khans and murzas of Turkic heritage
M Sjostrom
the empress of Russia proclaimed
duke Miihkali Golitsin (1687-1775)
as the murza and Khan of the Saamid
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00151929&tree=LEO
the Saamid, in northwestern Sibiria and to an extent also in
northeasternmost Europe
are a bunch of Uralic tribes and languages.
they seem to have some genetic similarity with some turkic peoples (such as
Sakha) and several of uralic peoples (such as Udmurt, Chud, etc)
the current knowledge of Y DNA test results show that Miihkali Golitsin
actually would have had a y dna which is shared by a big bunch of Saamid men
(such as, among current nenetsi tribes) in northwestern Sibiria,
so genetically he was sort of indigeneous to his khanate
M Sjostrom
1 nobleman Baltychak (slain in 1378)
1.1 emir Edigu/Idegäy Mangit, beg and khan of Nogai horde (mentioned in
1399; born est 1360; assassinated in 1419)
1.1.2 murza Nureddin beg, Khan of Nogai horde (born in est 1380s)
1.1.2.1 murza Vaqqas/Aqaz beg, Khan of Nogai horde (mentioned in 1426; died
perhaps 1440)
1.1.2.1.3 murza Musa beg, Khan of Nogai horde (died in c1506; born in est
1440)
1.1.2.1.3.5 murza Jussuf beg, Khan of Nogai horde (mentioned in 1549;
murdered in 1556; born est 1490s)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3 murza Il (dc 1612; born est 1550)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3.4 murza Seyush (d 1656)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3.4.1 murza Abdul, 'Dimitri Seyushevich', prince
Jusupov-Kniazhevo (d 1694; b est 1640s)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3.4.1.1 Grigori Dimitrievich Jusupov (b 1676; d 1730)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3.4.1.1.1 Boris Grigorievich Jusupov (b 1695; d 1759)
1.1.2.1.3.5.3.4.1.1.1.1 Elizaveta Borisovna Jusupova (b 1745; d 1770)
1.1.2.1.3.8 murza Izmail beg, khan of Nogai horde (mentioned in 1551; died
in c1564; born est 1500)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1 murza (Maqmet) Urush beg, khan of Qasimov and Nogai horde
(slain in 1610 at Kaluga; mentioned in 1579; born est 1540)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4 murza Satyi (born bef est 1570)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1 murza Qasim, 'Andrei Satyevich/Satyich', prince Urussov
(mentioned in 1615; died after 1640; died in c1643; born in est 1580s),
baptized, voivode of Nizhni-Novgorod; married: murzada Maria of Tumen
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1 murza Semen Andreievich Urussov, boyar of Moscow
(mentioned in 1636; died in 1657; born in est 1610s), boyar in 1655;
married: princess Fedossia Borisovna Lykova-Obolenskaia (d aft 1675; born
est 1610)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.1 murza Peter Semenovich Urussov, lord of Petrovskoje
and Kozlovo, boyar of Moscow (mentioned in 1658; d 1686; born in est 1630s)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.1.2 murzada (Anastasia) Petrovna Urussova, co-heiress
of Kozlovo and Petrovskoje (born in est 1660s)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.1.2.1 prince Ivan Iakovlevich Lobanov-Rostovski,
co-heir of Petrovskoje and Kozlovo
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3 murza Nikita Semenovich Urussov, lord of Jilkovichi,
boyar of Moscow (mentioned in 1656; died in Febr 1692; born c1640), boyar in
1679
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3.2 murza Alexis Nikitich Urussov (mentioned in 1686;
died after 1692; born est 1660); married princess Vasilissa Petrovna
Dolgorukova (born bef 1670)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3.2.1 murza Grigori Alexeievich Urussov, lord of
Afonassovo and Kononovo, governor of Voronezh, senator, general
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3.4 murza Semen Nikitich Urussov (mentioned in 1694;
died after 1723; born est 1670), commandant of Sereda; married countess
Sophia Borisovna Sheremeteva (b 1671; d 1694)
1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3.4.1 murza Vasili Semenovich Urussov, lord of
Simbukhino and Kozlovo (mentioned in 1719; died between 1727-1740; born in
est 1690).
Leo
two spellings Urussov and Ourousov which caused quite a mess for me. I have
settled on Urussov. I gathered information also from other sources and at
the moment the Urussov family is better recorded in my system, this will
appear on genealogics after the next update.
When I started I did not have the earliest generations, but now I have 780
descendants in my system for Baltychak, killed in 1378, the first of this
family.
Off Topic
Looking how complete the family is, I found quite a few loose ends, and I
wonder if anyone can link these back to the main family.
1.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov (no dates) married Leonilla
Lazarevna Lazarev (no dates) and they had at least one child, Princess Anna
Alexandrovna Urussova, 1881-1954, wife of Prince Michael Obolenski
2.Prince Alexander Pavlovitch Urussov, married Baroness Maria Borisovna
Vietinghoff-Scheel, they had at least one child, Princess Sophia
Alexandrovna 1895-1974, wife of Prince Nicolas Alexeievich Obolenski
3.Prince Alexander Nicolaievich Urussov, married Anna Alexandrovna Dohne,
they had at least one child Princess Julie Alexandrovna, born in 1868, and
married to Prince Valerian Constantinovich Galitzine
4.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, 1767-1853 married to Katherina
Pavlovna Tatistchev
5. Prince Alexander Lvovich Urussov, born in 1881, married to Princess Sofia
Vladimirovna Urussova
6.Prince Nicholas Urussov, father of Princess Anastasia 1820-1894, wife of
Serge Ivanovich Maltzov
7.Prince Dimitrievich Urussov, married Natalia Wladimirovna Istomine, they
had two children, Tatiana born in 1904 and Peter born in 1907
8.Prince Peter Alexandrovich Urussov, married Ekaterina Nicolaievna
Sipiaguina, they had at least one son Vladimir 1857-1907
9.Prince Paul Alexandrovich, 1807-1886, married Alexandra Sergeievna
Uvarova, they had at least one son Vladimir 1838-1880.
10.Princess NN Alexeievna Urussova, married Prince Semion Mikhailovich
Kozlovsky, they had at least one son Alexei 1707-1776
I hope someone can help, even if it is with only one.
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
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M Sjostrom
==========
via Russian highest aristocracy, there are good possibilities for having
descents from genuine Sibiria: from rulers of more-or-less-indigeneous
Sibirian kingdoms and principalities.
I gather that between say 1300s and about 1600, there were two dynasties
battling for supremacy in Sibiria and as chiefs for whether representative
of either dynasty could gain supremacy over the whole kingdom of Sibiria
1) the Genghisid branch in Sibiria, i.e the Shaybanid lineage. They were
not originally indinegeous, but in more than two centuries, had entrenched
themselves to Sibiria, and prssumably also received some Sibirian blood via
some mothers
2) the Taibugid dynasty were not Genghisid - instead, they appear rather to
been indigeneous, and in long run, they had more allies in the northern
parts and anmong forest tribes
They were ruling Tumän realm, which was older and somewhat seminal for the
whole kingdom. Tsimki-Tura as seat (town of Tumen).
in the 1400s, some Shaybanids managed to depose Taibugids, but it reverted
to Taibugids and then reverted again in 1500s.
>From around 1500, seat of the kingdom of Sibiria was Qasliq (town of Sibir)
-----------------------------------------------
I understand that at least via one princess, the blood of indigeneous
chieftains of Tumän passed to aristocrats in Russia:
murzada Maria of Tumen,
the paternal grandmother of the father of this lady
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00399679&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=5
who also is the patrilineal great-great-grandmother of this:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554006&tree=LEO&parentset=0&display=standard&generations=5
Other lineages may exist
and I understand that the blood from Genghisid rulers of Sibir passed -for
example- from
* the mother of this lady:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554028&tree=LEO
khatun Domna of Qasimov
* mother of the the paternal grandmother of this:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00254125&tree=LEO
khatun Alexandra of Sibiria
Other lineages may exist
Henry Soszynski
wrote:
>Because of this message I got stuck into this family, stumbling across the
>two spellings Urussov and Ourousov which caused quite a mess for me. I have
>settled on Urussov. I gathered information also from other sources and at
>the moment the Urussov family is better recorded in my system, this will
>appear on genealogics after the next update.
>
Hi Leo, FWIW I also use Urusov. Jacques Ferrand has an incomplete
genealogy of this family in volume one of "Les Familles Princières de
l'Ancien Empire de Russie" 2nd Edition, Paris 1997 page 285.
>When I started I did not have the earliest generations, but now I have 780
>descendants in my system for Baltychak, killed in 1378, the first of this
>family.
>
>Off Topic
>Looking how complete the family is, I found quite a few loose ends, and I
>wonder if anyone can link these back to the main family.
>
>1.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov (no dates) married Leonilla
>Lazarevna Lazarev (no dates) and they had at least one child, Princess Anna
>Alexandrovna Urussova, 1881-1954, wife of Prince Michael Obolenski
>
He and his wife are nor in the Urusov section but are mentioned in the
Obolensky article, p. 260, wher Anna is given the dates *30.10.1892 in
Brussels, +6.2.1964 in Nice, marriedx 29.4.1911 in St. Petersburg.
Ferrand gives the spelling of the family as Ouroussov.
>2.Prince Alexander Pavlovitch Urussov, married Baroness Maria Borisovna
>Vietinghoff-Scheel, they had at least one child, Princess Sophia
>Alexandrovna 1895-1974, wife of Prince Nicolas Alexeievich Obolenski
>
In Obolensky article only, Sophia *16.7.1895 KIev, +21.3.1974
Washington, married 9.1.1919 in KIev
>3.Prince Alexander Nicolaievich Urussov, married Anna Alexandrovna Dohne,
>they had at least one child Princess Julie Alexandrovna, born in 1868, and
>married to Prince Valerian Constantinovich Galitzine
>
I have Yuliya born 1872, +11.11.1951 in Brjussels, married 25.4.1894
in Moscow. Nothing further on Urusov.
>4.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, 1767-1853 married to Katherina
>Pavlovna Tatistchev
>
Aleksander 1766-1853, son of Mikhail son of Vasily Alekseievich Urusov
and +1742 and Praskovya Petrovna Dolgorukaya.
Vasily was son of Aleksei fl.1686, son of Nikita +1692, son of Semen
+1657, son of Kasim Mirza (aka Andrei) +1643 son of Satyl Mirza, son
of Urus Mirza.
>5. Prince Alexander Lvovich Urussov, born in 1881, married to Princess Sofia
>Vladimirovna Urussova
>
Aleksander, son of Lev Pavlovich *7.1.1839, and Paulina Aleksandrovna
Abaza. Aleksander son of Pavel Aleksandrovich Urusov, son of
Aleksander Mikhailovich Urusov 1766-1853 and his Tatischeva wife.
Sofia Vladimirovna Urusova +1903, was daughter of Vladimir Dmitrievich
Urusov and his wife Maria Aleksandrovna Lobanov-Rostovskaya.
Vladimir was son of Dmitry Nikitich Urusov and Aleksandra Petrovna
Naryshkina.
Dmitry was son of Nikita Sergeievich Urusov *1745, fl. 1800, son of
Sergei Vasilievich Urusov 1719-25.2.1787, married 1745, Elena
Vasilievna Volynskaya.
Sergei was son of Vasily Alekseievich Urusov +1742 and Praskovya
Petrovna Dolgorukaya (see above)
>6.Prince Nicholas Urussov, father of Princess Anastasia 1820-1894, wife of
>Serge Ivanovich Maltzov
>
Their daughter was Maria Sergeievna Maltsova *3.12.1844 St Petersburg,
+21.10.1904 in Rome, she married 1863, Leonid Dmitrievich Urusov
1837-23.9.1885, son of Dmitry Nikitich Urusov and Aleksandra Petrovna
Naryshkina (see above)
>7.Prince Dimitrievich Urussov, married Natalia Wladimirovna Istomine, they
>had two children, Tatiana born in 1904 and Peter born in 1907
>
No details
>8.Prince Peter Alexandrovich Urussov, married Ekaterina Nicolaievna
>Sipiaguina, they had at least one son Vladimir 1857-1907
>
If this Vladimir is the one who married Varvara Vasilievna Gudovich,
then his father is Aleksander Mikhailovich Urusov and Aleksandra
Petrovna Naryshkina (see above)
>9.Prince Paul Alexandrovich, 1807-1886, married Alexandra Sergeievna
>Uvarova, they had at least one son Vladimir 1838-1880.
>
son of Aleksander Mikhailovich Urusov 1766-1853 and Ekaterina Pavlovna
Tatishcheva (see above)
>10.Princess NN Alexeievna Urussova, married Prince Semion Mikhailovich
>Kozlovsky, they had at least one son Alexei 1707-1776
>
No details except to add Evdokiya Semenovna Kozlovskaya as their
daughter, she married Peter Vasilievich Volkonsky fl.1775, parents of
Yakov and Sergei (1750-1807)
>I hope someone can help, even if it is with only one.
>With many thanks
>Leo van de Pas
>Canberra, Australia
>
Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski
M Sjostrom
biggest problem of the modern-era lineage of the Urussov,
a thing Ikonnikov refers to his work.
Namely, a remarkable branch of the current murzas Urussov are descended from
murza Nikita Sergeievich (died between 1806/1811)
but there existed two different, but contemporary with one another, men
named Sergei Vasilievich Urussov. Both of them could have had a son in the
early 1750s. One of them was Nikita's father, but naturally not both of
them.
One of these namesakes was son of: murza Vasili Semenovich Urussov, lord
of Simbukhino and Kozlovo (mentioned in 1719; died between 1727-1740; born
in est 1690).
The other of these namesakes was son of: murza Vasili Alexeievich Urussov,
general (born est 1690; d 2 august 1742)
I believe a careful analysis of, at least, inheritance of properties, could
reveal which one is the likelier (or possibly even the definite) lineage to
have produced this very Nikita Sergeievich Urussov.
Also it is evident to me that up to the time of publication of Ikonnikov's
that tome (in 1940), nobody really had done such an analysis well enough.
Instead everybody was just parroting some next-to-useless beliefs and
guesses from careless genealogies of the 1800s. Ikonnikov practically again
warns about the unreliability (in this sort of questions) of the works of
Peter Dolgorukov, where a guess of that Urussov guy's root was.
Let's just mention that one of Nikita Sergeievich's sons is indicated as
having held the estate of Spasskoje. Of course, this is not at all
everything about their landed inheritances.
I tend to believe (but it's not a total certainty, just a good hunch) that
the mother of the said Nikita Sergeievich (as Genealogisches Handbuch des
Adels, 1956, gives the maternity filiation) was: princess Iryna Danylovna
Drutska-Sokolinska. But this does not help to determine whichever of the two
namesakes Sergei Vasilievich were her husband.
For example Ikonnikov places Elena Vasilievna Volynskaia as the wife of that
Sergei Vasilievich whose father was Vasili Alexeievich. Relatively
obviously, he was not Iryna's husband.
I refrain for now from giving a definite determination which one of the two
parallel lineages is the correct one.
----- Original Message ----- From: "M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com>
> To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2010 1:46 PM
> Subject: Re: khans and murzas of Turkic heritage
>
>
>
> 1.1.2.1.3.8.1.4.1.1.3.2.... murza Grigori Alexeievich Urussov
M Sjostrom
> ....
> Looking how complete the family is, I found quite a few loose ends, and I
> wonder if anyone can link these back to the main family.
>
> 1.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov (no dates) married Leonilla
> Lazarevna Lazarev (no dates) and they had at least one child, Princess Anna
> Alexandrovna Urussova, 1881-1954, wife of Prince Michael Obolenski
>
>
this mentioned wife (m 1870) Leonilla Lazarevna Lazarev-Hoym, heiress of
Lapotka (d 1932), is daughter of Lazar Iakimovich Lazarev and his wife,
princess Antoinette von Biron, both these personages already in your system.
and this mentioned murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of Venev (b
1839; died in c1886) was son of:
Ekaterina Petrovna Engelhardt, lady of Ovinovstsina (b 1817; d 1902)
and her husband, murza Mikhail Alexandrovich Urussov (b 1802; d 1883),
governor-general in the northeastern Ruthenia, cavalry general
whose brothers included the certain mentioned murza Pavel Alexandrovich
Urussov, infantry general (1807-86), and murza Peter Alexandrovich Urussov
(1810-90)
these all three were sons of murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of
Ruza, etc (d 1853) and his wife, Ekaterina Pavlovna Tatisheva, both these
personages already in your system.
These filiations come chiefly from the 1940 work of Nicolas F Ikonnikoiv
I mailed these to you on about Thursday, 17 June. a more detailed material
about these individuals, their filiations and dates, with more specific
references to the literature, are in those emails, which I refrain from
posting here in their entirety, rather relying that you will find them in
your email box.
M Sjostrom
..... a few loose ends, and I wonder if anyone can link these back to the
>> main family.
>>
>>
>> 2.Prince Alexander Pavlovitch Urussov, married Baroness Maria Borisovna
>> Vietinghoff-Scheel, they had at least one child, Princess Sophia
>> Alexandrovna 1895-1974, wife of Prince Nicolas Alexeievich Obolenski
>>
>>
>
>
this murza Alexander Pavlovich Urussov (b 1843; d 1897) was son of
countess Alexandra Sergeievna Uvarova [whose parents were the Minister of
Education, count Sergei Semenovich Uvarov, and his Rozumovska wife, herself
daughter of the Minister of Education, the ukrainian count Oleksi Kyrylovych
Rozumovski - all these three personages already in your system, though
still as fragments without filiations between them...]
and her husband
murza Pavel Alexandrovich Urussov, infantry general (b 1807; d 1886)
himself brother of murza Peter Alexandrovich Urussov (1810-90) - both these
two were sons of murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of Ruza, etc (d
1853) and his wife, Ekaterina Pavlovna Tatisheva (all these three personages
already in your system, though still as fragments without filiations between
them...)
these come mainly from the 1940 work of Ikonnikov
I mailed these to you on about Thursday, 17 June. A more detailed material
about these individuals, their filiations and dates, giving links to the
numbering in your system and with more specific references to the
M Sjostrom
.....a few loose ends, and I wonder if anyone can link these back to the
main family.
>
>
> 3.Prince Alexander Nicolaievich Urussov, married Anna Alexandrovna Dohne,
> they had at least one child Princess Julie Alexandrovna, born in 1868, and
> married to Prince Valerian Constantinovich Galitzine
>
>
the following lineage comes mainly from the 1940 work of Ikonnikov:
murza Alexei Nikitich Urussov (b est 1660; d after 1692) whom I already
mentioned in my listing of the medieval genealogy of these murzas from the
country of Turkestan
married princess Vasilissa Petrovna Dolgorukova (born bef 1670)
their one younger son was:
murza Vasili Alexeievich Urussov, general (bc 1690; d in August 1742); he
married princess Paraskeva Petrovna Dolgorukova (mentioned in 1709; in 1713;
b aft est 1690); daughter of prince Peter Mikhailovich Dolgorukov
Their sons included:
1 murza Sergei Vasilievich Urussov (died perhaps about 1755) - one of the
two guys, contemporaries, bearing the same name as I mentioned in an earlier
post in this thread
2 murza Mikhail Vasilievich Urussov (b est 1730)
with his wife Felitzata, had children, including:
2.1 the earlier-mentioned murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of
Ruza etc
2.2 murza Dimitri Mikhailovich Urussov (born est 1760)
with his wife Eudokia, had children, including:
murza Nikolai Dimitrievich Urussov (b 1797; d 1869)
whose son was:
this asked one, murza Alexander Nikolaievich Urussov, general (died in 1901;
born est 1830s)
who himself was the father of
the mentioned murzada Julie Urussova
M Sjostrom
>
> 4.Prince Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, 1767-1853 married to Katherina
> Pavlovna Tatistchev
>
>
according to Ikonnikov, this murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of
Ruza, etc, comes from the branch:
murza Alexei Nikitich Urussov (fl 1686; b est 1660; d after 1692) whom I
already listed in my post about late-medieval leaders of Nogai horde
he married princess Vasilissa Petrovna Dolgorukova
their one younger son was:
murza Vasili Alexeievich Urussov, general (bc 1690; d 2 August 1742); he
married princess Paraskeva Petrovna Dolgorukova (mentioned in 1709; in 1713;
b aft est 1690)
Their sons included:
murza Mikhail Vasilievich Urussov (b est 1730)
with his wife Felitzata, had children, including:
this asked murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of Ruza etc. He
married the rurikid noblewoman, Ekaterina Pavlovna Tatisheva.
with his Tatisheva wife (Ekaterina), he had several children, including:
1 the already mentioned, murza Mikhail Alexandrovich Urussov,
governor-general of Smolensk (b 1802; d 1883), cavalry general
2 the already mentioned, murza Pavel Alexandrovich Urussov, infantry
general (b 1807; d 1886)
3 the already mentioned, murza Peter Alexandrovich Urussov (b 1810; d 1890)
These filiations come chiefly from the 1940 work of Nicolas F Ikonnikov -
and fortunately the same is essentially the lineage used by Jacques Ferrand,
1979, vol I page 234, whom I regard only as last resort about medieval
lineages (he obviously simply copied them from some varying places, the
quality being consequently wildly varying) but pretty good in receiving
photographs and the 1900s family listings from living members of those
families.
I mailed these to you on about Wednesday, 16 June. A more detailed material
M Sjostrom
> .... a few loose ends, and I wonder if anyone can link these back to the
> main family.
>
> 5. Prince Alexander Lvovich Urussov, born in 1881, married to Princess
> Sofia Vladimirovna Urussova
>
the following chiefly comes from
Nicolas F. Ikonnikov, la Noblesse de Russie, ref: 1940, tome E2, Urussov
augmented by a few other sources.
this couple, murza A.L.Urussov and murzada S.V.Urussova, first cousins,
married in 1902, and pretty soon, the bride deceased.
people mentioned below, generally lived in Romania
murza Alexander Lvovich Urussov's mother was from a remarkable family from
Romania,
the mother was: Paraschiva 'Pauline' Abaza (d in June 1928)
daughter of Alexandru Abaza, Minister of Finance [from a boyar family of
Moldavia], and his wife, Alexandra Bernardakaina, daughter of the Greek
millionaire, Demetrios Benardakis. You have Minister Alexandru Abaza's
brother in your system.
A.L.Urussov's father was:
murza Lev Pavlovich Urussov, ambassador (b 1839 at Warsaw, Poland; d 1926 at
Nizza, France)
whose brother was murza Alexander Pavlovich Urussov, who is already
mentioned,
they both were sons of countess Alexandra Sergeievna Uvarova and her
husband, murza Paul Alexandrovich Urussov, infantry general (b 1807; d
1886), whom I already have mentioned
I mailed these to you on about Thursday, 17 June. A more detailed material
M Sjostrom
> ..... quite a few loose ends, and I wonder if anyone can link these back to
> the main family.
>
> 6.Prince Nicholas Urussov, father of Princess Anastasia 1820-1894, wife of
> Serge Ivanovich Maltzov
>
>
>
general Sergei Ivanovich Maltsov was born in 1809 and died in 1893
murzada Anastasia Nikolaievna Urussov's parents were:
Irina Nikitichna Khitrovo (1784-1854)
and her husband
murza Nicolas Jurjevich Urussov, general (1767-1821)
himself son of: murza Juri Vasilievich Urussov
who was a son of:
murza Vasili Semenovich Urussov, lord of Simbukhino and Kozlovo (mentioned
in 1719; died between 1727-1740; born est 1690)
whom I listed in my post here about those late-medieval emirs of the Nogai
Horde in Turkestan
this lineage chiefly is from
Nicolas F. Ikonnikov, la Noblesse de Russie, tome E2, 1940
M Sjostrom
>
> 7.Prince Dimitrievich Urussov, married Natalia Wladimirovna Istomine, they
> had two children, Tatiana born in 1904 and Peter born in 1907
>
>
Tatiana and Peter were not their sole children.
According to Jacques Ferrand (1982), Partie 3, page 71, this Natalia
Vladimirovna Istomina and her Urussov husband had also for example an elder
son, Nicolas Petrovich Urussov, whose male lineage appears to be extant
still these days, at USA, where it seems there exists a somewhat famous
journalist, scion of this branch I believe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolai_Ouroussoff
http://cityfile.com/profiles/nicolai-ouroussoff
I am trustful that Ferrand got the 1900s family right as it involved
correspondence with living relatives of that family - this although I am not
too trustful about Ferrand's any lineage material prior to late 1800s. This
is again a validation of my understanding that people (in this case, living
in the 1970s) have a somewhat reliable grasp of their own families for the
hundred preceding years, and to the contrary, earlier lineages may get
slurred by them and consequently by anyone whose main source are families
themselves, such as Ferrand I believe.
Natalia's husband,
murza Peter Dimitrievich Urussov (b est 1870; d 1933 at Derbent, Caucasia)
comes, according to Ikonnikov 1940, and fortunately similarly according to
Ferrand 1982, from the branch:
murza Nikita Sergeievich Urussov, governor of Jaroslavl (b ?1745; died
between 1806 and 1811) whom I have mentioned as the main victim in the post
about the problem of two contemporaneous men named Sergei Vasilievich
Urussov,
he married (in est 1780) the rurikid noblewoman Paraskeva Stepanovna
Rzhevskaia, whose parents were general Stepan Matveievich Rzhevski and his
Stroganova wife, they are both already in your system.
Their younger son was:
murza Semen Nikitich Urussov, lord of Spasskoje (b 1785; d 1857; buried at
Spasskoje, near Jaroslavl), senator;
he married: Anna von Markschitz, daughter of an architect.
And I have no doubt that it was pretty much the intellectual genes of the
said architect which made many of the subsequent generations of this branch
of murzas Urussov so talented in applied things dealing with patterns. Such
as, chessmasters. You'll find chess celebrities and one architecture critic
precisely among these descendants.
Their children included:
murza Dimitri Semenovich Urussov, lord of Spasskoje (bc 1829; d 1903; buried
at Spasskoje, near Jaroslavl), who was a founder of chess association in
Russia.
by his wife (Varvara Silichna Batasheva, d 1905), he had several children,
including this asked murza Peter Dimitrievich Urussov
I mailed this ascent of murza Peter to you on about Friday, 18 June. A more
M Sjostrom
>
>
> 8.Prince Peter Alexandrovich Urussov, married Ekaterina Nicolaievna
> Sipiaguina, they had at least one son Vladimir 1857-1907
>
>
Ekaterina Nikolaievna Sipjagina was born in 1827, died in 1894.
murza Peter Alexandrovich Urussov (born in 1810, died in 1890), a colonel,
was son of murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of Ruza, etc (d 1853)
and his wife, Ekaterina Pavlovna Tatisheva, both these
personages already in your system.
Peter Alexandrovich was brother of murza Mikhail Alexandrovich Urussov,
cavalry general (1802-83) and of murza Pavel Alexandrovich Urussov, infantry
general (1807-86)
these filiations chiefly are found from
Nicolas F. Ikonnikov, la Noblesse de Russie, tome E2, 1940
I mailed these to you on about Thursday, 17 June. A more detailed material
M Sjostrom
>
>
> 9.Prince Paul Alexandrovich, 1807-1886, married Alexandra Sergeievna
> Uvarova, they had at least one son Vladimir 1838-1880.
>
>
>
countess Alexandra Sergeievna Uvarova
was daughter of the Minister of Education, count Sergei Semenovich Uvarov
[the nasty thing about spellings from french renditions is that he is under
such a pompous version as 'Ouvarov']
and his wife
countess Ekaterina Oleksyivna Rozumovska [from that remarkable Ukrainian
family - her great-grandfather had been a simple cossack in ranks, I
believe]
herself daughter of the Minister of Education, the ukrainian count Oleksi
Kyrylovych Rozumovski - who is also in your system, though he is under the
pompous (and non-ukrainian) version 'Razoumovsky'
murza Paul Alexandrovich Urussov, infantry general (born in 1807, died in
1886),
was son of murza Alexander Mikhailovich Urussov, lord of Ruza, etc (d 1853)
and his Rurikid wife, Ekaterina Pavlovna Tatisheva, both these
personages already in your system.
Paul Alexandrovich was brother of colonel, murza Peter Alexandrovich
Urussov, and of murza Mikhail Alexandrovich Urussov, cavalry general
(1802-83)
This Paul and his Uvarova wife had several children, some of them already
mentioned in earlier posts. murza Lev and murza Alexander.
these filiations chiefly are from Ikonnikov's 1940 work
M Sjostrom
.....quite a few loose ends, and I wonder if anyone can link these back to
the main family.
>
> 10.Princess NN Alexeievna Urussova, married Prince Semion Mikhailovich
> Kozlovsky, they had at least one son Alexei 1707-1776
>
>
I think that prince Alexei Semenovich Kozlovski's birthdating is possibly
mistaken. Standard works do not know when he was born, and highly likely,
all birthyears for him are estimates.
according to Europäische Stammtafeln, vol III/5, page 871,
this Alexei Kozlovski was lord of Podiagodnoje-Saburovo
and he had siblings, including a brother, prince Mikhail Semenovich
Kozlovski (d 1767) whose lineage to the present day is listed in Ferrand
1979 Partie 1 p 31, etc.
Alexei Semenovich Kozlovski's that murzada Urussova mother -according to the
said Schwennicke, as well as according to other sources- was daughter of
murza Alexis Nikitich Urussov (mentioned in 1686; died after 1692; born est
1660) [you have him in your system] and his wife, the already mentioned
princess Vasilissa Petrovna Dolgorukova
This Urussova murzada had siblings, already in your system, such as murza
Grigori and murza Ivan
the husband, prince Semen Mikhailovic Kozlovski, lord of Podiagodnoje, was
mentioned in 1692.
In the epoch in this wealth and social class, often the first appearance is
when a princeling is about 20 years old, a bit less or more, and starting a
career in the court or somesuch. However, occasionally, a much younger child
is mentioned first time for example in conjunction of some inheritance if
the father or mother has deceased.
I mailed the information to you about her paternity on about Wednesday, 16
June, etc. A more detailed material about these individuals, their
Leo
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: "M Sjostrom" <mqs...@gmail.com>
<Snip>
>
> I mailed these to you on about Thursday, 17 June. A more detailed material
> about these individuals, their filiations and dates, giving links to the
> numbering in your system and with more specific references to the
> literature, are in those emails, which I refrain from posting here in
> their
> entirety, rather relying that you will find them in your email box.
>
Henry Soszynski
wrote:
This Maria seems to be well connected IF my data is any good.
Maria Vasilievna Tyumenskaya (sic!), daughter of Vasily Agishevich
Tyumensky and Princess Marfa Semenovna Lobanova-Rostovskaya (+bef1630)
Maria was sister of Solomonida, wife ofPrince Ivan Feodorovich
Turenin
>
>and I understand that the blood from Genghisid rulers of Sibir passed -for
>example- from
>
>* the mother of this lady:
>http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554028&tree=LEO
>khatun Domna of Qasimov
>
>* mother of the the paternal grandmother of this:
>http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00254125&tree=LEO
>khatun Alexandra of Sibiria
>
>Other lineages may exist
Is it known how Domna (born late 1660's) (daughter of Vasily) is
related to Aleksandra 1728-1793 (daughter of Yakov Vasilievich
Sibirsky 1711-1742 and Anna Stepanovna Glebova)
Others from this family line:
1/. Aleksei Alekseievich Sibirsky (*estd.1660) +1686, married Agrafena
Alekseievna Galitzina
2/. Bogdan Kalinnikovich Sibirsky (*estd. 1626), married Elena
Nikitichna Baryatinskaya.
3/. Dmitry Alekseievich Sibirsky (*estd. 1678), married Kseniya
Vladimirovna Dolgorukaya
4/. Sergei Vasilievich Sibirsky (*estd.1691), married Anastasia
Mikhailovna Dolgorukaya
No issue (known to me) from these marriages.
Cheers,
Henry Soszynski
M Sjostrom
> Other lineages may exist.....
>
> ----
>
> and I understand that the blood from Genghisid rulers of Sibir passed -for
> example- from
>
> * the mother of this lady:
> http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554028&tree=LEO
> khatun Domna of Qasimov
>
> * mother of the the paternal grandmother of this:
> http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00254125&tree=LEO
> khatun Alexandra of Sibiria
>
> Other lineages may exist....
>
>
On 21 kesä, 03:55, Henry Soszynski <zzhso...@uqconnect.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:05:02 +0300, M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
> >-----------------------------------------------
>
> >I understand that at least via one princess, the blood of indigeneous
> >chieftains of Tum n passed to aristocrats in Russia:
>
> >murzada Maria of Tumen,
> >the paternal grandmother of the father of this lady
> >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00399679&tree=LEO&paren...
> >who also is the patrilineal great-great-grandmother of this:
> >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554006&tree=LEO&paren...
>
>
> This Maria seems to be well connected IF my data is any good.
> Maria Vasilievna Tyumenskaya (sic!), daughter of Vasily Agishevich
> Tyumensky and Princess Marfa Semenovna Lobanova-Rostovskaya (+bef1630)
> Maria was sister of Solomonida, wife ofPrince Ivan Feodorovich
> Turenin
>
In the early 1500s, Sibiria did not belong to Russia in any meaningful way.
according to Ikonnikov,
prince Semen Lobanov-Rostovski, voivode of Voronezh and Bryansk (mentioned
in 1582; died after 1594; born est 1550s)
had daughter:
princess Marfa Semenovna Lobanova-Rostovskaia (born bef est 1580; she
seemingly moved to Sibiria); married murza Vasili of Tumen, 'Vasili
Agishevich', prince Tjumenski (he was from Sibiria; mentioned in 1614; died
after 1616) [according to another source, his father was: murza Aguish beg,
prince of Tumän - he was from Sibiria].
their (one) daughter was:
murzada Maria of Tumen (she was from Sibirian family; born in est 1590s);
she married: murza Qasim, 'Andrei Satyevich/Satyich', prince Urussov (he was
from the land of Turkestan; mentioned in 1615; died in c1643; born in est
1580s), baptized
So, Henry's data appears to be relatively good to this extent at least.
As I understand it, the mentioned murza Agish from the dynasty of Tumän in
Sibiria was an ally of Muscovites.
I have understood that his two sons, Vasili and Roman of Tumen, had to flee
to Russia, where they were baptized. Sibiria seems to have been a dangerous
place for their family, perhaps as in late 1500s, the Shaybanids in person
of king Kuchum (rivals of the Tumän princelings) had gained the controlling
position in Sibiria. On the other hand, precisely in the last two decades of
1500s, life got difficult to Kuchum and his family too, because of Russians
who vanquished their lands.
I would love to know reliably what (if any) were the precise genealogical
connections between the murza Aguish I mentioned above and the Taibugid
monarchs of Sibiria: king Taibuga, king Khoja, king Mar, king Mamuk
(Muhammad), king Abalak and king Yadigar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khanate_of_Sibir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_conquest_of_Siberia
was he possibly directly that king Agish/Aguish of Sibiria? or a kinsman
with same name?
----
> >and I understand that the blood from Genghisid rulers of Sibir passed
-for
> >example- from
>
> >* the mother of this lady:
> >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554028&tree=LEO
> >khatun Domna of Qasimov
>
> >* mother of the the paternal grandmother of this:
> >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00254125&tree=LEO
> >khatun Alexandra of Sibiria
>
> >Other lineages may exist
>
> Is it known how Domna (born late 1660's) (daughter of Vasily) is
> related to Aleksandra 1728-1793 (daughter of Yakov Vasilievich
> Sibirsky 1711-1742 and Anna Stepanovna Glebova)
As I understand it, several members of the family of king Kuchum made their
peace with conquering Russians, so the Sibirski princes of later days could
be descended from some other branches too and not only from that son of
Kuchum who is khatun Domna's forefather.
Some time ago, I prepared the following genealogy (fwiw) about the
Shaybanids of Sibiria:
khatun Berke (who married Genghis khan) famously had the eldest son,
khan Jochi,
who had several sons, including:
khan Sheiban (mentioned in 1237; born est 1200)
his sons included:
khan Behadur
his son:
khan Juji-/Jesu-buka
his son:
khan Badakul
his son:
khan Mengu Timur 'kutlugh' (born est 1300)
his son:
khan Ilban
his son:
khan Kundi tunki-beg
his son:
khan Ali Oghlan
his son:
khan Maxmud 'haji' (born est 1400)
his son:
Ibak khan, king of Sibiria (fl c1464; d about 1493, or 1495; born est 1430s)
his son:
khan Murtaza (fl c1502)
his son: [this generation here is a really long interval
between generations]
Kuchum khan, king of Sibiria (mentioned in 1554; died bef c1605; born est
1520s)
his sons included:
khan Ghali (mentioned in 1591; born bef est 1570)
his son:
khan Arslan-ghali, emir of Qasim (d 1627; mentioned in 1614; born in est
1590); married the famous Fatima soltan
their son:
khan Saied Borhan, 'Vasili Abulgairovich', emir of Qasim (b 1624; dc 1680),
baptized in 1679
his children included:
1 khan Roman Vasilievich of Qasimov, tsarevich Sibirski
2 khatun Domna of Qasimov (dc 1729; b est 1660s); married a Rurikid,
prince Juri Jakovlevich Khilkov; son of prince Iakov Vasilievich Khilkov and
Anna Larionovna Lopukhina [who are mentioned in genealogics]
a branch:
khan Alexei, tsarevich Sibirski (were I to hazard a guess, I think it was he
whose children were born in the 1660s-1670s)
khan Vasili Alexeievich, tsarevich Sibirski (d aft 1718) [possibly he was
the father of khan Iakov Vasilievich]
his son:
khan Fedor Vasilievich, prince Sibirski
his son:
khan Vasili Fedorovich, prince Sibirski, general (fl 1790s, d after c1801)
his son:
khan Alexander, prince Sibirski, general
his son:
khan Alexander Alexandrovich, prince Sibirski (b 1824; d 1879)
M Sjostrom
tentative (fwiw) pedigree of the Tumen dynasty
On-som (killed after 1405)
his son:
Taibuga of Tumän, king of Sibiria (born est 1370; died before est 1428)
his son:
Khoja of Tumän, king of Sibiria (born est 1390)
his son:
Mar of Tumän, king of Sibiria (born after est 1400; killed after 1464)
his son:
Obder of Tumän (died after 1464)
his son:
Abalak of Tumän, king of Sibiria, claimant of Kazan (fl 1499; born est
1460s)
his son:
Agish, king of Sibiria/prince of Tumän (born est 1500)
2010/6/21 M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
> On 21 kesä, 03:55, Henry Soszynski <zzhso...@uqconnect.net> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 19 Jun 2010 05:05:02 +0300, M Sjostrom <mqs...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > >-----------------------------------------------
> >
> > >I understand that at least via one princess, the blood of indigeneous
> > >chieftains of Tum n passed to aristocrats in Russia:
>
> >
> > >murzada Maria of Tumen,
> > >the paternal grandmother of the father of this lady
> > >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00399679&tree=LEO&paren.
> ..
>
> > >who also is the patrilineal great-great-grandmother of this:
> > >http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00554006&tree=LEO&paren.
M Sjostrom
> Sadly, I have not received any of the messages referred to.
>
> Leo van de Pas
> Canberra, Australia
>
> -
>
>
that is really sad, because in course from Wednesday 16 June through Friday
18 June, I posted several messages to you via your genealogics system
suggestion box, carefully about persons to do with the Urussov family, and
the number of those messages (and persons in your database to whom
suggestions dealt) was over 20 from count of the receipts I got to my email
box.
Those messages from me obviously were received by the Genealogics system, as
it forwarded a copy of each of those messages to me too and I have them
preserved in my email folder.
This gives to me the impression that there is some sort of malfunction
between the Genealogics system (which receives suggestions and relays
receipts of them) and your personal email box (as you have none of those
messages in your email box).
as an example, here is the receipt copy of *one* of those over 20 messages I
posted to you in those days
(just as an example of a typical receipt copy which *my* emailbox received
from Genealogics):
----------------
Thursday, June 17, 2010 3:15 PM
Proposed Change: Ouroussov Leonide Dimitrievitch (I00169189)
Tree: Leo
Description:
source: Nicolas F. Ikonnikov, la Noblesse de Russie, ref: 1940, tome E2,
Urussov
his occupations included: diplomat, vice-governor of Tula
this gentleman's mother was his father's wife:
noblewoman Alexandra Petrovna Naryshkina (d 1880; born in est 1810s)
herself daughter of:
Ekaterina Stepanovna Andreievskaia
and her husband
nobleman Peter Alexandrovich Naryshkin
this gentleman's sister was:
1 pers id nr I00243095 murzada Alexandra Dimitrievna Urussova (b 1851; d
1920); married (in 1870) count Vladimir Dimitrievich Osten-Sacken,
vice-governor of Riga
this gentleman's brother was:
3 murza Juli Dmitrievich Urussov, lord of Ossinovka (b 1841; d 1919), master
of ceremonies, true councillor of state; married (in 1871) Olga Ivanovna
Tshernova (b 1852; d 1878); herself daughter of: Ivan Vasilievich Tshernov
and Vera Mikhailovna Surajevskaia.
Their daughter was:
3.1 pers id nr I00243106 murzada Maria Yulievna Urussova (b 1876); married
(in 1900) count Alexis Nikolaievich Ignatiev (b 1874)
-------------------------------------
martin...@hotmail.com
I was fascinated to read the information about Prince Jules Dmitrevich Urussov that you have here. My information from Ruvigny (Not sure of the spelling) is that he married Olga Ivanovna Stenbock and she died without issue. I find it difficult to believe that he married again to another Olga Ivanovna this time a Tshernov.
My puzzlement has always been that if his Stenbock wife died without children how do we find him visiting Eastbourne in the UK in 1893 with a daughter Marie to attend the marriage of Mary of Teck to the Prince of Wales. The logic seems to be that he married again.
I would be very interested to know of your source for the Tshernov name.
Yours faithfully
Martin Wenyon