The Earls of Carrick and their descendants
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
Mention was made in the recent past to the research of Andrew B. W.
MacEwen concerning the (pre-Bruce) Earls of Carrick. One particular
problem (or group of problems) of long standing is the confusion
concerning Neil, Earl of Carrick (d. 1256) with regard to his
parentage, his marriage and his issue.
1. Earl Neil has been conflated with his father Nicol, the son
and heir of Duncan, earl of Carrick (d. 1250) as given in
Scots Peerage [1]. The existence of Nicol has been long
known, but has been both erroneously explained and
explained away [2]. Nicol has been identified as the son
and heir of Earl Duncan, who died in his father’s lifetime,
leaving Neil as heir to the Earldom.
2. Earl Neil has been ‘assigned’ a wife ' Margaret [dau. of
Alexander, Steward of Scotland], who is said to have been
married to Nigel or Neil of Galloway, Earl of Carrick ' [3].
No documentation has been found for such a wife of Earl Neil,
or a daughter of Alexander the Steward matching this
description: Andrew MacEwen has advised that this is an
error of Gordon, caused by confusion over the marriage of
Earl Neil’s grandfather Earl Duncan and Avelina [4].
The one wife of Earl Neil was Isabella, parentage unknown.
3. Earl Neil had four daughters, as Andrew MacEwen found in
a particular reference - the only daughter receiving
recognition being the eldest, Margaret, who brought the
earldom to her husbands, Sir Adam de Kilconquhar and Sir
Robert de Brus (father of _the Bruce_).
The next post in this thread will deal with Aufrica (elsewhere
Effrick), Earl Neil’s daughter who married Sir Colin Mor Campbell of
Argyll. For reference, below please find the pedigree of the Earls
of Carrick as I now have it, from Duncan, son of Fergus of Galloway,
to Earl Neil’s daughters and their issue.
Cheers, and a happy Thanksgiving to all (Yanks or no).
John
NOTES (to post)
[1] SP II:246 (Earls of Carrick).
[2] W. David H. Sellar, Bute Pursuivant of Arms, wrote an
interesting and confusion treatise on the subject,
"The Earliest Campbells - Norman, Briton or Gael?"
In this work, Mr. Sellar identified Nicol as a brother
of Earl Neil, and as being ‘correctly’ named Colinus
or Colin - the source of the name Colin in the
Campbell family (!). Excerpts from this work can be
readily read, courtesy of Clan Campbell Society (NA) at
http://www.ccsna.org/jsep11.htm
[3] SP I:12 (Kings of Scotland).
[4] In addition to Andrew MacEwen’s communication, see also
Richard Oram, The Lordship of Galloway (Edinburgh: John
Donald, 2000), p. 133.
1 Gilbert of Carrick
----------------------------------------
Death: 1 Jan 1185[1]
Occ: co-Lord of Galloway
Father: Fergus of Galloway (ca1096-1161)
Mother: NN
co-Lord of Galloway
Gael. Gilbrighte [Gillebride]
benefactor of the nunnery of North Berwick, founded by Duncan of Fife
ca. 1150 [Oram p. 89[2], cites North Berwick Carte, nos. 1, 13, 14, 28]
rebelled against King William of Scots, 1174; reconciled to William
and to King Henry II of England after Treaty of Falaise
paid homage and fealty to King Henry II at Feckenham, ca. 9 Oct 1176,
giving his son Donnchad (Duncan) as hostage [Oram p. 97[2], cites
Gesta Regis Henrici Secundi]
identification of his wife as Aufrica of Fife by Andrew MacEwen[4].
See also Oram, pp. 89-90[2]
___________________________
re: his wife Aufrica:
'Afreka' [Orkneyinga Saga[3]]
she m. 1stly Harald Maddadsson of Orkney, repudiated ca. 1168;
2ndly Gilbert of Carrick[4]
Spouse: Aufrica of Fife
Father: Duncan mac Duff, Earl of Fife (-1154)
Marr: ca 1169[4]
Children: Duncan (ca1170-1250)
Malcolm
NN
1.1 Duncan of Carrick
----------------------------------------
Death: 13 Jun 1250[1]
Birth: ca 1170[4]
Earl of Carrick
his father paid homage and fealty to King Henry II of England at
Feckenham, ca. 9 Oct 1176, giving his son Donnchad (Duncan) as hostage
[Oram p. 97[2], cites Gesta Regis Henrici Secundi]
probably freed following the death of Henry II and the quitclaim of
Richard I of England to King William of Scots, Canterbury, Dec 1189
created Earl of Carrick, on the separation of Carrick from Galloway,
ca. 1190-1196[1]
granted Maybole and Beath to Melrose priory, witnessed by cousin Roland
of Galloway, Mar 1198 or before [Oram p. 104, cites Melrose Liber,
no. 30[2]]
the account of the forfeiture of William de Breosa refers to his fleeing
to Ireland, and King John's siege of Carrickfergus castle, July 1210:
' Meanwhile his wife fled to Scotland with William and Reginald her
sons, and her private retinue, in the company of Hugh de Lacy, and
when the K. was at the capture of Carrickfergus castle, a certain
friend and cousin of his of Galweya, viz., Dunecan de Karyc, reported
to the K. that he had taken her and her daughter the wife of Roger de
Mortemer, and William junior, with his wife and two sons, but Hugh de
Lacy and Reginald had escaped. The K. sent John de Curcy and Godfrey
de Craucumb for them with crossbowmen and sergeants and two
galleys;...' [Bain I:81-82[5], cites Liber A, Chapter House, fol. 419]
co-Lord of the Glens of Antrim with Alan of Galloway, 1212[6]
gave certain lands to David de Graham, confirmed by King Alexander III,
charter dated at St. Andrew, 27 Dec 1253:
' donacionem illam quam Duncanus comes de Carrik fecit eidem Dauid de
quadam terra in territorio de Inuirgarvane cum pertinenciis suis,...'
[The Lennox II:13-15, No. 12[7]]
Gael. Donnchad
his marriage to Avelina (as dau. of Walter the Steward) based on
identification by Andrew B. W. MacEwen (cites Roger de Hoveden)[4].
Oram (p. 133) cites Hoveden, saying she was daughter of Alan[2]
Spouse: Avelina le Steward
Father: Alan fitz Walter, Steward of the King of Scotland (-1204)
Marr: Nov 1200[2]
Children: Nicol
1.1.1 Nicol of Carrick
----------------------------------------
heir of Carrick (d.v.p.)[4]
' Nicol de Carrick granted the Church of St Cuthbert, at Maybole, to
the nuns of North Berwick ', 1220 [J. M'Ewen[8]]
his identification (previously conflated with his son Neil) by Andrew
B. W. MacEwen [pending publication in next edition of G.W. S.Barrow,
Robert the Bruce[4]]
Children: Neil (ca1230-1256)
1.1.1.1 Neil of Carrick
----------------------------------------
Death: 1256[1]
Birth: ca 1230
Earl of Carrick
Gael. Niall [Latin: Nigellus]
co-Lord of the Glens of Antrim[6]
successor to his grandfather Duncan, 1250[9]
' Nigellus comes de Karrike ', one of the Regents of Scotland and
guardians of Alexander III, appointed 20 September 1255[1]
' Domino Comite Nigello de Carric ', witness [together with John de
Hastings, Gilbert de Hay and others] to a charter of Alan 'Durward'
grant two davachs of land in Luntrethen to Coupar priory, ca. 1250-56
[Coupar I:122-124, No. LV[10]]
______________________
re: his wife Isabella:
previously identified as ' Margaret [dau. of Alexander, Steward of
Scotland], who is said to have been married to Nigel or Neil of
Galloway, Earl of Carrick ' [SP I:12[6] ]. Andrew B. W. MacEwen has
proven that this is in error, due to a misunderstanding by Gordon as
to the relationship with the Stewarts (created by marriage of Duncan
of Carrick with Avelina).[4]
Spouse: Isabella
Children: Marjorie (-<1292)
Aufrica
NN, a daughter
NN, a daughter
1.1.1.1.1a Marjorie of Carrick*
----------------------------------------
Death: bef 9 Nov 1292[11]
Occ: Countess of Carrick suo jure
Countess of Carrick (eldest of four daughters)
her husband resigned the Earldom of Carrick to his son 9 Nov 1292,
following her death[1]
_____________________________
re: her 1st husband:
' Adam de Kylleconnech Comes de Carrick ', grants to Elias of
Kinninmonth and his heirs his whole land of Balgrummo in the shire
of Scoonie (in Scoonie, Fife), for his homage and service, to be
held as freely as Adam son of Odo ever held it performing the
forinsec service due to the lord king, and, to the grantor, the
third part of a knight's service for all secular service and demand.
The grantor warrants the land to Elias against all men and women
(c. 1266-70).[12]
' Charter by Adam of Kilconquhar, Earl of Carrick, confirming a
charter "by Reynold le Cheine, son of Reynold le Cheine, son of
Henry le Cheine," to Gilbert, son of Robert, Earl of Strathearn,
of his lands of Durie in the shire of Scoonie in Fife, which lands
were disponed by Duncan, son of Duncan, Earl of Fife, to Sir Hugh
of .... in marriage with Annabella, his daughter, the charter
confirmed being engrossed and both wanting dates. Witnesses
(to the Earl of Carrick's grant), Robert, Bishop of Dunblane,
Allan, abbot, and Hugh, prior of the "Ile" (Inchaffray), Sir
Alexander Comyn, Earl of Buchan, Sir (Malise), Earl of Strathearn,
Sir William, Earl of Mar, Sir William of Brechin. '
[SP VIII:245, note (1), noting, 'The writ must be between 1266
and 1269.'[6] ]
he d. 1270:
'Obiit Adam de Kilconcath, comes de Carrick cujus uxorem comitissam
de Carrick, postea Robertus de Brus, junior, accepit in sponsam,..'
[Crawfurd p. 21, citing Chronicle of Melrose[13] ]
_____________________________
re: her 2nd husband:
Earl of Carrick, de jure uxoris
[England] of Hartlepool, co. Durham, and Writtle, Baddow, Hatfield
Broadoak and Broomshawbury, Essex[1]
' Robertus de Brus comes de Carryke ', together with his father and
brother Richard, entered into a bond with Patrick, earl of Dunbar,
Walter, earl of Menteith and others at Turnberry, 20 Sept 1286
'to adhere to the party of Richard de Burgh, earl of Ulster
and Sir Thomas de Clare ' [Red Book of Menteith II: 219-220,
citing Historical Docs. Scotland, i:22[14] ]
' Brus comes de Carryk, Robertus de ' - swore allegiance to King
Edward I at Berwick, 1291 [Ragman Roll[15] ]
performed homage and had livery of his father's English lands, 4 Jul 1295
summoned to attend the King at Shrewsbury, 28 June 1283 by writ
directed 'Roberto de Brus comiti de Carrik'[1]
' In 1293, Robert de Brus had a market in Hartlepool, within the
liberties of the bp of Durham (QW, p. 604).'[16]
summoned to Parliament (England) from 24 June 1295 by writ directed
'Roberto de Brus', held thereby to have become Lord Brus[1]
Earl of Carrick in right of his wife;
resigned Earldom to son, 9 Nov 1292; Lord of Annandale 1292-1304[11]
' Robert Bruce, Earl of Carrick ', knight
: his arms are recorded ca. 1285 as
' Or a saltire and a chief gules ' (St. George's Roll E93[17])
Spouse: Adam de Kilconquhar [1st husband]
Death: 1270[13]
Children: Isabella de Kilconquhar, m. Thomas Randolph
1.1.1.1.1b Marjorie of Carrick* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Robert de Brus [2nd husband]
Death: bef 4 Apr 1304[11],[1]
Birth: Jul 1243[1]
Father: Robert de Brus (1210-1295)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (1226-<1275)
Marr: 1271[1]
Children: Robert I (1274-1329)
Edward (~1276-1318)
Christian (-ca1356)
Maud (->1323)
Mary
Isabella
Neil (-1306)
Thomas (-1306)
Alexander (-1306)
Margaret
1.1.1.1.2 Aufrica of Carrick
----------------------------------------
1st (or only) wife[18]
evidently Aufrica/Affrek of Carrick, as identified in earlier authorities
(discounted in SP[6]) and in which Andrew B. W. MacEwen concurs.[19]
~ the dispensation required for the marriage of William, earl of Ross
and Mary MacDonald (1342) supports this relationship.[20]
A slight divergence occurs in the account provided by the
Clan Campbell Society North America:
"More interesting is the account of Gillespic's marriage with `Efferic',
daughter of Colin of Carrick. This has been generally disbelieved,
the reason being, in the words of The Scots Peerage `there was no
Colin of Carrick known to history' (Scots Peerage:I.319). A record
of Colin of Carrick under that name there may not be, but a Nicholas
of Carrick appears on record more than once, and this Nicholas, there
can be no doubt, was a son of Duncan Earl of
Carrick ... Chronologically Nicholas fits." [21]
re: her husband:
lord of Loch Awe
' domino Colino Cambel, militi ', had grant from John mac Lamont
[' Johannes filius Lagmanni filii Aelcolmi [Malcolmi] M'Fercher ' ;
witnessed by lord Duncan mac Aulay, Dougal Campbell and others] of
the two pennylands of Kamesnemiclach and Hacheteyhewyne, ca. 1295
[Lamont Papers pp. 7-8, No. 10[22]]
evidently d. before 28 Aug 1296: his sons swore allegiance to King
Edward I of England at Berwick[15]; no record of same for Sir Colin
Mor
Gaelic: Cailean
cf. Campbell I:45 et seq.[23] [note: confused with his son Nichol, or
Nicholaus by the author]
Spouse: Sir Colin Mor de Campbell
Death: bef 28 Aug 1296
Father: Sir Gillespie [Archibald] de Campobello
Children: Nicholas (-<1305), of Ardskeodnish
NN, m. Angus Mor mac Donald
Sir Donald (->1320), of Lochgoil [Benderloch]
1.2 Malcolm of Carrick
----------------------------------------
leader of the assault against his uncle Uhtred of Galloway, 1174
cf. SP IV:137[6]
1.3 NN of Carrick
----------------------------------------
parent of the nephew of Duncan of Carrick
(Malcolm of Carrick, or a sibling)
Children: NN
1.3.1 NN of Carrick
----------------------------------------
nephew of Duncan of Carrick, had a grant of lands in Ireland from
King John of England, before 28 June 1213 (the date of the following
order):
' 578. The K. commands the Justiciar of Ireland, to give Robert
fitz Serlo a reasonable excambion for his land that the K. gave
to the nephew of Dunekan de Karrik. Bere (Regis). '
[Bain I:102[5], cites Close Roll 15 John, p. 2, m. 9.]
1. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage," 1910 - [microprint,
1982 (Alan Sutton) ], The Complete Peerage of England Scotland
Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom.
2. Richard Oram, "The Lordship of Galloway," Edinburgh: John
Donald, 2000.
3. "Orkneyinga Saga: The History of the Earls of Orkney," trans.
by Hermann Paulson and Paul Edwards, Penguin Books [orig by Hogarth
Press Ltd, 1978], 1984, Scots Peerage account cites Orkneyinga Saga
as main source.
4. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conference re: (1) Isabel de
Dunbar, wife of Roger fitz John of Warkworth (2) Christina
Stewart, countess of Dunbar; (3) Cecilia, dau. of John fitz Robert
of Wark, reference made to his publications on The Seven Countesses,
and 1999 article on Alexander Sutherland of Dunbeath and his
mistress, Catherine Chalmers, 28 October 2004, notes, library of
John P. Ravilious.
5. Joseph Bain, ed., "Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland,"
Edinburgh: Her Majesty's General Register House, 1881 (Vol. I),
full title: Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, Preserved
in Her Majesty's Public Record Office, London.
6. Sir James Balfour Paul, ed., "The Scots Peerage," Edinburgh: David
Douglas, 1904-1914 (9 volumes).
7. William Fraser, ed., "The Lennox," Edinburgh, 1874, text of vol.
II:13-15 courtesy EARLY SCOTTISH CHARTERS,
http://www.alphalink.com.au/~kincaid/charters.htm
8. The Rev. John M'Ewen, "The New Statistical Account: Presbytery
of Ayr, Synod of Glasgow and Ayr," as cited, Kirkmichael &
Crosshill, Ayrshire, courtesy W. F Couperthwaite,
http://www.wcouperthwaite.co.uk/kirkm.htm
9. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conversation, 19 November 2005,
re: (1) relationship of Margaret Maxwell to Sir John Montgomery,
and his 1st wife Agnes 'of the Isles', (2) identification of John
Stewart, husband of Fingola, as John Stewart of Dalswinton, (3)
theories re: Ela, wife of Duncan, Earl of Fife, 'nepta' of King
Malcolm IV, and other matters, notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
10. D. E. Easson, ed., "Charters of the Abbey of Coupar Angus,"
Edinburgh: T. and A. Constable, Ltd., for the Scottish History
Society, 1947.
11. G. W. S. Barrow, "Robert Bruce and the Community of the Realm of
Scotland," Edinburgh University Press, 1976 (2nd ed.).
12. D.A.Bullough and R.L.Storey, eds., "The Study of Medieval Record,
Essays in honour of Kathleen Major," 'The Early Charters of the
Family of Kinninmonth of that Ilk', by G. W. S. Barrow,
http://sadko.ncl.ac.uk/~ndjk/Personal/Scotland/Origins/Charters.htm
p. 6 = King William I confirms to Adam, son of Odo the steward, the
grant made to Odo by Gilchrist, the abbot, and the convent of the
culdees of St. Andrews, as in No. 2. Forfar (c. 1194).
13. George Crawfurd, "The History of the Shire of Renfrew," Paisley:
Printed and sold by Alex. Weir, 1782, (originally, Edinburgh :
Printed by James Watson, 1710), [also as cited by Burke; and
Paisley Herald article, F of Barrochan], ' containing a genealogical
history of the royal house of Stewart,..'.
14. William Fraser, "The Red Book of Menteith," Edinburgh: 1880, .pdf
image files provided by Genealogy.com www.genealogy.com,
history and evidences concerning the Earls and Earldom of Mentieth.
15. "Clan Stirling,"
http://www.clanstirling.org/uploads/ragmanrolls.pdf
provides .pdf file of the names of those who swore allegiance
to Edward I of England at Berwick, 1296 (the 'Ragman Rolls').
16. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
http://www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
17. Brian Timms, "St George's Roll," College of Arms, London, MS
Vincent 164 ff 1-21b., http://www.briantimms.com/rolls/
dated c1285. Painted, containing 677 shields., Source: Gerard
J Brault, Rolls of Arms of Edward I, Boydell & Brewer, 1997.
18. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conference re: Ralph de Tony and
Mary (de Brus ?), the Stewarts of Arthurlie, the dispensation of
Robert II of Scots and Elizabeth Mure, Neil Campbell and the
Campbells of Loch Awe, Guy O'Cathan and Angus Og MacDonald,
William de Caldcotes and the Livingstons of Kilsyth, and other
'related' matters, 29 October 2004, notes, library of John P.
Ravilious.
19. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conference re: (1) Keith of
Galston and Galbraith of that Ilk, (2) Willelma de Douglas and
her marriage to Sir William de Galbraith, and other matters, 18
January 2005, notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
20. Andrew B. W. MacEwen, telephone conference re: (1) the daughters
of Uhtred of Galloway, (2) the parentage of Joanna Douglas (wife
of Hugh Gifford of Yester), (3) The O'Neill connection to the Earls
of Carrick, (4) the parentage of Amie MacRuarie, and other matters,
2 May 2005, notes, library of John P. Ravilious.
21. The Origins of the Campbells, "Clan Campbell Society North America,"
http://www.ccsna.org/jsep11.htm
22. Sir Norman Lamont of Knockdow, Bart., F.S.A. (Scot.), "An
Inventory of Lamont Papers, 1231-1897," Presented to the Scottish
Record Society, Edinburgh: J. Skinner & Company, Ltd., 1914.
23. Alastair Campbell of Airds, "A History of Clan Campbell,"
Edinburgh: Polygon [an imprint of Edinburgh University Press Ltd.],
2000, Vol. I: From Origins to Flodden.
* John P. Ravilious
The...@aol.com
Hello All,
In the first post to this thread I provided a pedigree of the Earls
of Carrick down to their ‘daughtering-out’ with the death of Earl Neil
of Carrick in 1256.
Among the issue of Earl Neil, besides the Countess Margaret of
Carrick, was a daughter Effrick, or Aufrica. The name Aufrica
evidently entered the family of the Lords of Galloway rather early,
as Fergus had a daughter Aufrica who m. Olaf ‘Morsel’ Gudrodson, king
of Man and the Isles (d. 1153). Earl Duncan of Carrick, Aufrica’s
brother, was married as a 2nd husband to Aufrica, daughter of Duncan,
earl of Fife (d. 1154) [1]. Earl Duncan and his wife Aufrica of Fife
were the grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick, so his naming a
daughter Aufrica is less than surprising.
The marriage of Aufrica of Carrick and Sir Colin Mor Campbell has
been the subject of debate for some time, receiving no positive
reception from the author of the Scots Peerage article on the Campbells
[2]. The placement of Aufrica of Carrick as a sister of Earl Neil, and
wife of Archibald Campbell, by Sellar and others [3] is due in part
to the need to explain the name Nicolas, or Nicol, as being the same
as Colinus, or Colin (which it is not). As noted by Andrew B. W.
MacEwen, the evidence actually indicates that Aufrica of Carrick was
the wife (possibly a 2nd wife) of Sir Colin Mor Campbell (d. 1296), by
whom she was the mother of Nicol Campbell, Sir Donald Campbell, and the
daughter who m. Angus Mor mac Donald.
One specific piece of evidence that supports this relationship is
the dispensation for the marriage of William, Earl of Ross and Mary,
daughter of Angus Og mac Donald. The dispensation, dated 25 May 1342,
stipulated that they were related in the 3rd and 4th degrees of
consanguinity [4]. This relationship is based on their common descent
from Neil, Earl of Carrick as follows:
Neil, E of Carrick = Isabella
____________________________I_______________
I I
Sir Robert = Marjorie Sir Colin Mor = Aufrica
de Brus I Campbell I
I_____ I
I I
Hugh = Maud de Brus Angus Mor = NN, a daughter
E of Ross I mac Donald I
I I
I I
I Angus Og mac Donald
I______________ I
I I
William of Ross = Mary ‘mac Donald’
An additional reference gives support (if weakly) to this
relationship. I have conjectured that Sir William Cunyngham of
Kilmaurs (d. bef Aug 1399) and his brothers Sir Nigel Cunyngham and
Andrew were descended from Sir Duncan Campbell of Loudoun (son of Sir
Donald Campbell and grandson of Sir Colin Mor and his wife Aufrica of
Carrick). Sir William was recognized by King David II as his kinsman
in 1361/2, when he was created Earl of Carrick in right of his wife
Helen, daughter of Alexander Bruce, Earl of Carrick (k. 1333) [5]. If
the conjectured Campbell-Cunyngham marriage is correct, the
relationship would appear as follows [note: conjectured relationship
denoted _ _ _ _ _ _]:
Neil, E of Carrick = Isabella
____________________________I___________
I I
Sir Robert = Marjorie Sir Colin Mor = Aufrica
de Brus I Campbell I
I _________I
I I
Robert I Sir Donald Andrew de
K of Scots 1306-1329 Campbell Crawford
I I I
I I I
David II Sir Duncan = Susanna
K of Scots 1329-1371 Campbell I Crawford
_ _ _ _ I_________
I I
Hugh de Cunyngham = NN Sir Andrew
I Campbell of Loudoun
__________________I________________
I I I
Sir William Sir Nigel Andrew
de Cunyngham de Cunyngham de Cunyngham
of Kilmaurs of West Barns of Kilfassane
& Ballindalloch
These relationships (esp. the Campbell descents shown) have a wide
ranging impact on descents of a host of individuals far too numerous to
mention, but include Prince William and many list members.
Should anyone having additional relevant documentation, comment or
criticism, that would be welcome.
Cheers,
John *
NOTES
[1] See first post in this thread. Also, Richard Oram, Lordship of
Galloway, pp. 89-90.
[2] SP I:319, sub _Campbell, Duke of Argyll_. In particular,
this account states concerning Archibald or Gillespie Campbell,
father of Sir Colin Mor,
’ His wife, according to Douglas, was Margaret, daughter
of William Somervill, baron of Carnwath; and according to
MSS. belonging to the family, Effrick, daughter of Colin,
Lord of Carrick. There was no Colin of Carrick known to
history, and no corroborative evidence has been found for
either. ‘
[3] See W. David H. Sellar, Bute Pursuivant of Arms,
"The Earliest Campbells - Norman, Briton or Gael?"
courtesy of Clan Campbell Society (NA) at
http://www.ccsna.org/jsep11.htm
[4] dispensation dated at Avignon, 8 Kal. June [25 May] 1342:
' To the bishop of Moray. Mandate to grant a dispensation
to William, earl of Ross and Mary, daughter of the late Angus
de Ile, donsel, to intermarry, they being related in the
fourth and third degrees of kindred. ' [Papal Letters III:85,
cited fol. 168, Regesta Vol. CLV; as cited by Andrew MacEwen;
Munro p. 242, no. B23, cites CPL, iii, 85]
[5] charter as Earl of Carrick, in right of his wife, 1361 or
1362 [Reg. Mag.Sig., fol. 23 - cited at SP IV:227]:
' David, D.G. Rex Scottorum, sciatus nos dedisse concessisse et
hac presenti-carta confirmasse dilicto consanguineo nostro
Willielmo de Cuninghame militi totum comitatum de Carryk.' .
The charter is not dated but was probably written at Aberdeen
on 12 September 1361.
* John P. Ravilious
Doug McDonald
> Thursday, 24 November, 2005
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> In the first post to this thread I provided a pedigree of the Earls
> of Carrick down to their ‘daughtering-out’ with the death of Earl Neil
> of Carrick in 1256.
>
> Among the issue of Earl Neil, besides the Countess Margaret of
> Carrick, was a daughter Effrick, or Aufrica.
....
>
> These relationships (esp. the Campbell descents shown) have a wide
> ranging impact on descents of a host of individuals far too numerous to
> mention, but include Prince William and many list members.
>
Interesting! Yes, I am descended from this Aufirca in many ways,
including of course, if the DNA and my name is to be believed,
her grandson Angus Og.
Also, I should add, that we have some new and interesting DNA
evidence, which, though excruciatingly tentative, will, if
it holds up, distinguish Angus Og from his son John of Islay. This would
be a big deal.
Doug McDonald
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< 1.1.1.1.1b Marjorie of Carrick* (See above)
----------------------------------------
Spouse: Robert de Brus [2nd husband]
Death: bef 4 Apr 1304[11],[1]
Birth: Jul 1243[1]
Father: Robert de Brus (1210-1295)
Mother: Isabel de Clare (1226-<1275)
Marr: 1271[1]
Children: Robert I (1274-1329)
Edward (~1276-1318)
Christian (-ca1356)
Maud (->1323)
Mary
Isabella >>
On this daughter Isabella
"Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan;
Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
states that she mar 25 Sep 1293 to Eric (1268-99) II, King of Norway (from
1280)
and that she died 1358 having given birth to
Ingeborg of /Norway/ 1297- who then mar 1312 Waldemar, Duke of /Finland/
murdered in 1318
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<< Among the issue of Earl Neil, besides the Countess Margaret of
Carrick, was a daughter Effrick, or Aufrica. The name Aufrica evidently entered
the family of the Lords of Galloway rather early, as Fergus had a daughter
Aufrica who m. Olaf ‘Morsel’ Gudrodson, king of Man and the Isles (d. 1153).
Earl Duncan of Carrick, Aufrica’s brother, was married as a 2nd husband to
Aufrica, daughter of Duncan, earl of Fife (d. 1154) [1]. Earl Duncan and his
wife Aufrica of Fife were the grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick, so his
naming a daughter Aufrica is less than surprising. >>
But John also writes below:
<<re: his wife Aufrica:
'Afreka' [Orkneyinga Saga[3]]
she m. 1stly Harald Maddadsson of Orkney, repudiated ca. 1168;
2ndly Gilbert of Carrick[4]
Spouse: Aufrica of Fife
Father: Duncan mac Duff, Earl of Fife (-1154)
Marr: ca 1169[4]>>
Was Aufrica of Fife the wife of Earl Duncan (as item 1 above) ? or was she
the wife of Gilbert of Carrick (as item 2 above)?
Thanks
Will Johnson
The...@aol.com
Dear Will,
Thanks for that catch.
<Earl Duncan of Carrick, Aufrica’s brother, was married
as a 2nd husband to Aufrica, daughter of Duncan, earl
of Fife (d. 1154) [1]. >
For <Duncan>, read <Gilbert>.
Also,
<Earl Duncan and his wife Aufrica of Fife were the
grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick,..>
Read,
<Earl Gilbert and his wife Aufrica of Fife were the
great-grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick,...>
Many thanks, and watch out for that leftover turkey.
Cheers,
John
The...@aol.com
Dear Doug,
A quick (?) question: according to my notes, Angus Og had two issue
with descendants, John/Eoin (lord of the Isles) and a daughter Mary, wife of
William, Earl of Ross (d. 1371).
The DNA study can only be of assistance with the male line descent,
excluding any possible validation/invalidation involving the descent from Mary,
Countess of Ross. There are also (insofar as I am aware) any male line descents
from Alexander, Angus Og's elder brother (or half-brother possibly).
How might the DNA study distinguish between Angus Og and his son John,
or descents from same?
Cheers,
John
> Thursday, 24 November, 2005
>
>
> Hello All,
>
> In the first post to this thread I provided a pedigree of the Earls
> of Carrick down to their ‘daughtering-out’ with the death of Earl Neil
> of Carrick in 1256.
>
> Among the issue of Earl Neil, besides the Countess Margaret of
> Carrick, was a daughter Effrick, or Aufrica.
....
Doug McDonald
> Saturday, 26 November, 2005
>
>
> Dear Will,
>
> Thanks for that catch.
>
> <Earl Duncan of Carrick, Aufrica’s brother, was married
> as a 2nd husband to Aufrica, daughter of Duncan, earl
> of Fife (d. 1154) [1]. >
>
> For <Duncan>, read <Gilbert>.
>
> Also,
>
> <Earl Duncan and his wife Aufrica of Fife were the
> grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick,..>
>
> Read,
>
> <Earl Gilbert and his wife Aufrica of Fife were the
> great-grandparents of Earl Neil of Carrick,...>
>
> Many thanks, and watch out for that leftover turkey.
>
> Cheers,
>
> John
I'm still confused. Which "Earl Gilbert of Carrick, Aufrica’s brother"?
A complete single tree showing all of the people in your
fist and second original posts micg clarify things.
Doug McDonald
Doug McDonald
> Saturday, 26 November, 2005
>
>
> Dear Doug,
>
> A quick (?) question: according to my notes, Angus Og had two issue
> with descendants, John/Eoin (lord of the Isles) and a daughter Mary, wife of
> William, Earl of Ross (d. 1371).
>
> The DNA study can only be of assistance with the male line descent,
> excluding any possible validation/invalidation involving the descent from Mary,
> Countess of Ross. There are also (insofar as I am aware) any male line descents
> from Alexander, Angus Og's elder brother (or half-brother possibly).
>
> How might the DNA study distinguish between Angus Og and his son John,
> or descents from same?
>
I sent a very long post to John privately.
The short answer to his question is found in my
original post "exceedingly tentatively". I will add
as a tidbit that the long answer includes "Laphroig
Scotch Whiskey".
Doug Mcdonald
WJho...@aol.com
mcdonald@SnPoAM_scs.uiuc.edu writes:
<< I'm still confused. Which "Earl Gilbert of Carrick, Aufrica’s brother"?
A complete single tree showing all of the people in your
fist and second original posts micg clarify things. >>
Doug, and others
Fergus, Lord of Galloway who d 1161 had a son Gilbert (Gilbride) Lord of
Galloway 1161-85
This Gilbert died 1 Jan 1184/5 (www.wikipedia.org) and had married Aufrica of
Fife daughter of Duncan, 2nd Earl of Fife (d 1154). This is who John is
referring to.
Will Johnson
The...@aol.com
Dear Doug, Will, et al.,
Following are two charts (not entirely comprehensive) reflecting
the descents of (1) the Lords of Galloway and (2) the Earls of
Carrick from Fergus, Lord of Galloway (d. 1161).
I hope this is useful. Should you have any questions re: the
charts or specific individuals shown (or not shown), please
advise.
Cheers,
John
The Lords of Galloway
Fergus = NN (theorized kinswoman Duncan
L of Galloway I of Henry II of England) E of Fife
d. 1161 I I____
________________I___________________ I
I I I I
Uhtred = Gunnhild Aufrica Gilbert = (1) NN = (2) Aufrica
L of I of = Olaf L of I I of
Galloway I Allerdale ‘Morsel’ Galloway I I Fife
k. 1174 I of Man V V
I
________I___________________________________________________
I I I I
Roland = Elena Fergus Eve Dervorguilla
L of I de fl 1212 = (1) Walter = Laurence
Galloway I Morville I de Berkeley de Abernethy
d. 1200 I I (2) Robert I
I I de Quincy I
________I________________________ I______________ I
I I I I I V
Alan Thomas Dervorguilla NN V
L of E of = Nicholas = Walter
Galloway Athol de Stuteville Bisset
I (dju) I of Aboyne
I I
V V
The Earls of Carrick
Fergus = NN (theorized kinswoman Duncan
L of Galloway I of Henry II of England) E of Fife
d. 1161 I I____
________________I___________________ I
I I I I
Uhtred = Gunnhild Aufrica Gilbert = (1) NN = (2) Aufrica
L of I of = Olaf L of I I of
Galloway I Allerdale ‘Morsel’ Galloway I I Fife
k. 1174 I of Man d. 1185 I I
V _______________I I
I I
Malcolm Duncan
fl. 1174 E of Carrick
(illegitimate ? d. 1250
prob. d.v.p.) = Avelina
I
I
Nicol
(d.v.p.
bef 1250)
I
I
Isabella = Neil
I E of
I Carrick
I d. 1256
_______________________________________________I____________
I I I I
Marjorie Aufrica NN NN
Countess of Carrick = Sir Colin Mor
= (1) Adam de Campbell
I Kilconquhar I
I = (2) Robert de V
I I Brus
I I________________________________________________________
I I I I I IIIII
Isabella Robert Edward Neil Christian <siblings>
de _The_ I I
Kilconquhar Bruce V V
= Sir Thomas K of
Randolph Scots
I I
V V
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
> Isabella >>
>
> On this daughter Isabella
> "Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe", Jiri Louda and Michael Maclagan;
> Clarkson N Potter, New York 1981
> states that she mar 25 Sep 1293 to Eric (1268-99) II, King of Norway
> and that she died 1358 having given birth to
> Ingeborg of /Norway/ 1297- who then mar 1312 Waldemar, Duke of /Finland/
> murdered in 1318
Alison Weir in "Britain's Royal Families" (admittedly not the greatest
reference source, but then Louda & Maclagan is entirely unreferenced
and contains a number of errors too) refers to this marriage as "before
25 September 1293".
MA-R
Stewart Baldwin
[much snipping]
> The Lords of Galloway
>
>
> Fergus = NN (theorized kinswoman Duncan
> L of Galloway I of Henry II of England) E of Fife
> d. 1161 I I____
> ________________I___________________ I
> I I I I
The word "theorized" can be removed here. As has been discussed here
in the past, there are several good independent sources referring to
various descendants of Fergus as relatives of Henry II or other
English kings (one of which specifies the relationship as coming
through Henry's mother), leaving no reasonable doubt that either
Fergus or his wife was related to Henry II. Given the general
unlikelihood of a relationship between Fergus and Henry, a kinship
between Fergus's unknown wife and Henry II can be regarded as pretty
solid. It is the exact nature of that kinship where the "theorizing"
comes in. The simplest and most probable theory is that "NN" was an
illegitimate daughter of Henry I, but other alternatives, although
somewhat unlikely, are not ruled out by the known evidence.
Stewart Baldwin
John P. Ravilious
This still sounds like a theory to me. As you wrote, there is "no
reasonable doubt that either Fergus or his wife was related to Henry
II." While I agree it is most likely that Fergus' wife is the source
of the relationship, this has yet to be proved.
Cheers,
John
wils...@paradise.net
source: JF Curwen " The Ancient House of Curwen"
Brendan Wilson
To Reply: remove [.] from around the dot. Stops Spam
Researching: Lowther, Westmoreland. Clifford, Cumberland /Yorkshire. Brennan, Kilhile, Ballyhack Wexford. Fitzgibbon, Kingsland French Park Rosscommon,Ireland. Prendergast & Donohue, Cappoquin Lismore, Waterford. Starr & Turner, Romford Essex,England.
Peters, Hamburg & Ballarat Victoria.Lund, Hamburg.Lowther & McCormack,Dublin.
Todd A. Farmerie
> Elizabeth, Illeg. dau of Henry I of England
>
> source: JF Curwen " The Ancient House of Curwen"
>
>
Unfortunately, that is just someone's guess.
taf
Jwc...@aol.com
As John observed
and Douglas agreed there are many ways in which Henry II, King of England
could be a near relative of the Lords of Galloway. Malcolm III, King of Scots had
two sons by Ingeborg namely Duncan II d 1094 and Donald d 1085, his children
by Margaret Aetheling were Ethelred, 1st Earl of Fife, Edward d Jedburgh
1093, Edmund who became king with his uncle Donald in 1094 and died as a monk in
England, Edgar, King of Scots died 1107 unmarried, Alexander I, King of Scots
married Sibyl, natural daughter of King Henry I of England had a natural son
Malcolm who attempted to take the throne. David I, King of Scots d 1153 and two
daughter Edith / Maud , wife of King Henry I of England and Mary wife of
Count Eustace III of Boulogne in addition Donald VI Bane, King of Scots 1093-
1094 and again with his nephew Edmund 1094-1097 following his assassination of
his eldest nephew King Duncan II in 1094. His great grandson William Comyn was a
3rd cousin to Henry II. see S P 1:1
Sincerely,
James W Cummings
Dixmont, Maine USA
Stewart Baldwin
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>If you have no direct evidence as to the exact nature of Fergus' wife's
>kinship to the English kings, you are clearly pressing the point to say
>that the "simplest and most probable theory" is that Fergus' wife was
>an illegitimate daughter of Henry I. The fact is we don't know how the
>two families were related. Anything beyond that statement is idle
>speculation on your part. It has nothing to do with probabilities.
As the closest possible relationship, it is also the simplest. The
Scottish scenario requires any such relationship to be at least one
generation more removed than the scenario making Fergus's wife a
daughter of Henry I.
>As I've indicated in an earlier post, I believe that the wife of Fergus
>of Galloway was likely the sister of William Fitz Duncan, grandson of
>Malcolm Canmore, King of Scotland. I'm basing this on an association
>that I've noted in the records between Fergus of Galloway and William
>Fitz Duncan. As you're well aware, William Fitz Duncan was near
>related to all of the English kings from King Henry II forward. As
>such, this theory can also be considered a "simple" explanation as to
>how the Galloway family was related to the English royal family.
What is the evidence for this "association" between Fergus and William
Fitz Duncan?
Stewart Baldwin
Douglas Richardson
<
< As the closest possible relationship, it is also the simplest. The
< Scottish scenario requires any such relationship to be at least one
< generation more removed than the scenario making Fergus's wife a
< daughter of Henry I.
< Stewart Baldwin
My research indicates that the Kings of England were quite capable of
acknowledging remote kinships just as easily as they were closer ones.
Provided the kinship was within the fifth degree on at least one side,
I think any relationship is possible through any part of the English
king's British ancestry. Since Fergus lived in Galloway, it seems more
likely to me for his presumed wife to have derived her presumed kinship
to the English kings by way of a common descent from the Scottish royal
house, rather than through the house of the English kings themselves.
Given these facts, "one generation closer" means nothing at all if the
parties involved were all of royal blood and they were related within
the fifth degree on at least one side. If a connection through the
Scottish royal house meets that criteria, it must be considered as a
viable option. Whatever, this matter needs further research before any
firm conclusions can be drawn.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Stewart Baldwin
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
[snip]
[Let me repeat the part of my posting having the question which was
evidently overlooked in the previous reply.]
Douglas Richardson
clarity.
My research indicates that the Kings of England were quite capable of
acknowledging remote kinships just as easily as they were closer ones.
Provided the kinship was within the fifth degree on at least one side,
I think ANY relationship is possible through ANY part of the English
king's British ancestry. Since Fergus lived in Galloway, it seems more
likely to me for his presumed wife to have derived her presumed kinship
to the English kings by way of a common descent from the Scottish royal
house, rather than through the house of the English kings themselves.
Given these facts, "one generation closer" means nothing at all if the
parties involved were all of royal blood and they were related within
the fifth degree on at least one side. If a connection through the
Scottish royal house meets that criteria, it MUST be considered as a
Stewart Baldwin
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>Let me repeat my previous reply.
[snip]
Repeating your previous reply does not answer the question which you
evaded, which asked you for evidence of your statement that there was
an "association" between Fergus of Galloway and William Fitz Duncan
that would support a genealogical link between Fergus and the Scottish
royal house. Given that you appear to be deliberately sidestepping
the question, I will simply assume for the time being that you are
unable or unwilling (for whatever reason) to support the given
statement with evidence. If that is an incorrect assumption on my
part, it will be easily dispelled by posting the alleged evidence.
Stewart Baldwin
Douglas Richardson
At the present time, I know of no evidence to suggest that King Henry I
of England had an "extra" daughter who married Fergus, lord of
Galloway. As such, I suggest you assemble a family tree displaying all
possible kinships within the fifth degree that do not involve a descent
from King Henry I of England.
The fifth degree would be to the last king who acknowledged kinship to
the Galloway family. I believe that is King John.
Stewart Baldwin
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>Dear Stewart ~
>
>At the present time, ...
[snip]
... you are still deliberately sidestepping the request that you
provide evidence for your claim that there was an "association"
between Fergus of Galloway and William Fitz Duncan.
Stewart Baldwin
Douglas Richardson
An open mind and a collegial spirit are the best approach to solving
such a complex problem as the presumed connection between the Galloway
family and the English royal family. You're certainly doing well to
consider the possibility that the wife of Fergus of Galloway might be
an illegitimate daughter of King Henry I of England. But, there are
other possible routes of kinship, and they must also be considered.
"One generation closer" means nothing to kings who were capable of
addressing nobles of very remote kinship as their cousin. Provided the
kinship fell within the fifth degree on at least one side to the last
king who acknowledged the kinship, any solution is possible. Usually
the short side of kinship was on the king's side.
If you seriously want to pursue this further, perhaps you can tell us
the various possible kinships and why you think they merit our
attention. In this case, as I recall, the last English king who
acknowledged kinship to members of the Galloway family was King John.
If so, you would need to look for anything within the fifth degree to
King John. Since King John's mother and paternal grandfather were
French, you can presumably rule out those sections of the king's
ancestry. That basically leaves the English royal family and the
Scottish royal family who are in King John's immediate ancestry. And,
since Fergus' overlord was the Scottish king, I would think that it
would be much more likely that his wife was a member of the Scottish
royal family.
I hope this information has helped you.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Le Bateman
Maldred?
Le
Stewart Baldwin
<royala...@msn.com> wrote:
>If you seriously want to pursue this further, ...
[snip]
[yawn]
Doug, If you wish to bait me into following a red herring, you are
going to have to come up with something less transparent than this.
Given your repeated sidestepping of the simple request that you
provide evidence to back up your statement that there was an
"association" between Fergus of Galloway and William Fitz Duncan that
is somehow relevant, I am perfectly satisfied to assume, in the
absence of evidence to the contrary, that you are unable to back up
your statement with any sound evidence.
[End of my participation in this thread, unless Doug, contrary to all
expectations, actually comes up with evidence to back up his claim.]
Stewart Baldwin
Jwc...@aol.com
Concerning the association of Fergus, Lord of Galloway
with William Fitz Duncan, I have seen a couple of things that indicated that
Fergus of Galloway may have been one of the Earls who rose againest Malcolm IV,
King of Scots when William`s son who styled himself Donald mac William
attempted to claim the throne in 1160. The Website The Mackay family and it`s
connections in the Maritimes by Michael Mackay has the following in a section on the
Royal House of Moray. Ruadri, Mormaer of Moray had three sons Findlaech,
Mormaer of Moray d 1020 who was the father of Macbeth, King of Scots d 1057, ygr
bro of Findlaech;Maelbrigte was father of Malcolm, Mormaer of Moray d 1029 and
Gillacomgain d 1032 who married Gruoch nighean Boedhe mac Kenneth III, King
of Scots, a third son of Ruadri was Donald. Gillacomgain`s widow Gruoch had a
son Lulach who was brought up by her 2nd husband, her 1st husband`s cousin
Macbeth. Lulach d 1058 was crowned King of Scots after Macbeth`s death in battle
with the forces of King Malcolm III and was killed by the same king as his
stepfather leaving a son Maelnechtan , Mormaer of Moray from 1058-1078 who was
captured and sent to a monastary where He died in 1085 and a daughter who who
married one Aedh (rather than Ethelred, Earl of Fife as I indicated in previous
posts. Aedh is thought to be a great grandson of Donald mac Ruadri and was the
first to use the title Earl of Moray, witnessing charters of David I, which
places his death after 1124. He had sons Angus, Earl of Moray d 1130 in a
rebellion againest David I and Malcolm, known as Malcolm mac Heth , Earl of Moray
1130- 1134. He married a sister of Somerled and was betrayed by his own men and
sent to Roxburgh Castle where He was imprisoned until 1157. In the meantime
Aedh`s daughter Gruoch of Moray was married to William Fitz Duncan, the son of
King Duncan II of the Scots who was granted the title of Earl of Moray. He
subsequently married Cecily de Romilly. by Gruoch He was the father of Donald mac
William who with his uncle Malcolm mac Heth revolted as before mentioned in
1160.