A Valid Seljukid Descent
Kelsey J. Williams
Given the recent controversy over certain incorrect descents from the
Seljukid Sultans I thought it might be of some interest to present a
valid line from Kilic Arslan II to the Renaissance Venetian nobility:
1. Kilic Arslan II, Sultan of Ikonion. b. ca. 1115. d. 1192. (ODB
II: 1128; Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
2. Toghril Shah, Emir of Erzerum. r. 1201-1225. He is omitted in
Rudt-Collenberg's version of this descent. (Toumanoff, 453;
Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
3. Moughir-ed-Din, Emir of Erzerum. m. 1224 (Toumanoff) or 1228
(Rudt-Collenberg) to Rusudan I, Queen of Georgia, b. 1195, d. 1245.
(Toumanoff, 124, 453; Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
4. David IV Narin, co-King of Georgia & King of Imeret'i. d. 1293.
He may have m. and illegitimate daughter of Emperor Michael VIII
Palaiologos. (Toumanoff, 453).
5. Constantine I, King of Imeret'i. r. 1293-1326. (Toumanoff, 453).
6. Bagrat I the Little, Eristavi (Duke) of Imeret'i. r. 1330-1372.
m. 1358 to a daughter of Qwarqware II, Eristavi of Samtskhe.
(Toumanoff, 453).
7. Alexander I, Eristavi & King of Imeret'i. r. 1372-1389. m. to
Anna. (Toumanoff, 454).
8. T'amar, Princess of Imeret'i. d. after 1441. m. 1414/15 to
Alexander I the Great, King of Georgia. b. 1390. d. 1446.
(Toumanoff, 126, 454).
9. [daughter], Princess of Georgia. b. ca. 1412. d. before 1438. m.
1425 to Ioannes IV Komnenos, Emperor of Trebizond. r. 1429-1458.
(Toumanoff, 127; Sturdza, 281).
10. Valenza Komnene. See below. m. to Niccolo Crispo, Lord of
Santorini, Regent of the Duhcy of the Archipelago, 1447-1450. d.
1450. (Sturdza, 281, 512).
11a. Francesco II Crispo, Duke of the Archipelago. d. 1463. m.
twice.
11b. Domenico Crispo. d. young.
11c. Caterina Crispo. m. 1429 to Angelo II Gozzadini, Lord of
Thermia.
11d. Lucrezia Crispo. m. to Leone Malipiero.
11e. Petronella Crispo. m. 1437 to Jacopo di Nicolo Priuli.
11f. Maria Crispo. m. 1442 to Nicolo di Marino Balbi.
11g. Fiorenza Crispo. m. 1444 to Marco di Giorgio Cornaro.
11h. Valenza Crispo. m. 1446 to Giovanni di Luigi Loredano, Lord of
Antiparos.
11i. Marco Crispo, Knight of the Order of St. John.
11j. Violanta Crispo. m. 1453 to Caterino di Dragone Zeno.
11k. Antonio Crispo, Lord of Syra. d. 1476. m. a dau. of Pietro
Paterio, co-Lord of Chios.
(All the above is from Sturdza, 512).
This numerous brood left descendants throughout the Venetian nobility
and the Italian rulers of the Greek Archipelago. Although I haven't
attempted to trace any lines down to the present day I imagine there
must be many.
So far as I am aware the only possible weak link in the above
genealogy is Valenza Komnene whose existence has been questioned but
it apparently is nonetheless well-proven by Venetian sources. I
welcome any comments, corrections, additions, etc. to the above line.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Sources:
ODB = _The Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_, 3v. (Oxford, 1991).
Rudt-Collenberg = Count W.H. Rudt-Collenberg, _The Rupenides,
Hethumides and Lusignans: The Structure of the Armeno-Cilician
Dynasties_ (Paris, 1963).
Sturdza = Mihail-Dimitri Sturdza, _Dictionnaire Historique et
Genealogique des Grandes Familles de Grece, d'Albanie et de
Constantinople_ (Paris, 1983).
Toumanoff = Cyrille Toumanoff, _Manuel de Genealogie et de Chronologie
pour l'histoire de la Caucasie Chretienne (Armenie - Georgie -
Albanie)_ (Roma, 1976).
Pierre Aronax
"Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
> Greetings,
>
> Given the recent controversy over certain incorrect descents from the
> Seljukid Sultans I thought it might be of some interest to present a
> valid line from Kilic Arslan II to the Renaissance Venetian nobility:
>
> 1. Kilic Arslan II, Sultan of Ikonion. b. ca. 1115. d. 1192. (ODB
> II: 1128; Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
>
> 2. Toghril Shah, Emir of Erzerum. r. 1201-1225. He is omitted in
> Rudt-Collenberg's version of this descent. (Toumanoff, 453;
> Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
>
> 3. Moughir-ed-Din, Emir of Erzerum. m. 1224 (Toumanoff) or 1228
> (Rudt-Collenberg) to Rusudan I, Queen of Georgia, b. 1195, d. 1245.
> (Toumanoff, 124, 453; Rudt-Collenberg, tab. XIII [Q]).
>
> 4. David IV Narin, co-King of Georgia & King of Imeret'i. d. 1293.
> He may have m. and illegitimate daughter of Emperor Michael VIII
> Palaiologos. (Toumanoff, 453).
He did not: he married a daughter of Michael VIII's brother.
> 5. Constantine I, King of Imeret'i. r. 1293-1326. (Toumanoff, 453).
>
> 6. Bagrat I the Little, Eristavi (Duke) of Imeret'i. r. 1330-1372.
> m. 1358 to a daughter of Qwarqware II, Eristavi of Samtskhe.
> (Toumanoff, 453).
>
> 7. Alexander I, Eristavi & King of Imeret'i. r. 1372-1389. m. to
> Anna. (Toumanoff, 454).
>
> 8. T'amar, Princess of Imeret'i. d. after 1441. m. 1414/15 to
> Alexander I the Great, King of Georgia. b. 1390. d. 1446.
> (Toumanoff, 126, 454).
>
> 9. [daughter], Princess of Georgia. b. ca. 1412. d. before 1438. m.
> 1425 to Ioannes IV Komnenos, Emperor of Trebizond. r. 1429-1458.
> (Toumanoff, 127; Sturdza, 281).
>
> 10. Valenza Komnene. See below. m. to Niccolo Crispo, Lord of
> Santorini, Regent of the Duhcy of the Archipelago, 1447-1450. d.
> 1450. (Sturdza, 281, 512).
That doesn't work at all. Firstly, the ascendancy of Valenza is debatable:
see M. Kursanski, "Une alliance problématique au XVe siècle: le mariage de
Valenza Comnena, fille d'un empereur de Trébizonde, avec Niccolo Crispo,
seigneur de Santorin", Archéion Pontou 30 (1970). There is some arguments
for this marriage nevertheless. But, in any case, a Georgian princess born
ca. 1412 (born herself from a lady said to have married in 1414/5!) can not
be the grandmother of ladies who married in 1429, 1437 or 1444!
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
> > 10. Valenza Komnene. See below. m. to Niccolo Crispo, Lord of
> > Santorini, Regent of the Duhcy of the Archipelago, 1447-1450. d.
> > 1450. (Sturdza, 281, 512).
>
> That doesn't work at all. Firstly, the ascendancy of Valenza is debatable:
> see M. Kursanski, "Une alliance problématique au XVe siècle: le mariage de
> Valenza Comnena, fille d'un empereur de Trébizonde, avec Niccolo Crispo,
> seigneur de Santorin", Archéion Pontou 30 (1970). There is some arguments
> for this marriage nevertheless. But, in any case, a Georgian princess born
> ca. 1412 (born herself from a lady said to have married in 1414/5!) can
not
> be the grandmother of ladies who married in 1429, 1437 or 1444!
>
> Pierre
Niccolo Crispo may have married a lady called Valenza but her identity is
questionable.
It is unreasonable to assume that she was the daughter of John IV,
Megas-Komninos nicknamed "Kaloyannis", simply because he (John) allegedly
married in 1426. Allegedly he was born 1429 3 years after he got married.
His wife was born about 1410 and all his/her children were born before 1426,
the day they got married and before he was born.
I do not understand why there are so many versions about John, his marriage
and his children.
Another problem is that Niccolo Crispo had a daughter also called "Valenza".
This daughter married Giovanni Loredan in 1446.
I think that indicates that his wife may have had another name or was not of
Greek decent or died when the daughter was born.
I do not know another "Byzantine" lady with the first name "Valenza".
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:408a332a$0$7904$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
Kelsey J. Williams
> news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > Greetings,
> >
> > Given the recent controversy over certain incorrect descents from the
> > Seljukid Sultans I thought it might be of some interest to present a
> > valid line from Kilic Arslan II to the Renaissance Venetian nobility:
<snip>
> >
> > 8. T'amar, Princess of Imeret'i. d. after 1441. m. 1414/15 to
> > Alexander I the Great, King of Georgia. b. 1390. d. 1446.
> > (Toumanoff, 126, 454).
> >
> > 9. [daughter], Princess of Georgia. b. ca. 1412. d. before 1438. m.
> > 1425 to Ioannes IV Komnenos, Emperor of Trebizond. r. 1429-1458.
> > (Toumanoff, 127; Sturdza, 281).
> >
> > 10. Valenza Komnene. See below. m. to Niccolo Crispo, Lord of
> > Santorini, Regent of the Duhcy of the Archipelago, 1447-1450. d.
> > 1450. (Sturdza, 281, 512).
>
> That doesn't work at all. Firstly, the ascendancy of Valenza is debatable:
> see M. Kursanski, "Une alliance problématique au XVe siècle: le mariage de
> Valenza Comnena, fille d'un empereur de Trébizonde, avec Niccolo Crispo,
> seigneur de Santorin", Archéion Pontou 30 (1970). There is some arguments
> for this marriage nevertheless. But, in any case, a Georgian princess born
> ca. 1412 (born herself from a lady said to have married in 1414/5!) can not
> be the grandmother of ladies who married in 1429, 1437 or 1444!
>
> Pierre
You are quite right! I don't know why I didn't pay closer attention
to the chronology of the various sources I was using. Of course the
ca. 1412 birth and the 1414/15 marriage can be reconciled without too
much difficulty but the marriage dates of Niccolo & Valenza's
daughters seem to present a serious problem. I think that the root of
the problem lies with Sturdza's documentation of the Crispo genealogy.
He relies directly on Hopf for this line (he even reproduces Hopf's
tables) and I suppose this chronological impossibility could have
originated with Hopf who is known for that sort of thing.
I don't have access to _Archéion Pontou_. Could you possibily give me
a quick summary of the arguments presented by Kursanski? Thanks!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
David Hughes
not be father and daughter as you have them, but # 10 Valenza Komnene
is the sister [not daughter] of # 9 Ioannes IV Komnenos, Tyrant of
Trebizond
which of course invalidates your proposed line
nevertheless
consider the various theories on the identity of Theodora Comnena,
wife of Demetrius, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II, which will
give a valid Seljuk descent, any one of which seems feasible to me,
which are:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEORY A
07. Qilij-Arslan II, Sultan of Rum 1156-1188/92
08. Toghril-Shah, Emir of Erzerum (1201), yr bro of the sultan
09. Mujid-ud-din, Emir of Erzerum
= Rusudan, Queen of Georgia, d1245, dau of Queen Tamara I "The Great"
of Georgia [Iberia] & her 2nd husband David Soslan, co-ruler 1193-1207
10. David [VI] I "Narin", King of Georgia 1247-1259; Duke of Imeriti
1259-1293
[note: his three sisters were; Tamar [=1 Kai-Khushru II, Sultan of Rum
(d1245); =2 Sahib Parvan Muhi-ud-din (d1276)], Rusudan, wife of …, &
Katae [Irene], wife of …]
=1 Tamar Amanelidze; =2 Theodora, dau of either Iohannes Palaeologus
or Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII
11. Theodora, dau by 2nd =; widow of [name]
= Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
12. Eirene
= Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
(d1363/79), dau of Andronicus Asen (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King
of Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII] [his 1st
wife]
13. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410) [his bros were John & Demetre]
= Helena [Uros Comnena], dau of Iovan Urosh, titular Czar of Serbia
14. Eirene, she had a bro George Cantacuzene (d1459)
= Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEORY B
08. Kai-Khosroe II, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1236-1245
= Ghazia Khatun, dau of Yussuf Al-Nasir, Sultan of Aleppo 1237-1260,
son of Muhammed Al-Aziz, Sultan of Aleppo 1216-1237, son of
Ghiyath-ed-din Al-Zahir, Sultan of Aleppos 1193-1216, son of Saladin
"The Great", Sultan of Egypt 1169-1193; Damascus 1174-93; Aleppo,
Syria 1183-83; Jerusalem 1187-1193.
09. Jigda Khanum [Jihda-Hatun] (d1252), sis of Kai-Kaus II, Sultan of
Rum 1245-1255 & 1257-1261 (d1280?)
= David VII "Ulu, King of Georgia 1249-1270 [his 1st wife] [He =2
Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri
[Kachaberidze] (d1263), by whom he begot Demetre II, King of Georgia;
=3 Isukhan, dau of Noyan, a Mongol Prince; some say Demetre II was the
son of his father's 3rd wife Isukhan; she could have been just his
step-mother]
begot 3 daus:
(a) Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia"
= Manuel I of Trebizond
(b) Tamar
=1 Arghun Khan; =2 Sadun III, Prince of Kars (d1283), son of Sherbaruq
Mankaberdeli [her 2nd, & his 2nd]
(c) Theodora, possibly id. with:
10. Theodora, dau by 1st =
= Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
11. Eirene
= Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383
12. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410) [his bros were John & Demetre]
= Helena [Uros Comnena], dau of Iovan Urosh, titular Czar of Serbia
13. Eirene, she had a bro George Cantacuzene (d1459)
= Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THEORY C
10. Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia"
[note: another dau by 1st wife was [10] Tamar =1 Arghun Khan; =2 Sadun
III, Prince of Kars (d1283), son of Sherbaruq Mankaberdeli [her 2nd, &
his 2nd], & [10] Theodora]
= Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde [Trapezus], d1263 [his 2nd wife] [He
=1 Anna Xylaloe; =3 Irene Syracene]
11. Theodora (dau), Empress of Trebizonde 1284-5 dep, d. a nun
= Demetre II, King of Karthli [Georgia] 1273-1289 [son of David VII
"Ulu", King of Georgia, & his 2nd wife Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV
Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri [Kachaberidze] [his 1st =] [div. & =2
Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of Persia; =3 Natalie Djakeli, dau of
Bekka I Jagueli, Beg of Samatzkhe]
12. Rusudan, dau of 1st wife [her sisters were Jigda Khanum [2nd wife
of Bekka II Jaqueli, Beg of Samatzkhe, her 3rd =; she =1 Buga-Nojon;
=2 Taki Panaskerteli] & Theodora [wife of David VI/I "Narin", King of
Georgia, Duke of Imeriti]
= Bekka II Jaqueli, Beg of Samatzkhe [his 3rd =]; he =1 Kalthum, dau
of Farrukhzad II of Shirvan; =2 Jigda Khanum (above)
13. Djiadjak (dau)
= Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1330 [his 2nd =]
14. Basil I, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1332-1340
=2 Irene Megas [parentage unsure] [he =1 Irene, nat. dau of Byzantine
Emperor Andronicus III]
15. Theodora, sis of Alexis III, Tyrant of Trebizonde, widow of [name]
[perhaps Haji-Omar, Emir of Chalybe]
= Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
16. Eirene
= Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
(d1363/79), dau of Andronicus Asen (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King
of Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII] [his 1st
wife]
17. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410) [his bros were John & Demetre]
= Helena [Uros Comnena], dau of Iovan Urosh, titular Czar of Serbia
18. Eirene, she had a bro George Cantacuzene (d1459)
= Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOO, generation # 20, Marie, her surname is given as "Skanderbeg",
which means she can NOT be identified with Marie, dau of Stefan
Brankovic
17. Alexis IV, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1417-1429 dep [his sis, Eudoxia,
was the wife of Constantine Hypselantes, and mother of a dau, Eirene
= Theodora Cantacuzene
18. Helene, sis of John IV & David of Trebizonde
= George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 2nd =]
19. Irene
= Iovan [John] Castriota, Prince of Croatia 1468-1474, son of
Skanderbeg, Mpret [Czar] of Albania [his 2nd =; he =1 Irene, dau of
George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia, & his 2nd wife Irene Komnenosi,
dau of Alexis IV, Tyrant of Trebizonde]
20. Marie [her surname is "Skanderbeg", hence she can not be
identified with Marie, dau of Stefan Brankovic]
= Boniface [IV], Marq. of Montferrat (d1493) [his 2nd =][he =1 Helene]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
david hughes
Rdavi...@AOL.com
Pierre Aronax
Anyway, that doesn't work better if you take the problem only from the
Komnènos side. To have a Balentza [? strange name for a Byzantine princess]
Komnènè mother of the children you give to her, you need her to be born at
least in 1400 or before (since her first supposed daughter married in 1429).
Big problem since her supposed father John IV Komnènos is born after 1395...
> but the marriage dates of Niccolo & Valenza's
> daughters seem to present a serious problem. I think that the root of
> the problem lies with Sturdza's documentation of the Crispo genealogy.
> He relies directly on Hopf for this line (he even reproduces Hopf's
> tables) and I suppose this chronological impossibility could have
> originated with Hopf who is known for that sort of thing.
Or, more probably, the root of the problem can lie with Toumanoff's
unsourced lines for the Imeretian and Georgian dynasties. If you want to
retain the data he gave for them, you will have serious chronological (or
physiological) difficulties anyway. See that: if your Georgian princess who
married John IV was indeed born in 1412 (notwithstanding the date you gave
for her parents' marriage), then she can not have given him a daughter
before, at the best, 1428. This daughter herself can not have married before
1440 and can not have had a first child before ca 1445. But her supposed
husband died in 1450 and you say they had eleven children, which makes a
ratio of more than two children by year!
> I don't have access to _Archéion Pontou_. Could you possibily give me
> a quick summary of the arguments presented by Kursanski? Thanks!
I don't have more acces to this revue, but I have a photocopy of Kursanski's
article somewhere. I will try to find it and give a summary.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
> in your "Valid Seljukid Descent", your generations # 9 and # 10 should
> not be father and daughter as you have them, but # 10 Valenza Komnene
> is the sister [not daughter] of # 9 Ioannes IV Komnenos,
Extraordinary! You have find a new source or something? Because, as
far as I know, the only source we have about this suspect alliance
makes of the alleged Komnènè who married a Crispo the daughter of
Iôannès IV, not his sister.
> Tyrant of
> Trebizond
I also hope some day you will explain us why you always label all the
rulers of Trebizond as "tyrants"...
<...>
> 10. David [VI] I "Narin", King of Georgia 1247-1259; Duke of Imeriti
> 1259-1293
> [note: his three sisters were; Tamar [=1 Kai-Khushru II, Sultan of Rum
> (d1245); =2 Sahib Parvan Muhi-ud-din (d1276)], Rusudan, wife of ?, &
> Katae [Irene], wife of ?]
> =1 Tamar Amanelidze; =2 Theodora, dau of either Iohannes Palaeologus
> or Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII
> 11. Theodora, dau by 2nd =; widow of [name]
> = Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
That is extraordinary! Nothing, absolutely nothing is known for sure
about the wife of Dèmètrios Palaiologos, and you, you have not only
her name but also the name of her father and even the name of her
mother! Could you be so kind to provide a source for such novelties or
is it below you to go into that kind of trivialities? Incidently, that
is simply impossible: you make of Théodôra the wife of her second
cousin, a marriage strictly forbiden by the Orthodox Church. There
would be also a problem to make of Théodôra the daughter of an other
Théodôra, but that is not really an objection since you invented the
name of David's wife, which is not given by the sources. I don't even
speak of the chronological problems that would imply...
As I already explained, Dèmètrios' wife MIGHT have been a Théodôra
Komnènè. Of course, even if such is indeed the case, that does not
make her a daughter of an emperor of Trebizond for that. And I see
really absolutely NO reason to make her the daughter of a King of
Georgia.
> 12. Eirene
> = Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
> Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
> (d1363/79), dau of Andronicus Asen (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King
> of Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII] [his 1st
> wife]
As already explained many times, no source makes of Théodôros
Kantakouzènos a son of Matthaios, although that is not impossible.
<...>
> THEORY B
This one is even better!
<...>
> 09. Jigda Khanum [Jihda-Hatun] (d1252), sis of Kai-Kaus II, Sultan of
> Rum 1245-1255 & 1257-1261 (d1280?)
> = David VII "Ulu, King of Georgia 1249-1270 [his 1st wife] [He =2
<...>
> (c) Theodora, possibly id. with:
> 10. Theodora, dau by 1st =
> = Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
So here we are asked to consider a theory were a woman who is supposed
to have been dead in 1252 would be the mother of a lady married with a
man born around 1300... and of course she would have given him a child
when she was around 70 years old! What is the basis for this delirious
theory? Nothing it seems, except the fact that David VII has perhaps a
daughter called Théodôra and the fact that Dèmètrios' wife was perhaps
called Théodôra... what a coincidence really!
> THEORY C
<...>
> 12. Rusudan, dau of 1st wife [her sisters were Jigda Khanum [2nd wife
> of Bekka II Jaqueli, Beg of Samatzkhe, her 3rd =; she =1 Buga-Nojon;
> =2 Taki Panaskerteli] & Theodora [wife of David VI/I "Narin", King of
> Georgia, Duke of Imeriti]
> = Bekka II Jaqueli, Beg of Samatzkhe [his 3rd =]; he =1 Kalthum, dau
> of Farrukhzad II of Shirvan; =2 Jigda Khanum (above)
> 13. Djiadjak (dau)
> = Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1330 [his 2nd =]
> 14. Basil I, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1332-1340
> =2 Irene Megas [parentage unsure] [he =1 Irene, nat. dau of Byzantine
> Emperor Andronicus III]
> 15. Theodora, sis of Alexis III, Tyrant of Trebizonde, widow of [name]
> [perhaps Haji-Omar, Emir of Chalybe]
> = Demetrius, Prince, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
Err... Eirènès' mother (the supposed 'Théodôra') must be born before
ca 1305 at least: this lady can obviously not be a granddaughter of
Alexios II, born in 1283, particularly considering that he married the
daughter of Bekha Jaqeli in 1299 (all the dates are from Panarétos,
the major source about the Komnènoi of Trebizond).
> 16. Eirene
> = Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
> Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
> (d1363/79), dau of Andronicus Asen (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King
> of Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII] [his 1st
> wife]
> 17. Theodore Cantacuzene (d1410) [his bros were John & Demetre]
> = Helena [Uros Comnena], dau of Iovan Urosh, titular Czar of Serbia
> 18. Eirene, she had a bro George Cantacuzene (d1459)
> = Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TOO, generation # 20, Marie, her surname is given as "Skanderbeg",
By what source please?
> which means she can NOT be identified with Marie, dau of Stefan
> Brankovic
>
> 17. Alexis IV, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1417-1429 dep [his sis, Eudoxia,
> was the wife of Constantine Hypselantes, and mother of a dau, Eirene
Source?
> = Theodora Cantacuzene
> 18. Helene,
> sis of John IV & David of Trebizonde
> = George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 2nd =]
Source for that marriage? (None of course since such sister of John IV
never existed).
> 19. Irene
> = Iovan [John] Castriota, Prince of Croatia 1468-1474, son of
> Skanderbeg, Mpret [Czar] of Albania [his 2nd =; he =1 Irene, dau of
> George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia, & his 2nd wife Irene Komnenosi,
> dau of Alexis IV, Tyrant of Trebizonde]
> 20. Marie [her surname is "Skanderbeg",
Your claim: prove it.
> hence she can not be
> identified with Marie, dau of Stefan Brankovic]
> = Boniface [IV], Marq. of Montferrat (d1493) [his 2nd =][he =1 Helene]
To conclude: not serious, you have a D-.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
> > > 10. Valenza Komnene. See below. m. to Niccolo Crispo, Lord of
> > > Santorini, Regent of the Duhcy of the Archipelago, 1447-1450. d.
> > > 1450. (Sturdza, 281, 512).
> >
> > That doesn't work at all. Firstly, the ascendancy of Valenza is debatable:
> > see M. Kursanski, "Une alliance problématique au XVe siècle: le mariage de
> > Valenza Comnena, fille d'un empereur de Trébizonde, avec Niccolo Crispo,
> > seigneur de Santorin", Archéion Pontou 30 (1970). There is some arguments
> > for this marriage nevertheless. But, in any case, a Georgian princess born
> > ca. 1412 (born herself from a lady said to have married in 1414/5!) can
> not
> > be the grandmother of ladies who married in 1429, 1437 or 1444!
> >
> > Pierre
>
> Niccolo Crispo may have married a lady called Valenza but her identity is
> questionable.
>
> It is unreasonable to assume that she was the daughter of John IV,
> Megas-Komninos nicknamed "Kaloyannis",
That is also my impression (see above). Nevertheless, we have a source
which says she was, and we must live with that.
> simply because he (John) allegedly
> married in 1426.
Just by curiosity: how do you know that? I am not aware of any source
given the exact date of his marriage.
> Allegedly he
She?
> was born 1429 3 years after he got married.
Same question: how do you know the date of birth of a lady whose
existence you dismiss?
> His wife was born about 1410 and all his/her children were born before 1426,
Same question: how do you know that? Even if that is true (quite
possible since his daughter Theodôra must be born few before 1440),
how do you know that John IV did not have illegitimate daughters
before his marriage? Nobody said that this Valenza must be a
legitimate daughter after all.
> the day they got married and before he was born.
> I do not understand why there are so many versions about John, his marriage
> and his children.
Perhaps because we have few sources.
> Another problem is that Niccolo Crispo had a daughter also called "Valenza".
> This daughter married Giovanni Loredan in 1446.
> I think that indicates that his wife may have had another name or was not of
> Greek decent or died when the daughter was born.
Good reasoning: I follow you on that.
> I do not know another "Byzantine" lady with the first name "Valenza".
Neither do I. I must point nevertheless that a family with the name
"Balentziakos" is well attested in the area of Trebizond during the
13th and 14th century.
It is not impossible that a daughter of John IV received the name
"Valenza" when she married a Latin. We have many example of the
reverse.
But I agree that, before going into speculation about her name, it
would be better to be sure that she indeed existed.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:6779ec44.04042...@posting.google.com...
> "George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
news:<Jisic.7786$qq6...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
<...>
> > simply because he (John) allegedly
> > married in 1426.
<...>
> > His wife was born about 1410 and all his/her children were born before
1426,
>
> Same question: how do you know that? Even if that is true (quite
> possible since his daughter Theodôra must be born few before 1440),
<...>
Of course, I assumed you mean here that his children were born AFTER 1426
(and not before as you wrote probably by error). Or have I missed something?
Pierre
Kelsey J. Williams
Yes, you are right. It is quite clear to me now that I must review
the primary sources and secondary literature concerning Georgia and
Trebizond to sort out the correct linkages between these people. I
wonder if Valenza (if she was even a Komnene at all which seems
dubious now) might fit better as a sister of Ioannes IV? If she was
his sister that would still eliminate the Seljukid descent though.
I do apologize for offering up such a flawed line. Clearly I was
following the descent through secondary sources without paying
attention to chronological impossibilities. In the future I will aim
to check my posts more thoroughly and to beware of undocumented tables
like Sturdza's and Toumanoff's.
>
> > I don't have access to _Archéion Pontou_. Could you possibily give me
> > a quick summary of the arguments presented by Kursanski? Thanks!
>
> I don't have more acces to this revue, but I have a photocopy of Kursanski's
> article somewhere. I will try to find it and give a summary.
Thanks!
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
>
> Pierre
Kelsey J. Williams
> not be father and daughter as you have them, but # 10 Valenza Komnene
> is the sister [not daughter] of # 9 Ioannes IV Komnenos, Tyrant of
> Trebizond
> which of course invalidates your proposed line
Yes, this does seem possible, if she was actually a Megale Komnene. I
apologize for the "valid" descent which is now obviously incorrect!
> nevertheless
> consider the various theories on the identity of Theodora Comnena,
> wife of Demetrius, son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II, which will
> give a valid Seljuk descent, any one of which seems feasible to me,
> which are:
If any of these descents are correct that would be an excellent
Byzantine-Georgian-Seljukid connection. My main concern with all of
them though is that there doesn't seem to be sufficient evidence for
Theodora's parentage or even for her name. If a source could be
located which implies the Georgian connection in some way that would
clear up the current uncertainty.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<snip>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TOO, generation # 20, Marie, her surname is given as "Skanderbeg",
> which means she can NOT be identified with Marie, dau of Stefan
> Brankovic
What is your source for "Skanderbeg"? Every secondary source I've
consulted shows her to be a Brankovic.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Pierre Aronax
"Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
news:<408a755f$0$9307$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>...
> It is quite clear to me now that I must review
> the primary sources and secondary literature concerning Georgia and
> Trebizond to sort out the correct linkages between these people. I
> wonder if Valenza (if she was even a Komnene at all which seems
> dubious now) might fit better as a sister of Ioannes IV? If she was
> his sister that would still eliminate the Seljukid descent though.
I must find the article of Kursanski and see again the source (which, if I
am not wrong, is the narrative of a Venetian travel preserved in a modern
compilation) but, IIRC, this source tells explicitly that the Byzantine lady
who married a Crispo was the daughter of John IV, and not his sister or
simply a Komnčnč lady. I don't think it would be of good method to accept
the fact that she existed, but to dismiss the fact that she was John IV's
daughter, since that is one and the same fact in the source. At least, we
need an other piece of evidence to practice this kind of surgery with a
source, and as far as I know there is no other one.
All this obviously need further examination. Nevertheless, I always
considered it was the less absurd genealogical connection proposed until now
between Trebizond and the West. But the Seljukid descent seems clearly more
difficult to accept. If this Valenza or whatever was her name was a daughter
of John IV, she must have been an illegitimate daughter or something like
that and she can not have had the daughters given to her, at least not all
of them, or not with this dates.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
> (and not before as you wrote probably by error). Or have I missed
something?
As I said, Allegedly they married 1426 but three of the four children were
born before 1415 (Theodora, Valenca and Alexios) (As I said Allegedly).
The third daughter Caterina ALLAGEDLY was born About 1438.
There are another two problems in this family:
1. John IV married twice:
Firstly (1426), a daughter of Alexandros, King of Iberia and Thamar
Princess of Georgia (although dates of birth or death or marriage are not
given for the parents, her birth date is given as about 1410)
Secondly, a Lady from Turkey (meaning a Moslem lady).
2. The marriages of the two daughters.
Theodora (died after 1478) married Hasan Aggeyunlu nicknamed "UZUN"
The second daughter Caterina (Despina Khatum) born about 1438; married 1458
Hasan, Ali, Lord of the White Sheep, Also nicknamed "UZUN".
If UZUN is a nickname, than the two sisters married persons with the same
first name (HASAN) and the same nickname (UZUN).
That does not sound right
The names and dates I have are going back some 40 years. I would like to
update them but there is nothing else out there.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:408add25$0$12107$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net...
>
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:6779ec44.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > "George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
> news:<Jisic.7786$qq6...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
>
> <...>
> > > simply because he (John) allegedly
> > > married in 1426.
> <...>
> > > His wife was born about 1410 and all his/her children were born before
> 1426,
> >
> > Same question: how do you know that? Even if that is true (quite
> > possible since his daughter Theodôra must be born few before 1440),
> <...>
>
>
> Pierre
>
>
Jwc...@aol.com
One Quick Question; I saw parts of an article
concerning the many Muslim ( primarily at least) descendants of a certain Theodora
Comnena in the new `The Genealogist magazine a couple of years ago; They
apparently included the Shahs of Persia and the Mughal Emperors of India as well as
I believe , the Aga Khans. Does this lady tie in in any fashion with the
desired Seljukid- Bagration- Trebizond lineages ?
sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Pierre Aronax
<Jwc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:113.31d611...@aol.com...
Yes: she is a daughter of John IV Komnènos of Trebizond. This link at least
is sure, and so is the line from the Komnènoi to the Muslim dynasties you
mentioned. But it is not sure at all that Théodôra was born from John's
(first?) wife, daughter of the King of Georgia: she is generally considered
to be born from an other wife, of Turkish background. On that point also the
sources must be checked.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
> > Of course, I assumed you mean here that his children were born AFTER 1426
> > (and not before as you wrote probably by error). Or have I missed
> something?
>
> As I said, Allegedly they married 1426 but three of the four children were
> born before 1415 (Theodora, Valenca and Alexios) (As I said Allegedly).
> The third daughter Caterina ALLAGEDLY was born About 1438.
Yes yes, you say that, but you don't provide any source so it is not
very useful. Of course, Théodôra at least can NOT be born before 1415
since she was married in 1458! I suspect the same is true for John's
other children.
> There are another two problems in this family:
> 1. John IV married twice:
> Firstly (1426), a daughter of Alexandros, King of Iberia and Thamar
> Princess of Georgia (although dates of birth or death or marriage are not
> given for the parents, her birth date is given as about 1410)
I would be curious to know the source for this date of 1426: I can see
no one. As far as I know, we know of the marriage of John IV with a
Georgian princess only by Chalkokandylès, who gives no date.
> Secondly, a Lady from Turkey (meaning a Moslem lady).
At least, the Spanish travler Pero Tafur, who visited Trebizond in
1438, says that the emperor was married with a Turkish lady at that
time. Considering the date of Théodôra's marriage (1458), she must be
born from this second marriage: see M. Kursanskis, "Autour de la
dernière princesse de Trébizonde: Théodora, fille de Jean IV et épouse
d'Uzun Hasan",in Archeion Pontou, 34 (1977-1978), p. 77.
> 2. The marriages of the two daughters.
> Theodora (died after 1478) married Hasan Aggeyunlu nicknamed "UZUN"
> The second daughter Caterina (Despina Khatum) born about 1438; married 1458
> Hasan, Ali, Lord of the White Sheep, Also nicknamed "UZUN".
> If UZUN is a nickname, than the two sisters married persons with the same
> first name (HASAN) and the same nickname (UZUN).
> That does not sound right
You simply make two ladies where there is only one: Théodôra was
called "Caterina" by 19th century historians who misinterpreted her
title of "despoina khatun": it was deformed in "despina caton" by the
Venetian travler who met her in 1478, and "caton" was interpreted
wrongly as an abreviation of Aikaterina. There is simply no daughter
of John IV named like that. The only daughters of this sovereign known
by sources are Theodora and the lady who is said to have married a
Crispo.
>
<...>
> > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message de
> > news:6779ec44.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > > "George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:<Jisic.7786$qq6...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
> >
> > <...>
> > > > simply because he (John) allegedly
> > > > married in 1426.
> <...>
> > > > His wife was born about 1410 and all his/her children were born before
> 1426,
> > >
> > > Same question: how do you know that? Even if that is true (quite
> > > possible since his daughter Theodôra must be born few before 1440),
> > <...>
Question still open.
Pierre
Kelsey J. Williams
> "Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
> news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
> > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<408a755f$0$9307$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>...
>
> > It is quite clear to me now that I must review
> > the primary sources and secondary literature concerning Georgia and
> > Trebizond to sort out the correct linkages between these people. I
> > wonder if Valenza (if she was even a Komnene at all which seems
> > dubious now) might fit better as a sister of Ioannes IV? If she was
> > his sister that would still eliminate the Seljukid descent though.
>
> I must find the article of Kursanski and see again the source (which, if I
> am not wrong, is the narrative of a Venetian travel preserved in a modern
> compilation) but, IIRC, this source tells explicitly that the Byzantine lady
> who married a Crispo was the daughter of John IV, and not his sister or
> simply a Komnčnč lady. I don't think it would be of good method to accept
> the fact that she existed, but to dismiss the fact that she was John IV's
> daughter, since that is one and the same fact in the source. At least, we
> need an other piece of evidence to practice this kind of surgery with a
> source, and as far as I know there is no other one.
I thought that perhaps the source only called her "daughter of the
Emperor of Trebizond." If it calls her daughter of Ioannes IV then
there is no reason to think of her as his sister (unless further
evidence comes to light).
>
> All this obviously need further examination. Nevertheless, I always
> considered it was the less absurd genealogical connection proposed until now
> between Trebizond and the West. But the Seljukid descent seems clearly more
> difficult to accept. If this Valenza or whatever was her name was a daughter
> of John IV, she must have been an illegitimate daughter or something like
> that and she can not have had the daughters given to her, at least not all
> of them, or not with this dates.
Even if she was illegitimate the chronology would still be too tight
between Ioannes and his supposed Crispo grandchildren. One possible
explanation might be that Niccolo's children are by another wife and
that he only married Valenza shortly before his death. Of course that
is just speculation.
Kelsey J. Williams
Both Sturdza and Toumanoff give accounts of this family which seem
conflicting and unreliable but it may be worthwhile to post them here
for consideration:
TOUMANOFF (p. 508):
Jean IV Caloioannes, Emperor (1429-1458), co-Emperor (aft. 1417-1429).
m. 1425 to Dau. of Alexandre I, King of Georgia, b. ca. 1412, d. bef.
1438.
1. Alexis. b. 1454. d. 1 Nov 1463.
2. Catherine. m. 1458 to Ouzoun-Hasan, Khan of the Aq-Qoyounlou
(1466-1478)
3. Theodora. fiancee 1451 to Emperor Constantin XI.
STURDZA (p. 281):
Jean IV Kaloyan, Emperor (1446-1458). m. to Dau. of Alexandre, King
of Iberia & Thamar, dau. of Alexandre of Imeret'i.
1. Theodora. fiancee 1451 to Constantin XI.
2. Catherine (Despine Khatoun). m. 1458 to Ouzoun Hassan of Diar
bekir, Chief of the Turcomans of the Horde of the White Sheep [i.e.
Aq-Qoyounlou].
3. Valenza. m. Niccolo Crispo.
4. Alexios. Execute par les Turcs vers 1470.
Neither indicates a second marriage for Ioannes but such seems almost
certain if he had a son born in 1454. It would seem reasonable though
for Theodora and Katherina to be full sisters and the children of his
Georgian wife.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
"George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> wrote in message news:<OICic.8216$qq6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>...
Jwc...@aol.com
Merci. of Course, Ioannes IV, Emperor of Trebizond
was himself of partly Georgian ancestry, if genealogy euweb.cz is to be at
all believed as byzant 2 (Comnene) lists his grandmother, the wife of Manuel III
as Gulkan / Eudokia,a daughter of King David Vlll / IX of Georgia. It would
be remarkable if Ioannes IV`s turkish lady proved to be a daughter of Ma`sud
III of rhe Rum Seljuqs ( ruled 1307 / 707 according to C E Bosworth`s ` the
Islamic Dynasties pg 130), but in truth there were so many Turkish dynasts and She
might have belonged to any one of them.
Pierre Aronax
"Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<...>
> > I must find the article of Kursanski and see again the source (which, if
I
> > am not wrong, is the narrative of a Venetian travel preserved in a
modern
> > compilation) but, IIRC, this source tells explicitly that the Byzantine
lady
> > who married a Crispo was the daughter of John IV, and not his sister or
> > simply a Komnčnč lady. I don't think it would be of good method to
accept
> > the fact that she existed, but to dismiss the fact that she was John
IV's
> > daughter, since that is one and the same fact in the source. At least,
we
> > need an other piece of evidence to practice this kind of surgery with a
> > source, and as far as I know there is no other one.
>
> I thought that perhaps the source only called her "daughter of the
> Emperor of Trebizond." If it calls her daughter of Ioannes IV then
> there is no reason to think of her as his sister (unless further
> evidence comes to light).
I must check of course, but I am sure that the source says her a daughter of
the empereur Kaloiannčs of Trebizond, who can only be Iôannčs IV.
> > All this obviously need further examination. Nevertheless, I always
> > considered it was the less absurd genealogical connection proposed until
now
> > between Trebizond and the West. But the Seljukid descent seems clearly
more
> > difficult to accept. If this Valenza or whatever was her name was a
daughter
> > of John IV, she must have been an illegitimate daughter or something
like
> > that and she can not have had the daughters given to her, at least not
all
> > of them, or not with this dates.
>
> Even if she was illegitimate the chronology would still be too tight
> between Ioannes and his supposed Crispo grandchildren. One possible
> explanation might be that Niccolo's children are by another wife and
> that he only married Valenza shortly before his death. Of course that
> is just speculation.
I was speculating something of that kind: that's why I said that she can not
have had the daughters given to her by the second-hand genealogies.
Nevertheless, it is also possible that she simply never existed.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
> Hello,
>
> Both Sturdza and Toumanoff give accounts of this family which seem
> conflicting and unreliable but it may be worthwhile to post them here
> for consideration:
>
> TOUMANOFF (p. 508):
>
> Jean IV Caloioannes, Emperor (1429-1458), co-Emperor (aft. 1417-1429).
> m. 1425 to Dau. of Alexandre I, King of Georgia, b. ca. 1412, d. bef.
> 1438.
>
> 1. Alexis. b. 1454. d. 1 Nov 1463.
> 2. Catherine. m. 1458 to Ouzoun-Hasan, Khan of the Aq-Qoyounlou
> (1466-1478)
As I said in my post, this Catherine never existed: it is a confusion with
Théodôra. Aikaterina is not a name for a Byzantine princess anyway.
> 3. Theodora. fiancee 1451 to Emperor Constantin XI.
I must check but I suspect no source gives the name of the fiancée of
Constantin XI.
> STURDZA (p. 281):
>
> Jean IV Kaloyan, Emperor (1446-1458). m. to Dau. of Alexandre, King
> of Iberia & Thamar, dau. of Alexandre of Imeret'i.
>
> 1. Theodora. fiancee 1451 to Constantin XI.
> 2. Catherine (Despine Khatoun). m. 1458 to Ouzoun Hassan of Diar
> bekir, Chief of the Turcomans of the Horde of the White Sheep [i.e.
> Aq-Qoyounlou].
See above.
> 3. Valenza. m. Niccolo Crispo.
> 4. Alexios. Execute par les Turcs vers 1470.
>
> Neither indicates a second marriage for Ioannes but such seems almost
> certain if he had a son born in 1454. It would seem reasonable though
> for Theodora and Katherina
The Greek form would be Aikatherina, not Katherina.
> to be full sisters and the children of his
> Georgian wife.
As I said, the Spanish traveler Pero Tafur gives to John IV a Turkish wife
in 1438: that is the only source for the death of his Georgian wife before
that date. Theodora is considered a daughter of this second wife, on the
base of his probable age (considering the date of her marriage). "Catherine"
does not exist. On the son, I thought he was supposed to have died BEFORE is
father, but it would be better to check the source (which, if memory serves,
must be Chalkokandylès).
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
<Jwc...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:1e3.1e8896...@aol.com...
> Dear Pierre et als,
> Merci. of Course, Ioannes IV, Emperor of
Trebizond
> was himself of partly Georgian ancestry, if genealogy euweb.cz is to be at
> all believed as byzant 2 (Comnene) lists his grandmother, the wife of
Manuel III
> as Gulkan / Eudokia,a daughter of King David Vlll / IX of Georgia.
Of course you are right, but that does not give him a Seljukid ascendancy,
which was the initial point, since this David was not a descendant of the
line of the kings of Imereti.
> It would
> be remarkable if Ioannes IV`s turkish lady proved to be a daughter of
Ma`sud
> III of rhe Rum Seljuqs ( ruled 1307 / 707 according to C E Bosworth`s `
the
> Islamic Dynasties pg 130), but in truth there were so many Turkish dynasts
and She
> might have belonged to any one of them.
She can not since she must be born more than a century later. Unfortunately,
nothing is know of her background.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
> "Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> a écrit dans le message de
> news:5b747dd9.04042...@posting.google.com...
<...>
> > 3. Theodora. fiancee 1451 to Emperor Constantin XI.
>
> I must check but I suspect no source gives the name of the fiancée of
> Constantin XI.
<...>
Wait a minute: who said that Constantin XI had ever actually a
Trapezuntan fiancée anyway? Sphrantzès was sent in 1451 to Trebizond
and Georgia to find a suitable wife for the emperor, but that's all:
as far as Sphrantzès himself reveals, the only particular lady of
Trapezuntan background then considered as a possible fiancée was not
the daughter but the cousin (exadelphè) of John IV, the widow of the
Sultan, Mara Brankovic (as I said in an other post, she was her cousin
because their mothers were sisters). Anyway, it staid a simple
project, rapidly abandoned, as were abandoned the general negotiations
with the emperor of Trebizond, and the fiancée finally chosen was the
daughter of the King of Georgia. The only conclusion one can
eventually risks is that John IV had relatives (a daughter, that is
not even sure) in age to be married.
The tables of Sturdza and Toumanoff, who pretend to give the name of
the lady obviously without any source, are definitely a very feeble
base for a genealogical speculation.
Pierre
Kelsey J. Williams
<snip>
> The tables of Sturdza and Toumanoff, who pretend to give the name of
> the lady obviously without any source, are definitely a very feeble
> base for a genealogical speculation.
>
> Pierre
Yes, they seem to be rife with errors. It would appear that both of
them were rather over enthusiastic in making unjustified assumptions.
However, the genealogical data on Ioannes IV which can be gleaned from
the entry concerning him in the _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (3:
1048) could act as a more useful starting point:
Ioannes IV Komnenos, Emperor of Trebizond (1429-1459/60?), b. before
1403 (Kursankis) or ca. 1404/05, died 1460, son of Alexios IV Komnenos
and Theodora Kantakouzene. He married a daughter of Alexander I of
Georgia before 1427 but had a second, Turkish, wife also.
Most importantly, the ODB gives a bibliographical reference which
looks to be of key importance for a proper understanding of this
family: M. Kursankis, "La descendance d'Alexis IV, empereur de
Trebizonde", _Revue des etudes byzantines_ 37 (1979), 239-47.
Unfortunately I don't have access to REB but if someone did this would
probably aid in clearing up some of the misinformation in other
sources.
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Pierre Aronax
> pierre...@hotmail.com (Pierre Aronax) wrote in message
news:<6779ec44.04042...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > The tables of Sturdza and Toumanoff, who pretend to give the name of
> > the lady obviously without any source, are definitely a very feeble
> > base for a genealogical speculation.
> >
> > Pierre
>
> Yes, they seem to be rife with errors. It would appear that both of
> them were rather over enthusiastic in making unjustified assumptions.
> However, the genealogical data on Ioannes IV which can be gleaned from
> the entry concerning him in the _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (3:
> 1048) could act as a more useful starting point:
>
> Ioannes IV Komnenos, Emperor of Trebizond (1429-1459/60?), b. before
> 1403 (Kursankis) or ca. 1404/05,
The already mentioned article by Ganchou is also useful on that point. Some
historians supposed Iôannčs was born in 1404 or 1405 (since he can hardly
have been born later) because the edition of the travels of Clavijo said
that in 1404 Alexios IV had only two little daughters. But this was an
error, and the correct text given in a beter edition speaks of two little
sons, and not daughters. So Iôannčs IV must be born BEFORE 1404, and
probably not in 1403 since Clavijo obviously does not speak of babies and
since Alexios IV had already two sons. Considering the date of marriage of
his parents, and the fact that his mother Théodôra was probably very young
when she married in 1395 (she must have been born around 1383, like her
husband), Iôannčs was probably born ca 1400, and so was a little boy of
around four of five years when Clavijo saw him.
> died 1460,
Actually, Iôannčs IV died in 1461, as has been demonstrated in an other
article by T. Ganchou, "La date de la mort du basileus de Trébizonde Jean IV
Komnčnos", Bizantinische Zeitschrift, 93 (2000).
> son of Alexios IV Komnenos
> and Theodora Kantakouzene. He married a daughter of Alexander I of
> Georgia before 1427 but had a second, Turkish, wife also.
BEFORE 1427 and not IN 1426 as we have been said here. It was also how I
understand it: we have not a precise date for this marriage.
Pierre
George Tsambourakis
I can now correct this.
If I understand you, she was named "Theodora".
She was called "Caterina" by Historians.
In other words, "Caterina" is a fictitious name.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news:830jc.12668$qq6....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Thanks,
> I can now correct this.
> If I understand you, she was named "Theodora".
> She was called "Caterina" by Historians.
> In other words, "Caterina" is a fictitious name.
Exactly. More precisely it is a title ("khatun") who was wrongly interpreted
as a shortening of the surname "Caterina".
Pierre
Jwc...@aol.com
I recently read an on-line
encyplopedic article on the Empire of Trebizond and noted that John IV, attempting to
stave off Ottoman conquest made the following alliances, 1) A daughter in
marriage to his brother- in- law `Ali Beg`s son Uzun Hasan of the White Sheep,
alliances with the King and Princes of Georgia, alliances with the the turkish
Emirs of Sinope and Karamania information also in` Der Munzen der Komnenen von
Trapezunt by Otto Retowski. Mehmet II isolated Trebizond by neutralizing Uzun
Hasan and then conquering the Emir of Sinope in 1461 before going across
Armenia to Trebizond.. Unknown if John 1V`s 2nd wife was a part of cementing an
alliance.
George Tsambourakis
> 1403 (Kursankis) or ca. 1404/05, died 1460, son of Alexios IV Komnenos
> and Theodora Kantakouzene. He married a daughter of Alexander I of
> Georgia before 1427 but had a second, Turkish, wife also.
He was the emperor of Trapizond from 1446 to 1458 (the year he died).
His father was murdered the 28th of October 1429 (The year he allegedly was
born)
David, his brother was the Emperor after his death from 1458-1461
and His brother Alexander (died 1446) was before him until 1446
I think after Manuel III, names of children, details of marriages, etc are
questionable.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Kelsey J. Williams" <gkkwi...@cowboy.net> wrote in message
news:5b747dd9.0404...@posting.google.com...
> pierre...@hotmail.com (Pierre Aronax) wrote in message
news:<6779ec44.04042...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
>
> > The tables of Sturdza and Toumanoff, who pretend to give the name of
> > the lady obviously without any source, are definitely a very feeble
> > base for a genealogical speculation.
> >
> > Pierre
>
> Yes, they seem to be rife with errors. It would appear that both of
> them were rather over enthusiastic in making unjustified assumptions.
> However, the genealogical data on Ioannes IV which can be gleaned from
> the entry concerning him in the _Oxford Dictionary of Byzantium_ (3:
> 1048) could act as a more useful starting point:
>
>
Kelsey J. Williams
That might be possible but I don't know of any information which would
lend support for it. On a related note, I know that Morris Bierbrier
has traced the wife of Uzun Hassan, Theodora Komnene's, descendants in
_The Genealogist_ but has anyone examined the possible descents from
the Emperor David? Toumanoff provides him with three daughters of
whose existence I am somewhat doubtful:
1) Anna. m. (1) to Mohammed Zagan Pasha, Beglerbeg of Macedonia, and
(2) to Sinan Beg, son of Ilvan Beg.
2) [daughter]. m. to Mamia II, Prince of Guria (in Georgia), fl.
1460/61.
3) Maria. m. to Konstantinos Muruzes.
Did these daughters exist?
Sincerely,
Kelsey J. Williams
Jwc...@aol.com wrote in message news:<107.2f1ca6...@aol.com>...
George Tsambourakis
If Ioannis died in 1461, why he was only Emperor until 1458?
His alleged birthday 1429, maybe a mistake, a mix-up with his fathers death.
I have Alexios IV,born 19 Jun 1382, died 28 Oct 1429; Emperor from
1417-1429.
Married Theodora Kantakouzinos in 1395 (died 12 Nov 1463) Parents unknown to
me.
The had 7 children:
1 Daughter married Shah Dijhan, White Ship Tribe
2 Alexandros, died before 1446. Married Maria Gattilusio of Lesvos,
Daughter of Dorino I, Lord of Lesvos and Orietta Doria.
3 Ioannis IV
4 David. died 1 Nov 1463, Executed by order of Mehmet in Yedi Kule Prison.
Last Emperor of Trapezond 1458/1461. married twice: m1 Elena Gavras,
Princess of Gothia in 1426, daughter of Alexios Gavras, Lord of Crimea; m2
Elena Kantakouzinos, died 1 Nov 1463 in prison. married before 1447. Four
children from this marriage: Anna, Manuel, George and Basil
5 Daughter, died Mar 1457. Married George Brankovich, Despot of Serbia
(Two children: Mara and Lazar III)
6 Maria Died 17 Dec 1439, married Sep 1429 Ioannis VII Palaiologos born 16
Dec 1392, died 31 Oct 1448, Emperor 1425/1448. NO CHILDREN
7 Daughter.Married Ali-Bey, White Sheep Tribe
Is the anything wrong with the above? That's almost 40 years old information
Pierre Aronax
"George Tsambourakis" <eachw...@bigpond.com.au> a écrit dans le message de
news:MvDjc.1257$TT....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I do not know what to believe.
> If Ioannis died in 1461, why he was only Emperor until 1458?
He was not: he reigned until his death.
> His alleged birthday 1429, maybe a mistake, a mix-up with his fathers
death.
Since he rebelled against his father and deposed him, he was clearly not
born in 1429!
> I have Alexios IV,born 19 Jun 1382,
Not sure: that point is much debated (but I believe it's right). Anyway, if
Alexios IV is not born in 1382, then he is born in 1383 since he married in
1395.
> died 28 Oct 1429;
Rather in 1429, before 28 October.
> Emperor from
> 1417-1429.
> Married Theodora Kantakouzinos in 1395 (died 12 Nov 1463)
She died in 1426!
> Parents unknown to
> me.
>
> The had 7 children:
In will not go into them: that will be too complicated.
Pierre
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Actually, Iôannčs IV died in 1461, as has been demonstrated in an other
> article by T. Ganchou, "La date de la mort du basileus de Trébizonde Jean IV
> Komnčnos", Bizantinische Zeitschrift, 93 (2000).
Apologies if this was corrected already - Pierre has made a typo here,
since Ganchou's article established that Ioannes IV died during April
1460, before 22nd of the month.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Michel Kursanskis concluded that Alexios IV left only five children
(NB some information below is taken from sources apart from his
article in REB):
1. Ioannes IV
2. Alexandros, called Skantarios by Pseudo-Chalkokondoles. He was (as
Pierre posted that Ganchou showed elsewhere) born before April 1404,
and was entitled co-emperor before 12 November 1426 until he was
exiled from Trebizond when his father was murdered before 28 October
1429. He died between 1454 & 1459, having married (before November
1437) Maria Gattilusia - she was taken into the harem of Sultan
Mohammed II in 1462 - daughter of Dorino I Gattilusio, lord of
Mitylene. By her he was father of Alexios (born 1454) who became a
favourite page of Mehmed II & was beheaded with his uncle and cousins
at the Heptapyrgion fortress in Constantinople on 1 November 1463.
3. David II, born ca 1407/9, emperor of Trebizond from his eldest
brother's death in April 1460 to 15 August 1461 when he was deposed by
the Turks, executed on 1 November 1463. The questions about his
marriage/s and children have been discussed here before & I'm glad to
report (and Pierre will be happier to read) that I don't have the
strength to go into this again.
4. Maria, who died of the plague on 17 December 1439 having married in
1427 (as his third wife) Emperor Ioannes VIII Palaiologos.
5. Another daughter, name unknown, probably the elder, who in 1422
married Kara Yuluk, khan of the Aqquyunlu (grandfather of Usun Hasan
who later married her niece Theodora).
Other supposed daughters of Alexios IV were briefly argued out of
existence, including Valenza who had been sometimes accredited to him
instead of his son Ioannes IV. In this paper Kursanskis suggested that
rather than being a princess from Trebizond (possibly an aunt or even
great-aunt and not sister of Theodora khatun, as postulated in his
earlier article about her cited in this thread) Valenza might have
originated from an Italian town with a similar name, such as
Trebisacce in Calabria or Trebbia on the Ligurian coast.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> 2. Alexandros, called Skantarios by Pseudo-Chalkokondoles.
Apologies - this was a typo, for Pseudo-Chalkokondyles.
Peter Stewart
George Tsambourakis
I assume that your comments are the latest accepted information about the
his children.
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:88abeaa.04042...@posting.google.com...
George Tsambourakis
The name Valenza exists as a surname in Italy
Dr. George Tsambourakis
10 Mills Crescent
Toormina, NSW-2452, Australia
eachw...@bigpond.com.au
www.users.bigpond.com/eachwaynet
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:88abeaa.04042...@posting.google.com...
Peter Stewart
> Probably not relevant,.
> The name Valenza exists as a surname in Italy
That's beside the point - Kursanskis was trying to explain why Giovan
Battista Ramusio in the 16th century thought that Valenza had originated
from Trebizond, as a means of explaining why he had beleived that
Caterino Zeno (who was married to Valenza's daughter) must have been a
nephew by marriage to Theodora khatun through her sister.
Peter Stewart
Pierre Aronax
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:88abeaa.04042...@posting.google.com...
Oups... No, it was not a typo, it was a laps of brain. I quoted from memory
(I know it's bad but I have not always the energy to dig into my photocopies
and exume the paper). Thank you to have corrected.
Pierre
Pierre Aronax
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:88abeaa.04042...@posting.google.com...
<...>
> Michel Kursanskis concluded that Alexios IV left only five children
> (NB some information below is taken from sources apart from his
> article in REB):
<...>
> 3. David II, born ca 1407/9, emperor of Trebizond from his eldest
> brother's death in April 1460 to 15 August 1461 when he was deposed by
> the Turks, executed on 1 November 1463. The questions about his
> marriage/s and children have been discussed here before & I'm glad to
> report (and Pierre will be happier to read) that I don't have the
> strength to go into this again.
Neither have I...
> 4. Maria, who died of the plague on 17 December 1439 having married in
> 1427 (as his third wife) Emperor Ioannes VIII Palaiologos.
>
> 5. Another daughter, name unknown, probably the elder, who in 1422
> married Kara Yuluk, khan of the Aqquyunlu (grandfather of Usun Hasan
> who later married her niece Theodora).
>
> Other supposed daughters of Alexios IV were briefly argued out of
> existence, including Valenza who had been sometimes accredited to him
> instead of his son Ioannes IV.
> In this paper Kursanskis suggested that
> rather than being a princess from Trebizond (possibly an aunt or even
> great-aunt and not sister of Theodora khatun, as postulated in his
> earlier article about her cited in this thread)
This hypothesis mentionned by Kursanskis are very feeble IMHO. The only
source we have on this lady (which does not give her name actually) says she
was a daughter of John IV. Or 1) the source is correct, and the so was she,
or 2) the source is wrong, and then she did not exist, or 3) we can, using
other evidences, give her an other parentage but keep the other informations
given by this source. As far as I know, there is no evidence to make her a
daughter of Alexios IV. A deduction like: "Well, she can not be a daughter
of John IV for chronoligical reasons, but she must be some kind of Komnènè
anyway, so we can make her his sister/aunt" is not of goof method, since, if
the source made such a mistake, it can exactly, in the same way, have made a
daughter of a sister-in-law, a remote cousin or even somebody not related at
all. If "Balentza" was not a daughter of John IV, there is no way to find
her an other precise place between his relatives.
> Valenza might have
> originated from an Italian town with a similar name, such as
> Trebisacce in Calabria or Trebbia on the Ligurian coast.
But this new hypothesis of Kursanski could not explain why the source call
her a daughter of Kaloiannès, or why Théodôra Komnènè recognized the
descendants of "Balentza" as her relatives. We have not a source which says
only that she was "from Trebizond", but one which gives much more precise
details.
According to Massarelli, Alexios IV had an other daughter who became the
wife of the "emperor of Iberia". In a previous discussion, I have suggested
that she must be indentified with the wife of Mamia of Gouria, since Mamia
is known from Chalkokandylès to have been David II's "gambros".
Consequently, he was generally considered as his son-in-law, but as we know
"gambros" can mean many things, including brother-in-law, and that would fit
rather well with Massarelli's indication.
Pierre
Peter Stewart
Pierre Aronax wrote:
> "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> a écrit dans le message de
> news:88abeaa.04042...@posting.google.com...
<snip>
>>Other supposed daughters of Alexios IV were briefly argued out of
>>existence, including Valenza who had been sometimes accredited to him
>>instead of his son Ioannes IV.
>>In this paper Kursanskis suggested that
>>rather than being a princess from Trebizond (possibly an aunt or even
>>great-aunt and not sister of Theodora khatun, as postulated in his
>>earlier article about her cited in this thread)
>
>
> This hypothesis mentionned by Kursanskis are very feeble IMHO. The only
> source we have on this lady (which does not give her name actually) says she
> was a daughter of John IV. Or 1) the source is correct, and the so was she,
> or 2) the source is wrong, and then she did not exist, or 3) we can, using
> other evidences, give her an other parentage but keep the other informations
> given by this source. As far as I know, there is no evidence to make her a
> daughter of Alexios IV. A deduction like: "Well, she can not be a daughter
> of John IV for chronoligical reasons, but she must be some kind of Komnènè
> anyway, so we can make her his sister/aunt" is not of goof method, since, if
> the source made such a mistake, it can exactly, in the same way, have made a
> daughter of a sister-in-law, a remote cousin or even somebody not related at
> all. If "Balentza" was not a daughter of John IV, there is no way to find
> her an other precise place between his relatives.
I agree, Kursanskis didn't make a strong case the first time round, in
his paper 'Une alliance problématique au XVe siècle: le mariage de
Valenza Comnena, fille d'un empereur de Trébizonde, à Niccolò Crispo,
seigneur de Santorin', _Archeion Pontou_ 30 (1970-71), but his later
suggestion of an Italian origin is strange. No wonder George
Tsambourakis took the brief summary as applying to Valenza's name rather
than nationality.
The source for Valenza's relationship to Theodora isn't apparently a
solid one, yet the criticism by Kursanskis glances off from this on one
tangent only. It is clear from Ramusio's account that Theodora treated
Caterino Zeno as her kinsman, and she is reported to have called him
"nephew" - but then this is given as a reason he was chosen for the
embassy in the first place (when we are also told elsewhere that he was
only the third choice), it is _not_ given as any part of the reason for
Usun Hasan allowing Zeno access to Theodora, and the nature of the
connection is never specified. Even if Ramusio wasn't fantasising from
scratch, for all we know Valenza could have been related to Theodora
through her mother rather than as a Komnene.
>
>>Valenza might have
>>originated from an Italian town with a similar name, such as
>>Trebisacce in Calabria or Trebbia on the Ligurian coast.
>
>
> But this new hypothesis of Kursanski could not explain why the source call
> her a daughter of Kaloiannès, or why Théodôra Komnènè recognized the
> descendants of "Balentza" as her relatives. We have not a source which says
> only that she was "from Trebizond", but one which gives much more precise
> details.
This isn't in the same account, where her parentage isn't specified, but
Ramusio did call her a daughter of Ioannes elsewhere in his collection
of travels - however, in this passage he clearly implied that Velenza
and Theodora were daughters of "Irene, unica figliuola di Constantino,
ultimo imperatore di Constantinopoli" (Eirene, only daughter of
Konstantinos, the last emperor of Constantinople) which is patently
wrong [see Giovanni Battista Ramusio, _Navigazioni e viaggi_, edited by
Marica Milanesi, 5 vols (Turin, 1978-1985) III:367].
I suspect Caterino Zeno had only reported that Theodora treated him
"like" a nephew, using a simile that Ramusio (like Douglas Richardson)
failed to distinguish from a statement of fact.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> A deduction like: "Well, she can not be a daughter
> of John IV for chronoligical reasons, but she must be some kind of Komnčnč
> anyway, so we can make her his sister/aunt" is not of goof method
I didn't notice this delightful typo before - aiming for 'd' Pierre
hit 'f', meaning that it wasn't good method. But, as he also meant, it
_is_ indeed 'goof method' to keep an alleged link and then mix & match
its degree until the chronology works.
Peter Stewart
Pierre Aronax
> Comments interspersed:
<...>
I was not alluding to this passage, but to an other passage of the "viaggio
di Caterino Zeno in Persia", in the compilation of Ramusio, where he gives
the parentage of the mother-in-law of Caterino Zeno, but don't give neither
her name nor the name of her mother (no mention of the impossible Eirènè
daughter of Constantine XI). Since this passage is in the narrative of
Zeno's travel, one can speculate that it comes from Zeno's own accounts, and
so is more reliable than what Ramusio says in an other part of his vast
work, and which is more suspect to be his own assemblage from different
sources.
> I suspect Caterino Zeno had only reported that Theodora treated him
> "like" a nephew, using a simile that Ramusio (like Douglas Richardson)
> failed to distinguish from a statement of fact.
Indeed, that is a possibility. Anyway, one can not trust a late 16th century
source which is so obviously in contradiction with chronology. That's a pity
that the original account of Zeno is lost. This Trapezuntan connection must
be considered as more than suspect, although it has probably some base in
reality.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
> Hello,
>
> That might be possible but I don't know of any information which would
> lend support for it. On a related note, I know that Morris Bierbrier
> has traced the wife of Uzun Hassan, Theodora Komnene's, descendants in
> _The Genealogist_ but has anyone examined the possible descents from
> the Emperor David? Toumanoff provides him with three daughters of
> whose existence I am somewhat doubtful:
>
> 1) Anna. m. (1) to Mohammed Zagan Pasha, Beglerbeg of Macedonia, and
> (2) to Sinan Beg, son of Ilvan Beg.
>
> 2) [daughter]. m. to Mamia II, Prince of Guria (in Georgia), fl.
> 1460/61.
There may be numerous David's descendants living in Georgia and
Russia, provided that: 1) it was his daughter (and not sister) who
married Duke Mamia Gurieli and 2) that Mamia's heir was born from this
marriage. We have no source to confirm either of these points.
At least it is pretty certain that great princely families of Dadiani
and Gurieli descend from duke Mamia. The latter-day Bagrations are
counted among female-line descendants.
If I understand correctly, medieval Guria is contemporary Adjara. I
was told that Dadiani princes (i.e., Mamia's descendants) are still
powerful there. But the feudal bonds do slacken, as evidenced by
today's fall from power of a Prince Abashidze, whose ancestors have
been controlling parts of Adjara since Middle Ages.
> 3) Maria. m. to Konstantinos Muruzes.
This is rather doubtful. At least this marriage is not mentioned in
any genealogy of the Russo-Greek princes Muruzi (which make their
first appearance in history much later).
david hughes
the Assena clan
24. Arsan, had two bros: Mikhail & Yousef
25. Kutulmush (d1063)
26. Suleyman I, Sultan of Rum [= Rome: the Turkish word for Byzantine
Empire, to which the sultans of Rum [Turkey] claimed to be its
successors] 1077-1085, whose reign was followed by an interim
1085-1092
27. Qilij-Arslan I [Kilich; Kilidy], Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1092-1107
= dau of Tzakbas, Emir of Smyrna
28. Masud I [Rakin-ad-din], Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1116-1156
= dau of Al-Ghazni Danishmend
29. Qilij-Arslan II, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1156-1192
= dau of Qara-Arslan, Atabeg of Mosul 1144-45 & 1145-1167 [the
Ortokides], son of Da'ud, Atabeg of Mosul 1128-1144, son of Sokman I,
Atabeg of Mosul 1101-4, & [2nd] wife [name here], dau of David [V],
Jewish anti-Exilarch 1081-1094, son of Daniel "Nasi" Jewish Patriarch
of Palestine 1051-1062, son of the Jewish Exilarch Azariah I (975),
34th in succession from Bostanai, who revived the Babylonian
Exilarchate after a brief interregnum [see Davidic Dynasty]
30. Kai-Khosroe I, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1192-96 & 1204-1210
= Angela Comnena, dau of Manuel Mavrozomes & Anonyma, dau of Alexios,
illegit. son of Byzantine Emperor Manuel I 1143-1180
31. Kai-Qubad I [Kai-Kobad], Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1219-1236
= Khwand Khatun [Mah Peri], dau of Kir Vartan, Lord of Galanoros
32. Kai-Khosroe II, Sultan of Rum [Turkey] 1236-1245
= Ghazia Khatun, dau of Muhammed Al-Aziz, Sultan of Aleppo 1216-1237,
son of Ghiyath-ed-din Al-Zahir, Sultan of Aleppos 1193-1216, son of
Saladin "The Great", Sultan of Egypt 1169-1193; Damascus 1174-93;
Aleppo, Syria 1183-83; Jerusalem 1187-1193.
33. Djigda Khanum [Jihda-Hatun] (d1252), sis of the sultan
= David VII "Ulu, King of Georgia 1249-1270 [his 1st wife] [He =2
Gvantza [Gontsa], dau of Kakhaber IV Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri
[Kachaberidze] (d1263), by whom he begot Demetre II, King of Georgia;
=3 Isukhan [Altun], dau of Noyan, a Mongol Prince; some say Demetre II
was the son of his father's 3rd wife Isukhan; but, she could have been
just his step-mother]
begot 3 daus: (a) Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia" [wife of Manuel I of
Trebizond],
(b) Tamar [=1 Arghun Khan; =2 Sadun III, Prince of Kars (d1283), son
of Sherbaruq Mankaberdeli; her 2nd, & his 2nd], & (c) Theodora, wife
of 匽
34. Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia" [see "Bagration 3"]
= Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde [Trapezus], d1263 [his 2nd wife] [He
=1 Anna Xylaloe; =3 Irene Syracene]
35. Theodora (dau), Empress of Trebizonde 1284-5 dep, d. a nun
= Demetre II, King of Karthli [Georgia] 1273-1289 [son of David VII
"Ulu", King of Georgia, & his 2nd wife Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV
Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri [Kachaberidze] [his 1st =] [div. & =2
Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of Persia; =3 Natalie Djakeli, dau of
Beka I Jagueli, Beg of Samatzkhe]
36. Rusudan (dau) "of Iberia"
= Manuel I, Tyrant of Trebizonde [Trapezus], d1263 [his 2nd wife] [He
=1 Anna Xylaloe; =3 Irene Syracene]
37. Theodora (dau), Empress of Trebizonde 1284-5 dep, d. a nun
= Demetre II, King of Karthli [Georgia] 1273-1289 [son of David VII
"Ulu", King of Georgia, & his 2nd wife Gvantza, dau of Kakhaber IV
Kakhaberidze, Duke of Tavkveri [Kachaberidze] [his 1st =] [div. & =2
Sorghala, dau of Abaka, Il-Khan of Persia; =3 Natalie Djakeli, dau of
Beka I Jagueli, Beg of Samatzkhe]
38. Djigda Khanum [Jihda-Hatun] [note: her sisters were [16] Tamar
Amanelidze [wife of David VI/I "Narin", King of Georgia, Duke of
Imeriti] & Rusudan "of Iberia", wife of 匽
= Beka II Jaqueli, Beg of Samatzkhe, her 3rd & his 3rd [she = 1
Buga-Nojon; =2 Taki Panaskerteli] [he =1 Kalthum, dau of Farrukhzad II
of Shirvan; =2 匽
39. Djiadjak (dau)
=(1300) Alexis II, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1297-1330 [his 2nd =]
40. Basil I, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1332-1340
=2 Irene Megas [parentage unsure] [he =1 Irene, nat. dau of Byzantine
Emperor Andronicus III]
41. THEODORA, sis of Alexis III, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1349-1390
= Demetrius, Prince (d1343), son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
[her 1st =]; =2 [name]; =3(1358) Haji-Omar, Emir of Chalybe
42. Eirene
= Matthew Cantacuzene (d1391) [son of John VI Cantacuzene [Iohannes
Kantakuzenos], Byzantine Emperor 1347-54/5, abd, d1383, & Irene
(d1363/79), dau of Andronicus Asen (d1355), son of Ivan Asen III, King
of Bulgaria, & Irene, dau of Byzantine Emperor Michael VIII] [his 1st
wife]
43. Theodore [Teodoros] Cantacuzene (d1410) [his bros were Demetrius,
Despot of Morea (d1385/1420), & Iohannes, Despot of Peloponnese
(d1380)]
= Helene [Uros Comnena], sis of Teodoro Urosh, Sire of Kaponik
(d1415), &, dau of Iovan Urosh [Ivan Uros], Despot of Thessaly
(d1410), son of Simeon Urosh, Czar of Greeks, Serbs, & Albania
1356-1371, & wife, Tomassa, dau of Giovanni II Orsini, Despot of
Epirus
[note: Demetrius [I], Despot of Mordea (d1385/1420), & wife Eirene
[dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene ["Palaiologina"], dau of
Demetrius Palaeologus], were the parents of one son & three daus,
namely, [son] Andronicus, called the last "Grand-Domestic" of the
empire (d1453) [father of a son, executed 1453], [eldest dau] Eirene,
1st wife of George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia; (2) Marie [middle
dau], wife of George VIII Bagrat, King of Georgia (d1476), & (3)
Helene [youngst dau], wife of David Comnenus, Emperor at Trebizonde]
44. Eirene Cantacuzene (d1457); she had a bro George Kantacuzene
(d1459) [the father of 4 sons & 5 daus] & a bro Thomas
= Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 3rd =]
[note: he =1 Eirene, dau of Demetrius I, Despot of Morea, & wife
Eirene, dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene ["Palaiologina"], dau
of Demetrius Palaeologus; =2 Irene Komnenosi, dau of Trebizonde
Emperor Alexis IV 1417-1429, son of Manuel III, Emperor at Trebizonde
1390-1416, & wife, Gulkhan of Georgia]
(d1459)
45. Stefan, Despot of Serbia 1458-59, d1477
= Angelina Ariaritissa, dau of George Komnenos Ariantes, Lord of
Cermanika, & Maria Muzakini
46. Iovan (d1502)
= Helene, dau of Istvan II Jaksic of Montenegro
47. Marie
= Ferdinand de Frangepan, Count of Veglia, d1527
48. Catherine [Katalin] (d1561)
= Miklos V Subic, Count Zrinski, Ban of Croatia 1542-56, d1566
49. Catherine [Katalin] (d1585)
= Ferenc Thurzo, Bishop/Count of Nyitra, d1574/6
50. Anna
= George Perenyi de Nagy-Ida, d 1597
51. George [Jr], Baron Perenyi, d1630
52. Imre, Baron Perenyi, d1651
53. Catherine
= Simon, bro of John Kemeny, Voivode of Transylvania
54. Simon, Baron Kemeny de Magyar-Gyero-Monostor (alive 1704)
55. Christine
= Balthazar, Baron Banffy de Losoncz
56. Theresa
= Mihaly, Count Rhedey de Kis-Rhede, d1791
57. Laszlo, Count Rhedey de Kis-Rhede, d1805
= Agnes Inczedy de Nagy-Varad
58. Claudine (d1841)
= Alexander of Wurttemberg (d1885)
59. Francis, Duke of Teck, d1900
= Mary Adelaide (d1897), dau of Adolphus-Frederick, Duke of Cambridge,
son of King George III
60. Mary of Teck
= George V, King of Britain, etc.
61. George VI Albert, King of Britain
= Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon
62. ELIZABETH II
= Philip, Prince of Greece
63. Charles, Prince of Wales
= Diana Spencer
64A&B William & Harry [Henry]
Pierre Aronax
"david hughes" <hugh...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:484756c1.04051...@posting.google.com...
<...>
> 40. Basil I, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1332-1340
> =2 Irene Megas [parentage unsure] [he =1 Irene, nat. dau of Byzantine
> Emperor Andronicus III]
> 41. THEODORA, sis of Alexis III, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1349-1390
> = Demetrius, Prince (d1343), son of Byzantine Emperor Andronicus II
> [her 1st =]; =2 [name]; =3(1358) Haji-Omar, Emir of Chalybe
Just a reminder (since I already explained that but Mr Hughes seems to be
unable to understand simple words): all this is pure garbagge. There is
absolutely no source which says that Dèmètrios married a daughter of Alexios
II, neither it is any source which can point to such a conclusion. That is
pure invention, simply. But this connection is not only unproven and without
any documentary basis, it is also patently impossible. To be the mother of
Eirènè, who married Matthaios Kantakouzènos in 1341 and so was born at least
before 1329 (and most probably earlier since she plays already a political
role in 1341), Dèmètrios' wife must be born at least before 1313, and more
probably ca 1305: she obviously CAN NOT be a daughter of Emperor Basileios
and so a grand daughter of Alexios II, who was born in 1283! Moreover,
Alexios married the daughter of Bekha Jaqeli in 1299 and that is this
marriage which is supposed to give the "Seljukid Descent". The genealogy
presented here implies that Eirènè Palaiologina married Matthaios
Palaiologos when her grandfather Basiléios would have been (if he had not
die the previous year), at the most, 40 years old! (And in fact he was
probably younger). So, her own mother would have been born from a child of,
at the most, 12 years old... But that's obviously not an objection for Mr
Hughes, which doesn't care about dates, facts and this kind of trivialities.
Moreover, here we have a new confusion: the hypothetical wife of Dèmètrios
Palaiologos is confused with a real daughter of Emperor Basileios of
Trebizond, a Théodôra Komnènè who married in 1358 with a Muslim prince. Of
course, there is no basis for such identification, not likeliness that a
Muslim prince would have taken a Trapezuntan princess of around 50 years as
his wife.
<...>
> [note: Demetrius [I], Despot of Mordea (d1385/1420), & wife Eirene
> [dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene ["Palaiologina"], dau of
> Demetrius Palaeologus], were the parents of one son & three daus,
> namely, [son] Andronicus, called the last "Grand-Domestic" of the
> empire (d1453)
Andronikos was a son of Théodôros Palaiologos Kantakouzènos (+ 1410) and not
of Dèmètrios. There is no source which assert or imply that Dèmètrios
married a daughter of a Kônstantinos Hypsèlantès: in fact, nobody of that
name is known of any Greek source for that period. Again, pure invention.
> [father of a son, executed 1453],
> [eldest dau] Eirene,
> 1st wife of George Brankovic, Despot of Serbia;
Also daughter of Théodôros and not of Dèmètrios.
> (2) Marie [middle
> dau], wife of George VIII Bagrat, King of Georgia (d1476), & (3)
> Helene [youngst dau], wife of David Comnenus, Emperor at Trebizonde]
This Hélénè probably never existed, although at least she is mentionned by a
late source.
> 44. Eirene Cantacuzene (d1457); she had a bro George Kantacuzene
> (d1459) [the father of 4 sons & 5 daus] & a bro Thomas
Eirènè was a daughter of Théodôros, not of Dèmètrios.
> = Djordge [George Brankovic], Despot of Serbia 1427-1456 [his 3rd =]
The Despot of Serbia had probably only one wife, Eirènè Kantakouzènè.
> [note: he =1 Eirene, dau of Demetrius I, Despot of Morea, & wife
> Eirene, dau of Constantine Hypselantes & Eirene ["Palaiologina"], dau
> of Demetrius Palaeologus;
So, according to Mr Hughes, his 1st and 3rd wifes were one and the same
person. Is there anybody which can give a sense to what he says?
> =2 Irene Komnenosi, dau of Trebizonde
> Emperor Alexis IV 1417-1429, son of Manuel III, Emperor at Trebizonde
> 1390-1416, & wife, Gulkhan of Georgia]
Pure guess, to explain a parentage between the Komnènoi and the wife of the
despot of Serbia which can be explained in a much more simple way.
> (d1459)
If this date is supposed to be the date of the death of the supposed second
wife of the despot of Serbia, that is simply absurd, since Eirènè
Kantakouzènè died in 1457: according to Mr Hughes, the second wife of the
despot of Serbia died two years after his third wife...
Pierre
~ me ~
up with F. Winston Leyland, S.S.C., author of "The Comneni Emperors of
Trebizond", who gives an impressive bibliography; and, also I was
influenced by the genealogical chart labeled "Table III" inserted in
the article "The Alleged Descent of Luise Charlotte Radziwill", which
is the only page I photocopied from that article. on the top left side
it reads "The Augustan XIX:3", and on the top right side it reads page
87.
david hughes
Rdavi...@AOL.com
Pierre Aronax
"~ me ~" <hughda...@aol.com> a écrit dans le message de
news:26cabad8.04052...@posting.google.com...
> I have no idea what you are talking about.
I am not surprise of that.
> You'll just have to take it
> up with F. Winston Leyland, S.S.C., author of "The Comneni Emperors of
> Trebizond", who gives an impressive bibliography; and, also I was
> influenced by the genealogical chart labeled "Table III" inserted in
> the article "The Alleged Descent of Luise Charlotte Radziwill", which
> is the only page I photocopied from that article. on the top left side
> it reads "The Augustan XIX:3", and on the top right side it reads page
> 87.
You were "influenced"? How interesting: are we speaking of history or of
painting? Do you ever consider facts and sources, or do you simply reproduce
genealogical charts find in books like a Xerox machine? For the benefit of
everybody, I ask you here again, for the third time, some simple questions,
to which I hope you will consent to answer as clearly as you can. If you do
so, then perhaps somebody will take your affirmations into consideration.
Otherwise, they will appeared as what they are: pure fictions.
1. You pretend that Dèmètrios Palaiologos married a granddaughter of Alexios
II Komnènos of Trebizond, daughter of Emperor Basileios Komnènos. What is
your source or argument for that claim? By source, I intend a contemporary
document, not the allegations of a modern author, whatever are the initials
he puts after his name or how "impressive" is his bibliography (a lengthy
bibliography can contain nothing of substantial). By argument, I intend a
logical reasoning (yours or the one of a modern author) which comes to the
conclusion that, view the existing evidences, there is reasons to believe,
or at least there is a possibility that such woman existed and married as
you suggest she did.
2. You assert that this wife, who you pretend to have been Dèmètrios' wife
(see 1) was the mother of Dèmètrios' daughter, Eirènè. But Eirènè married in
1341, and so must be born at least before 1329, certainly even earlier
(rather around 1325). How can you handle that with the fact that Alexios II,
who you claim to have been her great grandfather, was born in 1283, and with
the fact he married the women you pretend to have been her great grandmother
in 1299? That is a very simple question, so please give a very simple answer
and don't elude again the problem by claiming that you have findthat in a
book written by somebody who has read an "impressive" bibliography.
3. You pretend that the same woman who was Dèmètrios' wife was, at least 30
if not 35 years latter, married to the Emir Ibrahim Haji. When did she come
back to Trebizond, and how do you explain that this Muslim prince would have
asked as wife a woman of 50 years or more rather than a younger princess?
Pierre
mqs...@gmail.com
>
> 3) Maria. m. to Konstantinos Muruzes.
>
> Did these daughters exist?
>
> Sincerely,
> Kelsey J. Williams
>
In the 1700s, a Greek merchant family resident in Constantinople, Mourouzis, and by then wealthy and well-connected in the Greek christian community of Constantinople, rose to high government positions in Danubian principalities, and ultimately in late 1700s a few of them were elected Sovereign Princes for a few turns of terms.
This Mourouzis merchant family had its root in early 1600s claimedly come from the region of Trapezountas.
I guess that it has been some over-enthusiastic genealogy creators who have decided to make the merchants' unknown earlier root to have some gilded color. HOwever, no Konstantinos Mourouzis in the 1400s was historically attested to exist and to be a genealogical forebear of the 1600s-1700s family.
Surely no one takes seriously that listing of a created daughter of a monarch of Trapezountas with marriage to a Mourouzis. Because that is an obvious fantasy genealogy.
mqs...@gmail.com
>
> 17. Alexis IV, Tyrant of Trebizonde 1417-1429 dep [his sis, Eudoxia,
> was the wife of Constantine Hypselantes, and mother of a dau, Eirene
> david hughes
> Rdavi...@AOL.com
bwahaha.
In the 1700s, a Greek merchant family resident in Constantinople, Ypsilantis, and by then wealthy and well-connected in the Greek christian community of Constantinople, rose to high government positions in Danubian principalities, and ultimately in late 1700s a few of them were elected Sovereign Princes for a few turns of terms.
This Ypsilantis merchant family had its root in early 1600s claimedly come from the region of Trapezountas.
I guess that it has been some over-enthusiastic genealogy creators who have decided to make the merchants' unknown earlier root to have some gilded color. However, no Konstantinos Hypselantes in the 1400s was historically attested to exist and to be a genealogical forebear of the 1600s-1700s family.
Surely no one takes seriously that listing of a created sister (and thusly daughter) of monarchs of Trapezountas with marriage to an Ypsilantis. Because that is an obvious fantasy genealogy.
mqs...@gmail.com
near Trapezountas, i.e in its region, there was a village/town named Mourousa, and a (small) area (bridge area or peninsula or what...) named Ypsala.
So, if some various people carried a byname either Mourousis or Ypsalantis, (or versions of those, such as Hypselantes)
such is quite understandable for a byname and for family name of various different families. And as with geography-derived surnames usually, such a surname could have belonged to several different families, without it implying nor affirming them to be genealogically related, nor descendants of an earlier carrier of that geography-derived name.
Kelsey Jackson Williams
All the best,
Kelsey Jackson Williams
http://scottishgenealogy.weebly.com/