Keats-Rohan & the Gant family
Douglas Richardson
If someone has access to Katharine Keats-Rohan's book, Domesday
Descendants, I'd appreciate it very much if they could copy out the
children she assigns to Gilbert de Gant, the Domesday tenant, who died
c. 1095, and also the children she assigns to his son, Walter de Gant,
of Folkingham, Lincolnshire, who died in 1139. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
al...@mindspring.com
DD, p 472.
Walter's children:
1. Gilbert
2. Robert
3. Margaret wife of Otto fiz William
4. Alice wife of Ilbert de Lacy and Roger de Mowbray
DP, p 210
Gilbert I's children:
1. Emma wife of Alan de Percy
2. nn wife of Ivo de Grandmesnil
3. poosible daughter who married a Baldwin
4. Gilbert
5. Robert.
6. Walter
Doug Smith
Bevan Shortridge
The entry for Gilbert de Gand II in DD (p. 471) (identified as son of Walter and Matilda) mentions:
"Earl of Lincoln under King Stephen 1147-48. At that time he made a grant to Bridlington for the soul of his brother Baldwin attested by Geoffrey and Robert de Gant, Philip de Kyme his dapifer and Herbert fitz Alard his constable (BL. Lansdowne 40008, fol. 34)."
Keats-Rohan would seem to have added a Baldwin to the children of Walter and Matilda in this entry,
with the reference to Gilbert de Gant's brother.
Note that Baldwin is not mentioned under Walter de Gant's entry on p. 472.
Regards,
Bevan
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for posting the information on the Gant family from Katharine
Keats-Rohan's book, Domesday Descendants. Much appreciated.
I see Keats-Rohan excludes William Fitz Neal's wife, Alice (or Adeliz)
as a child of Gilbert de Gant (died c. 1095). By any chance, does she
explain this?
As per your post, I note that on pg. 472 that she has excluded Agnes,
daughter of Walter de Gant, who married (1st) William de Mohun (living
c. 1142), of Dunster, Somerset, and presumably (2nd) Richard [le]
Scrope, of Barton upon Humber, Lincolnshire (living c. 1147). However,
elsewhere Bevan reports that Agnes, wife of William de Mohun, is
correctly named as Walter de Gant's daughter by Keats-Rohan on pg. 470.
Dr. Keats-Rohan has stated to me privately that upon reviewing the
evidence I submitted to her that she agrees that Margaret, wife of Otes
Fitz William, was actually the daughter of Robert Fitz Harding, of
Bristol, not Walter de Gant, of Folkingham, Lincolnshire.
Next, I see that Keats-Rohan, pg. 210, has excluded Hugh, seigneur of
Montfort-sur-Risle, as a son of Gilbert de Gant (died c. 1095) and his
wife, Alice de Montfort. Farrer accepts him as a son.
Lastly, I see that William Farrer assigned Walter de Gant two more sons
who are not listed by Keats-Rohan on pg. 472, namely Geoffrey de Gant
and Baldwin de Gant [canon of Bridlington]. The evidence for these
extra sons is a charter published by Farrer dated c. 1139-1147 which
was issued by Walter de Gant's son and heir, Gilbert de Gant
(afterwards Earl of Lincoln). The charter was witnessed by Geoffrey,
Robert, and Baldwin, brothers of Gilbert de Gant ("fratibus Gilberti de
Gant") [Reference: William Farrer, Early Yorkshire Charters, 2 (1915):
429]. I also note that Geoffrey de Gant witnessed another charter for
his brother, Gilbert de Gant, then Earl of Lincoln, in the period, c.
1150-1156 [Reference: Ibid., pg. 429-430]. I assume Baldwin de Gant
can be verfied as a canon of Bridlington in the published Bridlington
Chartulary.
So, we have several additions and corrections here for Keats-Rohan.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Bevan Shortridge
You wrote:
>Next, I see that Keats-Rohan, pg. 210, has excluded Hugh, seigneur of
>Montfort-sur-Risle, as a son of Gilbert de Gant (died c. 1095) and his
>wife, Alice de Montfort. Farrer accepts him as a son.
Actually, he seems to be included by Dr. Keats-Rohan in DD under
Gand, Hugo de (DD, pp. 471-2)
("A son of Gilbert I de Gand and Alice de Montfort")
The entry for "de Montfort, Robert II" (DD, p. 597) states he (Robert) was "son
of Hugh de Gand and Adelina de Meulan. His father Hugh took the name de Montfort."
Regards,
Bevan
Douglas Richardson
Montfort-sur-Risle, is much appreciated.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Douglas Richardson
Checking my files, I see that Keats-Rohan's list of the children of
Walter de Gant in Domesday Descendants, pg. 472, excludes the name of
yet another child, a daughter who was the unnamed wife of William Fitz
Walter de Welle (he living 1197), of Wells, Lincolnshire, male line
ancestor of the Lords Welles. This daughter is assigned to Walter de
Gant by Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 437, footnote b, which cites in
turn Rotuli de Dominibus (Pipe Roll Soc.), pp. 5, 9, 11.
This couple were the subject of an earlier post of mine (see copy
below). Besides the Lords Welles, they are also ancestral to the
Tattershall family.
Can Doug or Bevan check to see if Keats-Rohan includes this couple
elsewhere in Domesday Descendants? Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
+ + + + + + + + + + +
COPY OF EARLIER POST
From: "Douglas Richardson royalances...@msn.com"
<royalances...@msn.com>
Date: 10 Aug 2005 11:10:39 -0700
Local: Wed, Aug 10 2005 12:10 pm
Subject: C.P. Addition: Welle(s) family of Lincolnshire
Dear Newsgroup ~
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 437 (sub Welles) has a good account
of Robert Fitz William de Welle (died c. 1206), the male line ancestor
of the subsequent Lords and Viscount Welles.
Latin transcripts of two of his charters to Bardney Abbey, Lincolnshire
have been published in recent time in A.E.B. Owen, The Medieval Lindsey
Marsh: Select Documents (Lincoln Rec. Soc. 85) (1996): 111. In the
first one, Robert Fitz William de Welle confirms the grant of lands in
Strubby, Lincolnshire made by his ancestors ("terram quam antecessores
mei dederunt eisdem monachis in Strubby"). The confirmation was made
on the day that his mother was buried in the monks' chapel at Bardney
("Hanc conessionem feci die quando mater mea sepulta fuit in capella
monachorum apud Bard' pro anima eius et pro salute mea et meorum"].
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 437 (sub Welles) shows that Robert's
mother, whose given name is unknown, was a sister of Gilbert de Gant,
Earl of Lincoln. Thus, we know from this grant that Robert's mother,
_____ de Gant, was buried at Bardney Abbey. She evidently died
sometime after Robert Fitz William had succeeded to his father's
estates.
In the second grant, Robert Fitz William de Welle conveyed lands to
Bardney Abbey held from him in Anderby, Lincolnshire by Robert Fitz
Wischard, together with the said Robert Fitz Wiscard, his wife, and
offspring. This grant was made when the abbey received Robert Fitz
William de Welle's father as a monk ["Hanc donacionem feci quando
monachi apud Bard' receperunt patrem meum in monachum"].
Complete Peerage, 12 Pt. 2 (1959): 437 (sub Welles) makes no mention of
Robert's father, William Fitz Walter de Welle, becoming a monk at
Bardney. Rather, it assumes that William Fitz Walter de Welle "died
before 1198," when his son, Robert Fitz William, was answering for his
father's debts. Given that Robert's father, William, retired from
public life to monastic life before his death, it is incorrect to date
Walter's death by his son's succession to his estates. Rather, it
would be correct to say that William Fitz Walter de Welle occurs in
Pipe Rolls in 1191 and during the years 1194-97, after which date he
became a monk at Bardney Abbey. His wife, ___ de Gant, died sometime
after 1197, and was buried at Bardney Abbey.
Peter Stewart
"Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:1128908454.6...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> Dr. Keats-Rohan has stated to me privately that upon reviewing the
> evidence I submitted to her that she agrees that Margaret, wife of Otes
> Fitz William, was actually the daughter of Robert Fitz Harding, of
> Bristol, not Walter de Gant, of Folkingham, Lincolnshire.
But this "private" e-mail was published to the newsgroup - are you saying
that Dr Keats-Rohan knew her reply to you was not to remain private, or that
she thought it was so?
If the former, she hasn't stated this to you "privately". If the latter, how
can you possibly square this with your badgering of Leo about posting
private e-mails?
Peter Stewart
Bevan Shortridge
DD p. 781 has an entry for "de Welle, Willelm" as son of Walter fitz Rademer.
It states that "He married Matilda, sister of Gilbert de Gand."
Regards,
Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Richardson [mailto:royala...@msn.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 3:48 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Keats-Rohan & the Gant family
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for your prompt reply. Much appreciated.
Does Keats-Rohan give any source(s) to document the given name of
William Fitz Walter's wife? If so, I believe this would be a new
addition to Complete Peerage.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
John P. Ravilious
While I do not have Domesday People to hand, my notes concerning
Ragemer (or 'Rademer'), ancestor of the de Welle family, indicate that
the wife of Ragemer's grandson William fitz Walter, of Well, Lincs. and
Claxby, Norfolk, was identified by KSB K-R as a sister of Gilbert de
Gand, Earl of Lincoln (DP 326).
If Bevan could confirm that this note is correct, that would
certainly validate my notes, and the Tateshal ancestry now under
discussion.
Cheers,
John
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Dear Doug, Bevan, etc.
>
> Checking my files, I see that Keats-Rohan's list of the children of
> Walter de Gant in Domesday Descendants, pg. 472, excludes the name of
> yet another child, a daughter who was the unnamed wife of William Fitz
> Walter de Welle (he living 1197), of Wells, Lincolnshire, male line
> ancestor of the Lords Welles. This daughter is assigned to Walter de
> Gant by Complete Peerage, 12(2) (1959): 437, footnote b, which cites in
> turn Rotuli de Dominibus (Pipe Roll Soc.), pp. 5, 9, 11.
>
> This couple were the subject of an earlier post of mine (see copy
> below). Besides the Lords Welles, they are also ancestral to the
> Tattershall family.
>
> Can Doug or Bevan check to see if Keats-Rohan includes this couple
> elsewhere in Domesday Descendants? Thanks!
>>>>>>>>>>>> SNIP <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Douglas Richardson
>From time to time, I've posted e-mail replies from well known
historians who have kindly answered my queries. All such
communications have been positive and cordial in nature.
Leo van de Pas
everybody else does not apply to him. He is a trained genealogist and
therefor knows that he can do what he likes.
Standing on his soapbox he is above and beyond reason. Very sad!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: Keats-Rohan & the Gant family
>
Bevan Shortridge
Unfortunately I only have access to DD, not DP.
DD offers multiple references for the "de Welle, Willelm" entry, but none
seem to be singled out for the identification of his wife's name as Matilda
(CP under Welles and Tateshal identifies her unnamed as sister of Gilbert,
Earl of Lincoln as Douglas has pointed out).
Cheers, Bevan
-----Original Message-----
From: John P. Ravilious [mailto:the...@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 4:43 PM
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
Subject: Re: Keats-Rohan & the Gant family
CMc...@aol.com
DP, p. 326 says:
"Rademer II
Fleming, Domesday tenant of Gilbert de Gand. His grandson William fitz
Walter married a sister of Gilbert de Gand, earl of Lincoln."
Regards, Charlie McNett
In a message dated 10/10/2005 12:18:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Peter Stewart
> Dear Peter ~
>
> From time to time, I've posted e-mail replies from well known
> historians who have kindly answered my queries. All such
> communications have been positive and cordial in nature.
What has that got to do with whether or not you posted a private e-mail to
the newsgroup?
Had you asked permission from Katherine Keats-Rohan before posting her reply
to you?
If not, you have flagrantly breached the netiquette that you so smarmily
preach to others, and you clearly owe Leo an abject apology for your
hypocrisy in this matter.
Peter Stewart
al...@mindspring.com
Willelm de Welle "married Matilda, sister of Gilbert de Gand."
Doug
Douglas Richardson
Does Keats-Rohan give any source to substantiate the name of William
Fitz Walter (de Welle)'s wife, Maud (or Matilda)?
Also, I assume she mentions William Fitz Neal (Fitz Nigel), Constable
of Chester, in her book. Does she identify his wife, Alice (or
Adeliz)? Also, does she discuss William's connection to the Gant
family?
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
al...@mindspring.com
Will check when I am home later.
Doug
Jwc...@aol.com
Was this William Fitzwalter le Fleming
the father of that Reyner I le Fleming who was steward to the Earl of Surrey and
held a part of the manor of Wath -on-Dearne?
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
al...@mindspring.com
under Willelm Filius Nigelli
"William appears to have been related to Walter de Gand, who described
him as 'nepus meus'" based on VCH Lancashire i, 298. Refers to his son
William (dsp) and two daughters Agnes and Matilda.
Doug
The...@aol.com
Dear James, et al.,
Whatever the origins of William fitz Walter, he was evidently not
of the family of le Fleming of Wath, Yorkshire.
Following is what I've compiled to date on that family, down to
Mary le Fleming, wife of John Stansfield of Stansfield. Through this
marriage, we find a descent to Savile of New Hall, and a myriad of
descents royal (to Prince William) and non-royal.
Hope this is of interest. If you have any relevant Fleming (not
flaming) comments, corrections or additional documentation I'd be glad
to hear of them.
Cheers,
John
1 Reiner le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1148[1]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
' Rainer Flandrensis ', steward of the honour of Skipton
enfeoffed in the barony of Copeland by William le Meschin
(DD 979, cites Clay, EYC VII, nos 4, 6, 57; XI, no. 182)[1]
witness to a charter of William le Meschin founding the priory
of St. Bees, c. 1125, and two charters of Cecily de Rumilly
to Embsay priory, 1136-40 [Clay p. 33[2]], incl.
' Regner, steward ', witness to a Notification of grant dated
1131-1140:
1. Cecily de Rumel'
2. T[hurstan] Archbishop of York
Notification to Thurstan by Cecily of her confirmation of the grant
by which Helt' Mallevrer [Mauleverer] gave to the church of St
Cuthbert of 'ambesi' [Embsay] one and a half carucates of land at
Malham in pure and perpetual alms
Witnesses: Reginald, chaplain, writer of this deed; Regner,
steward; Ivo, constable; William Whithond; Walter Picot; Roger
Faffint' Tongue. ' No seal. [Thurstan was archbishop between 1119
and 1140] [Former ref: Monastic Houses. Box 65/1] [Publication Note:
Trans Bodl., MS. Dodsworth 144, ff 13, 61, from the Bolton Cartulary
ff 25, 115; Early Yorkshire Charters volume 7 no 6 ] - A2A, Yorkshire
Archaeological Society: H L Bradfer-Lawrence Collection
[SMD0335/5 - SMD0335/16], SMD0335/7/1[3]
Children: William (-<1166)
Walter
1.1 William le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1166[1]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
' Willelm Flandrensis ', succeeded his father ca. 1140; succeeded by
his son Reiner before 1166 (DD 980)[1]
his son, the founder of Kirklees priory, issued his charter as
'Reinerus Flandrensis, filius Willielmi Flandrensis'
[Mon.Angl. V:739, Num. I[4]]
Children: Reiner 'II'
William
1.1.1 Reiner 'II' le Fleming
----------------------------------------
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
held 1 1/2 knights' fees ' of the new feoffment of the honour of
Skipton, including land in Wath-upon-Dearne and elsewhere '
[Clay p. 33[2]]
'Rainer II Flandrensis', held 1/3 of a fee de novo (of the new
feoffment) of William de Percy, 1166 [Clay p. 33, states this was
in Rathmell, par. Giggleswick, of William de Percy[2]]
'Reinerus Flandrensis, filius Willielmi Flandrensis', founder of
Kirklees priory [Mon.Angl. V:739, Num. I[4]]
founder of Kirklees priory (DD 979-980, cites Red Book of the
Exchequer, pp. 424-26, 430-32; also Clay, EYC vol. XI, no. 182)[1]
_____________________________
his grant to Kirklees confirmed by William de Warenne, Earl of
Surrey (before c. 1240):
charter dated c1216 - c1272 [in error] :
Confirmation by William, Earl Warren (ob. 1240), of the grant by
Reinerus Flandrensis, son of William Flandrensis, to Kirklees
Nunnery, of lands, etc. Witnesses, Osbert Giffard, Auker de
Freschenvill, Willam de Albo Monasterio, Richard de Mednar, Baldwin
de Hersin, Thomas de Horbir, Seneschal of Earl Warrenne, William de
Livet, Jordan de Heton, John de Pleiz, clerk. ' [A2A, West Yorkshire
Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family of
Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/8[3]]
confirmation also by King Henry III, 18 Sept 1236 grant dated
c1327-c1352:
' Confirmation by Henry III. to Kirklees Nunnery of grants from Reyner
son of William Flandrensis, of the site of the house, Adam fil Peter
for repairs and firing, Robert son of Gilbert de Barkeston, Henry
Teutonicus, John fil Aumund, Agnes de Flammeuill, Reimund de Medelay.
Witnesses, W(illiam) elect 'Valent' (Bp. of Valence?), Peter de Malo
lacu (Manley), Hugh de Vinon, Godfrey de Craucumb, John fil. Philip,
Geoffrey dispenser, Henry de Capella. Dated at York by the hand of
Ralph (de Nevill), Bishop of Chichester Chancellor.' - A2A, West
Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family
of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/29[3]
Children: William (-<1234)
John (-<1251)
1.1.1.1 William le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1234, d.s.p.[1]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
succeeded his father 'before Michaelmas 1205' (DD p. 980)[1]
1.1.1.2 John le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 1251[5]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
succeeded his brother William before 1234 (DD p. 980, cites Clay,
EYC, XI, no. 182)[1]
' Sir John Flandrensis ', witness to lease dated 2 Feb 1240:
' Lease from the Priory of Kirklees to Sir John de Hetona, of a moiety
of their mill in Heton in Hednesley, for ten years from the Feast of
the Purification B.V.M. (2nd Feb.), 1240-1, at a rental of ten marks
with proviso as to right of way and the right of the convent to grind
at the said mill if they cannot grind at the mill at Cilfton, the said
Sir John to satisfy the Abbot of Fountains in a rental of three
shillings for the above term.
Witnesses, Sir John Flandrensis, Sir John de Thornhil, Sir Adam de
Mirfeld, Thomas Withand, Ralph Tagun, Richard de Camera, Henry fil
Alan, Matthew de Hopton.'
- A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of the
Armytage family of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/30[3]
grant dated c1216 - c1272:
' Grant by John Flandr(ensis) of Clifton, to Henry fil Godwin, of
land in Clifton, viz., in Helayker and Weterode, at a rental of two
shillings. Witnesses, Sir William Delond, steward of Earl Warren, Sir
Richard de Thornhil, Sir John de Sothil, John de Het', Robert de
Schelveley, William de Birton, Nicholas of the same, Henry de Hiperun,
Michael Tellenaz, Hugh de Coppel, Adam de Wytewode. ' - A2A, West
Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family
of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], KM/7[3]
charter dated c1216-c1245:
Grant by Sir John Flandrens(is) to Kirklees Priory, of his "nativa"
Alice daughter of William Doneiger (1), of Clifton.
Witnesses, Henry, son of Godwin de Clifton, Thomas de Grenegate,
Adam his brother John de Hatheweldun, Thomas del Clif, William Cade.'
Yorkshire Archaeological Journal, 16 ' - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive
Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall
[KM/1 - KM/857], KM/6[3]
he d. before 1251: his son,
" Reynerum le Flemeng' ", defendant together with Ralph de Horbury in
a suit of the prior of Pontefract, 1250 [C.R. 34 Hen. III, p. 243,
no. 1505[5]]
Children: Reiner
William (-1307)
1.1.1.2.1 Reiner le Fleming
----------------------------------------
of Wath upon Dearne, co. Yorks.
" Reynerum le Flemeng' ", defendant together with Ralph de Horbury in
a suit of the prior of Pontefract, 1250 [C.R. 34 Hen. III, p. 243,
no. 1505[5]]
1.1.1.2.2 William le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: 6 May 1307[6]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
' William Flemeng ', held the manor of Wath of the King in chief
' as of the honour of the castle of Skipton in Cravene one knight's
fee', also 'the manor of Clyfton of the Earl of Warrenne by fealty
and suit at the Earl of Warrenne's court at Wakefeud every three
weeks, and by a rent of 20s.' [IPM of William le Fleming, Yorks.
Inqs. IV:138-140[6]]
'Willelmus [le] Flemyng', fined 6d. for 1/4 part of the manor of
Hoyland in the parish of Wath upon Dearne of the honor of Skipton,
ca. 1281:
" HOLAN(D) ANSTIN. Medietas ejusdem villae, quae tenetur de Roberto
Tebethorp, xijd. pro eodem fine, et viijd. de auxilio vicecomitis.
Willelmus [le] Flemyng pro iiij parte ejusdem villae, quam tenet de
feodo de Skypton, vjd. pro eodem fine. [Kirkby's Inquest,
p. 8 - "Hoyland, in the parish of Wath upon Dearne (S. Yorks., ii.,
100)."][7]
' William de fleming ', witness (together with Sir William
FitzWilliam FitzThomas, Sir Hugh de Eland, Sir John de Sotehill and
others) to grant by Thomas de Horbyri, brother and heir of John of
Horbyri to Sir Nicholas de Wortelay of the manor of Shetelingthon
[Shitlington], ca. 1300 [A2A, Sheffield Archives: Wharncliffe
Muniments [Wh M/D/01 - Wh M/P/13], Wh M/D/627[3]
'William le Flemyng', holding Wath upon Dearne in 1302-3.
(FA, vi, pp. 130, 198).[8]
IPM of William le Flemeng' or Fleming', at Preston in Craven
(10 June 1307) and at Wath (4 June 1307) [Yorks. Inqs. IV:138-140[6]]
Children: Reiner (<1267-<1314)
1.1.1.2.2.1 Reiner le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Birth: bef 4 Jun 1267[6]
Death: bef 28 Jul 1314[9]
of Wath on Dearn, co. Yorks.
succeeded his father before September 1312:
' Reyner le Flemyng ' , had charters for a market and fair at
Wathe-upon-Dearne granted 7 Sept 1312, by King Edward II (CChR,
1300-26, p. 195), 'To be held at the manor.'(CChR, 1300-26, p. 195)[8]
Spouse: Eglantine de Horbury
Father: Sir Ralph de Horbury (->1251)
Children: Sir John (-<1324)
1.1.1.2.2.1.1 Sir John le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 26 May 1324[9]
of Dalton, Rathmill, Wath on Dearn, Clifton, Dewsbury and
Brampton-next-Wold, co. Yorks.
held l knight's fee at Wath, late of Robert de Clifford, 28 Jul
1314; and 1/12 fee at Routhmell, co. York, late of Henry de Percy,
10 Oct 1314 (Inq.p.m.)[9]
summoned as a knight of Yorkshire to the Great Council at
Westminster, 9 May 1324[9]
grant dated c1327-c1352:
' Grant by John le Fleming miles to Thomas de Quitwoed, of lands
which Roger de Perci held in Clifton, paying annually to Earl Warren
three shillings for all services and customs.
Witnesses, Dom. John de Eland, Thomas de Thornill. John de
Pontef(ract), Thomas de Totehill, John del Clye Richard de Scae, and
many others.' - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale:
Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857],KM/24[3]
Spouse: Joan de Fauconberge
Father: Sir Walter de Fauconberge (-1304)
Mother: Agnes de Brus (-<1280)
Children: Thomas (->1343)
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1 Thomas le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 9 Mar 1343[3]
of Wath on Dearn and Clifton, co. Yorks.
succeeded his father, 1324[10]
release dated 9 March 1343/44 :
' Thomas Flemyngs of Clifton to John Fitzwilliam, of all burdens, dues
and services due in his 3 weekly court for the manor of Wath.
For a red rose at the Nativity of St John the Baptist (24 June).
Witnesses: Bryan de Thornhill, William de Fyncheden, Elis de Bryton,
John de Dranfeld, John de Wodehall de Wath.
At Emley, Sunday before St Gregory (12 March), 1343/4.' [A2A,
Sheffield Archives: Wentworth Woodhouse Muniments [WWM/C-WWM/E],WWM/D/32[3]
' Thomas son of Sir John Flemyng, knight ', conveyance dated 11 Nov 1349 :
' Conveyance by Thomas son of Sir John Flemyng, knight, to Roger de Clifton,
of a tenement in Clifton for ten years, at a rental of four shillings a
year. Witnesses, Thomas de Haseldene, John de Maudeslay, William de
Tarlton, John Haget. ' - A2A, West Yorkshire Archive Service, Calderdale:
Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall [KM/1 - KM/857], Deeds
relating to BRIESTFIELD - KM/62 [3]
Children: John (->1354)
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1 John le Fleming
----------------------------------------
Death: aft 13 Jan 1354[3]
of Wath on Dearn, co. York
' John Flemmyng, lord of Clifton ', demised to Wiliam de Bretton his lands
in Dalton 'from Martinmas, 1339, for a term of 20 years.... at a yearly
rent of 8 quarters of good wheat (frumenti) and 65 quarters of average
(sufficientis) oats...' [Yorks. Deeds pp. 19-20, No. 60[11]]
' Sir John Flemyng, ' witness to grant dated 13 Jan 1355:
" Grant by John son of John de Eland, knight, to John de Eland, knight, and
Alina his wife, of the manor of Bryghowse, with all appurtenances and
members, and to their heirs male.
Witnesses, Sir Brian de Thornhill, Sir John Flemyng, knights, Adam de
Hopton, Thomas Lacye, Thomas de ffenton. " - PRO, West Yorkshire Archive
Service, Calderdale: Papers of the Armytage family of Kirklees Hall
[KM/1 - KM/857], Deeds relating to CLIFTON: KM/64[3]
Spouse: Alice[12]
Marr: ca 1363[12]
Children: John
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.1 John Fleming[13]
----------------------------------------
esq., of Wath, co. York [13]
John Fleming, esq. of Wathe', pedigree of Crompton-Stansfield, of
Esholt Hall [Burke's Commoners III:60[14]]
~ called Wathe in error in Burke's Commoners[14]
Children: Mary
Thomas (ca1380-)
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 Mary Fleming[13]
----------------------------------------
'Mary Fleming, dau. of John Fleming, esq. of Wathe', pedigree of
Crompton-Stansfield, of Esholt Hall [Burke's Commoners III:60[14]]
~ GENEALOGICS 'unknown'
Spouse: John Stansfield[15],[13]
Birth: 1380[12]
Father: Thomas Stansfield (1350-)
Mother: Barbara Lascelles
Marr: 1410[14],[12]
Children: Anne (1425-), m. Thomas Savile of Hullenedge
GENEALOGICS #I00425532
Thomas
Henry
Isabel
Jane (-<1499)
Elizabeth
Mary
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.2 Thomas Fleming
----------------------------------------
Birth: ca 1380[12]
of Wath, co. York[12]
Reference: WYL230/17
Feoffment dated 29 Mar 1410
' From Richard de Goldesburgh, knight, to Hannlatheus Mawleverer, knight,
Robert de Rokelay, John de Hamerton, Thomas de Goldesburgh, John Drannfeld,
Roger de Preston, John Byrnnand John Mennell, William Pansay, William de
Hoperton, Henry Waryn and William de Ledes of Ripon of his manors of
Kexbrough and Skalwell (Swallow Hill?)
Witnesses: Robert de Rokelay, knight, Thomas Flemmyng, knight, John fitz
William.
Given at Kexbrough Saturday after Easter 11 Henry IV (29 March 1410)
Seal: fragments of red wax seal on tag.[3]
Spouse: Isabel
Children: John (1409-)
1.1.1.2.2.1.1.1.1.1.2.1 John Fleming
----------------------------------------
Birth: 1409[12]
of Wath, co. York
Children: Wiliam
1. K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, "Domesday Descendants," The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge, 2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2, 2002,
p. 723 (Osmund de Stuteville), full title: Domesday Descendants: A
Prosopography of Persons, Occurring in English Documents 1066-1166: Pipe
Rolls to Cartae Baronum.
2. Sir Charles Clay, ed., "Early Yorkshire Families," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), 1973, Vol. CXXXV.
3. "Access to Archives," http://www.a2a.pro.gov.uk/
4. Sir William Dugdale, "Monasticon Anglicanum," London: Harding & Lepard;
and Longman Rees... Green, 1830, Vol. VI, Pt. 1 - Austin Abbey of
Wigmore, in Herefordshire, pp. 348-356 [Fundationis et Fundatorum
Historia], Vol. VI, Pt. 2 - Priory of Bullington, co. Lincs., pp.
951-954, URL
http://monasticmatrix.usc.edu/bibliographia/index.php?function=detail&id=2659.
5. David Crook, ed., "Curia Regis Rolls of the Reign of Henry III," London:
The Boydell Press, Vol. XIX (33 to 34 Henry III, 1249-1250).
6. William Brown, B.A., ed., "Yorkshire Inquisitions," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series), various dates:, Vol. I (Record
series vol. XII) - 1892, Vol. II(Record series vol. XXIII) - 1898,
Vol. III (Record series vol. XXXI) - 1902, Vol. IV (Record series vol.
XXXVII) - 1906.
7. John de Kirkby, "The survey of the county of York taken by John de
Kirkby, commonly called Kirkby's Inquest," also inquisitions of knights'
fees, the Nomina villarum for Yorkshire, and an appendix of illustrative
documents, Durham: Pub. for the Society by Andrews and Co., 1867.
8. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
9. Rev. Charles Moor, D.D., F.S.A., "Knights of Edward I," Pubs. of the
Harleian Society, 1929-1930, 3 Vols. (Vols. 80-83 in series).
10. Don Bleach, "The First History of Watts Family,"
http://www.bleach.net/genealogy/watts/book/
11. William Brown, F.S.A., ed., "Yorkshire Deeds, Vol. III," The Yorkshire
Archaeological Society, Record Series, 1922, Record series vol.
LXIII - for the year 1922.
12. "International Genealogical Index," http://www.familysearch.org
13. "The Stanfield Family," from History of a Stanfield Family, by Oscar
C. Stanfield, Cheyenne, WY, 1961 (extracted 8/28/2000,
http://www.home.sprynet.com/~jrichmon/stfdfm01
14. John Burke, Esq., "A Genealogical and Heraldic History of the Commoners
of Great Britain and Ireland," Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co.,
Vol. III (repub., 1977), pp. 60-61 (Crompton-Stansfield of Esholt Hall),
pp. 548 et seq. (Constable of Wassand).
15. "Pedigrees of the County Families of Yorkshire," compiled by Joseph
Foster, London: W. Wilfred Head, 1874 (2 Vols.).
16. Genealogics, Leo van de Pas, http://www.genealogics.org
* John P. Ravilious
CMc...@aol.com
indicated it with <<<<<<<<<<<<
<<<<< John said:
Monday, 10 October, 2005
Dear James, et al.,
Whatever the origins of William fitz Walter, he was evidently not
of the family of le Fleming of Wath, Yorkshire.
Following is what I've compiled to date on that family, down to
Mary le Fleming, wife of John Stansfield of Stansfield. Through this
marriage, we find a descent to Savile of New Hall, and a myriad of
descents royal (to Prince William) and non-royal.
Hope this is of interest. If you have any relevant Fleming (not
flaming) comments, corrections or additional documentation I'd be glad
to hear of them.
Cheers,
John
snipped
<<<<<<<<<<<<
John, James, etc.
Bevan did not have DP to look up the line of William Fitz Walter, so I did.
I have no idea why Keats-Rohan referred to his grandfather as "Fleming", but
it was quoted by me. He is Rademer II, a Fleming, who lead to the de Welles.
Two peope with the same name and other similarities. So John's notes are
certainly borne out.
Regards, Charlie McNett
Douglas Richardson
Thank you for posting this information from Keats-Rohan, Domesday
People. Much appreciated.
VCH Lancashire, 1 (1906): 298 gives the following information about
William Fitz Neal (otherwise known as William Fitz Nigel), Constable of
Chester:
"His death probably occured before 1130 [5], but he was certainly
living in 1125, when he attested Walter de Gant's confirmation of his
former gifts at Bardney.[6] He is described in another charter [7] of
Walter de Gant as 'nepos meus," which suggests he was cousin-german of
Walter. This is rendered the more probably from the cousin's sister
being styled Agnes de Gant.[8] The connection may have been by descent
by common grandparents. His son and successor, William fitz William,
removed the priory of Runcorn to Norton, and further endowed it with
the vill of Norton in exchange for Runcorn and Staining,[9] which
latter vill was afterwards bestowed upon the abbey of Stanlaw. He also
confirmed his father's gifts to Norton Priory by a charter executed
between 1138 and 1150 [10], and he or his successor also gave the
moiety of the demesne tithes of Widnes and two oxgangs of land in
Tarbock. All these gifts were confirmed by Henry II. in a charter
which passed at Wallingford about 10 April, 1155. [11] William fitz
William died in Normandy, so says the chronicler of Norton, presumably
before 1149, when Eustace fitz John, his successor, attested a charter
of Ranulf, earl of Chester, as 'constabularius Cestrie.' [13] Dying
without issue, William's inheritance was divided between his two
sisters, Agnes, who married Eustace fitz John [14], lord of
Knaresborough (being his second wife), and Maud, who had married Albert
Grelley, lord of Manchester. [15]
Footnotes:
[6] Monasticon Anglican i. 630b.
[7] Ibid. 629b.
[8] Ormerod, Hist. of Cheshire (edit. Helsby), i. 691b.
[9] Ibid.
[10] Ibid.
[11] Monasticon Anglican vi. 314b.
[12] Ibid. 315b.
[13] Farrer, Lanc. Pipe R. 319.
[14] Monasticon Anglican vi. 955.
[15] Ibid. 315b, Duchy of Lanc. Misc. 3/32.
As we can see above, the name of William Fitz Neal's wife, Alice (or
Adeliz), is not mentioned in the VCH Lancaster account. And, I assume
from what Doug has posted, that Keats-Rohan also makes no mention of
her. If so, William Fitz Neal's wife's name, Alice (or Adeliz), would
be a new addition to Keats-Rohan's book.
Insofar as VCH Lancaster's statement that William Fitz Neal's sister,
Agnes, used the surname, Gant, Ormerod (who was the source) actually
stated that it was William Fitz Neal's daughter who was known as Agnes
de Gant. I'm prepared to accept Ormerod's statement at face value that
Agnes used the surname Gant. While Ormerod has his flaws, he was
certainly knowledgeable enough about all of these people and should
have been able to recognize the woman who he encountered in a charter
using the name, Agnes de Gant. Having said that, I find it doubtful
that Agnes daughter of William Fitz Neal would have employed the
surname, Gant, unless her mother was a member of that family. But, if
so, that brings us to another problem, namely, that Agnes' father,
William Fitz Neal, was called "nepote" [nephew or kinsman] not
"sororius" [brother-in-law] by Walter de Gant. For Agnes' mother to be
a Gant, then William Fitz Neal should be "sororius" to Walter de Gant,
not "nepote."
Rather than glide over this problem, I think a solution is at hand. In
a post I made yesterday, I pointed out that in an undated charter of
John, Constable of Chester (died 1190), his son Roger witnessed the
charter as "Rogero constabulario Cestrie." Farrer, Loyd and Stenton
all believed that this was a scribal error in the charter, evidently
believing it to be impossible for a father and son to both be constable
at the same time. However, IF it was possible, then we may be onto our
solution. I suspect this charter was issued shortly before John,
Constable of Chester, left on crusade in the Holy Land, where he
eventually died. The charter is witnessed by John's eldest three sons.
This suggests to me the charter was issued towards the end of John's
life, when his sons were of the age to be witnesses. If so, then
perhaps his son, Roger, was appointed to officiate in the office of
Constable in his stead during John's absence in the Holy Land. Ergo,
two constables.
If so, this could provide us with the solution to the earlier charter
dated 1115 involving Walter de Gant and his "nepote," William,
Constable of Chester. If the person called "nepote" by Walter de Gant
was actually William Fitz William (not his father), then we may have
yet another example of a father and son both holding the office of
Constable at the same time. We know from other records that both
William Fitz Neal and his son, William Fitz William, were both living
in 1115. And, in this case, we know that William Fitz Neal spent time
in Normandy, as he reportedly died there; if so, perhaps his son,
William Fitz William, acted as Constable of Chester during his absences
in Normandy. Ergo, two constables.
As for other evidence that William Fitz Neal's wife, Alice (or Adeliz)
being a Gant, I note that William Fitz Neal is known to have held the
manor of Bessingby, Lincolnshire, which was a Gant fee. I believe this
was probably his wife's maritagium. And, like other known Gant
in-laws, he was a benefactor to Bridlington Priory which was founded by
Walter de Gant.
Comments are invited.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Insofar as VCH Lancaster's statement that William Fitz Neal's sister,
> Agnes, used the surname, Gant, Ormerod (who was the source) actually
> stated that it was William Fitz Neal's daughter who was known as Agnes
> de Gant. I'm prepared to accept Ormerod's statement at face value that
> Agnes used the surname Gant. While Ormerod has his flaws, he was
> certainly knowledgeable enough about all of these people and should
> have been able to recognize the woman who he encountered in a charter
> using the name, Agnes de Gant. Having said that, I find it doubtful
> that Agnes daughter of William Fitz Neal would have employed the
> surname, Gant, unless her mother was a member of that family. But, if
> so, that brings us to another problem, namely, that Agnes' father,
> William Fitz Neal, was called "nepote" [nephew or kinsman] not
> "sororius" [brother-in-law] by Walter de Gant. For Agnes' mother to be
> a Gant, then William Fitz Neal should be "sororius" to Walter de Gant,
> not "nepote."
And why not simply assume (without blinking, of course) that a scribal
error is responsible for the surname "de Gant"?
> Rather than glide over this problem, I think a solution is at hand. In
> a post I made yesterday, I pointed out that in an undated charter of
> John, Constable of Chester (died 1190), his son Roger witnessed the
> charter as "Rogero constabulario Cestrie." Farrer, Loyd and Stenton
> all believed that this was a scribal error in the charter, evidently
> believing it to be impossible for a father and son to both be constable
> at the same time. However, IF it was possible, then we may be onto our
> solution. I suspect this charter was issued shortly before John,
> Constable of Chester, left on crusade in the Holy Land, where he
> eventually died. The charter is witnessed by John's eldest three sons.
> This suggests to me the charter was issued towards the end of John's
> life, when his sons were of the age to be witnesses. If so, then
> perhaps his son, Roger, was appointed to officiate in the office of
> Constable in his stead during John's absence in the Holy Land. Ergo,
> two constables.
Don't trip over yourself in haste to find a convenient solution - do
you know that the document with two constables is an original, not a
later copy made when the son Roger had succeeded his father and
anachronistically giving him the office in a document from his father's
time?
It's only a week since you were insisting that Roger must have been a
minor at the time his father died in 1190, and now you are arguing for
him and his younger brothers all to have been of age before John had
even departed on crusade (as suggested to you but rejected at the
time), again without blinking.
Peter Stewart
Jwc...@aol.com
I have two lines of descent from Lionel, Lord Welles,
whose wife Joan Waterton was the daughter of Sir Robert Waterton, Kt. of
Methley, York by his 2nd wife Cecily le Fleming whose ancestral line is currently
unknown as to specifics but who may have been connected to the Flemings of
Wath-on-Dearne and Clifton rather than first wife Joan de Everingham who appears to
have left issue only by her 1st marriage. Everingham descended thru Elys, was
breifly held by Robert Waterton, Joan`s 2nd husband who turned it over to her
son Robert Elys, then it went thru the Poucher, Sothill and Constable
families rather than to Waterton`s son and then Lady Welles` daughters. I descend
from Margaret via Dymoke, Goodricke and Bolles and through Eleanor via Hoo,
Lewknor, Machell and Cudworth. Thanks for the
compliment and don`t underestimate your own contributions You never know when any
of us may locate that elusive piece in any puzzle of our collective ancestry.