William of England (d. 1120) and his children

[The...@aol.com]

Friday, 3 February, 2006

Hello All,

Among the charters of grants to Hereford published by
Dugdale in Monasticon Anglicanum, there is the following
(partial text only given below):

' Num. IV.
Carta Regis Henrici Primi, Donationem Radulfi de Limesi
confirmans.
[ Pat. 27 Edw. III, part. 1. m. 25. per Inspex.]

Hen. rex Angl. episcopo Lincolniae, et vicecomiti, et
omnibus baronibus et fidelibus suis, Francis et Anglis, de
Lincolnesira salutem. Sciatis me concessisse donationem
terrarum et omnium rerum illarum quas Radulfus de Limesia
dedit ecclesiae s. Mariae de Herefort in elemosinam, pro
animabus patris et matris meae, et fratris mei Willielmi
regis, et reliquorum antecessorum meorum; et pro meipso,
et pro uxore mea Matilda regina, et pro pueris nostris; et
pro Willielmo filio nostro, et uxore sua et filiis suis;
et pro animabus parentum et nostrorum; viz. terram illam
ubi ecclesia praedicta de Herefort aedificata est;....
T. Rogero episcopo Sarum, et R. episcopo Lincoliae, et
Gaufrido abbate Wintoniae, et Ranulfo cancellario, et
Nigello de Albini, apud Westmonasterium. ' [1]

This is of some genealogical interest, in that King
Henry is shown conceding a prior gift of Ralph de Limesi to
Hereford for (among others) " our son William and his wife
and his children " [ 'pro Willielmo filio nostro, et uxore
sua et filiis suis' ]. This is the first mention I have
found that William, son and heir of Henry I of England, had
in fact fathered children prior to (or posthumously, after)
his death on the White Ship in November 1120.

William, son and heir of King Henry I, was married in or
about June 1119 to Matilda, daughter of Count Fulk V of
Anjou (and sister of Fulk's successor, Geoffrey
'Plantagenet'). Assuming the the referenced children of
William were born to him and his wife Matilda, they likely
were born sometime between say March 1119/20 and (if
posthumous) no later than August 1122. The legitimacy of
the issue mentioned in this charter is, however, by no means
certain. This charter was granted sometime before 10 Jan
1122/3, on which date Robert Bloet, bishop of Lincoln (one
of the testators of the above charter) died in the company
of King Henry [2].

The foregoing would be of greater genealogical import if
the children of William had survived, and (especially) had
produced issue of their own. Given that they left no other
trace I have found - not to mention the eventual succession
crisis between their aunt Matilda (of England) and Stephen
of Blois (later King Stephen) - it is apparent that they
died very young. If one, or more, of the children of
William were his by his wife Matilda of Anjou, Hollister's
statement that "Matilda of Anjou [was] no more than
twelve" at her marriage to William will require
correction [3].

Cheers,

John *

NOTES

[1] Dugdale, Monasticon Anglicanum VI(3):1215.

[2] C. Warren Hollister, Henry I, p. 333.

[3] Ibid., p. 261, note <106>.

* John P. Ravilious

[John P. Ravilious]

Hello All,

Please note correction inserted below.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

for " no later than August 1122 ", read " no later than August 1121.
"

[medieval gestation was, I think, comparable to the present...]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Snip >>>>>>>>>>>

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/3/06 9:24:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, Therav3 writes:

<< I have found - not to mention the eventual succession
crisis between their aunt Matilda (of England) and Stephen
of Blois (later King Stephen) - it is apparent that they
died very young. If one, or more, of the children of
William were his by his wife Matilda of Anjou, >>

That's odd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Adelin
states that the wife was named Isabella d'Anjou

Is there conflict on her name? I haven't seen Matilda as a synonym for
Isabella
Thanks
Will Johnson

[John P. Ravilious]

Dear Will,

The Wikipedia entry would be wrong, if it is concerning the
Angevin wife of William of England (son of King Henry I). William's
wife was definitely Maud (aka Matilda in Latin, elsewhere may be given
as Mahaut), daughter of Count Fulk of Anjou and sister of Geoffrey
'Plantagenet'.

See for one scholarly souce, C. Warren Hollister's " Henry I "
, p. 291. This is shown on GoogleBooks:

http://books.google.com/books?ie=UTF-8&hl=en&vid=ISBN0300098294&id=fApJih-hDTQC&pg=PA291&lpg=PA291&dq=fulk+anjou+maud+william+england&prev=http://books.google.com/books%3Fq%3Dfulk%2Banjou%2Bmaud%2Bwilliam%2Bengland&sig=W47q-zb_X84aP8s8McIenDYretA

Cheers,

John

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/10/06 1:52:54 PM Pacific Standard Time,
leov...@netspeed.com.au writes:

<< Wikepedia should not be used as a hallmark, it is littered with errors. It
needs an enormous amount of fine-tuning (I think). >>

Well get to work! I myself have made over 1300 edits ;)
We could always use more editors to fix things up. And behind each and every
article is a "talk" page for discussion about that very article.

So for example Isabel of Anjou has a talk page. Someone could post "How do
we know her name was Isabel? so and so says it was matilda?" And then it
starts a discussion possibly and leads to a correction with a source citation.

That's how it improves by small accretions over time.

Will Johnson

[WJho...@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/10/06 2:20:31 PM Pacific Standard Time, the...@aol.com
writes:

<< The Wikipedia entry would be wrong, if it is concerning the
Angevin wife of William of England (son of King Henry I). William's
wife was definitely Maud (aka Matilda in Latin, elsewhere may be given
as Mahaut), daughter of Count Fulk of Anjou and sister of Geoffrey
'Plantagenet'. >>

See the beauty of wikipedia is, anyone at all, not even needing an account,
can go to that page, click on Edit, make the change, add a note to the TALK
page, etc post the source and the like. If other's don't think its right they
can revert it, or post more discussion.

It's similar to a message boards with threads, except the front page is the
"summary" of all the opinions on the topic essentially.

Will Johnson