Follow-up to John Brock's Coat, Crest and Motto

[DUANE JONES via]

Thank You All, again, for reading and responding to my questions about John
Brock's Coat, Crest and Motto. I have a better copy, now, from A. Maude
(Cawthra) Brock's, "Brock Family Records".

http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.9_08436/160?r=0&s=1

As I wrote earlier, this is the description: Coat ~ Gules three
fleurs-de-lis or, on a Chief Argent a lion passant guardant of the field;
Crest ~ a pegasus courant gules, winged azure ducally gorged; Motto ~ Je
Me Fi En Dieu. To me, ducally gorged means this Pegasus has a crown around
its neck. It looks similar to others with - are they strawberry leaves?
The ring connected to the crown has a chain/rope/line of some kind that
definitely trails off between Pegasus's front legs, then behind its trunk,
then up-and-over and back to the front of Pegasus so the spectator can see
it; then, again, trailing down between its hind legs and connects to
another ring to the wreath that sits upon a helmet. Can someone explain
what all this means? Who would be eligible for a ducally gorged crown that
really does look like some kind of strawberry leaves with just the
spectator being able to see them, along with more strawberry? leaves just
under pegasus's neck and behind by where a horse's mane is. Also, what
does the helmet represent? Is that for a gentleman?

This Coat is similar to the Brocks of Guernsey, Channel Islands, where, I
suppose, Peter Brock, according to A. Maude Brock, was a son of Sir John
Broke and brother of George Broke. Peter was ancestor of the Brocks of
Guernsey. The only difference in all the descendants' Coats was instead of
three fleurs-de-lys, there was only one. A descendant, Oliver Brock,
Architect of Guernsey, was in Canada a couple of years ago to celebrate the
Bicentennial of Sir Isaac Brock's death and start a drive to commemorate
his life and times, not only on Guernsey, but Canada as well. I think they
are statues.

http://www.heraldry.ws/html/brock-guernsey.html

Also, the Brocks of Upton had Coats similar to Brock of Essex and Guernsey
except the Brocks of Upton did not have any fleurs-de-lis.

http://www.heraldry.ws/html/brock-chester.html

As an amateur, I can take much more liberty with documentary evidences.
Therefore, for me, I am stating with a little bit of reservation, that John
Brock's grandfather was John, Lord Cobham (Brooke) who married Margaret
Neville. Their first son was Thomas. Their second son was George
Broke/Brooke/Brook/Brocke who married Elizabeth Peche. Her first husband
was John Hart. They had four children. With George, Elizabeth had nine
children. I believe they were: John Brock, Leighs Parva, co: Essex, who
married Agnes Wiseman; Sir Thomas of Hartford, Stocke, Essex - I believe
he was rector; Richard, Gentleman of Radwinter/Rathwinter; Edward;
William; Elizabeth who m. Roydon; Mary; Faith; and, Dorothy. Richard's
Will is dated 14 Dec. 1563 and probated 3 Mar. 1564. He mentions his wife,
Elizabeth Brocke and his son William. He also mentions his Cousin the Right
Honourable William Brocke, Knight, Lord Cobham. Thomas's Will was probed
28 June 1571. He is listed as Sir Thomas Broke. He mentions children of
his brother, John Brocke, and his cousin Richard Brocke. He also mentions
William Brocke, his brother and his sister, Joane Brooke wife of Thomas
Bannester. He mentions his two brothers, William Brocke and Richard
Brocke. John Brock of Leighs Parva and Colchester and Agnes Wiseman had:
John, William, Robert, Humphrey, Richard, George and Jeffrey. Richard,
George and Jeffrey settled at Basford, co: Nottingham. I think John
Brocke only had a codicil. This George Brocke who was one of the brothers
who settled in Basford bought property from Sir John Hollis. William
Brocke was second son of John Brock of Leighs Parva. He married Margery
Bedell.

http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.9_08436/15?r=0&s=1

http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.9_08436/16?r=0&s=1

http://eco.canadiana.ca/view/oocihm.9_08436/17?r=0&s=1

John Brock and Agnes Wiseman had several children. A couple of them were:
John Brock who m. Anne de Vere, dau. of John de Vere, Earl of Oxford +
Elizabeth Trussell. This John Brock was of Colchester, Lord of Arnolds,
Mountnessing, co: Essex. They had much property in co: Essex and co:
Suffolk. William m. Margery Bedell, dau. of Thomas Beddel/Bedell/Bedyll
and Johan. Maybe this Thomas descended from William Bedell, mentioned 35
Hen. III. He was of Bedell's Hall. Richard Bedell held this estate under
John de Vere, who d. 1360. I do not know about any of the above, though.

There are too many similarities between Cobham and Brock. How can Anne de
Vere marry John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock's son, John Brock? Some of these
Wisemans were of Rivenhall, co: Essex.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LKIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA575&lpg=PA575&dq=rivenhall+essex+wiseman&source=bl&ots=4VIYx19biH&sig=n2i7zLmgKxLrEpCkChXi2oRPLCM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aAN4VIHNK8S_ggTj3ILIAw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rivenhall%20essex%20wiseman&f=false

Thank You to all for reading and responding to my questions. I am not an
expert in genealogy. I can go with with seems right even though I may be
wrong. I think about my ancestors each day.

[Geoff V]

I do not see why as an amateur you should be any less concerned with provable evidence that anyone else. Taking liberties is just that. There are enough poorly researched trees already printed on the internet- about 2000 odd of this John Brock for a start, over 400 of which give him an entirely un-evidenced ancestry from another John Brock and one Agnes Josselyn

> Therefore, for me, I am stating with a little bit of reservation, that John
> Brock's grandfather was John, Lord Cobham (Brooke) who married Margaret
> Neville. Their first son was Thomas. Their second son was George
> Broke/Brooke/Brook/Brocke who married Elizabeth Peche. Her first husband
> was John Hart. They had four children. With George, Elizabeth had nine
> children. I believe they were: John Brock, Leighs Parva, co: Essex, who
> married Agnes Wiseman; Sir Thomas of Hartford, Stocke, Essex - I believe
> he was rector; Richard, Gentleman of Radwinter/Rathwinter; Edward;
> William; Elizabeth who m. Roydon; Mary; Faith; and, Dorothy. Richard's
> Will is dated 14 Dec. 1563 and probated 3 Mar. 1564.

There is no evidence of which Richard he was and where he fits into the John Brock family in this will. It is dated before the will of the Sir Thomas Brock who follows in your account who names his brother Richard and his cousin Richard. By my count there were therefore three Richards on record around at the time and this one cannot be the brother of that Thomas!

Indeed- no evidence for this idea whatsoever

>
> There are too many similarities between Cobham and Brock.

I really don't know what you mean by this. If you are referring to the coats of arms then yes there are several similarities and they are interesting but only circumstantial evidence at best.

How can Anne de
> Vere marry John and Agnes (Wiseman) Brock's son, John Brock? Some of these
> Wisemans were of Rivenhall, co: Essex.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=LKIKAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA575&lpg=PA575&dq=rivenhall+essex+wiseman&source=bl&ots=4VIYx19biH&sig=n2i7zLmgKxLrEpCkChXi2oRPLCM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aAN4VIHNK8S_ggTj3ILIAw&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=rivenhall%20essex%20wiseman&f=false
>
> Thank You to all for reading and responding to my questions. I am not an
> expert in genealogy. I can go with with seems right even though I may be
> wrong. I think about my ancestors each day.

Please see the Ancestry tree published by Richard Green and check on the 'facts and sources' for each of these people and also his 'comments'

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/22605581/person/18020138734

If you are not an Ancestry member then join for a period so you can see this tree- it is fastidiously researched and referenced and a model of what an amateur can do. Richard has carefully considered the Anna (Cawthra) Brock book, my own researches and those of Ms D Dickson (whose blog you earlier posted) and he makes suggestions and clearly rejects suppositions and liberties. It will save you much time

best wishes

Geoff V