Henry I of Brabant
jim...@aol.com
Shows a second marriage for Henry I Duke of Brabant.
1st?? Maud of Boulogne and Alsace?in 1179.
2nd? Marie, Princess of France?22 Apr 1213 at Soissons (there is no documentation on this second marraige listing.)
Marie was the daughter of King Phillip II of France.
Has anyone?encountered documentaion of this second marriage?
Regards,
Jim Malone
John P. Ravilious
The connection is valid, although the title 'Princess' was likely
awarded by someone in the 20th century or later.
Mary/Marie was the illegitimate daughter of Philip II ("Philippe
Auguste"), King of France by Agnes of Meran. Her full brother was
Philippe 'Hurepel'. Secondary and other references concerning the
foregoing which you may wish to view:
1. Europaische Stammtafeln I Band I.2, Tafel 237 (re Dukes of
Brabant)
2. Genealogics [ID for Mary/Marie is #I00012284]
http://www.genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00012284&tree=LEO
Cheers,
John
On Mar 29, 8:02 pm, jim...@aol.com wrote:
> The following website:?http://nygaard,howards.net/files/4/4679.htm
Peter Stewart
<jim...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1288.12068354...@rootsweb.com...
This marriage and the date & place for it are evidenced in an act of
Philippe II dated, according to a contemporary copy, at Soissons April
1212 - this is the year as transcribed into one of the king's registers (the
original document is lost), but we know that it was April 1213 from the
corresponding charter of Henri himself, referring to matters afoot in 1213,
and from the fact that Marie's first husband Philippe, margrave of Namur,
did not die until October 1212.
Anyway, the text makes clear that King Philippe II's daughter Marie was to
marry Henri on the day after the Sunday following Easter, i.e. on Monday 22
April 1213, when the court was still at Soissons - "Philippus Dei gratia
Francorum rex omnibus ad quos littere presentes pervenerint salutem.
Novertis quod nos dilecto et fideli nostro Henrico duci Lotharingie
promisimus bona fide et in animam nostram jurari fecimus quod, in crastino
dominice instantis qua cantabitur Quasi modo, Mariam filiam nostram cum
dotalicio suo eidem dabimus in uxorem...".
There are also narrative sources indicating that the marriage took place as
promised, e.g. Alberic of Troisfontaines who described Henri as son-in-law
of the French king from not long before Bouvines, in July 1214 - "Dux autem
Brabantie Henricus...gener erat regis et filiam eius nuper duxerat in
uxorem".
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message
news:wDBHj.3936$n8....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
<snip>
> Anyway, the text makes clear that King Philippe II's daughter Marie was to
> marry Henri on the day after the Sunday following Easter, i.e. on Monday
> 22 April 1213, when the court was still at Soissons
Actually, the last point is not definite as far as I know - the court moved
on from Soissons to Melun at some point between Easter (14 April) and the
end of the same month in 1213, so the marriage could have been solemnised at
either place, I suppose, unless there is some further evidence that I have
missed.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
"John P. Ravilious" <the...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:0a50f27f-ad30-4d63...@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> Dear Jim,
>
> The connection is valid, although the title 'Princess' was likely
> awarded by someone in the 20th century or later.
>
> Mary/Marie was the illegitimate daughter of Philip II ("Philippe
> Auguste"), King of France by Agnes of Meran. Her full brother was
> Philippe 'Hurepel'.
These two were not "illegitimate" in the usual sense: their parents were
regarded - by themselves, the court and most of France - as married when
both children were born. However, this marriage in June 1196 was held to be
canonically bigamous on King Philippe's part, since the Church did not
accept his repudiation of Ingeborg of Denmark a few months after he had
married her in August 1193. Philippe formally repudiated his marriage to
Agnes of Meran in September 1200, but even this made little if any
difference to the status of their children - he only accepted Ingeborg again
in 1213, long after Agnes had died. Henri of Brabant was not likely to
accept, or for that matter to be offered, an acknowledged royal by-blow as
his duchess.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
Underlining this point - Marie, daughter of Philippe and Agnes of Meran, was
first betrothed to Arthur, duke of Brittany, that would have been
inconceivable if she was considered illegitimate.
Alberic of Troisfontaine's described Marie as Arthur's widow at the time of
her marriage to Philippe of Flanders, margrave of Namur, in 1206 ("comes
Namurcensis fuit captus et regi Francie presentatus...et ipse filiam ipsius
regis Mariam, iuvenis Arturi relictam, duxit in uxorem"). Only a legitimate
princess would have been thought suitable as a bride for any of the three to
whom she was betrothed or married.
Peter Stewart
M.Sjostrom
dear Peter,
do you happen to have contemporary evidence of Marie
being called 'princess' in her day, early 1200s?
I am most curious, since I have gotten a belief that
the term prince was applied to substantial petty
rulers (prince of Wales, prince and steward of
Scotland, prince of Tarent, lord of Orange, prince of
Antioch, prince of Galilee, as well as the most high
and puissant margraves, dukes and so forth as princes)
in Middle Ages, whereas at most, only in latest stages
of medieval era (1500s?), or only in modern centuries,
it gotten a style for cadets of royal families.
---
btw, totally another point,
Leo referred to parts of the biography on display at
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000170&tree=LEO
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Peter Stewart
"M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:mailman.1305.12068574...@rootsweb.com...
>
> dear Peter,
>
> do you happen to have contemporary evidence of Marie
> being called 'princess' in her day, early 1200s?
No, I wasn't using "princess" as a formal title but just a convenient term
for her status as a legitimate member of the royal family - prince/princess
were not specifically a royal rank in France at any time, including now, and
using this in the sense of a personal style would have been meaningless at
that time for anyone who was not of premier baronial (i.e. comtorial, not
necessarily comital) rank as well as active in the feudal hierarchy.
Peter Stewart
Peter Stewart
<snip>
> Leo referred to parts of the biography on display at
> http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00000170&tree=LEO
Can someone explain the evidence for identifying Ingeborg's maternal
grandmother as "Richiza/Swentoslawa of Poland, 1116-1155"?
The lineage given from Jaroslav I of Kiev down to Boleslaw III of Poland
appears correct. However, I can't see how the latter's daughter
Ryksa/Richiza could be the woman who married Volodar of Polotsk and became
the mother of Ingeborg's mother Sofie.
Volodar (baptised Vladimir), Sofie's father, was reportedly living in 1167,
whereas the second husband of Bolesalw III's daughter Ryksa was a different
Vladimir, according to Dworzaczek's _Genealogia_, to whom she was married by
18 May 1136 and who died after 1139 but before her third marriage ca
1142/43.
What is the evidence that Volodar/Vladimir of Polotsk was ever the husband
of Ryksa of Poland?
Peter Stewart
M.Sjostrom
Rikissa of Poland is not a necessary nor a sufficient
ancestor for Ingeborg to descend in 6th generation
from Jaroslav of Kiev and Ingegerd of Sweden, as the
PATERNAL grandmother of Ingeborg of Denmark is that
requisite link. Her name in Scandinavia was Ingeborg
too, and she was daughter of Mstislav of Kiev and
Kristina Ingesdotter of Sweden.
However, about Rikissa (Regitze, Richeza, Ryksa),
near-contemporary and fairly reliable material, in
near-contemporary sagas, and chronicles, say that
Valdemar I of Denmark (Valdemar), making alliance with
Knud V of Denmark (Knud Magnuson), married the
latter's half-sister, Sofia, who was Knud V's uterine
sister.
(A full sister would not have been possible as of
consanguinity, because Knud's paternal line was close
cousins with Valdemar's line)
Sofia became known as the evil queen Sofia of Denmark
in folk tradition, mentioned a couple of times in
contemporary chronicles. Her one daughter (Ingeborg of
France's sister) got maternal grandmother's name,
became queen-consort of Sweden, and passed on the name
Rikissa to further generations in Sweden.
Knud V's and Sofia's shared mother was Rikissa of
Poland, a Slavic royal/princely daughter who first
married Magnus (Mogens) the Strong, a scion of both
Skjoldung and Stenkil dynasties, who claimed both
Swedish and Danish thrones, and whose doings were
fairly well documented.
Then Rikissa married a Russian (Belarusian?)
princeling - whose ancestry is not easily identifiable
(at least, not with certainty), but with whom she
certainly had Sofia.
Last, Rikissa married Sverker I of Sweden and got a
son, Burisleiv Sverkerson, who claimed Swedish throne
later.
Rikissa's own parentage is, surfatially, a muddle in
chronicles, but with all sources and sound reasoning,
gets identified to be Boleslas III of Poland (from
something like 'Werginceslaus, ruler of the Polish')
and presumably his known wife.
This is not so badly outlayed in Medieval Lands
collection in the net, FMG pages. Take a look at royal
dynasties of Sweden and Denmark, both.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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M.Sjostrom
to further clarify (or muddlify) my thoughts;
the chief reason of identifying Sofie as daughter of
Rikissa, mother of Knud Magnuson, is the alliance
between Danish claimants Knud, and his paternal second
cousin Valdemar Knudsen; allied against Svend V of
Denmark (Svend Eriksen); sealed by the marriage
between Valdemar and Sofie.
Sofie's father's identity in Russia is immaterial to
that.
It's sufficient that she just had the daughter Sofia.
Some writer(s) have thought that Rikissa
Burisleivsdotter took divorce from her second,
Belarusian, husband - in order to be in time in early
1140s to marry her third hubby, a marriage which is
regarded as given fact.
An alternative, mentioned by the Polish author you
cited, is that it's a different guy anyway, and no
longer living.
Even the marriage between Rikissa and Sverker I, in
early 1140s, is connected to Scandinavian struggles,
as Rikissa was gaining support from Sverker who had
until that established his power in Sweden, to her
young but growing son Knud, who had his rights to
Denmark (and to Sweden). Sverker in turn was further
gaining foothold in Westrogothia, place where Knud
seemingly had inherited domains.
For example the name Burisleiv which Rikissa brought
to son of her third marriage, and the necessity of her
being daughter of the chronologically fitting Polish
ruler, indicate the culpability of Boleslas III in
siring that Rikissa.
I really do not know roo well the alternatives in
genealogy of Polish high dukes of the era. But Rikissa
Burislevsdotter needed to be physically developed and
mature enough until the documented death of her first
hubby in 1334, to get pregnant with Knud Magnuson.
Were Rikissa born of Salome Berg-S, she need to be
among eldest kids of hers, in Salome-Boleslas marriage
of c.1114
I do not know whether other circumstances permit
Rikissa to born of Boleslas III's first wife.
Rikissa certainly cannot have been daughter of
Vladislas the Exile, of Silesia, high duke of the
Polish, eldest son of Boleslas III, because then,
chronologically, Knud Magnuson cannot have ever been
born...
The baptismal name Rikissa supports membership in the
Piast lineage, that Lorrainese name not being
indigeneously Polish, but having been imported a
century earlier to family by Richeza of Lorraine,
mother of Casimir 'Carol' of Poland. An eponymic
Richeza was a saint of Lorraine.
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Peter Stewart
> dear Peter,
>
> Rikissa of Poland is not a necessary nor a sufficient
> ancestor for Ingeborg to descend in 6th generation
> from Jaroslav of Kiev and Ingegerd of Sweden, as the
> PATERNAL grandmother of Ingeborg of Denmark is that
> requisite link. Her name in Scandinavia was Ingeborg
> too, and she was daughter of Mstislav of Kiev and
> Kristina Ingesdotter of Sweden.
Yes, this link is one degree more distant on each side than the alleged one
to Isabella of Hainaut that was initially put forward for Philippe.
In that case Dworzaczek identifed the second husband wrongly - can you
please cite the source/s that this correction relies on?
> Last, Rikissa married Sverker I of Sweden and got a
> son, Burisleiv Sverkerson, who claimed Swedish throne
> later.
>
> Rikissa's own parentage is, surfatially, a muddle in
> chronicles, but with all sources and sound reasoning,
> gets identified to be Boleslas III of Poland (from
> something like 'Werginceslaus, ruler of the Polish')
> and presumably his known wife.
>
> This is not so badly outlayed in Medieval Lands
> collection in the net, FMG pages. Take a look at royal
> dynasties of Sweden and Denmark, both.
Well, the only source I can see given in Medieval Lands for this connection
is Alberic of Troisfontaines - I would certainly not rely on him to find his
way out of a paper bag with a leading French family of his own time, much
less with a Polish princess marrying in Scandinavia and Russia over a
century beforehand. Alberic tried to apply critical reasoning to genealogy
where he had immediate sources in front of him, and yet found original ways
to go wrong that amount to a minor genius for error.
Peter Stewart
M.Sjostrom
the marriage between Sofie Valadarsdatter and Valdemar
Knudsen, as well as their parentages, is nicely
attested in Saxo grammaticus - see
http://www2.kb.dk/elib/lit//dan/saxo/lat/or.dsr/14/14/index.htm
Much of the things I pointed out, are also in
Knytlinga saga. Which seemingly was written using info
& materials provided by king Valdemar II of Denmark
and his aides. Valdemar II was son of Sofie and
Valdemar I.
Some snippet points, as well as some supporting
accounts, are in some other Icelandic sagas, written
fifty ears or so, and/or a century, later.
---
May I ask WHO actually was the Vladimir - who were his
parents and further roots -
whom that Polish author mentions, as
- a different Vladimir, according to Dworzaczek's
_Genealogia_, to whom she was married by 18 May 1136
and who died after 1139 but before her third marriage
ca 1142/43.
Admittedly, Rurikids and other Russian princelings are
a muddle, with all that abundance of princelings
floating around.
>From ES material (conveniently in M.Marek's page
http://genealogy.euweb.cz/russia/rurik8.html
and from Cawley's
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/RUSSIA,%20Rurik.htm
I found a Vladimir (d aft 1139), grandson (via eldest
son, the patron saint of Pskov/Pihkov) of the
much-talked high king Mstislav I of Kiev and Kristina
Ingesdotter of Sweden.
If that Vladimir was Rikissa's second husband and
Sofie's father, then, things were kept yet much
tighter in same extended family;
but, there are obvious problems then too.
The name variant Valadar (which Knytlinga saga does
use of Sofie's father), appears nowhere as to THIS
Vladimir, whereas Belarusians are plausible to have
called one of theirs as Volodar (such variant was
present there). Knytlinga saga calls Sofie's father as
king in 'Polani lands', which could rather refer to
Belarus than Novgorod or Kiev.
THIS Vladimir, of Monomakh branch, has no particular
attestation as to Belarusian regions, while his family
had lots to do with Novgorod.
Magnus (Mogens) Nielson, Rikissa's first husband, had
in 1131 had duke Knud Lavard killed (father of the
posthumous Valdemar I, husband of Ingeborg, who in
turn was daughter of Mstislav).
Would Ingeborg's nephew in Russia really have married
the widow Rikissa, widow of his uncle-in-law's killer?
(other than political reasons, to keep her
neutralized...)
THIS Vladimir's sister is mentioned as having married
(c1137) Rikissa's brother (or other near relative),
Boleslas of Kujavia-Masovia. They really kept things
in one extended family!
Valdemar I of Denmark, Sofie's attested husband, was a
first cousin of THAT Vladimir. Priests, catholic and
orthodox, would not have overlooked such thing, such a
close consanguinity, when the well-attested marriage
between Sofie and Valdemar Knudsen was agreed in 1154
and consummated in 1157.
I think that THIS Vladimir most likely was not Sofie's
father. A better candidate for fatherhood is needed,
if Volodar Glebovich of Minsk, Belarusian kinglet, is
wanted to get supplanted...
M.Sjostrom
....but, there are obvious problems then too.
forgot to mention that:
because the marriage of THAT Vladimir's father appears
to be datable to c1123,
it is less than credible that a son of that marriage
would marry a lady who gets widowed in 1134, has a
daughter who starts to bear children since 1157, and
anyway is adult enough in c1140 to have sired the
critically important daughter Sofie.
Most certainly, it is unlikely that such son would not
be put to marry a widow in 1136, and be a father
before 1140.
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M.Sjostrom
who was mother of Rikissa of Poland?
The much-talked Rikissa was daughter of "Burisleiv,
Wendic king" and bore baptismal name recently inherent
in Piast dynasty, but in no other West Slavic princely
hopuse of that era.
1 Judith / Maria / Sofia, widow of king Salomon of
Hungary, and daughter of Henry III, Holy Roman
Emperor, by Agnes of Poitou-Aquitaine,
was since c1089 the second wife of Vladislas I
(Herman) of Poland. She was born c1054 and dioed in
around her forties, between 1092 and 1096.
Judith (or whatever her name was) is too old for being
mother of a lady who married firstly before 1134,
secondly around 1140, and thirdly around 1143, bearing
children to all husbands. Paricularly the children
born in (however early) 1140s, need to have a mother
born practically no earlier than 1100, and preferably
around 1105-1115.
4 Vladislas II of the Piasts, ruler of Silesia and
for a while presiding ruler in Poland, nicknamed the
Exile, and his wife Agnes of Austria, are simply too
young to be Rikissa's parents. Firstly, neither of
them was born before 1105 themselves. secondly, they
startted to have kids in late 1120s, a time when
Rikissa already needs to start to marry, her first
attested hubby being one who was killed in 1134.
3 Salome of Berg-S (the usual suspect for Rikissa's
birthing), second wife of Boleslas III, was herself
born (with latitude) around 1100, and her marriage
took place in c 1115 (not much earlier).
This mother makes the chronology tight.
Particularly if Knud Mogensen (/Knut Magnuson, king
Canute V) were born in c1125, as occasionally written
in places, his maternal grandmother cannot be a woman
who had his mother in 1115 at earliest.
But anyway, a daughter born among first kids, say in
1116, married and bearing son (well) before 1134, is
not very comfortable.
The baptismal name Richeza was present also in
Salome's own family, for example her one sister.
- Salome's motherhood would make Richeza's grandson,
Valdemar II of Denmark, as a fourth-degree kinsman of
Margaret (Dagmar Otakersdatter) of Bohemia, his first
wedded wife.
2 Svislava Svjatopolkovna of Kiev, of the Turaw-Pinsk
branch of Rurikids, was first wife of Boleslas III
(the usual suspect for fatherhood of Rikissa), and
apparent attested mother of the eldest son, Vladislas
II (above), the one of Silesia (who was born in around
1105).
Svislava's marriage took place in c1102, and she
survived up to around 1110. Looks like she did not die
before 1109 at least.
For chronology, her motherhood would make the most
comfortable flow of timely events. Bore that daughter
in around 1107. Richeza was a name (hallowed
foremother) in her hubby's roots anyway.
The daughter gets married c 1125, has son, gets widow
in 1134, new hubby in Russia (remote kinsman of
Svislava), divorces, back to Sweden, and in her
thirties has yet one son with last husband, Sverker.
- Svislava, with high likelihood, however makes
Richeza a second cousin to that Volodar Glebovich of
Minsk (if Volodar's mom were that Turaw lady and not
someone other), whom she is thought to have married
secondly.
(However, the other Vladimir, THAT Vladimir, is not
much better in terms of avoiding consanguinity;
besides, second cousinships were overlooked often in
the east...)
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M.Sjostrom
____________________________________________________________________________________
t...@clearwire.net
> who was mother of Rikissa of Poland?
> 4 Vladislas II of the Piasts, ruler of Silesia and
> for a while presiding ruler in Poland, nicknamed the
> Exile, and his wife Agnes of Austria, are simply too
> young to be Rikissa's parents. Firstly, neither of
> them was born before 1105 themselves. secondly, they
> startted to have kids in late 1120s, a time when
> Rikissa already needs to start to marry, her first
> attested hubby being one who was killed in 1134.
Not that this necessarily excludes a relationship, but Vladislas did
have a daughter of this name. She became, by successive marriages,
queen of Castile and Countess of Provence, then of Toulouse.
taf
M.Sjostrom
who was mother of Rikissa of Poland?
The much-talked Rikissa was daughter of "Burisleiv,
Wendic king" and bore baptismal name recently inherent
in Piast dynasty, but in no other West Slavic princely
hopuse of that era.
1 Judith / Maria / Sofia, widow of king Salomon of
Hungary, and daughter of Henry III, Holy Roman
Emperor, by Agnes of Poitou-Aquitaine,
was since c1089 the second wife of Vladislas I
(Herman) of Poland. She was born c1054 and dioed in
around her forties, between 1092 and 1096.
Judith (or whatever her name was) is too old for being
mother of a lady who married firstly before 1134,
secondly around 1140, and thirdly around 1143, bearing
children to all husbands. Paricularly the children
born in (however early) 1140s, need to have a mother
born practically no earlier than 1100, and preferably
around 1105-1115.
4 Vladislas II of the Piasts, ruler of Silesia and
for a while presiding ruler in Poland, nicknamed the
Exile, and his wife Agnes of Austria, are simply too
young to be Rikissa's parents. Firstly, neither of
them was born before 1105 themselves. secondly, they
startted to have kids in late 1120s, a time when
Rikissa already needs to start to marry, her first
attested hubby being one who was killed in 1134.
3 Salome of Berg-S (the usual suspect for Rikissa's
____________________________________________________________________________________
Peter Stewart
>
> the marriage between Sofie Valadarsdatter and Valdemar
> Knudsen, as well as their parentages, is nicely
> attested in Saxo grammaticus - see
> http://www2.kb.dk/elib/lit//dan/saxo/lat/or.dsr/14/14/index.htm
>
> Much of the things I pointed out, are also in
> Knytlinga saga. Which seemingly was written using info
> & materials provided by king Valdemar II of Denmark
> and his aides. Valdemar II was son of Sofie and
> Valdemar I.
>
> Some snippet points, as well as some supporting
> accounts, are in some other Icelandic sagas, written
> fifty ears or so, and/or a century, later.
>
> ---
>
> May I ask WHO actually was the Vladimir - who were his
> parents and further roots -
> whom that Polish author mentions, as
> - a different Vladimir, according to Dworzaczek's
> _Genealogia_, to whom she was married by 18 May 1136
> and who died after 1139 but before her third marriage
> ca 1142/43.
Apologies, I didn't put this comprehensibly - when I wrote:
"Peter Stewart" <p_m_s...@msn.com> wrote in message news:...
>
> "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:mailman.1315.12068766...@rootsweb.com...
<snip>
>> Then Rikissa married a Russian (Belarusian?)
>> princeling - whose ancestry is not easily identifiable
>> (at least, not with certainty), but with whom she
>> certainly had Sofia.
>
> In that case Dworzaczek identifed the second husband wrongly
I meant to say that Dworzaczek was wrong to identify the second husband (as
Vladimir of Novgorod who died after 1139) if this is not definite, as you
noted.
Dworzaczek was following Nicholas de Baumgarten [in Généalogies et mariages
occidentaux des Rurikides du Xe au XIIIe siècle, _Orientalia Christiana_ 9/1
(1927), table V no. 33], identifying Ryksa's second husband as Vladimir
(died ca 1141) the son of St Vsevelod of Novgorod, son of Mstislav Harald of
Kiev, but according to other modern authorities this Vladimir lived until
1168 whereas Ryksa was remarried to Sverker by ca 1143.
Peter Stewart