Eleanor de Vitre
The...@aol.com
Dear Rosie,
Seems sometimes the harder we seek, the hard it gets.
This does raise some additional interesting questions, incl. whether or
not the charter in question is valid. We still have the LV entry concerning
'Gundre comitissa' yet unresolved, and now we get 'alia Alianora'.....?
One observation, and one theory that result from this new find:
1. At first I thought, 'Eleanor de Viterio' -
could this really be Eleanor de VITRY [not
Vitre] ?
In fact this was not the case. The derivation
is evidently correct, 'de Viterio' = from
Vitre [Lat. VITREIUM].
Vitry, or Vitry-sur-Seine, evidently was a
Roman foundation following a victor of C.
Iulius Caesar ca. 52 B.C. :
Victoriacum -> Vitriacum [= Vitry]
~ The observation that results from this
information: K. Keats-Rohan, in Domesday
Descendants, identified 'Andreas de
Vitriaco', a tenant of Robert of Mortain
in Cornwall recorded in 1086, as Andre
de Vitre, later son-in-law of Robert and
ancestors of the later seigneurs de
Vitre. Therefore, either:
A. This identification is in error, if
the Latin text is correct - the
Domesday tenant would actually be
'Andre de Vitry' , OR
B. The use of the designation
'de Vitriaco' is in error, and the
scribe should have called the tenant
'Andreas de Viterio' .
2. Given the newly-found charter, I would suggest
that Eleanor de Vitre, wife of William, Earl
of Salisbury by 1179, is not identical to the
Eleanor elsewhere identified as wife of Msrs.
Paynel, Crespin and Malesmains.
Unless the 1174x1179 charter is a forgery
(certainly not a mere error), it would appear
that one Eleanor de Vitre was a daughter of
Robert III de Vitre; the other, possibly the
daughter of another member of that family.
Hope this may yet be helpful....
Cheers,
John *
* John P. Ravilious
ADRIANC...@aol.com
At first it looked to me as though the date of Gilbert Crespin (of Tilliers)
death must be wrong, but CP Vol XII/i p 766 shows he was about to depart for
Jerusalem on 2 Jan 1189/90. Also CP has, what would seem to be Eleanor's
first husband, William Paynel of Hambye d 1184, so he also does not fit in
with the date of the Canfotrd grant.
Charter no 4 confirms the grant of Canford. The witness Ranulph treasurer of
Salisbury was appointed in c1193 (Per "The Canons of Salisbury"). Vera
London has it dated "22 Oct. 1189 x 12 Apr. 1190 or 20 Apr. x 28/9 May 1193",
so it must be at the end of this time frame, no help here.
I note that CP was aware of the grant of Canford to Bradenstoke (see CP p 378
note m). This states that a witness was "Walter, my son", Walter does not
appear in the Bradenstoke charter no 1, but is in the other copy charter no
358. Perhaps the other witnesses in 358 will help in confirming the date?
There does seem to be something wrong here?
regards,
Adrian
Rosie Bevan wrote,
> Going through charters in the Bradenstoke cartulary today, I note that
> there is one (assuming the charter is not a forgery) reliably dated between
> 1174 -79 naming Eleanor de Vitre as wife of William, earl of Salisbury.
>
> 1.[Monday 5 X 10 June 1174 X 1179] Grant in alms by William earl of
> Salisbury, for the love of God and the health of his soul and the soul of
> Eleanor de Viterio his countess, and the souls of Patrick his father, Ela
> his mother, and Patrick his brother, of the church of Canford for the
> support of the canons and the maintenance of hospitality. Seal. Morters by
> Domfront in Passais, Mon before St Barnabas, after the death of Richard of
> Candover. Witnesses Ralph de Somery, Wm. of Newmarket, Pet. Blunt.
> [Vera London, ed. 'The Cartulary of Bradenstoke Priory', 1979. p.28]
>
> This charter is dated by 1179 by reason that the confirmation charter by
> Henry II (of the gift of Canford church), was witnesssed by Richard de
> Lucy
> who died in July 1179. Henry II himself died in 1189.
>
> While this would support the The Book of Lacock in that Ela was born about
> 1188 as per Peter Sutton's post, it conflicts with the information that
> Gilbert de Crespin, Eleanor's second husband was
> supposed to have died in 1190 and Eleanor long outlived earl William and
> married fourthly Gilbert Malmains, who is recorded in CP as holding her
> inheritance and dower. Incidentally Nicholas Malmains witnessed some of
> Ela's charters as a widow. He was grandson of Gilbert Malmains.
>
> I'm baffled by the conflict in dates and information. Is there a simple
> explanation for this do you think? Perhaps a confusion between two separate
> ladies?
>
> Rosie
>
>
>
Chris Phillips
That's interesting. I think your Andreas is actually in Domesday People,
where he is said to be from Vitré, dept. Ille-et-Vilaine (Britanny). More of
the same family appear in Domesday Descendants, as "de Vitriaco", seigneurs
of Vitré, including Robert II and Robert III (d.1173).
"Orbis Latinus" lists several places called Victoriacum (or Vitriacum),
which it renders as Vitry.
So is Viterio just a guess by a scribe who knew the French, but not the
correct Latin form of the place name? Does it cast any doubt on the
authenticity of the charter (which would at least be a way out of the
chronological difficulty)?
Chris Phillips
Chris Phillips
ADRIANC...@aol.com
raised by Rosie, i.e. that the marriage appears to have happened in or before
1179, yet CP records her first marriage to William Paynel, of Hambye who died
in 1184 and second to Gilbert Crespin, lord of Tilleres who died 1190, would
be solved if these two other marriages were incorrect.
I have been looking at William Paynel. CP Vol XI p 378 gives the authority
for this as "Early Yorkshire Charters" (ed. Clay), vol vi, p. 22 - does
anybody have access to this?
The family of Paynel (including the Paynel of Hambye, The Cotentin; Normandy)
are discussed in CP Vol X p 99, but surprisingly, I cannot see a ref. to a
William dying in 1184.
William, son of Ralph Paynel, inherited the lordship of Hambye (which
descended in the family until 15th century) as well as many English holdings.
He is shown as having two marriages: m1 d of William son of Wimund and
sister of Robert d'Avranches and m2 to Avice d&coh of William Meschin by whom
he had an only daughter Alice. It would seem that after his death, before
1148, his English properties were left to this Alice, but his sons received
his French ones, his 2nd son received Hambye.
Two of his sons were (also given in the table of CP Vol IV page 317) Hugh
Paynel of Moutiers-Hubert: dead by 1180 m Nichole and ii. Fulk Paynel of
Hambye and Brehal, d. 1182 m Lesceline, Dame du Grippon: [d?] 1198. CP Vol X
p 320 gives Ralph II as heir of this Ralph of Hambye.
DD p 1057/8 states that William (-c1145x47) succeeded by 1124, gives his sons
by m1 as Hugh, Fulk, Thomas and John (and possibly a dau Gertrude). Hugh and
Fulk did inherit small portions of land in England with Les Moutiers-Hubert
in Normandy going to Hugh, and Hambye to Fulk
So there does not seem any room for the William of Hambye who died in 1184?
Adrian
Chris Phillips
> DD p 1057/8 states that William (-c1145x47) succeeded by 1124, gives his
sons
> by m1 as Hugh, Fulk, Thomas and John (and possibly a dau Gertrude). Hugh
and
> Fulk did inherit small portions of land in England with Les
Moutiers-Hubert
> in Normandy going to Hugh, and Hambye to Fulk
>
> So there does not seem any room for the William of Hambye who died in
1184?
I don't know how the chronology works, but is it possible that William would
be a son of Fulk? According to Keats-Rohan he had two sons of this name -
his successor at his death in "c.1182/83" and a younger one [Domesday
Descendants p.1056].
Chris Phillips
ADRIANC...@aol.com
I wrote;
> > DD p 1057/8 states that William (-c1145x47) succeeded by 1124, gives his
> sons
> > by m1 as Hugh, Fulk, Thomas and John (and possibly a dau Gertrude). Hugh
> and
> > Fulk did inherit small portions of land in England with Les
> Moutiers-Hubert
> > in Normandy going to Hugh, and Hambye to Fulk
> >
> > So there does not seem any room for the William of Hambye who died in
> 1184?
>
Chris Phillips replied;
> I don't know how the chronology works, but is it possible that William would
> be a son of Fulk? According to Keats-Rohan he had two sons of this name -
> his successor at his death in "c.1182/83" and a younger one [Domesday
> Descendants p.1056].
>
>
>
>
Chris,
No, I don't think so, CP Vol X p 320 gives Ralph II as son of this Ralph of
Hambye, and presumably his heir as CP states from him descend the later
Paynels of Hambye.
regards,
Adrian
ADRIANC...@aol.com
ADRIANC...@aol.com writes:
Sorry, all the Ralph's in the above parragraph should read Fulk.
Adrian
Renia
Rosie Bevan
I have a copy of EYC vii handy.
Clay has William Paynel of Hambye as son and heir and successor of Fulk
Paynel d. by 1183 and Lesceline, da. of Hasculf de Subligny, afterwards
referred to as Dame du Grippon. William survived his father by a year or so,
and he and Eleanor de Vitre had a son who died 1188-89. This is partially in
accordance with K-R's interpretation under Paganel, Fulco II.on p.1056.
However she has no entry for this particular William probably because his
appearance in records is after her cut-off date of 1166.
This is what Clay says about William Paynel [EYC vii, p.21]
"WILLIAM PAYNEL, eldest son of Fulk Paynel. The charter which he issued to
the abbey of Hambye shows that he had succeeded hif father in Drax, Bingham
and Garthorpe and in Hambye; and the charters he issued to Henry de Fontenay
and Malton priory show his interest in Amotherby, par. Appleton-le-Street.
The Pipe Roll evidence evidence given below shows that he inherited his
father's interest in Barton-le-Street, and in Broughton, co. Lincoln. He
married Eleanor de Vitre. In Nov 1177 Andrew de Vitre gave to William son of
Fulk Paynel, with his sister in free marriage, that moiety of his land in
Normandy that was jointly divided by Fulk Paynel and himself, which he had
chosen in Andrew's manors of Ryes, Trungy, and Ducy [all in Calvados], with
a yearly rent of 20 li. from his manor of Cooling, Suffolk; among the
witnesses being William Paynel, archdeacon [of Avranches], Fulk Paynel, and
Fulk Paynel the younger [evidently William's father and two brothers].
William Paynel and Eleanor his wife gave their moiety of the church of Ryes
to the abbey of Longues in the Bessin [Their gift was confirmed by Henry II,
1185-89 - Delisle and Berger, Recueil des Actes de Henri II, ii, no. 757].
Eleanor married secondly, Gilbert de Tillieres who died in the Holy Land in
1190, leaving issue; thirdly William of Salisbury who died in 1196, leaving
an only daughter; and fourthly Gilbert Malmains; she died 1231-33 and was
buried in the abbey of Mondaye near Bayeux [Rot. Scacc. Norm. ii, p. xlivn
where there is a long note on Eleanor and her connections. See also
F.M.Powicke, Loss of Normandy, p.516.]"
Clay goes on to explain that William left a 3 year old son who was in the
king's custody but his custody and revenue of the lands appear to have been
granted to William Vavasour. The boy evidently died in 1188 when the lands
passed to William's younger brother Fulk.
Eleanor de Vitre had a son and two daughters by Gilbert de Tillieres -
Gilbert VI, who died s.p., Juliana and Joan. Juliana married Baldwin Rastel
and became Lady of Tillieres on her brother's death. Juliane left a daughter
Hilaria who was married to Sir James de Bovelingham who became lord of
Tillieres in her right. They appear not to have issue. Eleanor de Vitry made
a donation for her daughter Juliana's soul at the abbey of St Martin at
Mondaye. Joan, the younger daughter, married Thomas Malmains (Eleanor de
Vitre's stepson by her fourth husband). King John granted the manor of
Burton Latimer to Thomas Malmains in the right of Joan his wife on 29 Aug
1216 [Rot. Pat. ed. T.D Hardy 1835 p.195 ; M. Jackson Crispin, Falaise Roll,
p.188 ; VCH Northants, v.3, p.181/182.]
Below is a reconstruction of Eleanor's immediate descendants
1.Eleanor de Vitre b.c.1165 d.1231/33
+ 1.William Paynel d.1184
2. William Paynel c1181-1188 s.p.
+ 2.Gilbert V de Tillieres b. c 1185 d.1190
2.Gilbert VI de Tillieres d.s.p.1222
+ da. of Phillipe, Lord of Creully
2. Juliana, Lady of Tillieres b.c 1187
+ Baldwin de Rastel d. by 1227
3. Hilaria, Lady of Tillieres d. by. 1247 d.s.p.?
+ Sir James de Bovelingham d. by 1247
2. Joan de Tillieres b. c. 1189 d.1221
+ Thomas Malmains (stepson of Eleanor de Vitre) d.1219
3. Nicholas Malmains b.1204 d. by 1240
+ Beatrice
4. Ela Malmains
+ Robert de Plessy
3. Hilaria Malmains (had lands in Burton Latimer, Northants.
as a marriage portion. These had been originally granted to Alan de Dinant
by Henry I)
+ Walter de Godardville
+ 3. William, earl of Salisbury d.1196
2. Ela, Countess of Salisbury d.1261 Had issue
+ William Longespee d.1226
+ 4. Gilbert Malmains d.1217
The fact that Eleanor's marital life is so well documented and her families
are so intertwined, leads me to believe that the charter relating to the
gift of Canford church to Bradenstoke priory must be an amended copy. This
is because the gift was confirmed by Henry II before his death in 1189 at a
time when Eleanor was still married to Gilbert de Tillieres. It is possible
the original charter of gift mentioned the soul of William's countess
without actually naming her, and the monk rewriting/copying the charter
obligingly inserted the name of Ela's mother. This may indicate, as we might
expect, that William earl of Salisbury had a previous wife/wives. It also
makes one wonder how many other Bradenstoke charters were reinvented.....
Cheers
Rosie
> The problem of the marriage of Eleanor de Vitre to William Er of Salisbury
raised by Rosie, i.e. that the marriage appears to have happened in or
before 1179, yet CP records her first marriage to William Paynel, of Hambye
who died in 1184 and second to Gilbert Crespin, lord of Tilleres who died
1190, would be solved if these two other marriages were incorrect.
I have been looking at William Paynel. CP Vol XI p 378 gives the authority
for this as "Early Yorkshire Charters" (ed. Clay), vol vi, p. 22 - does
anybody have access to this?
The family of Paynel (including the Paynel of Hambye, The Cotentin;
Normandy) are discussed in CP Vol X p 99, but surprisingly, I cannot see a
ref. to a William dying in 1184.
William, son of Ralph Paynel, inherited the lordship of Hambye (which
descended in the family until 15th century) as well as many English
holdings.
He is shown as having two marriages: m1 d of William son of Wimund and
sister of Robert d'Avranches and m2 to Avice d&coh of William Meschin by
whom he had an only daughter Alice. It would seem that after his death,
before 1148, his English properties were left to this Alice, but his sons
received his French ones, his 2nd son received Hambye.
Two of his sons were (also given in the table of CP Vol IV page 317) Hugh
Paynel of Moutiers-Hubert: dead by 1180 m Nichole and ii. Fulk Paynel of
Hambye and Brehal, d. 1182 m Lesceline, Dame du Grippon: [d?] 1198. CP Vol X
p 320 gives Ralph II as heir of this Ralph of Hambye.
DD p 1057/8 states that William (-c1145x47) succeeded by 1124, gives his
Cristopher Nash
[SNIP]
>The fact that Eleanor's marital life is so well documented and her families
>are so intertwined
With gratitude for Rosie's valauble information, but having in the
most recent gatecrashing episode failed to receive a number of
postings, I may well have missed the obvious and hope people will
PMJI here -- but has the question been resolved as to which are the
parents of Eleanor de Vitré?
(I'm just following up on the question raised e.g. by the absence of
mention in DD of an Eleanor among the children of Robert II and Emma
de La Guerche, most commonly given -- old Turton apart - as her
parents. Interest also arises re Hawise/Havise, w. of Robert de
Ferrières, 1st E of Derby, and frequently given with Robert II de
Vitré as ch. of Andreas de Vitré, though her anc. is questioned in
DD, 459.)
Cheers,
Cris
--