Mandevilles of Normandy, England, Wales and Ireland

[Michael o Hearn]

M. Seguin was of the opinion that the families of Bertrand de Bricquebec and their branch du Rozel which became Russell in England shared a common ancestry with several families from the Cotentin Peninsula in Normandy including those of Mandeville and branches of de Sottevast, de Vere, and Coker of Somersetshire.  While the arguments are compelling, it would seem more likely that Mandeville descends from a 10th century Norse Viking ancestor Manno or Magnus, as the Duchess of Cleveland contends.  The counter argument seems to be based on the Bertrand estate of Barneville (a quo de Barneville) which apparently was named after a Viking named Bjorn unrelated to the family of Bertrand.  Also, Seguin was of the opinion that the Mandevilles and other families were already established in Manche before the English Conquest in 1066, and that they often times used different surnames or variations of surnames so that the family connections are not always obvious.

There is a supposed heraldic identity between the arms of Bertram, which feature a lion rampant crowned, and those of de Mandeville and related Norman families before the Invasion.  However, this ancient heraldry does not appear to have survived in relation to the family of Mandeville,  Also, it has been suggested by Charles Percy on his website that many of the families on or near the Contentin Peninsula are actually of descent from the Low Countries dating back to Flemish settlement from the time of Matilda of Flanders marriage to Duke William at Eu circa 1051 as suggested by Beryl Platts (Scottish Hazard (Volume 1), The Procter Press 1985, page 141).  Evidence for this is again heraldic from a repitition of the Blue Lion rampant featured on the blazon of Robert Bruce. The Mandeville heraldry does have colors identical with those of Brugges in Belgium, these being or and gules which could signify a Flemish origin.

The Norse origin is reflected in the Norman French rendering of the name de Magneville which to me indicates that the original lord of the estate was one Manno or Magnus also born by an eleventh century saint of Orkney and a king of Norway at that time.  It is possible that Bertram descendants took over the estate or acquired it by inheritance before the 10th century, but there is no hard evidence to that effect.

By the 12th century, the families Mandeville were well represented throughout England and also in Wales, and became established in Antrim near Dunluce Castle, later to reemerge in Ireland in the form of Mansfield through re-translation and alliteration from the Irish form of the name de Moinbiol. (Patrick Woulfe, Irish Names and Surnames, 1906).

Michael O'Hearn

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[M.Sjostrom]

the name Magnus was not native to the Norse.
It was a latin, a western european loan name, and came to scandinavia in about 1020s,
when king Olav II the saint of Norway wanted to give his son a name to claim the fame of Charlemagne. Carolus magnus. The emperor's nickname 'Magnus' formed into a baptismal name.

I think it's an impractical notion (and chronologically impossible) to think that the Vikings who settled to Normandy in 10th century, would have brought the same name, 'Magnus'

The saint of that name in Orkney, lived in (early) 1100s.
again, I ask after chronology

[Michael o Hearn]

In "The Norman People and Their Existing Descendants, etc..." published by Henry s. King & Co., London (1874), the family is said to probably derive from Manno, a Northman Viking, who gave his name to the fief circa 930.  While this is not an authoritative source, it does agree with the Duchess of Cleveland. "The Battle Abbey Roll" London (1889).

I agree that the name Magnus is from Latin.  In the case of Magneville, the first part appears to be a Latinized rendering of the name Manno into Norman French.  If Manno was a Viking living in Normandy in the first half of the 10th century, this name may be one of the precursors of the name Magnus being used in the Scandinavian countries including the Orkneys in the 11th and 12th centuries.

It has been suggested by Mr. Stapleton in his Annotation to the Norman Rolls of the Exchequer that Adeliza de Balts, the first wife of Geoffey de Mandeville, was the sister of Eima or Anna who married Turstain Haldub lord of Hayes-du-Puits, and was mother of Eudo de Chapel.  Turstain Haldub is identified with Richard, second son of Anslec or Oslac, Baron of Bricquebec in 943 and grandfather of William Bertram of Bricquebec.  There is obviously some connection between the Bertrands and the Mandevilles.  Manno could have been related to Oslac as a cousin, but there is nothing to substantiate this claim.

[Renia]

Magneville means "large village". A mixture of Latin and French.

[M.Sjostrom]

Okay, the PLACE might have gained its name from someone whose name resembled 'Manno'.

BUT, there's the problem that such a man, eponymous to a place, cannot be made forefather of a lineage without proof.
His own existence is without near-contemporary testimony.
and there's no filiation testimony of a lineage really descending from him - and yet less testimony of such an alleged descent going to the de Mandevilles.

a family of 1000s may well have gotten its name from a placenasme, which placename could well have originated from a person of a totally other family.
So, discard the notion that the name Manno or Mande necessarily has anything to do with persons in roots of the de Mandeville.

secondly, nothing actually proves that any such Manno would been a Viking. That's just a figment of someones' imagination, deriviong from an idea that a place in Normandy should have received its name from a Norman man. But, probably several places in Normandy received their names from others than Normans.
All we know, that alleged 'Manno' could be a Frankish man, or a Roman, or a Celt....

I must say that these derivations of Norse ancestors upon this sort of flimsy evidence, they are bad genealogy. Bad.

[Michael o Hearn]

Connecting the Mandeviilles with the Bertrams was not my idea.

OK the place MIGHT have been is all we can say at this point.  Does that prove or disprove Seguin's theory that Magneville is a substitute for Bertram?

However, if we don't inquire, we will never be able to test our hypotheses.  My point is not that Thurstain Haldub did actually descend from Anslec, who IS an historical figure, so it matters not as far as I am concerned that some of the ancestors may or may not have been fictionalized.  My point is that the only basis for connecting him with Bertram's genealogy is that apparently the name Thurstain was handed down in the family.  There appears to be no other evidence.  Are we in agreement with that point or not?

Calling this "bull" may be a tos violation.  Try to keep it civil whether you agree or disagree please.

[M.Sjostrom]

crying for some 'tos violation' does not improve genealogical bullshit to anything better.

The bullshit is not going to become solid genealogy, even if someone tries to prevent others to say what bullshit it is.

[Michael O'Hearn]

In checking for the armorial bearings for Alured de Mayenne, I have come across another derivation for the surname Main, this being of Norman origin, from the Continental Germanic personal name Maino, Meino, a short form of the various compound names with a first element magin ‘strength’, ‘might’.  I have also in my family tree one Theodor Meinarz of Rheinland XVII century whose name has the same derivation.  This explains the personal name Manno in the X century which could have given rise to Magneville.  Whether this Manno was related to the Bertrans of Bricquebec is still an open question.

[Michael o Hearn]

During the reign of Henry I when William de Mandeville, father of the first earl of Essex, was Constable of the Tower of London, there were two brothers Geoffrey and Roger de Mandeville who apparently followed Henry from Normandy to England on his accession to the throne, receiving grants in the West of England from Henry, including manors in Devon and Wiltshire.  Meanwhile, Ernulf son of Geoffrey de Mandeville of Essex, held lands in Bratton and Estrop, Highworth in the reign of Henry II.  Robert de Mandeville also held lands in Bratton of the King in Chief. ("Erlestoke and It's Manor Lands" by John Watson-Taylor, The Wiltshire Archeological and Natural History Magazine, pp. 295, 300-311. June, 1903).  Also, there is Robert de Mandeville to whom Osbern of Fonthill-Giffard, Wilts resigned his Wiltshire barony in the reign of King John. (Battle Abbey Roll).

Also, in the Reign of King John, appears Robert de Mandeville in Ulster, apparently the first of the Mandevilles there, in about 1224.  (McNeill, T.E. "Anglo-Norman Ulster" , Edinburgh, 1980).  Could this person be the same as Robert de Mandeville of Wiltshire?

The armorial bearings of Mandeville of Wilts are, according to Burke's armory, "Quarterly, vert and gule a fess wavy between three trefoils counterchanged".  This differs markedly from the arms of the Earl of Essex so created by special charter of King Stephen.  It would seem to me that the trefoils or shamrocks also relate to the Mandevilles of Ireland insofar as this particular symbol was introduced into Ireland by the English as a symbol of the Holy Trinity, and not by St. Patrick as has previously been supposed, in the opinion of Maire B. de Paor.

Coker, believed by Seguin to be a branch of the Mandevilles, resided in Somerset where East Coker is memorialized by T.S. Eliot whose ancestors were also from that place.  Their armorial bearings are argent, three lion's heads or on a bend gule.  This may add to Seguin's theory that Mandeville and Coker are a branch of the House of Bertram of Bricquebec, insofar as the Bertram heraldic device is a lion rampant crowned.

[Michael o Hearn]

Continuing with this thread, if Tom McNeill was right about my cousin Robert Mandeville being the first to come over to Ulster in the reign of King John (although I have not been able to check this source), it is likely that he is the same person who acquired the Wiltshire barony from Lord Giffard.  Robert was the eldest of four heirs to this estate, and as Mandeville of Marshwood in Dorset as demonstrated by the noted genealogist J. Horace Round. (Round, "Giffard of Fonthill Giffard", The Ancestor, VI pp 137-139).

Of the two brothers Geoffrey and Roger de Mandeville who apparently followed Henry I from Normandy as mentioned previously, Geoffrey received the Manor of Marshwood in Dorsetshire, and Coker in Somersetshire.  There are two good diagrams showing the Wessex and Essex branches on pages 310 and 311 of the Watson-Taylor article in the Wiltshire Archeological and Natural History Society magazine referenced previously.

Referring to the Wessex diagram, I would venture to extend the lineage to include my cousin as follows:
                               ? of Mandeville, Normandy
       ________________________________________
       l                                                                               l
Geoffrey                                                                    Roger
       l
Robert=Margaret
       _________________________
       l                                                 l
Geoffrey                                      Robert
       l                                                 ?
Robert
       ?    
     

Viscount Mandeville