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Complete Peerage Correction: Camoys
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johnmw...@gmail.com
Apr 22, 2015, 9:44:06 AM4/22/15
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Dear all,
The earliest members of the Camoys family to appear in Complete Peerage are:
Ralph de Camoys, son and heir of Ralph de Camoys (d. 1259), by Asceline, heiress of Torpel, Northants, was aged 45 and more at his father's death. Constable of Pevensey Castle 18 July 1264. He was summoned to Parliament 24 Dec. (1264) 49 Hen. III, by writ directed Radulfo de Cameys. Such summons, having issued in rebellion, should not, however, constitute a peerage dignity. He died before 11 Mar. (1276/7) 5 Edw. I, when the writ for his Inq. p. m. is dated.
Complete Peerage, vol. 2 (1912), 506.
It can be shown on chronological grounds that Ralph de Camoys, the younger, was not the son of Asceline de Torpel, but she was actually his wife.
Looking at the family of Torpel, from various sources, it is possible to construct an outline pedigree:
Roger de Torpel I (d. 1176) = Asceline de Waterville (d. aft 1216)
I
Roger de Torpel II (d. 1225) =
I
Roger de Torpel III (d. 1229) = Mabel (d. 1276)
I I
William de Torpel (dsp. 1242) Asceline de Torpel = Ralph de Camoys (d. 1277)
I
John de Camoys (b. ca. 1249)
Roger Torpel III was under age at the death of his father in 1225, but already married, and it is not clear whether he became of age before he died in 1229. He left, by Mabel his wife, two children; William who died under age in 1242 and a daughter and heiress to the Torpel barony, Asceline. I estimate that Asceline was born between 1224 and 1229, so she can hardly have been the mother of Ralph de Camoys the younger who was probably born about 1215 (aged 45 or more in 1259). Asceline was unmarried in 1242 when the king committed her custody and marriage to Ralph Neville, bishop of Chichester. Asceline was the mother of John de Camoys who was born about 1249 (aged 27 in 1276).
Regards,
John
Source materials below [anything in square brackets added by me].
-------------------------------------------
13 April 1220, Cambridgeshire. To the sheriff of Cambridgeshire. Roger of Torpel [II] has made fine with the king for rendering his relief due from the lands formerly of Ascelina de Waterville, his mother, in Hinxton, namely the sixth part of a barony, which falls to Roger by inheritance and which Ascelina held of the king in chief, and he has given the king surety for this fine at the Exchequer. Order to cause Roger to have full seisin without delay of the lands with appurtenances in Hinxton that she held of the king in chief and, similarly, of all other lands that he took into the king's hand because she held in chief, saving the right of the lords of the fee. He is also to inquire diligently by the oath of trustworthy and law-worthy men of the neighbourhood whether Ascelina held the land of Hinxton of the king by the service of the sixth part of a barony or by a greater service, and, once he has taken the inquisition, he is without delay to cause H. de Burgh, justiciar, and the king's council to know under his seal and the seals of those by whom the inquisition was taken.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 4 Henry III, No. 130.
16 October 1225, Northamptonshire. For the abbot of Peterborough. To the sheriff of Northamptonshire. The abbot of Peterborough has made fine with the king by two palfreys for having in his hand and in his custody, until Roger [III], son and heir of Roger of Torpel [II], comes of age, the lands with appurtenances formerly of the same Roger which he held from the abbot, if it will be established by the inquisition that the king ordered to be taken concerning the land that the same Roger held from the king in chief, that he holds them by knight service, namely so that the abbot is to render £40 at
the Exchequer each year for as long as the aforesaid lands will be in his hand and in his custody, namely £20 at Easter and £20 at Michaelmas. Order that, having accepted security from the abbot for rendering the two aforesaid palfreys to the king at Hilary forthcoming in the tenth year and for rendering the aforesaid £40 each year at the Exchequer at the aforesaid terms, as aforesaid, he is to cause him to have full seisin of the aforesaid lands with their appurtenances in his bailiwick without delay, saving to the aforesaid Roger, son and heir of the abovesaid Roger of Torpel, the land that the king has assigned to him for his sustenance and which his father gave to him by his charter when he married his wife with the assent and will of his father.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 9 Henry III, No. 358.
1 December 1226, For Roger of Torpel. To the sheriff of Northamptonshire. Roger of Torpel [III], son and heir of Roger of Torpel [II], has made fine with the king by two palfreys for having in his hand and his custody, until he comes of age, all lands with appurtenances that he ought to hold of the abbot of Peterborough. The same Roger is to render £40 each year from the aforesaid lands at the Exchequer until he comes of age, namely £20 at Easter and £20 at Michaelmas. Order that, having accepted security from Roger for rendering the aforesaid two palfreys and the aforesaid £40 each year at the abovesaid terms, as aforesaid, he is to cause him to have full seisin without delay of all of the aforesaid lands in his bailiwick.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 11 Henry III, No. 25.
28 July 1229, Pro L. capellano.-- Rex concessit L. decano Sancti Martini Londonie feodum dimidii militis cum pertinenciis quod Rogerus de Thorpel, filius et heres Rogeri de Thorpel, tenuit de rege in capite in Henxtinton, habenduni et tenendum usque ad legitimam etatem heredis ipsius Rogeri. In cujus
etc. Teste rege, apud Sanctum Neotum, xxviij die Julii.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry III, vol. 2, 1225-1232 (1903), 260.
6 September 1229, Grant to Ralph II, bishop of Chichester, the chancellor, and his assigns of the custody of the lands and heirs of Roger son of Roger de Thorpel with the marriage of the said heirs, saving to Luke, dean of St. Martin's, London, the land which the said Roger held in Henxton, and which the said Luke has of the king's bail until the majority of the said heirs.
Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 99.
17 October 1231, Concerning scutages due to the king from several people, to be collected by their hand. It is written under the same form to: the sheriff of Sussex for the bishop of Chichester that he may collect his scutage by his hand, so that he answers at the Exchequer without term. the sheriff of Northamptonshire for the same, concerning collecting scutage by his hand from the knights' fees that the son and heir of Roger of Torpel, who is in his custody, ought to hold from the abbot of Peterborough in chief etc., and concerning the knights' fees that the son and heir of Brian de Mare, who is in his custody, ought to hold from the abbot of Peterborough, and that the abbot holds of the king in chief. the sheriff of Lincolnshire for the same bishop, concerning the scutage etc. from the knights' fees that are held of the wardships which are in his hand, so that he answers etc.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 15 Henry III, No. 331.
4 May 1233, Grant to the Ralph, bishop of Cycestre, the chancellor, and his assigns, of the custody of the lands of Roger Torpel [III] with the marriage of his heirs and of Mabel late the wife of the said Roger, who held of the king in chief by military service, saving to L. archbishop of Dublin the custody of the land late of the said Roger in Hengston, which was granted to him before the date of the grant of the heirs and lands to the said bishop.
Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 177.
23 August 1242, To Mabel late the wife of Roger Torpell. She must well remember that the king gave the custody of the land and heirs of the said Roger de Torpell, with the marriage of the heirs, to R. bishop of Chichester, the chancellor, during the minority of the heirs, whereof, because William,
the eldest son and heir, has died, the king commands her, as she loves herself and her goods, not to eloign Acelota [Ascelina], sister and next heir of the said William, whom the chancellor committed to her ward to nurse, but to deliver her to the messenger of the said bishop bearing these letters with
letters of the bishop testifying that he is his messenger. Mandate to the sheriff of Norhampton, if she do not deliver her to the bishop or his messenger, to distrain her to do so by her lands and goods in that county.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry III, vol. 3: 1232-1247, (1906), 301.
Ralph de Cameys alias de Kameys, de Kamoys, the elder. Writ to the sheriff of Surrey, 6 June, 43 Hen. III [1259]. Inq. Monday after the Holy Trinity. Sir Ralph de Cameys the younger, knt., his son, age variously stated as 40, 40 and more, and over 45, is his heir.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 1, Henry III (1904), 121, No. 443.
Mabel de Torpel, alias Torpel. Writ, 21 Oct. 4 Edw. I [1276].
Kent. Inq. Thursday after All Saints, 4 Edw. I.
Esshe. The manor (extent given), held of the heirs of William de Mobray by service of 1/4 knight's fee in Esshe, and suit at the king's hundred (court) at Akstane, and it owes 24s. yearly for guard of the castle of Rochester; and the heir of Roger de Mobray of whom the above is held in chief is in the king's wardship, wherefore the king has the wardship of the above. John de Cameys, aged 27 and more, is her next heir.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 2, Edward I (1906), 109, No. 178.
3 December 1276, Order to the sheriff of Kent, escheator in that county, to deliver to John de Cameys, kinsman and heir of Mabel de Torpel, the manor of Esshe, which Mabel held of the heir of Roger de Munbray, a minor in the king's ward; the said John having done fealty.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, Edward I: 1272-1307 (1911), 76.
11 March 1277, Order to Ralph de Sandwico, the king's steward, to take into the king's hand the lands late of Ralph de Cameys, deceased, tenant in chief.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, Edward I: 1272-1307 (1911), 77.
The earliest members of the Camoys family to appear in Complete Peerage are:
Ralph de Camoys, son and heir of Ralph de Camoys (d. 1259), by Asceline, heiress of Torpel, Northants, was aged 45 and more at his father's death. Constable of Pevensey Castle 18 July 1264. He was summoned to Parliament 24 Dec. (1264) 49 Hen. III, by writ directed Radulfo de Cameys. Such summons, having issued in rebellion, should not, however, constitute a peerage dignity. He died before 11 Mar. (1276/7) 5 Edw. I, when the writ for his Inq. p. m. is dated.
Complete Peerage, vol. 2 (1912), 506.
It can be shown on chronological grounds that Ralph de Camoys, the younger, was not the son of Asceline de Torpel, but she was actually his wife.
Looking at the family of Torpel, from various sources, it is possible to construct an outline pedigree:
Roger de Torpel I (d. 1176) = Asceline de Waterville (d. aft 1216)
I
Roger de Torpel II (d. 1225) =
I
Roger de Torpel III (d. 1229) = Mabel (d. 1276)
I I
William de Torpel (dsp. 1242) Asceline de Torpel = Ralph de Camoys (d. 1277)
I
John de Camoys (b. ca. 1249)
Roger Torpel III was under age at the death of his father in 1225, but already married, and it is not clear whether he became of age before he died in 1229. He left, by Mabel his wife, two children; William who died under age in 1242 and a daughter and heiress to the Torpel barony, Asceline. I estimate that Asceline was born between 1224 and 1229, so she can hardly have been the mother of Ralph de Camoys the younger who was probably born about 1215 (aged 45 or more in 1259). Asceline was unmarried in 1242 when the king committed her custody and marriage to Ralph Neville, bishop of Chichester. Asceline was the mother of John de Camoys who was born about 1249 (aged 27 in 1276).
Regards,
John
Source materials below [anything in square brackets added by me].
-------------------------------------------
13 April 1220, Cambridgeshire. To the sheriff of Cambridgeshire. Roger of Torpel [II] has made fine with the king for rendering his relief due from the lands formerly of Ascelina de Waterville, his mother, in Hinxton, namely the sixth part of a barony, which falls to Roger by inheritance and which Ascelina held of the king in chief, and he has given the king surety for this fine at the Exchequer. Order to cause Roger to have full seisin without delay of the lands with appurtenances in Hinxton that she held of the king in chief and, similarly, of all other lands that he took into the king's hand because she held in chief, saving the right of the lords of the fee. He is also to inquire diligently by the oath of trustworthy and law-worthy men of the neighbourhood whether Ascelina held the land of Hinxton of the king by the service of the sixth part of a barony or by a greater service, and, once he has taken the inquisition, he is without delay to cause H. de Burgh, justiciar, and the king's council to know under his seal and the seals of those by whom the inquisition was taken.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 4 Henry III, No. 130.
16 October 1225, Northamptonshire. For the abbot of Peterborough. To the sheriff of Northamptonshire. The abbot of Peterborough has made fine with the king by two palfreys for having in his hand and in his custody, until Roger [III], son and heir of Roger of Torpel [II], comes of age, the lands with appurtenances formerly of the same Roger which he held from the abbot, if it will be established by the inquisition that the king ordered to be taken concerning the land that the same Roger held from the king in chief, that he holds them by knight service, namely so that the abbot is to render £40 at
the Exchequer each year for as long as the aforesaid lands will be in his hand and in his custody, namely £20 at Easter and £20 at Michaelmas. Order that, having accepted security from the abbot for rendering the two aforesaid palfreys to the king at Hilary forthcoming in the tenth year and for rendering the aforesaid £40 each year at the Exchequer at the aforesaid terms, as aforesaid, he is to cause him to have full seisin of the aforesaid lands with their appurtenances in his bailiwick without delay, saving to the aforesaid Roger, son and heir of the abovesaid Roger of Torpel, the land that the king has assigned to him for his sustenance and which his father gave to him by his charter when he married his wife with the assent and will of his father.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 9 Henry III, No. 358.
1 December 1226, For Roger of Torpel. To the sheriff of Northamptonshire. Roger of Torpel [III], son and heir of Roger of Torpel [II], has made fine with the king by two palfreys for having in his hand and his custody, until he comes of age, all lands with appurtenances that he ought to hold of the abbot of Peterborough. The same Roger is to render £40 each year from the aforesaid lands at the Exchequer until he comes of age, namely £20 at Easter and £20 at Michaelmas. Order that, having accepted security from Roger for rendering the aforesaid two palfreys and the aforesaid £40 each year at the abovesaid terms, as aforesaid, he is to cause him to have full seisin without delay of all of the aforesaid lands in his bailiwick.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 11 Henry III, No. 25.
28 July 1229, Pro L. capellano.-- Rex concessit L. decano Sancti Martini Londonie feodum dimidii militis cum pertinenciis quod Rogerus de Thorpel, filius et heres Rogeri de Thorpel, tenuit de rege in capite in Henxtinton, habenduni et tenendum usque ad legitimam etatem heredis ipsius Rogeri. In cujus
etc. Teste rege, apud Sanctum Neotum, xxviij die Julii.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry III, vol. 2, 1225-1232 (1903), 260.
6 September 1229, Grant to Ralph II, bishop of Chichester, the chancellor, and his assigns of the custody of the lands and heirs of Roger son of Roger de Thorpel with the marriage of the said heirs, saving to Luke, dean of St. Martin's, London, the land which the said Roger held in Henxton, and which the said Luke has of the king's bail until the majority of the said heirs.
Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 99.
17 October 1231, Concerning scutages due to the king from several people, to be collected by their hand. It is written under the same form to: the sheriff of Sussex for the bishop of Chichester that he may collect his scutage by his hand, so that he answers at the Exchequer without term. the sheriff of Northamptonshire for the same, concerning collecting scutage by his hand from the knights' fees that the son and heir of Roger of Torpel, who is in his custody, ought to hold from the abbot of Peterborough in chief etc., and concerning the knights' fees that the son and heir of Brian de Mare, who is in his custody, ought to hold from the abbot of Peterborough, and that the abbot holds of the king in chief. the sheriff of Lincolnshire for the same bishop, concerning the scutage etc. from the knights' fees that are held of the wardships which are in his hand, so that he answers etc.
Calendar of Fine Rolls 15 Henry III, No. 331.
4 May 1233, Grant to the Ralph, bishop of Cycestre, the chancellor, and his assigns, of the custody of the lands of Roger Torpel [III] with the marriage of his heirs and of Mabel late the wife of the said Roger, who held of the king in chief by military service, saving to L. archbishop of Dublin the custody of the land late of the said Roger in Hengston, which was granted to him before the date of the grant of the heirs and lands to the said bishop.
Calendar of Charter Rolls, vol. 1, Henry III: 1226-1257 (1903), 177.
23 August 1242, To Mabel late the wife of Roger Torpell. She must well remember that the king gave the custody of the land and heirs of the said Roger de Torpell, with the marriage of the heirs, to R. bishop of Chichester, the chancellor, during the minority of the heirs, whereof, because William,
the eldest son and heir, has died, the king commands her, as she loves herself and her goods, not to eloign Acelota [Ascelina], sister and next heir of the said William, whom the chancellor committed to her ward to nurse, but to deliver her to the messenger of the said bishop bearing these letters with
letters of the bishop testifying that he is his messenger. Mandate to the sheriff of Norhampton, if she do not deliver her to the bishop or his messenger, to distrain her to do so by her lands and goods in that county.
Calendar of Patent Rolls, Henry III, vol. 3: 1232-1247, (1906), 301.
Ralph de Cameys alias de Kameys, de Kamoys, the elder. Writ to the sheriff of Surrey, 6 June, 43 Hen. III [1259]. Inq. Monday after the Holy Trinity. Sir Ralph de Cameys the younger, knt., his son, age variously stated as 40, 40 and more, and over 45, is his heir.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 1, Henry III (1904), 121, No. 443.
Mabel de Torpel, alias Torpel. Writ, 21 Oct. 4 Edw. I [1276].
Kent. Inq. Thursday after All Saints, 4 Edw. I.
Esshe. The manor (extent given), held of the heirs of William de Mobray by service of 1/4 knight's fee in Esshe, and suit at the king's hundred (court) at Akstane, and it owes 24s. yearly for guard of the castle of Rochester; and the heir of Roger de Mobray of whom the above is held in chief is in the king's wardship, wherefore the king has the wardship of the above. John de Cameys, aged 27 and more, is her next heir.
Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem, vol. 2, Edward I (1906), 109, No. 178.
3 December 1276, Order to the sheriff of Kent, escheator in that county, to deliver to John de Cameys, kinsman and heir of Mabel de Torpel, the manor of Esshe, which Mabel held of the heir of Roger de Munbray, a minor in the king's ward; the said John having done fealty.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, Edward I: 1272-1307 (1911), 76.
11 March 1277, Order to Ralph de Sandwico, the king's steward, to take into the king's hand the lands late of Ralph de Cameys, deceased, tenant in chief.
Calendar of Fine Rolls, vol. 1, Edward I: 1272-1307 (1911), 77.
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