Reedham
> (the father of the John who married Margaret Wentworth) was taken on
> 22 November 1506. John the father died on 6 January 1506, leaving a
> wife Alice, and a son and heir John who was aged 21 and more (so born
>
> The website has this Alice as Alice Southwell & the mother of John.
> That may not be accurate, and further research is warranted. There
> was a Sir Richard Southwell of Woodrising (1502-1564), who has a bio
> in ODNB, and who was son of Francis Southwell of Wymondham (d. 1512).
> It seems likely that Alice, the wife of John Berney of Reedham (d.
> 1506) was of the family of Francis Southwell, but I don't know how she
> fits in exactly.
>
[snip]
> The website has this Alice as Alice Southwell & the mother of John.
> That may not be accurate, and further research is warranted. There
> was a Sir Richard Southwell of Woodrising (1502-1564), who has a bio
> in ODNB, and who was son of Francis Southwell of Wymondham (d. 1512).
> It seems likely that Alice, the wife of John Berney of Reedham (d.
> 1506) was of the family of Francis Southwell, but I don't know how she
> fits in exactly.
>
A couple of belated points on this useful discussion of the Berney
family:
1) Colin Richmond, in his work "The Paston family in the Fifteenth
Century: The First Phase" (1990, cited in Terry Booth's post mentioned
above) gives the following sequence for the Berneys, with marriages as
indicated:
1. Thomas Berney (d. 1441), m. Elizabeth Clipsby (who m. (2) Osbert
Mundeford)
[the Clipsby identification is apparently supported by the 1563
Norfolk vistation and a reference in Blomefield's Norfolk]
2. John Berney (d. 1473), m. Elizabeth Yelverton (sister of William,
who is mentioned in John Berney's will as his "brother" [i.e., brother-
in-law])
3. John Berney, m. Alice Southwell [last generation covered by
Richmond]
2) With respect to Alice Southwell, two different published editions
of the 1563 visitation of Norfolk identify her parents as Richard
Southwell of Woodrising and Amy Wichingham. She was thus a sister of
the Francis Southwell whom you mention above. There is potential for
confusion here, as she apparently had a sister Anne or Amy married to
Ralph Berney of Wichingham - a different line of the Berney family.
3) Although several secondary sources (including Blomefield and also
Wotton's and Betham's baronetages - all cited by RPA) say that one
John Berney married (1) Alice Southwell and (2) Margaret Wentworth, as
reported in RPA, the visitation pedigree 9also cited by RPA) says
there were two John Berneys, each with one wife - and the information
on their wills in the database you cited seems to clearly support
this. Thanks for pointing this out - along with the other
corrections.
Darrell E. Larocque
Jul 27, 2022, 1:43:46 PM7/27/22
to
Normally this line is much discussed from the parents of John Berney, husband of Margaret Wentworth and later because of her Magna Carta ancestry. Not discussed nearly as much is the complete mess that Blomefield and Wotton leave in their wake with an amazing amount of inaccuracies starting from Henry Berney/Catherine Harsike/Harsick of Berney's Inn, Norfolk.
I am trying my best to comb through the notes given from ANDREW-N-BOLS AKA the "Berney website", and he clearly had access to wills and other documents that are not available online. If any of you are still working on the Berney of Reedham line, please let me know. This is what I am working with at the moment (in pencil):
Henry Berney m. Catherine Harsike, d. of Sir John Harsike (per Blomefield)
Richard Berney m. Alice de Edgefield (their son John specifically mentions them both as his parents in his will)
John Berney m. Sarah Bateman d. of Bartholomew Bateman (per Blomefield)
Thomas Berney m. Margaret de Reedham, d. of Sir William de Reedham and Margaret Caston, d. of Sir Robert Caston.
John Berney m. Isabel Heveningham, d. of Sir John Heveningham (per Blomefield)
Thomas Berney m. Elizabeth Clipsby, d. of John Clipsby, Esq. (per Blomefield)
John Berney m. Catherine Mundeford (per Blomefield) ??? This one is bizarre...
John Berney m. Alice (Southwell?)
John Berney m. Margaret Wentworth
I am REALLY hoping to get some feedback... the Clipsby pedigree is worse than this!
Darrell
Darrell E. Larocque
Jul 27, 2022, 11:08:27 PM7/27/22
to
[1] From Hundred of Wayland: CASTON
"Holdich's arms. Berney, Heveningham, and Gissing.
Caston quartering Berney.
Berney with an annulet sab.
Caston, gul. a chevron between three eagles displayed arg. The same with a label az. The same with a mullet sab."
Based upon the timeline, these arms must represent John Berney who married Isabel Heveningham, for:
John Berney, s. of Thomas Berney and Margaret de Reedham, heiress of Sir William de Reedham and Margaret Caston, who m. Isabel Heveningham, d. of Sir John Heveningham (1313-1375) and Joan Gissing, d. and heiress of Sir Thomas Gissing.
Francis Blomefield, 'Hundred of Wayland: Caston', in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 2 (London, 1805), pp. 282-286. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol2/pp282-286 [accessed 28 July 2022].
[2] From Freebridge Hundred: WIGENHALE ST MARY MAGDALEN
"And about the church, the arms of Kervile, Scales, Berney, Gissing, Heveningham, Lord Lovell, Bovile, and a griffin segreant."
These arms represent half of the above arms as noted in [1]. I have yet to identify how the other families fit, but this is a major clue which could lead to a breakthrough.
Francis Blomefield, 'Freebridge Hundred: Wigenhale St. Mary Magdalen', in An Essay Towards A Topographical History of the County of Norfolk: Volume 9 (London, 1808), pp. 168-176. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/topographical-hist-norfolk/vol9/pp168-176 [accessed 28 July 2022].
Darrell
0 new messages