Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
mond...@mail.utexas.edu
Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja (1012-1087)
dau of Vladimir the Great of Kiev (960-1015).
My problem is, which of his wives was her mother. In two sources, she was
under Anna Porphyrogenita, but she died in 1011.
Another source had her under Pss Rogneda of Polotsk, but she died in 1000.
There is a last wife, Adelja (no surname, no information), so that is where
I have stuck poor Maria.
Thanks for any help putting her in the correct place.
Francesca Sutton
Renia Simmonds
you give, that she was daughter of Rogneda. (Have you spelled that correctly -
should it be Ronega?)
Do = of
Ronega = Ronega (Rogneda)
This girl seems to have both her parents' names, Wladimirowna, the suffix, owna
(pronounced oovna) meaning "miss", so "Miss Wladimir" or "daughter of Wladimir.
Renia
Kay Allen AG
>
> Don't know too much about this, but I would guess, from the inforamtion that
> you give, that she was daughter of Rogneda. (Have you spelled that correctly -
> should it be Ronega?)
>
> Do = of
> Ronega = Ronega (Rogneda)
>
> This girl seems to have both her parents' names, Wladimirowna, the suffix, owna
> (pronounced oovna) meaning "miss", so "Miss Wladimir" or "daughter of Wladimir.
>
> Renia
The Russians would make it a V instead of a W. -Ovna or -evna is indeed
daughter of; I would strike the miss.
Kay Allen AG
Renia Simmonds
When I was single, I was Renia Lamborowna, you see!
Renia
D. Spencer Hines
You obviously have very little knowledge of either Russian or Polish,
or any other Slavic Language --- or, indeed, Patronymics in General.
[PIG]
No, I did NOT say that you were pig-ignorant.
Kay Allen has set you straight.
No, I'll resist the impulse to make a Polish joke at your expense.
"Looking at it from a Polish angle?"
No, forget it.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Renia Simmonds <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:37979658...@cwcom.net...
D. Spencer Hines
Vide infra.
Horsefeathers.
_Homo ludens_.
Fondly,
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
----- Original Message -----
From: Kay Allen AG <all...@pacbell.net>
To: D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
Cc: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 22, 1999 12:07 PM
Subject: Re: Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
> Dear Spencer,
>
> Renia is of Polish extraction and would write as a Pole, not as a
> Russian.
>
> Please don't exercise your wit at her expense. It was a harmless
mishap.
> We are all fallible humans and this is a rather trivial matter.
>
> Kay Allen AG
Kay Allen AG
Renia is of Polish extraction and would write as a Pole, not as a
Russian.
Please don't exercise your wit at her expense. It was a harmless mishap.
We are all fallible humans and this is a rather trivial matter.
Kay Allen AG
D. Spencer Hines wrote:
>
> Vide infra.
>
> You obviously have very little knowledge of either Russian or Polish,
> or any other Slavic Language --- or, indeed, Patronymics in General.
> [PIG]
>
> No, I did NOT say that you were pig-ignorant.
>
> Kay Allen has set you straight.
>
> No, I'll resist the impulse to make a Polish joke at your expense.
>
> "Looking at it from a Polish angle?"
>
> No, forget it.
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
> and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
> A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
>
> Renia Simmonds <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
> news:37979658...@cwcom.net..
>
D. Spencer Hines
Actually, that's quite wrong.
Stating that a patronymic means _Miss_ on a Genealogical newsgroup is
far from a trivial mistake.
Large disasters often hinge on cumulative "small" mistakes that are
casually treated or even semi-condoned as 'harmless mishaps' or
'non-critical misjudgments'.
Why, lack of a 'butterfly touch' in a Piper Saratoga might even lead
one into a Graveyard Spiral.
If we tolerate supposedly "small" errors in Genealogy and dismiss them
as just 'trivial matters', attributable to 'human fallibility' we
create a dog's breakfast of flawed pedigrees passed on to future
generations --- as we see here every day.
Pax Vobiscum.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Kay Allen AG <all...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:379796...@pacbell.net...
Renia Simmonds
father, who was. I'm sure that Rafal Prinke will be better able to explain
the Polish way than I. I don't know whether the owna/owa as a historical
thing, or whether it is still used.
As Renia Lamborowna, I was recognised as a single woman (Miss Lambor), the
daughter of Mr Lambor. My mother, was Margaret Lamborowa (Mrs Lambor), or
the wife of Mr Lambor, who was simply Mr Lambor, or Pan Lambor.
Similarly, my grandmother was Zofia Bogucka, while her father was Jan
Bogucki (feminine and masculine endings), but I don't know if only some
name types have the owna/owa.
Under this banner, come Mac, Mc, O', -ski, -ska, Navratil, Navratilova,
-vitch, -witz, Fitz, etc, etc,
This is a matter of linguistics, and it could be helpful to those who come
across unfamiliar foreign names with such varieties of spelling. It's not
trivia; it's helpful, because not all of us are fortunate enought to know
everything about everything (including Leonardo da Vinci). We all have our
areas of expertise, and our areas of weakness, and our grey areas, and
most of us try to help, where we can.
Renia
Andrew S. Kalinkin
>
> I have (under various names, according to source):
>
> Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja (1012-1087)
> dau of Vladimir the Great of Kiev (960-1015).
>
> My problem is, which of his wives was her mother. In two sources, she was
> under Anna Porphyrogenita, but she died in 1011.
> Another source had her under Pss Rogneda of Polotsk, but she died in 1000.
>
> There is a last wife, Adelja (no surname, no information), so that is where
> I have stuck poor Maria.
>
> Thanks for any help putting her in the correct place.
>
> Francesca Sutton
Dear Francesca,
This is really difficult question. First, nobody really knows when this girl
was born, so you may remove the 1012 birthdate. For that matter, nobody also
knows when Vladimir was born, although as a rough estimation 960 is probably
not very far from the truth.
Now let's look what we know. As she was Russian, start with the russian sources.
Nestors chronicle mention under year 1043 that Prince Jaroslav Vladimirovich of
Kiev married his sister to Prince Casimir of Poland. That's all. Earliest Polish
chronist, Gallus Anonymus, calls Casimir's wife simply "a noble woman from Russia".
This marriage was mentioned also in 12th century German chronicle (Annalista Saxo),
but it names the bride "Regis Russiae filiam" (daughter of King of Russia).
Annales of Krakow capitul mention death of Casimir's wife in 1087. This source
is the first which gives her name: Dobronega. Later Polish chronicles add another
name for her, Maria. Only very late sources, such as Dlugosz (15th century) claim
that she was daughter of Anna Porphyrogenita, but as the earlier sourses say
nothing about it, it is very doubtful.
AFAIK, there are two main theories who was Maria Dobronega. One, proposed by
N.Baumgarten, suggest that after death of Anna Vladimir married a German princess,
daughter of one Count Kuno and Rihlint, daughter of emperor Otto I, and Maria
was his daughter from this union. Another theory makes her daughter of Jaroslav,
instead of sister.
Does this help? Or have I messed things even more? :-)
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Moscow, Russia
D. Spencer Hines
Polish-bashing, sans a shred of hard evidence.
My _bona fides_ are quite impeccable in this matter. [N.B. Yes,
Rafal, I know that _bona fides_ is actually singular in Latin.] Hell,
I even have Polish ancestors myself. Princess Rogneda of Polotsk
appears to be one of them, a 29th Great-Grandmother. So, if I'm
Polish, how could I be accused of Polish-bashing? That would indeed
be a smashing _non sequitur_ and an odoriferous red herring [N.B. No,
that's not a Communist-bashing remark, Rafal.]
We've already agreed that African-Americans are allowed to tell Black
jokes, Jews are allowed to tell Jewish jokes, Hispanics are allowed to
tell Hispanic jokes, _et cetera_. It's perfectly legitimate to make
fun of one's OWN ethnic group. That's established doctrine in the
canon of Political Correctness. Vide Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, Jackie
Leonard, Milton Berle, et al.
Princess Rogneda of Polotsk also reportedly later became a Nun. So,
I'm ALSO allowed to tell Nun-bashing jokes too. Not that I would, of
course. Only Derek Wilcox would do something like that.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
New Subject:
Rafal, I was talking with this Russian friend of mine yesterday. I
told him that I was in a dispute with a Polish academic, Rafal Prinke,
who is deeply interested in the occult, Satanism, astrology and so
forth --- but who is a scientist and lives and works in Poznan,
Poland.
The Russian guy rolled his eyes and said, in his charming Russian
accent, "To speak of a Polish academic is an oxymoron." I replied
that I didn't think that was funny and that it seemed to me to be an
ethnic slur against all Poles. Since I am Polish too, I thought it
might pertain to me as well and that made me angry.
The Russian replied that one of his Great-Grandmothers was Polish, so
he was entitled to make Polish-bashing jokes. Besides, he said, "I am
a Russian, rather than an American, so the American rules for
Political Correctness don't apply to me."
Rafal, I was sincerely puzzled and troubled by all this and thought I
should see what you thought about it.
I look forward to your kind response.
Thank you.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Renia Simmonds <PSim...@cwcom.net> wrote in message
news:37978AEE...@cwcom.net...
> Don't know too much about this, but I would guess, from the
inforamtion that
> you give, that she was daughter of Rogneda. (Have you spelled that
correctly -
> should it be Ronega?)
>
> Do = of
> Ronega = Ronega (Rogneda)
>
> This girl seems to have both her parents' names, Wladimirowna, the
suffix, owna
> (pronounced oovna) meaning "miss", so "Miss Wladimir" or "daughter
of Wladimir.
>
> Renia
>
Mr. Muckle
Didn't Jan Sobieski save Western Europe? - at least there is a large
picture in the Vatican Museum to that effect.
Please pass the pierogies!!
D. Spencer Hines
Damn straight! Rafal, tell us how to say that in Polish, please.
The German Enigma ciphering machine and Jan Sobieski are both great
Polish contributions to World History.
God Save Poland! Since I have Polish blood, how could I say
otherwise?
But it is an added benefice to be able to crack Polish jokes now,
without fear of condemnation or ostracism.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Fortem Posce Animum
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Mr. Muckle <jdwa...@home.com> wrote in message
news:379A61C7...@home.com...
taramark
The louder he talked of his honor,
the faster we counted our spoons.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Submitted by:
Corinne
tara...@netins.net
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 1:17 PM
Subject: Re: Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
>______________________________
taramark
He who hangs himself in the chimney
should not complain of smoke.
German proverb
Corinne
tara...@netins.net
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Spencer Hines <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Date: Saturday, July 24, 1999 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
>Vide infra.
>
>Damn straight! Rafal, tell us how to say that in Polish, please.
>
>The German Enigma ciphering machine and Jan Sobieski are both great
>Polish contributions to World History.
>
>God Save Poland! Since I have Polish blood, how could I say
>otherwise?
>
>But it is an added benefice to be able to crack Polish jokes now,
>without fear of condemnation or ostracism.
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas
>Fortem Posce Animum
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
>and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
>A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
>
>Mr. Muckle <jdwa...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:379A61C7...@home.com...
>
>> Where would Bletchley Cottage have been without the Poles?
>>
>> Didn't Jan Sobieski save Western Europe? - at least there is a large
>> picture in the Vatican Museum to that effect.
>>
>> Please pass the pierogies!!
>>
>> "D. Spencer Hines" wrote:
>>
P A MagLOCHLAINN
use the masculine form of their surname - apparently because they associate
the gender endings with the Russian language, which they reject, and also
because of a growing feminist movement (similar to women in English-speaking
countries who insist on being called "Chairman" as opposed to "Chairwoman").
The feminine form for Mac surnames is of course Nic (and Nig for Mag), while
for O' surnames it is Ní (which aspirates the following consonant). These
forms are used every day by Irish speakers - I meet a friend in the next
street every week, who is quite happily named Sandra Ní Bhrógáin. These
forms indicate that a girl has acquired the surname from her father: married
women use a different form. Thus Sandra's parents could be Seán Ó Brógáin
and Una Bean Uí Bhrógáin (bean = wife, Uí is the genitive form of Ó).
Another possible reason why some women are dropping these gender variations
is the endless hassle it can attract from ill-disposed petty officials in
other countries.
P A MagLochlainn (magloc...@dnet.co.uk)
=========
Renia Simmonds wrote in message <3797B7E1...@cwcom.net>...
>I'm not a native Polish speaker, simply repeating what I was taught by my
>father, who was. I'm sure that Rafal Prinke will be better able to explain
>the Polish way than I. I don't know whether the owna/owa as a historical
>thing, or whether it is still used.
>
>As Renia Lamborowna, I was recognised as a single woman (Miss Lambor), the
>daughter of Mr Lambor. My mother, was Margaret Lamborowa (Mrs Lambor), or
>the wife of Mr Lambor, who was simply Mr Lambor, or Pan Lambor.
>
>Similarly, my grandmother was Zofia Bogucka, while her father was Jan
>Bogucki (feminine and masculine endings), but I don't know if only some
>name types have the owna/owa.
>
>Under this banner, come Mac, Mc, O', -ski, -ska, Navratil, Navratilova,
>-vitch, -witz, Fitz, etc, etc,
>
>This is a matter of linguistics, and it could be helpful to those who come
>across unfamiliar foreign names with such varieties of spelling. It's not
>trivia; it's helpful, because not all of us are fortunate enought to know
>everything about everything (including Leonardo da Vinci). We all have our
>areas of expertise, and our areas of weakness, and our grey areas, and
>most of us try to help, where we can.
>
>Renia
Sergei
conversion to Christianity in 988, a rather licentious man. He had
hundreds of concubines throughout Russia, 200 concubines in Belgorod
alone.
After his conversion, he married the daughter of Rogwold, Prince of
Polotsk, having previously seized and ravaged her father's demesne and
murdered his would-be father-in-law.
Rogneda died in 1000. After which Vladimir married Anna, the sister of
Byzantine Emperor Basil II. So much for his lawful wives.
Besides that, he continued to retain concubines, some of whom would be
accepted at court as semi-lawful wives, thus causing a lot of confusion
to historians (Chronicles name "a Czech lady", "a Bulgarian lady", a
Olafa, a Malfrida, a Predslava, a Milolika etc. among them).
So, at the end of the day, no one can say with certainty, by whom this
or that child of his was begotten.
It is assumed that he had 3 sons and 2 daughters by Rogneda. The sons
would be Izyaslaw, Mstislaw and Yaroslaw (later called the Wise). The
daughters would be Dobrognewa and Predslawa.
After Vladimir converted Russia to Christianity, those of noble descent
began to be given 2 names. The first name was the common name by which
they would be referred in everyday life,the second was the Christian
name under which they would be buried and referred to in official
documents.
Thus, Dobrognewa was her common name, and her Christian name at baptism
was Maria.
As for the etymology of the name, DOBROGNEWA consists of 2 stems:
Dobro - means Kindness
Gnev - means Wrath
a - is the fiminine ending
Hence, Dobrognewa means Kindwrath (a pagan name, as you can see, and a
traditional Slav name at that).
Good luck,
Sergei
P.S. Dobrognewa is the Polish spelling. The Russian one would be
Dobrogneva. In ca. 1042 she married Casimir I, King of Poland and had a
daughter called Maria by him.
In article <l03020902b3bd10de46db@[128.83.66.21]>,
mond...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> I have (under
> Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja (1012-1087)
> dau of Vladimir the Great of Kiev (960-1015).
>
> My problem is, which of his wives was her mother. In two sources, she
was
> under Anna Porphyrogenita, but she died in 1011.
> Another source had her under Pss Rogneda of Polotsk, but she died in
1000.
>
> There is a last wife, Adelja (no surname, no information), so that is
where
> I have stuck poor Maria.
>
> Thanks for any help putting her in the correct place.
>
> Francesca Sutton
>
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
D. Spencer Hines
Good Wrath? Perhaps, wrath is often _Good_ --- as in _The Wrath of
God_ frequently providing valuable object lessons to the wayward in
the Holy Bible.
Over the past 40 years or so, many men have been trained to think that
_Wrath Is Bad_ --- you know, "one of those useless patriarchal
leftovers that we need to get rid of. Control yourself."
Many contemporary social, political and economic problems can be
traced in large part to this fuzzy-headed thinking. Children need to
see Good Wrath in action from their Fathers, on some occasions.
Honest Wrath Can Be A Good Thing. Now, I did NOT say that it ALWAYS
is. It should be focused, generally verbal and not physical, and of
limited duration.
Wimpish Men, who are pudendum-whipped, will no doubt disagree.
I suspect that Velikij Knyaz Vladimir would understand perfectly what
I'm talking about. He was certainly no wimp --- nor was he
pudendum-whipped.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
Exitus Acta Probat
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Sergei <hep...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7nhi2r$9mp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Sergei
Vladimir (960) and Princess Dobrognewa (1012), which you quote,
are absolutely HYPOTHETICAL.
The Chronicles don't give us any exact dates to that effect,
and some historians try to work them out based on most likely
collation of certain events. Like, we know for sure that
Vladimir died in 1015. Hence, if we give him some 55 years to
live, he'd be born in 960. But that is a highly dangerous
approach, because lives of men move in no less mysterious ways
than those of God. We might as well assume that he was a wily
old chap and lasted out until 70!
In short: WE DO NOT KNOW WHEN HE WAS BORN.
Neither do we know when Dobrognewa was born or when she died.
When I say that it is assumed that Dobrognewa was Rogneda's
daughter, it means that some indirect hints point out to
that, and those hints are more solid than the assumption that
she couldn't marry at 45 (if she had been born by Rogneda, she
must have been round about that age when she married King
Casimir of Poland). We have no right to wave this aside with
a non-chalant remark that women did not marry at that age
in Medieval times. How can we be so sure? Do we know what was
behind that marriage and what Casimir or her brother Yaroslav
(then the Grand Prince) were after? It could have been some
dire political consideration, especially since Poland was
a force to be reckoned with. We could go on surmising for ages.
And think up a very plausible explanation of how a 45-year
old woman could become a bride.
The liberty of stating this or that supposition as a fait accompli
could only be taken in a work of fiction, but, frustrating as it is,
it must be admitted that in history or genealogy we may only deal
with hard-headed facts, and the dates of birth of Vladimir and his
daughter are not among them, hence for Vladimir we'd put a question
mark instead of his birth date, and for Dobrognewa-11th century
instead of both dates.
Good Luck,
Sergei
In article <7nhi2r$9mp$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Sergei
Wrath is productive, especially in statesmen and political leaders.
And in Medieval times Wrath was the driving force behind organized
society. Leaders must inspire Awe in their subjects. It doesn't
work out otherwise.
Grand Prince Vladimir would concur, and a handful of his successors
(his son Yaroslav the Wise, his grandson Vsevolod, his grand-grandson
Vladimir Monomachos, and further down the line George Longarms, Andrew
of Bogolyub, Vsevolod the Big Nest, Yaroslav, Alexander of the Neva,
Ivan Moneybag, all of them renowned Princes, but very often referred to
by their contemporaries as not altogether preposessing and quite
ill-tempered).
And even more so would Ivan the Terrible (or, the translation I prefer,
John the Awesome), a descendant of Vladimir.
He said on one occasion when asked about his brutal ways:
"This is good for the state, and awesome for the enemies."
Good luck,
Sergei
P.S. Although, in the case of Dobrognewa, "Dobro" means "Kindness",
and cannot be interpreted as "Good". Trust the native speaker.
In article <7nid9e$89v$1...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>,
Александр Агамов
biography of Wladimir (Alexey Karpov. Wladimir The Saint. Publ.by Molodaya
Guardia, Moscow, 1997).
The first wife (supposely) was some "tchekhinia" (a woman from Czech
(Bohamia) or, by Karpov opinion, from Scandinavia (p.117). She gave him a
son Vyisheslav (p.119).
The 2-nd one was Rogneda. Their marriage had place in spring of 978 (p.380).
From Rogneda Wladimir had 4 sons: Yzyaslaw, Yaroslaw, Mstislaw, Wsevolod
and a daughter Predslawa. Karpov pointed to Polen chronist Jan Dlugosh who
said about one more daughter of Wladimir and Rogneda - Mstislawa (p.117).
Rogneda died in 1000 or at the beginning of 1001 (p.117). Karpov writes that
Wladimir left Rogneda after his marriage with Anne of Greek, i.e. after 979
(p. 119)
The 3-rd wife is "grekinya" (from Greece), the widow of Wladimir's elder
brother Yaropolk. She was pregnant before her tie with Wladimir but he
considered her son Swaytopolk to be as his own (he adopted him).
The 4-th wife is one more "tchekhinia", who gave him 2 sons: Swyatoslaw and
Mstislav (Karpov suppose that Nestor chronicle named the second name by
mistake and speech is not about Mstislav but about Stanislaw (p.120).
The 5-th wife is "bolgaryin'a" (the Bulgarian). She was mother of Boris and
Gleb.
The 6-th wife is Anna of Greek and she was mother of Dobrognega-Maria
(p.120). But in notes Karpov dwells on Dobrognega-Maria's origin in detail
(p.382). The Russian chronicle doesn't point name of Dobrognega-Maria when
speaks about her marriage with Kazimir I and places this marriage under
1043. Karpov says that date is incorrect and attribute it as 1039. The Latin
sources names her as Dobronega or Dobrognewa, in christianity Maria (died
1087). Some Russian researches suppose that she was NOT a daughter of
Wladimir but one of his own son Yaroslaw I The Wise, i.e. she was
granddaughter of Wladimir (the based on Kasimir date of birth). According to
another opinion Dobronega may be a daughter of Wladimir and some daughter of
count Kuno von Oeningen (sorry for probable incorrect spelling)(see Ptcholov
E.V. Pol'skaya kniaginya - Maria Dobronega Wladimirowna// Vneshnyia politika
Drevney Rusi. Moscow, 1988, pp.117-122). Ptcholov adopts the opinion od
Baumgarten according to Wladimir had his last wife from Welf dynasty, a
daughter of Kuno von Oeningen (in fact the speech is about duke Konrad of
Swabia, who died 997) (see this version in Baumgarten N. Genealogies et
mariages occidentaux des Ririkides resses du X-e au XIII-e s. // Orientana
Christiana. T.IX/1. Roma, 1927. N 35, p.8). But Kappov himself thinks this
assumption is wrong (p.377-378).
Best regards,
Alexander Agamov
Moscow, Russia
----- Original Message -----
From: Sergei <hep...@my-deja.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
> In article <l03020902b3bd10de46db@[128.83.66.21]>,
> mond...@mail.utexas.edu wrote:
> > I have (under
>
>
>
> > Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja (1012-1087)
> > dau of Vladimir the Great of Kiev (960-1015).
> >
> > My problem is, which of his wives was her mother. In two sources, she
> was
> > under Anna Porphyrogenita, but she died in 1011.
> > Another source had her under Pss Rogneda of Polotsk, but she died in
> 1000.
> >
> > There is a last wife, Adelja (no surname, no information), so that is
> where
> > I have stuck poor Maria.
> >
> > Thanks for any help putting her in the correct place.
> >
> > Francesca Sutton
> >
> >
>
>
D. Spencer Hines
Very true.
Ivan Groznij would certainly concur, as you point out.
Wrath is good within private families too --- in moderation, and with
the caveats previously noted. [Vide infra.]
Sometimes it is a good thing if a leader is seen as something of a son
of a bitch by his political adversaries on the world stage.
During the Cold War, both Richard Nixon and Ronald Reagan [the Evil
Empire remark] had that advantage.
Jimmy Carter did not. His image was that of the good Christian leader
who would not even hurt a 'killer rabbit.'
Bill Clinton is seen as someone who can be rolled. Heads of State of
other countries have learned that he can often be pushed further and
that one should never take the first offer from him. Jacques Chirac
[President of France] has even said it. They do fear Hillary and they
know that Bill is indeed pudendum-whipped, which introduces a new
dimension into the decision-making calculus of these 'foreign'
leaders.
Vladimir and Ivan Groznij would no doubt be amused.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- "Probitas Laudatur et Alget" [Honesty is praised
and starves.], Decimus Junius Juvenalis (Juvenal) [c. 50 A.D.-- c.130
A.D.], _Satires, I, line 74_
Sergei <hep...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:7nk7fg$1qn$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Håvard Moe <haav...@online.no>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 01, 1999 8:12 AM
Subject: Re: Dobronega Maria Wladimirowna Kijewskaja
> On Mon, 26 Jul 1999 11:50:52 GMT, Sergei <hep...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> >Vladimir, Grand Prince of Russia (?-1015) was, especially before his
> >conversion to Christianity in 988, a rather licentious man. He had
> >hundreds of concubines throughout Russia, 200 concubines in Belgorod
> >alone.
> >
> >After his conversion, he married the daughter of Rogwold, Prince of
> >Polotsk, having previously seized and ravaged her father's demesne and
> >murdered his would-be father-in-law.
> >
> >Rogneda died in 1000. After which Vladimir married Anna, the sister of
> >Byzantine Emperor Basil II. So much for his lawful wives.
>
> The Hull database show the date for the marriage between Vladimir and
> Rogneda as 989. I recon you have some better reference to this, hence
> Hull is wrong?
Dear Havard,
Europaische Stammtafeln, Schwennicke Volume II page 128, gives
as marriage year 980. This first wife is called Rogned von Polock, in 989
she became a nun and died in 1002. She had been married before, to a Jarl in
Sweden, her father was Fuert/Prince Rogwoled/Rogwald.
Vladimir then married the Greek widow of his murdered (980) brother.
Then a strange date, 987/989, he married Anna of Byzantium. He married a
fourth time, after 1011, a wife whose first name is unknown but apparently
daughter of Kuno Count von Ohningen. And here we have four wives
but of the children only three have a mother, the others are not clear to
which mother they belong.
1st marriage
Jaroslaw, born 980 (978), died 20 February 1054
Wsewolod died 1015
Predslawa
then by 'unbestimmte Mutter' this means that one or two of these also could
belong to wife nr.1
Wjatscheslaw died 1010
Swjatoslaw died in battle (after 15 July) 1015, was married and had a son
born in 1002, this implies that if he is legitimate, he should be by
the
first wife.
Boris, died in battle 24/25 July 1015
Gleb, murdered (about 5 August) 1015
Mstislaw died ca.1035/36
Pozwizd, died after 1015
Sudislaw imprisoned from 1035 till 1059, died 1063/65
Stanislaw
daughter married to Bernhard IV der Nordmark
Premislawa died in 1015 wife of Laszlo of Hungary
Maria born before 1012 (is her mother the Greek wife or Anna of Byzantium?)
married Kasimierz of Poland
The year 1015 certainly took its toll. Wladimir I died, one daughter and one
son died, two sons killed in battle and one murdered!
A while ago I sent a message with an error to the Hull data base, as a reply
I received the message that there is a segment which displays all the known
errors. I find this disconcerting as, admittedly, I looked quickly and could
not see in what order these errors were displayed. However, worse, it seems
to expect everyone who uses the Hull data base to check everything with that
list and, also, it seems not to be appreciated when errors are pointed out.
Hope the details help?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
>
> *snip*
>
> >It is assumed that he had 3 sons and 2 daughters by Rogneda. The sons
> >would be Izyaslaw, Mstislaw and Yaroslaw (later called the Wise). The
> >daughters would be Dobrognewa and Predslawa.
>
> I have a daughter Premislava, later married to Ladislas the Bald. Is
> this the same as Predslawa?
>
> *snip*
>
> >P.S. Dobrognewa is the Polish spelling. The Russian one would be
> >Dobrogneva. In ca. 1042 she married Casimir I, King of Poland and had a
> >daughter called Maria by him.
>
> Had this daughter Marie another name as her mother did? I have only
> one daughter of Kazimierz: Swietoslava, later married to Wratislaw II
> of Bohemia.
>
> mvh
>
> Håvard Moe
> haavamoe krøllalfa online punktum no
> Besøk slekta mi: http://home.sol.no/~havmoe
>
D. Spencer Hines
to be interested in genealogical or historical accuracy.
He's marching to a different drummer.
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas
--
D. Spencer Hines --- Fortiter in re, sed suaviter in modo. A otro
perro con ese hueso.
Leo van de Pas <leov...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:001001bedbbf$ebc75be0$f84d3bcb@leo...
<liberal snipping>
Håvard Moe
>Vladimir, Grand Prince of Russia (?-1015) was, especially before his
>conversion to Christianity in 988, a rather licentious man. He had
>hundreds of concubines throughout Russia, 200 concubines in Belgorod
>alone.
>
>After his conversion, he married the daughter of Rogwold, Prince of
>Polotsk, having previously seized and ravaged her father's demesne and
>murdered his would-be father-in-law.
>
>Rogneda died in 1000. After which Vladimir married Anna, the sister of
>Byzantine Emperor Basil II. So much for his lawful wives.
The Hull database show the date for the marriage between Vladimir and
Rogneda as 989. I recon you have some better reference to this, hence
Hull is wrong?
*snip*
Andrew S. Kalinkin
Dear Leo,
The marital history of Vladimir is very complicated. You try to sort his wives
as a series of consequent marriages, but this makes no sense for pre-Christian
time. The sources clearly say that Vladimir lived and had children with several
women at the same time.
Here is list of Vladimir's wives from Nestor's chronicle (the order is how
Nestor lists them and not necessary chronological).
1) Rogneda, daughter of Prince Rogwolod of Polotsk. She refused to marry him,
so Vladimir took her by force, after conquerring Polotsk and murdering her
father and two brothers. They had four sons: Izyaslav, Mstislav, Yaroslav and
Vsevolod, and two daughters (they are not named, but later Nestor mentions
Yaroslav's sister Predslava). The story of Rogneda's marriage is placed under
year 980 in chronicle, but the chronology isn't very reliable and it is possible
that Nestor combined events of several years in one. Later Nestor said that
Rogneda's son Yaroslav died in 1054 aged 76, which makes him born ca.978.
After Vladimir's conversion to Christianity and dissolution of his pagan
marriages Rogneda became a noon and died in 1000 (not 1002).
2) "Greek woman", widow of his murdered (by him) brother Yaropolk. Their
relationship was short and left one son, Swyatopolk. If you belive Nestor,
she was already pregnant by Yaropolk when Vladimir took her, so Svyatopolk
was "son of two fathers". This happened soon after Yaropolk's murder in 980.
3) "Czech woman" (unnamed in Nestor but called Adela in some later chronicles).
She was mother of one son, Vysheslav. Vysheslav supposedly was Vladimir's
eldest son, so she was probably the first of his wives. As we know that Vladimir
spent several years before 980 in Scandinavia, it is not clear how he managed
to find a czech woman there. So probably more reliable is information preserved
by Tatischev (a 18th century historian, but he had in his possession ancient
chronicles which didn't survive), that Vysheslav's mother was a scandinavian
woman named Olava. This also fits information of sagas. called Vladimir's wife
Allogia.
4) "Another czech woman" (probably called Malfrida). She was mother of Svyatoslav
and Mstislav (again, probably an error). If this woman really was Malfrida, then
she died in 1000.
5) "Bulgarian woman" (called Mililika in later sources). She was mother of Boris
and Gleb.
After Vladimir's conversion to Christianity he repudiated all his former wives
and married princess Anna of Byzantium. The story of his conversion placed under
year 988, but an exact date of this event is uncertain, so this is probably why
ES cautioously dates this marriage 987/989. Anna died in 1011. No children is
attributed to this marriage in the sources written less than several hundreds
years later.
The German marriage for Vladimir after death of Anna was proposed by N.Baumgarten
(Le dernier marriage de saint Vladimir // Orientalia Christiana. Roma, 1930. Vol.
XVIII, N61). I have no idea what was evidence for this marriage, but it seems
generally accepted. Baumgarten attributed Maria-Dobronega, wife of Casimir, to this
marriage, but this attribution accepted less universally. Alternative hypothesis
makes Dobronega daughter of Yaroslav rather than Vladimir.
Now more about Vladimir's children. In addition to the list of wives and children
mentioned above, Nestor's chronicle contains more complete list of Vladimir's sons,
but this time without mothers. There are twelve: Vysheslav, Izyaslav, Svyatopolk,
Yaroslav, Vsevolod, Svyatoslav, Mstislav, Boris, Gleb, Stanislav, Pozvizd, Sudislav.
Vysheslav was appointed by his father Prince of Novgorod, but died there in 1010.
Izyaslav became Prince of Polotsk, the ancestral land of his mother. He died in
1001, but left two sons and his descedants kept Polotsk.
Svyatopolk was Prince of Turov during his father's lifetime. After Vladimir's death
15 July 1015 he inherited Kiev, but in the followed succession war lost to his
brother Yaroslav and died (or was killed) in 1019. After his death chroniclers on
Yaroslav's service appointed him Chief Villain of Russian history (in the same fashion
as Richard III), so he is officially known as Svyatopolk the Accursed.
Yaroslav was originally Prince of Rostov, after death of Vysheslav moved to Novgorod.
He won succession war after the death of Vladimir and ruled in Kiev until his death
20 February 1054. As he won, he is officially known as Yaroslav the Wise.
Vsevolod became Prince of Vladimir (on Volhyn), but then disappeared. Sometimes he
is identified with king Vissavald from Gardarike, one of two victims of infamous
Sigrid Storrada. They have the same name and are from the same country. Is this
enough to claim that they are the same? Who knows...
Svyatoslav was Prince of Drevlyans. He perished during the wars after Vladimir's
death. According to official version, he was murdered by Svyatopolk's order when
he attempted to flee to Hungary.
Mstislav was Prince of Tmutarakan, a Russian anclave on Black sea coast. He returned
to Russia in 1024, defeated Yaroslav in battle and then made peace with him, keeping
half of Russia on the left bank of Dniepr (with his capital in Chernigov). His only
son Eustafy died in 1033, and Mstislav himself in 1036, so after his death Yaroslav
reunited Russia.
Boris was Prince of Rostov. He was murdered 24 July (or, by some later sources,
12 August) 1015. The murder is, of course, attributed to Svyatopolk, although
Eimund's saga claims that he was finished by Eimund, leader of band of scandinavian
mercenaries on Yaroslav's service.
Gleb was Prince of Murom. He was murdered 5 September 1015.
About Stanislav and Pozvizd I have nothing to add.
Sudislav was Prince of Pskov. He was arrestedand imprisoned by order of Yaroslav
in 1036. In 1059 he was freed by Yaroslav's sons and retired to monastery, where
he died in 1063.
Hope this helps?