Ruvigny Omission?

[Leo van de Pas via]

F10) Lady Katherine Somerset (1575-1624) m. William, 2nd Baron Petre (see K8 below), and had
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00058270&tree=LEO
F11) Hon. John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690) m. 1) Elizabeth Pordage (d. 1658), and had

----The above is from Brad Verity's wonderful message in regards the ancestry of Eliza Minto Canning.

As far as the children of the 2nd Lord Petre are concerned Burke's Peerage is very poor. 2nd Lord Petre was succeeded by his eldest surviving son.................no other children mentioned.

However Ruvigny Clarence Volume Table L is much more generous. The Complete Peerage gives the first son, and so I think this is a reasonbly good list:

1.John 1598-1604
2.Robert, 3rd Lord Petre 1599-1638
3.Mary 1600-1640
4.William 1602-1677
5.Edward 1603-1664
6.Thomas 1606-
7.Katherine 1607-
8.Henry 1611-1648

Eight children but no John born in 1617.........?
The mother was born about 1575, aged 23 till age 36 she recorded as having children. In 1611 she stops for another six years and aged 42 she gives birth to John?

There are between children 1,2 and 4 years. Why this long break between 1611 and 1617? Was Lord Petre absent?

Can anyone shine a light on this mystery? Was there only one John or where there two?

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

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[Brad Verity]

On Tuesday, January 6, 2015 9:53:07 PM UTC-8, Leo van de Pas via wrote:
> F10) Lady Katherine Somerset (1575-1624) m. William, 2nd Baron Petre (see K8 below), and had
> http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00058270&tree=LEO
> F11) Hon. John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690) m. 1) Elizabeth Pordage (d. 1658), and had
> ----The above is from Brad Verity's wonderful message in regards the ancestry of Eliza Minto Canning.
> As far as the children of the 2nd Lord Petre are concerned Burke's Peerage is very poor. 2nd Lord Petre was succeeded by his eldest surviving son.................no other children mentioned.
> However Ruvigny Clarence Volume Table L is much more generous. The Complete Peerage gives the first son, and so I think this is a reasonbly good list:
> 1.John 1598-1604
> 2.Robert, 3rd Lord Petre 1599-1638
> 3.Mary 1600-1640
> 4.William 1602-1677
> 5.Edward 1603-1664
> 6.Thomas 1606-
> 7.Katherine 1607-
> 8.Henry 1611-1648
> Eight children but no John born in 1617.........?
> The mother was born about 1575, aged 23 till age 36 she recorded as having children. In 1611 she stops for another six years and aged 42 she gives birth to John?
> There are between children 1,2 and 4 years. Why this long break between 1611 and 1617? Was Lord Petre absent?
> Can anyone shine a light on this mystery? Was there only one John or where there two?

Dear Leo,

I used Cracroft's Peerage website, which has John Petre, the first of Fithlers House, in the parish of Writtle, Essex, as "Hon John Petre, of Fidlers, co. Essex (d. 1696), mar. Elizabeth Pordage (d. 1658), dau. of Thomas Pordage, of Radmersham, and had issue", 5th son of William, 2nd Baron Petre & Lady Katherine Somerset:
http://www.cracroftspeerage.co.uk/online/content/petre1603.htm

The death date of 1696 is an error for 1690, as the bio for his son Benjamin Petre, titular bishop of Prusa in the old DB shows, "born 10 Aug. 1672, was son of John Petre (1617-1690) of Fidlers or Fithlers, Essex (who was a younger brother of William Petre [q. v.], the translator), by his second wife, Elizabeth, daughter of John Pincheon, esq., of Writtle in that county":
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Petre,_Benjamin_(DNB00)

The 1882 volume of 'Penal Laws and Test Act: Questions Touching Their Repeal Propounded in 1687' has a footnote by editor Sir George Floyd Duckett which states, "The Honble John Petre, was fourth son of William, second Lord Petre, by daughter of Earl of Worcester. He was of Fithelers, or Vithelers, alias Fidler's; ob. 1690, and is buried at Writtle (Morant)":
https://archive.org/stream/penallawsandtes01duckgoog#page/n413/mode/2up

A post to SocGenMed in 2002 by Cynthia Cochran Scheuer-Jones states, "They have Frances WHITE and John PETRE marrying about 1690 and John's death date as 15 May 1690. This was submitted by The Medieval Families Dept. of The Family History Center":
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.genealogy.medieval/2jw2nC4spe8/JUOuBmkod4QJ

So the death date of 1690 for the first John Petre of Fithlers is confirmed. He died 15 May 1690, and was buried at All Saints Church, Writtle, Essex.

But the 2002 post linked to above also states, "Frances [White's] husband, John [Petre] was son of Lord John PETRE and Mary WALDEGRAVE, and granson of Sir William PETRE, secretary to Queen Mary and Queen Elizabeth". But it is chronologically impossible for a son of the 1st Baron Petre to live until 1690, as he would have been close to 100 years old at his death. If the 1690 date of death for this John Petre is correct, there is no reason to doubt the DNB's date of birth for him as 1617, and so he fits better chronologically as a son of the 2nd Lord Petre.

Per the HOP bio of the 2nd Lord Petre, he had "7 surv[iving] s[ons], 3 surv[iving] da[ughters]":
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1558-1603/member/petre-william-1575-1637

So your list of six sons above (one of whom died in childhood) for the 2nd Lord Petre is not complete, and there should be room for another John who did live to adulthood, in addition to the firstborn John who died a child. I assumed this additional Hon. John Petre, younger son of the 2nd Baron Petre, was the John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690), just as Sir George Duckett in 1882 and Cracroft's Peerage did.

But it turns out me, Duckett & Cracroft's are wrong. For the Hon. John Petre who was a younger son of the 2nd Lord Petre was John Petre of Margaretting, Essex, who was buried 1669 at St Edmund & St Mary Church, Ingatestone, Essex:
https://archive.org/stream/ingatestoneande00wildgoog#page/n572/mode/2up/search/Margaretting

This is proven by the will of John Petre of Margaretting, written 12 November 1668, proved 3 June 1670, "I John Petre of Margareting in the Countie of Essex, Esq, Sonne to the Right honourable William Lord Petre deceased". The will is summarized here:
http://seax.essexcc.gov.uk/Result_Details.aspx?DocID=325536

An unsourced family tree on Ancestry.com gives this Hon. John Petre of Margaretting a birthdate of 10 April 1605, and a death date of 30 March 1669. The Select Essex Parish Registers, 1538-1900 database, also in Ancestry.com, has an entry for John Petre buried in Essex 18 April 1669, which matches with the 30 March 1669 unsourced death date.

So if John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690) was not the son of the 2nd Baron Petre, then who was his father?

Turns out a Petre pedigree from the Who Were the Nuns project has the answer. His father was John Petre of West Hanningfield, a younger son of the 1st Baron Petre:
http://wwtn.history.qmul.ac.uk/ftrees/Petre.pdf

This is confirmed by the 1668 will was of Hon. John Petre of Margaretting, who mentions, "to godson John Petre, junior (younger s. and h.app. of John Petre, sen., of Fithlers, esq.) and his heirs male". So John Petre of Fithlers was a kinsman, but not a brother or nephew, of Hon. John Petre.

The Tudor Place website has John Petre, the son of the 1st Baron Petre, born 4 September 1582 at Ingatestone Hall, and died 2 January 1623, buried New Chapel, Ingatestone. He married 1st about 1602 Catherine Morley, with one son John. He married 2nd about 1612 Dorothy Moore, with three sons by her, William, John & Augustine Petre.

This would be the "John Petre Esquor" buried at Ingatestone on 3 January 1622/3:
https://archive.org/stream/ingatestoneande00wildgoog#page/n570/mode/2up

His Alumni Oxonienses entry states he was age 8 when admitted to Exeter College on 28 May 1590, and that he died 2 Jan. 1622/3:
https://books.google.ca/books?id=COQUAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA1152&lpg=PA1152&dq=John+Petre+of+West+Hanningfield&source=bl&ots=6MsVoh03rG&sig=K69KlnA4brco8mMZcSvWHXhiv9c&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GfysVJ6iApbcoAS02IKgDA&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=John%20Petre%20of%20West%20Hanningfield&f=false

His will was proved 15 February 1623:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/addtobasket/D910653

Dorothy Moore, the widow of John Petre of West Hanningfield, married 2ndly, Sir Thomas Gerard, 2nd Baronet of Bryn (c.1584-1630), who has a bio in HOP, here:
http://www.historyofparliamentonline.org/volume/1604-1629/member/gerrard-sir-thomas-1584-1630

Further proof that John Petre of Handfield (Hanningfield?) Hall (1582-1623), husband of Dorothy Moore, and father of John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690), was indeed the son of John, 1st Lord Petre, is offered by the pedigree of Augustine Petre of Shenfield, Essex, youngest son of John Petre of West Hanningfield, taken at the 1664 Visitation:
https://archive.org/stream/visitationofcoun00byss#page/70/mode/2up

So Eliza Minto Canning loses Lady Katherine Somerset, daughter of the 4th Earl of Worcester, as an ancestor, and the correct line of descent goes,

Edward III had 4 sons, A1, X1, AA1 & DD1 (see below)
A1) John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster (1340-1399) m. three times, and had 2 daus A2 & T2, and a son V2 (see below)
A2) Lady Joan Beaufort, by 3rd wife (c.1377-1440) m. twice, and had 2 sons A3 & J3, and 3 daus M3, N3 & R3 (see below)
J3) Edward Neville, 3rd Lord Abergavenny, by 2nd husband (c.1417-1476) m. 1) Lady Elizabeth Beauchamp (see BB4 below), and had
J4) George Neville, 4th Lord Abergavenny (1440-1492) m. 1) Margaret Fenne (c.1444-1485), and had 2 sons J5 & K5 (see below)
K5) Sir Edward Neville of Addington Park (by1482-1538) m. Eleanor Windsor (d. 1531, descended from Edward I), and had
K6) Frances Neville (c.1525-1599) m. 1) Sir Edward Waldegrave of Sudbury (c.1517-1561), and had a dau K7 & a son L7 (see below)
K7) Mary Waldegrave (c.1552-1604) m. John, 1st Baron Petre (1549-1613), and had
K8) John Petre of West Hanningfield (1582-1623) m. 2) Dorothy Moore, and had
K9) John Petre of Fithlers House (1617-1690) m. 1) Elizabeth Pordage (d. 1658), and had
K10) John Petre of Fithlers House (1640-1698) m. Mary Mannock (see B12 above)

This reduces the total number of Edward III lines for Eliza Minto Canning by 10, at least.

Thank you, Leo, for bringing this up. At first I thought I'd be posting a correction to Ruvigny, but it turns out the old Marquis was the one who was correct!

Cheers, -----Brad

[Adrian via]

Visitation of Essex 1612 has two sons named John. The first is described as
"John Peter [sic] obiit in Sept. abowt 4 or 5 years of age a^o^ 1612" but I
think the 1612 refers to the date this was recorded (ie the date of the
visitation) not the date of death. The second John is sown as "John 4th
sonne." after Sr Robert, William and Edward but before Thomas, Henry and
George. John is the 4th living son.

Adrian

With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia

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[JohnnoH]

Some of what I have in my Sir William PETRE (Lord PETRE) notes:
He was Secretary of Ste to King Henry Vlll; King Edward Vl; Queen Mary l
and Queen Elizabeth l
1519 Petre matriculated in Law from Oxford University.
Lord William's first wife was Gertrude (nee TIRRELL/TYRRELL) daughter of Sir
John TYRRELL of Warley, Essex. They married c1533.
Gertrude died 28/5/1541. They had 3 daughters (1) unknown name (died in
infancy), (2) Dorothy & (3) Elizabeth who were very young at 1541 death of
Mother.
(Genealogics only shows Elizabeth)
Dorothy married Nicholas WADHAM and they had no issue.
Elizabeth married Thomas WROITHSLEY (1st Earl of Southampton) they had 8
children
namely: William; Anthony; Henry;Elizabeth; Mary; Katherine; Anne; & Mabel.
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
In 1519 Petre matriculated at the University of Oxford as a law student.
In 1523 he became a Fellow of All Souls, of which he was law bursar in
1528/9.
On 2 July 1526 he graduated Bachelor of both laws, and in 1527 and 1528
practised as a lawyer in Oxford.
(Source : C. S. Knighton, 'Petre, Sir William (1505/6-1572), administrator'
in Oxford Dictionary of National Biography (Oxford University Press, 2007)
Sir William was the owner of Sezincote House, Gloucestershire. >
http://www.sezincote.co.uk/about.php <
Note*** The current "Indian style" house is not the Jacobean house built by
Thomasyn/Thomasine Petre his daughter and her husband Ludovic Greville
1539 King Henry Vlll granted Sir William the manor of Ingatestone, Essex
Fine monument altar tomb measuring 7 feet by 4 feet in width within
Ingatestone church, Essex, England (between chancel and South chapel)
Made of Alabaster and other fine marble. Effigy of him and wife Ann upon the
top of it.

Ann BROWNE was Lord William Petre's 2nd wife.
Daughter of Sir William Browne (who died as Lord Mayor of London in 1514).
Anne was widow of Sir John Tirrell, of Heron Place Essex
Ann and William had two sons and 3 daughters, two of whom died early.
Of these, Thomasine, Sir John & Katherine survived.
Thomasine married Ludovic GREVILLE and had 7 children namely:
William; Sir Edward; John; Margarett; Charles; Peter & Valentine.
(On death of the son Charles on 6th Feb 1634, the senior GREVILLE line
became extinct).
Only Sir Edward GREVILLE & Margarett GREVILLE married.
Sir Edward GREVILLE to Joanne (nee BROMLEY) and had 10 children.
and
Margarett GREVILLE to Thomas BUSHELL and had Elizabeth BUSHELL

Notes I have for Thomasine are:
A:7:12, 1558, marriage settlement of Ludovic Greville and Thomasyn Petre,
with signature and seal of Sir William Petre;
FILE - Royal licence - ref. U269/T176/14 - date: 1562
[from Scope and Content] To take up livery to Ludovic Greville of the
property of his father Edward Greville
Essex records office shows following at ref Code D/DP/F1
1555-1561
Scope and Content Articles of Agreement, 1555, for the proposed marriage of
Thomasin, eldest daughter of Sir William Petre Kt.,
to Lodowick GREVILLE, s. and h. app. of Sir Edward GREVILLE, Kt., before
Midsummer, 1560,
`if the said Thomasyn will ther unto agree';Pre-nuptial Settlement, 1558, in
pursuance of the above; and Bill of Acquittance, 1561,
from Lodowick GREVILLE to Sir William Petre, on receipt of the final
instalment of £200, part of Thomasin's dowry of 1000 Marks.
[The dowry had been fixed at 600 marks and Sir William. was either to
procure some `advauncement or preferment'
for the younger children of Sir Edward GREVILLE or pay a further 400 marks.
By the Settlement Sir Edward GREVILLE entailed the manor of Drayton (co.
oxon).), properties in Welford (co. Glos.), manor of Meyne (co. Glos.)
and the manor of Seasencote[Sezincote] (co.Glos.), in fee or in reversion,
subject to certain financial provisos, on the intended husband and wife.)
++++
Thomasine's Will proved #175/1627 (GLS County Records Wills 1541-1800)
Shown as "Of Milcote".
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Sir John PETRE 1st Baron Petre married Mary WALDEGRAVE, daughter of Sir
Edward WALDEGRAVE and his wife Frances (nee NEVILLE
)Their son William became 2nd Baron PETRE and married Catherine SOMERSET.
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Katherine PETRE married Sir John GRAFTON of Grafton.
________________________________________________________________________________


Another source for marriage and her parents names is Collins Peerage of
England & Ireland pgs 6-7
"Adrian via" <gen-me...@rootsweb.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1.142064621...@rootsweb.com...

> Visitation of Essex 1612 has two sons named John. The first is described
> as "John Peter [sic] obiit in Sept. abowt 4 or 5 years of age a^o^ 1612"
> but I think the 1612 refers to the date this was recorded (ie the date of

> the visitation) not the date of death. The second John is shown as "John