Sir Robert Peverel of Ashby Castle
mj...@btinternet.com
father-in-law of John, 1st Lord Engaine (CP, Engaine).
According to Moore's Knights of Edward I, he bore "goules, a les
crusules patee de or e[t] une fesse de argent"; he held lands in
Northants of at least £20 in value, and was summoned to serve overseas
(1297) and against the Scots (1301); in 1316, he was Lord of Ashby
David and Chadstone, Northants; he died circa 1318, when "certain men
were imprisoned for his death"; custody of his lands were granted to
Robert de Insula during the minority of Edmund, his son and heir (who
was also nephew and heir to Walter, Bishop of Coventry), and the
escheator was ordered to deliver Edmund for his marriage in 1323.
VCH Northants, sub Castle Ashby alias Ashby David, records that Walter
Langton, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield and sometime Treasurer of
England, obtained the manor of Ashby by 1306, when he had licence to
crenellate the house he was building there. The property was
afterwards settled upon Robert Peverel and his wife Alice for their
lives, with remainder to their son Edmund. After Robert's death, Alice
remarried Thomas de Verdon (ff 1346) and died in 1349, probably of the
plague, together with John, Edmund's son and heir; Ashby then passed to
Margaret, son's sister, and her husband William de la Pole. Their
granddaughter, Joan, Lady Cobham nee de la Pole, sold the estate to the
Braybrookes, who sold it on to Sir Reynold Grey of Ruthin in 1423.
ODNB, in its article on Walter Langton (d 1321), says that he was
probably born in West Langton within the parish of Church Langton,
Leicestershire [presumably he derived his surname from his birthplace],
and says that Sir Robert Peverel was the son and heir of his [ie the
Bishop's] brother, Simon Peverel.
Thus:
1. [unknown], had issue:
2a. Walter, called de Langton, Bishop of Coventry & Lichfield, d 1321
2b. Simon Peverel, had issue:
3. Sir Robert Peverel, Lord of Ashby & Chadstone, d c1318; married
Alice (married 2ndly Thomas de Verdon), d 1349; issue:
4a. Joan Peverel, married John, 1st Lord Engaine, left issue.
4b. Edmund Peverel, living 1323, dead by 1349; issue:
5a. John Peverel, died 1349 spl
5b. Margaret Peverel, married William de la Pole; issue:
6. Sir John de la Pole; issue:
7. Joan de la Pole, Baroness Cobham
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com wrote:
> Sir Robert Peverel of Ashby Castle, Northamptonshire, was the
> father-in-law of John, 1st Lord Engaine (CP, Engaine).
>
>
> probably born in West Langton within the parish of Church Langton,
> Leicestershire [presumably he derived his surname from his birthplace],
> and says that Sir Robert Peverel was the son and heir of his [ie the
> Bishop's] brother, Simon Peverel.
This assertion of ODNB appears to be contradicted by the entry from the
Plea Roll:
78. Walter de Trilleyk was attached to answer William de Fauconberge on
a plea of trespass. It is considered that William should recover 8
shillings against Walter, and Walter [is] in mercy. [The amerceinent
is] pardoned at the instance of Sir Robert Peverel, brother of the
treasurer, on behalf of the constable.
"The treasurer" is Walter de Langton; the document is dated 1296 (E
39/93/15 PRO)
Douglas Richardson
Bishop Walter Langton, not his nephew.
I can recommend to you an excellent article in print on Bishop Langton
in Nottingham Medieval Studies, 35 (1991): 70-76. The article
discusses the Bishop's life and family background in some depth. As I
recall, the article identifies Robert Peverel as the Bishop's full
brother and provides evidence to support this arrangement.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Website: www.royalancestry.net
Tim Powys-Lybbe
While I was surprised at ODNB - because of the emphasis that CP placed
on an IPM (V, 76, note (f)) - I had accepted the results of the later
research. But now that we are back at square one, I wonder who Simon
Peverel was? Might he have been the father of both Robert and Walter?
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org/
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< 4b. Edmund Peverel, living 1323, dead by 1349; issue:
5a. John Peverel, died 1349 spl
5b. Margaret Peverel, married William de la Pole; issue: >>
I thought there was some recent discussion of John and Margaret, probably
from an I.P.M. I have a note that John was b 1329/30 while Margaret was born
1331/2
I didn't mark a source on that, but it sounds suspiciously like ages from an
IPM, probably Alice's.
Oops, now checking my notes on Alice I see why, here you go
Subj: Re: C.P. Correction: Elizabeth de Lisle, wife of Edmund Peverel
Date: 8/20/05 10:44:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: royala...@msn.com (Douglas Richardson royala...@msn.com)
To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
As noted earlier in this thread, Complete Peerage, 8 (1932): 73, footnote i
(sub Lisle) states that Alice de Lisle, daughter of Robert de Lisle, Lord
Lisle, married (1st) Sir Thomas Seymour and (2nd) Robert Peverel. It further
claims that Alice de Lisle died in 1349, citing as its source the following:
Cal. Inq. p.m., vol. ix, no. 179.
The inquisition in question is the IPM of Alice, widow of Robert Peverel, of
Castle Ashby, Northamptonshire, and subsequently wife of Thomas de Verdun.
The writ for the inquisition is dated 5 May 1349. Alice Peverel's heir at the
time of her death was her grandson, John Peverel, aged 19. John Peverel was the
son of Alice's deceased son, Edmund Peverel, and his wife, Elizabeth de Lisle.
The IPM of Alice (_____) (Peverel) de Verdun is followed immediately in the
published calendar by that of her minor grandson, John Peverel. The writ for
his inquisition is dated 24 November 1349. John Peverel's heir was his sister,
Margaret, wife of William de la Pole, Knt., she being aged 18. Margaret
(Peverel) de la Pole has living descendants.
--------------------------------------------
So MAR from this we can alter Edmund's "living in 1323, dead by 1349" to
"living as late as 1330, latest date he could have fathered Margaret, dead by
1349"
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
writes:
<<
While I was surprised at ODNB - because of the emphasis that CP placed
on an IPM (V, 76, note (f)) - I had accepted the results of the later
research. But now that we are back at square one, I wonder who Simon
Peverel was? Might he have been the father of both Robert and Walter? >>
Tim in Langton's register, in his own hand (presumably), he names himself as
"the son and heir of Simon Peverel". His register is online, evidently a
newly printed facsimile book or something of that sort (I haven't looked yet)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Langton
Will Johnson
mj...@btinternet.com
Douglas Richardson schrieb:
> Yes, you are quite correct. Sir Robert Peverel was the brother of
> Bishop Walter Langton, not his nephew.
>
> I can recommend to you an excellent article in print on Bishop Langton
> in Nottingham Medieval Studies, 35 (1991): 70-76. The article
> discusses the Bishop's life and family background in some depth. As I
> recall, the article identifies Robert Peverel as the Bishop's full
> brother and provides evidence to support this arrangement.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
Many thanks, Douglas; that's very useful, as usual.
Best wishes, Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Very interesting; thanks, Will.
Anyone wish to start an ODNB corrections/additions page?
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Robert de Lisle was custodian of Edmund Peverel during his minority,
and arranged his marriage in 1323, according to the Patent Rolls.
Presumably the above statements cannot both be correct in asserting
that Robert Peverel and his son Edmund both married de Lisles - I
wonder which is the correct one. Do you know the source for the
statement that Edmund married Elizabeth de Lisle?
MA-R
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
I do have as you state Edmund married to Elizabeth de Lisle, dau of Robert,
1st Lord Lisle of Rougerment, that marriage in 1323. So this is an example (if
true) of a custodian, marrying his ward to that custodian's own child.
If that marriage is to be credited, then it seems that it's Robert Peverels'
wife whose origin is unknown. Her presumed children and grandchildren don't
give us any help, being named with perhaps the seven most common names in the
land.....
Will
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Absolutely right. I have checked the archives, as I ought to have done
earlier, and can confirm that Alice, wife successively of Robert
Peverel and Thomas Verdon, was not the daughter of Robert de Lisle, as
shown conclusively by Douglas last August. Mea culpa for not checking
the archives!
MA-R
Rosie Bevan
As you have noted there is plenty of evidence to show that Walter de
Langton was brother of Robert Peverel whose son was his heir, not the
least being Langton's IPM in 1322 - "Edmund, son of Robert Peverel his
brother, aged 14, is his next heir" and "His nephew a son of Robert
Peverel... is his next heir" [CIPM VI no. 330].
Walter's IPM also records that he held the manor of Ashley,
Northamptonshire, which he had acquired from John de Hotoft of Gunthorp
which was held of John de Beaufou for service of 1/2 a knight's fee. He
had acquired this property before 1306 when he was granted free warren
over his land there by King Edward I. The inquisition also records that
he held 3 acres in Kirk Langeton, Leicestershire, of Thomas Latimer,
Lord of Wardon. While this was in the next county to Northamptonshire,
in reality Kirk Langton, East Langton and Thorpe Langton are situated
only about 6 miles from Ashley. The bishop also held lands in Thorpe
Langton and Langton which were included in his grant of free warren in
1306. Part of Thorpe Langton was held in chief by the Bassets of Weldon
and was tenanted by members of the Peverel family. "Ralph Peverel in
1279 held 3½ virgates in demesne and 2 virgates in villeinage, all of
which he held of Thomas de Langton, who held of Richard Burdet, who
held of Robert de Tateshall, who held of Ralph Basset. [From: 'Church
Langton', A History of the County of Leicestershire: Volume 5: Gartree
Hundred (1964), pp. 193-213].
Walter Langton's interest in Ashley is likely to have predated his own
acquisition, as indicated by details from a law suit during the
1329/1330 Eyre of Northamptonshire [Sutherland, Donald W. (ed., 1983).
The Eyre of Northamptonshire, 3-4 Edward III, A.D. 1329-1330 (Selden
Soc., v. 97) p.454-261], in which the Abbot of Pipewell sued Ralph
Basset of Weldon and his wife Joan for hindering his presentation of a
parson to the church of Ashley, Northamptonshire. In setting out the
history of the advowson, the abbot outlined the descent and involvement
of the Peverel/ Langton family.
In the time of Richard I, the advowson was in the hands of a certain
Richard Dauntz , whose right descended to his daughter and heir, Agnes,
and from Agnes to Peter Peverel as her son and heir. When the church
became vacant there was a dispute between the abbot of Pipewell and
Peter over the next presentation to the church so they decided to take
turns, with Peter taking the first turn. He appointed Master Richard de
Langton, his cleric. The right of presentation descended to Peter's
daughter and heir, Agnes, who appointed William Peverel. Afterwards it
passed to her son and heir Ralph, who died without issue, so that it
passed to his kinsman and heir Richard de Piddington, from whom bishop
Walter Langton bought the advowson and made several presentations
during his lifetime.
The interest in the advowson passed from bishop Walter Langton after
his death in 1322 to Ralph Basset and his wife Joan. This appears to
have been achieved by forcible seizure of the estate, for Edmund
Peverel brought an action of entry sur disseisin, of 1 messuage, 1
mill, 2 carucates of land, 16 acres of meadow, 15 acres of wood and 102
shillings worth of rent in Ashley. Ralph Basset, Richard parson of
Cransley, William Latimer Bouchard and others were also accused in a
separate suit by the King of breaking into Langton's estate and
carrying off goods and chattels of the bishop's worth £300 to the
prejudice of Edward II (and the present king, in arrears) to whom
Langton owed large debts [Ibid, p.505, 533].
The participation of William Latimer Bouchard in this act is
significant, for Ralph Basset's wife was the daughter of William, Lord
Latimer (d. 1335), the evidence for this is given when Edmund Peverel's
attorney unsuccessfully objected that, "The lord of Latymer is bailiff
in fee of the hundred [of Corby], and the members of the panel are from
that hundred. The daughter of the lord of Latymer is married to Ralph
Basset the defendant; and the lord, through his bailiffs arrayed the
panel. We submit that the court would not wish to accept the members of
this panel as jurors in this assize." ("...la fille meisme celui
seignur de Latymer si est espose a meisme cestui R. Basset...") [Ibid,
p.422].
As noted above Walter Langton was holding land in Kirk Langton of
Thomas Latimer. Like William Latimer, Thomas represented one of the two
grand daughters and coheirs of Wischard Ledet, who died early in 1244
when William Meisnil gave 40 shillings for a fine with Mary, widow of
Wischard, over the custody of the lands and heirs [CRR, no. 1245]. One
of the two people to act as guarantor was Peter Peverel of
Northamptonshire.
While there is no actual proof of a connection between Walter de
Langton and the Peverels who had an interest in Ashley and Thorpe
Langton, the overriding impression is that they are of the same family,
and they had dealings with the Ledet/Latimer family over quite a period
of time.
When Ralph Basset, the elder, died in 1341 Joan remarried Robert de
Furneaux, probably a younger son of the Furneaux family of Barham,
Cambridgeshire, Middle Harling, Norfolk, and Ainderby Steeple,
Yorkshire, part of the 8 fees which the Furneaux family had held of the
earls of Brittany since the Conquest. He was undoubtedly related to
Sybil de Furneaux (sister and coheir of William Furneaux of
Carlton-in-Lindrick d. 1349) who was simultaneously Joan's
step-grandmother and her husband Ralph's aunt by marriage.
Cheers
Rosie
mj...@btinternet.com
Rosie Bevan schrieb:
> Dear Michael
>
> As you have noted there is plenty of evidence to show that Walter de
> Langton was brother of Robert Peverel whose son was his heir, not the
> least being Langton's IPM in 1322 - "Edmund, son of Robert Peverel his
> brother, aged 14, is his next heir" and "His nephew a son of Robert
> Peverel... is his next heir" [CIPM VI no. 330].
Rosie
Wow! Many thanks indeed for your detailed and informative response.
Your exposition of the Peverels was fascinating and a mine of
information, as usual.
Best wishes, Michael
WJho...@aol.com
rbe...@paradise.net.nz writes:
<< When Ralph Basset, the elder, died in 1341 >>
Is this Ralph the same person as "Sir Ralph Basset of Great Weldon" born 27
Aug 1300 son of Richard, 1st Baron Basset by his wife Joan de Huntingfield?
Rosie Bevan
I believe this identification is a CP addition.
Rosie
Rosie Bevan
R