CP Correction: Marriage dates of Richard, Earl of Arundel, and Humphrey, Earl of Hereford
Douglas Richardson
Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 244-245 (sub Arundel) states that Richard,
Earl of Arundel and Surrey (died 1397), married (1st) by contract
dated 28 September 1359 Elizabeth de Bohun, daughter of William de
Bohun, Earl of Northampton. Elsewhere, Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 473
(sub Hereford) states that Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Essex,
and Northampton (died 1373) married after 9 September 1359 Joan,
sister of Richard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey. The two marriages were
a double wedding between an Arundel brother and sister and a Bohun
brother and sister.
A better date is available for the marriages of these two couples.
Recently, when I was going through the episcopal register of William
Edington, Bishop of Winchester, I found a record of the license for
the two marriages.
W. Edington, The Register of William Edington Bishop of Winchester
1346–1366 2 (Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8) (1987): 49–50:
"380. License for solemnizing matrimony granted at the request of
William earl of Northampton and Richard earl of Arundel, between
Humphrey, eldest son of the said William and Joan, daughter of the
said Richard; also between Richard, son of the same Richard, and
Elizabeth, daughter of the same William. To be celebrated in any
church by the prior of Lewes, or any other priest. Southwark, 17
October 1359."
This record suggests that the two couples were married shortly after
17 October 1359.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
E-mail: royala...@msn.com
Richard Smith
In a message entitled "CP Correction: Marriage dates..." you are taking
credit as a correction of CP when, if the information you offer is accurate,
it should at best be an addition. CP is not in error. It is an amendation,
not an emendation. That is basic English.
I would remind you that on 2003-11-12 23:22:05 PST you posted the following
remarks regarding the Complete Peerage:
{Douglas Richardson to Spencer "I don't accept several bastards listed for
King Henry I in the Complete Peerage account....I note that each and every
time the issue of King Henry I's bastards comes up, you immediate post the
number of his bastards found in
Complete Peerage." }
On 15 Nov 2003, you gave us a rather rambling account - wholely lacking in
scholarship - of Henry I's bastards, which you did without "delving" in your
files. In closing you said: "I'll reserve my comments on the other bastards
until later when I have more time to study the matter."
The question has been oft stated and is now restated: how do you agree or
disagree with the list of bastards of Henry I in Appendix D, Volume XI, of
the Complete Peerage?
Your posts on other matters in the CP would naturally raise the question:
have you had time to study the matter?
Best wishes,
and happy results in all your pursuits,
Richard Smith
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <royala...@msn.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 4:48 PM
Subject: CP Correction: Marriage dates of Richard, Earl of Arundel, and
Humphrey, Earl of Hereford
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 244-245 (sub Arundel) states that Richard,
> Earl of Arundel and Surrey (died 1397), married (1st) by contract
> dated 28 September 1359 Elizabeth de Bohun, daughter of William de
> Bohun, Earl of Northampton. Elsewhere, Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 473
> (sub Hereford) states that Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Essex,
> and Northampton (died 1373) married after 9 September 1359 Joan,
> sister of Richard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey. The two marriages were
> a double wedding between an Arundel brother and sister and a Bohun
> brother and sister.
>
> A better date is available for the marriages of these two couples.
> Recently, when I was going through the episcopal register of William
> Edington, Bishop of Winchester, I found a record of the license for
> the two marriages.
>
> W. Edington, The Register of William Edington Bishop of Winchester
> 1346-1366 2 (Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8) (1987): 49-50:
Brad Verity
Douglas,
I posted on these marriages back in April of this year.
> Complete Peerage, 1 (1910): 244-245 (sub Arundel) states that Richard,
> Earl of Arundel and Surrey (died 1397), married (1st) by contract
> dated 28 September 1359 Elizabeth de Bohun, daughter of William de
> Bohun, Earl of Northampton.
Patent Rolls: "28 Sept. 1359, Sandwich. Licence for Richard, earl of
Arundel, to grant to Richard, his son and Elizabeth, daughter of
William de Bohun, earl of Northampton, in tail, the manor of
Medmenham, of the value of 50l. yearly, as is said, and 216l. 13s. 4d.
of rent out of the castle and lordship of Chirk in the march of Wales,
which manor, castle and lordship are held in chief; with reversion to
the earl of Arundel and his heirs. By p.s."
> Elsewhere, Complete Peerage 6 (1926): 473
> (sub Hereford) states that Humphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford, Essex,
> and Northampton (died 1373) married after 9 September 1359 Joan,
> sister of Richard, Earl of Arundel and Surrey.
Papal dispensation was granted on 5 Ides (9th) Sep. 1359. See 'Cal.
Papal Reg., Letters', iii, 1342-62, p. 606.
> The two marriages were
> a double wedding between an Arundel brother and sister and a Bohun
> brother and sister.
Margaret Aston, in her 1967 biography 'Thomas Arundel', has this to
say (p. 5), "The eldest son and daughter [of the earl of Arundel] were
provided for together. Thomas was aged 6 when his father obtained
papal dispensations for a double marriage alliance involving the
brother and sister with whom, in after life, he was to be most closely
associated. They married a brother and sister of the Bohun family.
It is not known exactly when (or where) the marriages took place of
Humphrey Bohun, later earl of Hereford, Essex, and Northampton, with
Joan FitzAlan, and of Richard FitzAlan with Elizabeth Bohun. But it
is very likely that the youngest FitzAlan son was present. John
Arundel was married before this, on 17 February 1359, to Eleanor
Maltravers, grand-daughter and eventually sole heiress of John lord
Maltravers."
It was unusual for a second son (John was born by 1349, when property
in Surrey was settled on him) to be married before the eldest son
(Richard was born in 1346), but the Bohun/FitzAlan marriages were
probably in negotiation prior to 1359, and it took awhile to get the
papal dispensation.
> A better date is available for the marriages of these two couples.
> Recently, when I was going through the episcopal register of William
> Edington, Bishop of Winchester, I found a record of the license for
> the two marriages.
>
> W. Edington, The Register of William Edington Bishop of Winchester
> 1346?1366 2 (Hampshire Rec. Ser. 8) (1987): 49?50:
>
> "380. License for solemnizing matrimony granted at the request of
> William earl of Northampton and Richard earl of Arundel, between
> Humphrey, eldest son of the said William and Joan, daughter of the
> said Richard; also between Richard, son of the same Richard, and
> Elizabeth, daughter of the same William. To be celebrated in any
> church by the prior of Lewes, or any other priest. Southwark, 17
> October 1359."
>
> This record suggests that the two couples were married shortly after
> 17 October 1359.
And this record indicates they were married by 27 Oct. 1359.
"27 Oct. 1359, Sandwich. Licence, for 44l. 17s. 6.75d. paid to the
king by William de Bohun, earl of Northampton, for him to enfeoff ...
[snip of the list of feoffees and the details of the manor of Great
Wakeryng]..., to re-grant the premises to the earl for life, with
remainder to Joan daughter of Richard, earl of Arundel, and wife of
Humphrey son of the said earl of Northampton, for life, provided that,
if there be no divorce between the said Humphrey and Joan and Humphrey
wed no other woman in her lifetime or after her death by pretext of a
precontract, then after the death of the earl and all other parties
named above the whole manor shall remain to the said Humphrey and his
heirs of the body of Joan; and, if there be a divorce between Humphrey
and Joan or Humphrey wed as above, and Joan have no heir begotten of
her body by Humphrey or have such heir who shall die without heir of
his body, then the manor shall remain to Richard son of the said earl
of Arundel, and Elizabeth his wife, and the heirs of their bodies;
with remainder over in each contingency to the right heirs of the earl
of Northampton. By p.s. And be it remembered that the 44l. 17s.
6.75d. have been paid in the hanaper."
The following day after the above grant - 28 October 1359 - the earl
of Northampton set sail from Sandwich with the King on his French
expedition.
Cheers, -----Brad
Douglas Richardson
Between the records you found and the license I found, it narrows the
marriage date of the two couples in question as being sometime from 17
October to 27 October 1359. That's about as good as it gets.
When you have a moment, can you please post the sources of the records
you found. Thanks!
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
bat...@hotmail.com (Brad Verity) wrote in message news:<8ed1b63.03112...@posting.google.com>...
Brad Verity
> Between the records you found and the license I found, it narrows the
> marriage date of the two couples in question as being sometime from 17
> October to 27 October 1359. That's about as good as it gets.
Yes.
> When you have a moment, can you please post the sources of the records
> you found. Thanks!
Calendar of Patent Rolls - whatever volume the year 1359 falls under.
Calendar of Papal Letters - ditto
'Thomas Arundel' by Margaret Aston, her 1967 biography of the Archbishop.
Hope this helps.
Cheers, ---Brad