Fergus of Galloway--Perhaps the Final Word
Todd A. Farmerie
RBodine996 wrote:
> Ultimately, all of these assertions come to be based upon
> two contemporary sources, Hoveden and Benedict Abbas, who
> was Benedict, Abbot of Peterborough, in Northamptonshire.
> The pertinent entry to the events in question can be found
> in Hoveden, ii, 105, Rolls Series 51, which reads-
> "In the same year Gilbert son of Fergus, prince of
> Galloway [the Gallowegians], who had caused his brother
> Uchtred to be killed, (Uchtred being) a blood relative of
> Henry king of England, came into England in the company
> of William king of Scots, and he became the man of the
> father of Henry, and he also swore fidelity against all
> men."
> Rolls Series 49 consists of the Chronicle of the Reigns
> of Henry II and Richard I, by Benedict, Abbot of
> Peterborough. Vol. 1, p. 80 reads--
> "Uchtred, son of Fergus, his [King Henry] blood relative
> was killed (by him), he [King Henry] did not want to make
> any kind of peace with the Galwegians."
>
> Vol 1, p. 126 reads--
> So, both Roger de Hoveden and Benedict Abbas, Abbot of
> Peterborough, contemporaries of Uchtred and Henry I,
> stated Uchtred was a blood relative of Henry II. How
> could that come about?
>
> In giving Stewart Baldwin an opportunity to review this
> account, he pointed out three possibilities which need be
> addressed--
>
> 1- "For example, the Annals of Ulster, under the year
> 1034, have the entry "Suibne m. Cinaedha, rí Gall-Gaidhel,
> mortuus est." [Suibne, son of Cinaed (Kenneth), king of
> the Galwegians, died.] I think it is quite possible that
> Fergus was a descendant of this Suibne, whose father could
> easily be one of the two Kenneths who ruled Scotland
> during that period, which would make Fergus a cadet of the
> royal line."
My gut reaction is that this seems a bit far removed to have
been commemorated under Kings Henry II and John.
> 2- Since there is no direct evidence of the specific
> relationship, only evidence that they were somehow
> related, I think that other possibilities need to be
> considered. For example, the grandmother of Henry II was
> a Scottish princess, so that if either Fergus or his wife
> were closely related to the Scottish kings, the
> relationship could have come about that way.
>
> To address these two possibilities and provide other
> pertinent details concerning Fergus, I will turn to P. H.
> M'Kerlie and his "History of the Lands and Their Owners
> in Galloway" [New Edition, 1906], vol. 1.
> Although M'Kerlie weaves a fascinating story he provides
> little documentation to support his claims.
Something to bear in mind.
> p. 110- "Beyond the statement that Fergus was forty-two
> years of age in 1138, nothing is known to indicate who he
> was. He was a courtier of David I, his name appearing in
> several charters granted by that monarch. He seems to
> have enjoyed considerable eminence, having for his wife
> Elizabeth, bastard daughter of Henry I of England."
Which is, of course the question at hand, so unless he had
independent evidence for this, care should be exercised in
using an account based on the acceptance of the relationship
as evidence for the relationship.
> p. 111-112 "...the contention that Fergus was the
> descendant or next of kin of Dovenald, son of Dunegal, is
> entirely erroneous. That he was a native of rank in
> Galloway, and succeeded by lineal descent to the position
> he held, is not supported by a single fact of any kind,
> and is opposed to a truthful history of the district.
One wonders the basis for this . . .
(still quoting the same passage)
> David was surrounded by unscrupulous adverturers from
> England, usually termed Anglo-Normans, but the progenitors
> of many were called the scum of Europe.
I would love to see that contemporary quotation.
(continuing quote)
> During the seventeen years he was Prince of Cumbria,
> David received the support of all the adventurers on the
> English border, and is said by all contemporary
> authorities to have been "terrible only to the men of
> Galloway." As king, after the battle, he had them
> fully in his power, and exercised it by placing a governor
> over them. Fergus, on appointment, at once commanded, as
> no native would have done, to build religious houses in
> connection with the English Church, alias Church of Rome,
> in opposition to the native Celtic Irish-Scottish Church
> of Iona.
And yet David made similar foundations IIRC, and he was
native.
> He was evidently of Norse descent, and one of King David's
> own school, or so appeared so as to ingratiate himself.
What is the basis of this Norse descent? The foundation of
Roman churches?
> p. 112- "It is necessary to repeat here that Fergus
> married Elizabeth, the bastard daughter of King Henry I
> of England. This King ruled from 1100 to 1135. Unless
> Fergus had been in England more or less time, he could
> not have become acquainted with her and married before he
> became Governor of Galloway, otherwise his descendants--
> three generations--would have had very short lives.
Again, his conclusion is based on the acceptance of the
marriage, so this whole line of reasoning is of no value to
the question.
> Also, had he been a native, from the position apparently
> held from the first, he would have led the Galwegians at
> the Battle of the Standard, instead of Ulgric and
> Dovenald.
So Henry VI wasn't English because otherwise he would have
led the English at Agincourt? That he succeeded other
Galwegian leaders in no way addresses his nationality.
> That Fergus was married long before his connection with
> Galloway, supported by the facts that Olaf, King of Man,
> began to reign in 1102, and that he had married Affrica,
> the daughter of Fergus, but previously had three sons
> and several daughters by his concubines, one of the
> latter becoming the wife of Somerled, the ruler of
> Argyll."
We don't know when Fergus was first connected with
Galloway. (Just because he wasn't in charge, doesn't mean
he wasn't from there.) Do we know that Elizabeth was mother
of Affrica? Affrica marries Olaf in 1102. If Elizabeth
were her mother, then that places Fergus's marriage to her
earlier than Henry I's succession, at a time when Henry was
wandering around looking for a role as the third son in a
realm with only two crowns. And Fergus married the
illegitimate daughter of this landless wanderer?
> This union with Fergus and Somerled is another link in the
> evidence that Fergus was of Norse origin.
No more so than Fergus's link with David prove he was
Scottish.
> In this there is another link to our statement that
> Fergus, first Lord of Galloway, and Somerled were
connected. They carried the same armorial bearings--viz.,
> a lion rampant--which, as we have described elsewhere,
> was of Scandanavian origin."
I am sure Fernando II of Leon had this in mind when he
selected this motif. (Same with the Welfs of Bavaria.)
> The third possibility Stewart point out was--
>
> 3- More importantly, there is the item that Todd
> Farmerie pointed out in his posting of 29 November, in
> which Turton states that Elizabeth was the illegitimate
> daughter of William Rufus. I don't think this is as
> chronologically difficult as Todd suggests (provided
> that Elizabeth was born toward the end of William's
> reign), and it would also explain the relationship.
I must admit, I was simply aping Evans' opinion, expressed
in his response to one of the Sheppard Royal Bye Blows
articles.
> W. H. Turton, in his "The Plantagenet Ancestry," [1928,
> reprinted 1984], p.101, shows a chart that reflects the
> following
[William as perhaps father of Elizabeth]
> In the index under Galloway (p. 252), Turton identifies
> his source for this lineage as 'Douglas' and on page xiii,
> containing his bibliography, this is better identified as
> "1904 Douglas, R., Scots Peerage."
>
> I think Turton confused his sources here. Sir Robert
> Douglas issued his "The Peerage of Scotland" in 2
> volumes in 1764, which were updated by John Philip Wood
> in a 2nd edition in 1813. In its account (vol. 1, p.
> 612-4) of the Lords of Galloway, there is no reference
> to the wife of Fergus. In 1904, Sir James Balfour
> issued "The Scots Peerage" in 7 volumes. And again, in
> his account of the "Ancient Lords of Galloway," vol. 4,
> p. 135-144, there is no reference to the parentage of
> Fergus's wife Elizabeth.
>
> In response to Turton's unfounded assertion, Frank Barlow,
> Head of the History Department of the University of Exeter
> for 25 years, in his comprehensive biography, "William
> Rufus" [1983], makes not a single reference to such an
> offspring. In fact, it is now well known that William
> Rufus, who died 2 Aug 1100, never married, and is not
> known to have left even illegitimate issue.
This is conventional wisdom, but the it wouldn't be the
first time . . .
Does Barlow actually respond to Turton, or did he simply
ignore (or perhaps was entirely unaware of) the claim?
I am simply unconvinced by these arguments. Particularly
the M'Kerlie, who doesn't appear to have addressed in
independently, but accepted it and used it as part of his
reanalysis of Fergus's nationality. Elizabeth could just as
well have been illegitimate daughter of one of David's
brothers, The names he gave his children are not indicative
of an Anglo-Norman connection so much as a borderlands one
(the names being common among Northumberland families,
including the Earls of that place, who were kinsmen of the
English royalty. There are too many other options to put
faith in a completely unreferenced tradition that Elizabeth
was Henry's daughter.
taf
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
Todd A. Farmerie wrote'
> "We don't know when Fergus was first connected with
> Galloway. (Just because he wasn't in charge, doesn't mean
> he wasn't from there.) Do we know that Elizabeth was mother
> of Affrica? Affrica marries Olaf in 1102. If Elizabeth
> were her mother, then that places Fergus's marriage to her
> earlier than Henry I's succession, at a time when Henry was
> wandering around looking for a role as the third son in a
> realm with only two crowns. And Fergus married the
> illegitimate daughter of this landless wanderer?"
If Elizabeth, the alleged (for Spencer's sake) daughter of
Henry I and his Concubine Nesta, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr,
who is listed in the Kings & Queens of England & Scotland by
Allen Andrews, Published by Marshall Cavendish Books,
1994 edition: as the Prince of Wales 1081-1093 and here I
Quote - page 95
"Meanwhile in the south, a chief named Rhys ap Tewdwr
(1081-1093) had been recgonized by William the Conqueror
as Lord of Deheubarth on payment of 40 pounds a year, a rent
which is recorded in the Domesday book". Unquote.
Quote- page 36
"Mistresses- the most notable of many is Nesta, daughter of
Rhys ap Tewdwr (Tudor), ruling prince of South Wales".Unquote.
Quote - page 36
"Bastards - Henry generously acknowledged 20 illegitimate children,
which is presumed to be only a selection of his offspring. The most
notable is the learned Robert, Earl of Cloucester, whom he dearly
loved and who voluntarily renounced the disputed succession on the
gound of his illegitimacy, notwithstanding the success of his
grandfather,
the Conqueror." Unquote
As a side note, in the hundreds of pages of paper on my desk
there is a new reference to Nesta as Elizabeth's mother. When I
find it, I will submit it.
While there is no proof in the above of Nesta being the mother,
or Rhys ap Tewdwr being the grandfather of Elizabeth, wife of
Fergus of Galloway, it is where I will focus my efforts in trying
to establish her heritage.
However, if she was the granddaughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr, I'm sure
she would not have been seen by Fergus of Galloway as a homeless
waif or wanderer.
Henry I was 32 when he succeeded as King of England on the 2nd
of August 1100 and I'm sure he had several concubine notches on his
belt before marrying Matilda, daughter of King Malcolm III of Scotland,
or for that matter, after he was married.
Olaf I, King of Man 1102-1153, a son of Godred Crovan, and the
husband of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of Galloway & (Elizabeth
Fitzhenry)
was according to some articles, was brought up in the court of Henry I,
of England. <<<<<Do you suppose thats how he met Aufrica?>>>>??
JUST SOME FOOD FOR MORE THOUGHT.
> > This union with Fergus and Somerled is another link in the
> > evidence that Fergus was of Norse origin.
>
I, for one don't believe they were of Norse origin. More to follow
on that, but I've got to do more homework on the matter,
or Spencer will get me ;-)
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Todd A. Farmerie
> If Elizabeth, the alleged (for Spencer's sake) daughter of
> Henry I and his Concubine Nesta, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr,
> who is listed in the Kings & Queens of England & Scotland by
> Allen Andrews, Published by Marshall Cavendish Books,
> 1994 edition: as the Prince of Wales 1081-1093 and here I
> Quote - page 95
Hold on a minute. We don't even know she was daughter of
Henry, let alone daughter by Nesta. What possible basis
could there be for this assignment?
> As a side note, in the hundreds of pages of paper on my desk
> there is a new reference to Nesta as Elizabeth's mother. When I
> find it, I will submit it.
I look forward to it.
> While there is no proof in the above of Nesta being the mother,
> or Rhys ap Tewdwr being the grandfather of Elizabeth, wife of
> Fergus of Galloway, it is where I will focus my efforts in trying
> to establish her heritage.
Why?
> However, if she was the granddaughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr, I'm sure
> she would not have been seen by Fergus of Galloway as a homeless
> waif or wanderer.
When, exactly, did Henry and Nesta take up with one
another? 15 years before he became king, when he was
seventeen and had no prospects? I think it was much later,
although we can't be certain.
> Henry I was 32 when he succeeded as King of England on the 2nd
> of August 1100 and I'm sure he had several concubine notches on his
> belt before marrying Matilda, daughter of King Malcolm III of Scotland,
> or for that matter, after he was married.
There is a big difference between having mistresses (a lot
of people who are not kings manage this) and having a
mistress, having a daughter by that mistress, and managing
to get that daughter married to one of the better noblemen
in Scotland before being king.
> Olaf I, King of Man 1102-1153, a son of Godred Crovan, and the
> husband of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of Galloway & (Elizabeth
> Fitzhenry)
We don't know she was Aufrica's mother.
> was according to some articles, was brought up in the court of Henry I,
> of England. <<<<<Do you suppose thats how he met Aufrica?>>>>??
Anything is possible I guess, but with the close proximity
and historical ties between Man and Galloway, I am not sure
they needed to travel all the way to England just to meet
(and based on the typical pattern of medieval marriages,
they may not have met until they stood before the priest).
taf
D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Much have I traveled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
"Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson" <lrand...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:389E337F...@telus.net...
|
| Todd A. Farmerie wrote'
|
| > "We don't know when Fergus was first connected with
| > Galloway. (Just because he wasn't in charge, doesn't mean
| > he wasn't from there.) Do we know that Elizabeth was mother
| > of Affrica? Affrica marries Olaf in 1102. If Elizabeth
| > were her mother, then that places Fergus's marriage to her
| > earlier than Henry I's succession, at a time when Henry was
| > wandering around looking for a role as the third son in a
| > realm with only two crowns. And Fergus married the
| > illegitimate daughter of this landless wanderer?"
|
| If Elizabeth, the alleged (for Spencer's sake) daughter of
| Henry I and his Concubine Nesta, daughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr,
| who is listed in the Kings & Queens of England & Scotland by
| Allen Andrews, Published by Marshall Cavendish Books,
| 1994 edition: as the Prince of Wales 1081-1093 and here I
| Quote - page 95
| "Meanwhile in the south, a chief named Rhys ap Tewdwr
| (1081-1093) had been recgonized by William the Conqueror
| as Lord of Deheubarth on payment of 40 pounds a year, a rent
| which is recorded in the Domesday book". Unquote.
|
| Quote- page 36
| "Mistresses- the most notable of many is Nesta, daughter of
| Rhys ap Tewdwr (Tudor), ruling prince of South Wales".Unquote.
|
| Quote - page 36
| "Bastards - Henry generously acknowledged 20 illegitimate children,
| which is presumed to be only a selection of his offspring. The most
| notable is the learned Robert, Earl of Cloucester, whom he dearly
| loved and who voluntarily renounced the disputed succession on the
| gound of his illegitimacy, notwithstanding the success of his
| grandfather,
| the Conqueror." Unquote
|
| As a side note, in the hundreds of pages of paper on my desk
| there is a new reference to Nesta as Elizabeth's mother. When I
| find it, I will submit it.
|
| While there is no proof in the above of Nesta being the mother,
| or Rhys ap Tewdwr being the grandfather of Elizabeth, wife of
| Fergus of Galloway, it is where I will focus my efforts in trying
| to establish her heritage.
|
| However, if she was the granddaughter of Rhys ap Tewdwr, I'm sure
| she would not have been seen by Fergus of Galloway as a homeless
| waif or wanderer.
|
| Henry I was 32 when he succeeded as King of England on the 2nd
| of August 1100 and I'm sure he had several concubine notches on his
| belt before marrying Matilda, daughter of King Malcolm III of
Scotland,
| or for that matter, after he was married.
|
| Olaf I, King of Man 1102-1153, a son of Godred Crovan, and the
| husband of Aufrica, daughter of Fergus of Galloway & (Elizabeth
| Fitzhenry)
| was according to some articles, was brought up in the court of Henry
I,
| of England. <<<<<Do you suppose thats how he met Aufrica?>>>>??
|
| JUST SOME FOOD FOR MORE THOUGHT.
|
| > > This union with Fergus and Somerled is another link in the
| > > evidence that Fergus was of Norse origin.
| >
|
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
The piece of paper I was missing was the print out of
"Always optimistic--Dave's submission dated
2 Feb 2000 07:28:21 - 0800 at U...@aol.com.
(still listed & not archived yet)
Todd's point on Aufrica's marriage to Olaf in 1102,
if correct certainly tightens up the time lines on the
possibility.
I think we all have to wait until that book on Henry I's
bastards is on the market for the probable final word.
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
New Westminster, BC, Canada
"Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson" wrote:
> Todd A. Farmerie wrote'
>
> > "We don't know when Fergus was first connected with
> > Galloway. (Just because he wasn't in charge, doesn't mean
> > he wasn't from there.) Do we know that Elizabeth was mother
> > of Affrica? Affrica marries Olaf in 1102. If Elizabeth
> > were her mother, then that places Fergus's marriage to her
> > earlier than Henry I's succession, at a time when Henry was
> > wandering around looking for a role as the third son in a
> > realm with only two crowns. And Fergus married the
> > illegitimate daughter of this landless wanderer?"
>
> > > This union with Fergus and Somerled is another link in the
> > > evidence that Fergus was of Norse origin.
> >
>
KHF...@aol.com
In a message dated 2/6/2000 3:50:32 PM, ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
<< Elizabeth could just as
well have been illegitimate daughter of one of David's
brothers, The names he gave his children are not indicative
of an Anglo-Norman connection so much as a borderlands one
(the names being common among Northumberland families,
including the Earls of that place, who were kinsmen of the
English royalty. There are too many other options to put
faith in a completely unreferenced tradition that Elizabeth
was Henry's daughter. >>
Yet this tradition that she was blood relation from Hovedon was near
contemporary. Are you not doubting too much? Has anyone tried to see how she
could be blood relation to Henry from a process of elimination? There are a
limited number of possibilities, so it would seem that some could be totally
eliminated and leave only a few. The biggest clue to her origin is her
marriage to Fergus--as only a woman with some social status would be
considered for this important alliance. Would a mere cousin be acceptable?
Probably not. Would a niece be acceptable--yes, but they are known. Does
this elimination not just leave Henry's daughters? And since the legitimate
ones are known, does this not leave her as being an illegitimate daughter of
Henry or one of his sons?
PS I believe an illegitimate daughter of William has been shown to be in
error.
- Ken (playing devil's advocate)
Kenneth Harper Finton
Editor/ Publisher
THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION
_____________________HT COMMUNICATIONS____________________
PO Box 1401 Arvada, CO 80001 USA
Voice: 303-420-4888 Fax: 303-420-4845 e-mail: K...@AOL.com
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Todd A. Farmerie
> The piece of paper I was missing was the print out of
> "Always optimistic--Dave's submission dated
> 2 Feb 2000 07:28:21 - 0800 at U...@aol.com.
> (still listed & not archived yet)
Maybe it was too long to clear the cut. Perhaps Dave can
fill us in on the basis for this assignment of Elizabeth to
Nesta.
> I think we all have to wait until that book on Henry I's
> bastards is on the market for the probable final word.
I seriously doubt that any book, no matter how well
researched, will contain the 'final word' on a question so
complex. Unless they come up with a contemporary document
of Henry's acknowledging her, all we get is one more
person's (however learned) speculation based on the same
data we have been considering.
taf
Don Stone
> > there is a new reference to Nesta as Elizabeth's mother. When I
> > find it, I will submit it.
>
> > sure she would not have been seen by Fergus of Galloway as a homeless
> > waif or wanderer.
>
> another? 15 years before he became king, when he was
> seventeen and had no prospects? I think it was much later,
> although we can't be certain.
To amplify this point, there is some relevant information in a recent
article by David Crouch, "Robert of Gloucester's Mother and Sexual
Politics in Norman Oxfordshire," _Historical Research_ 72 (Oct. 1999):
323-333. This article proposes that the mother of Earl Robert of
Gloucester, the oldest illegitimate child of Henry I, was a member of
the Gay or Gayt family of north Oxfordshire, perhaps a daughter of
Rainald or Reginald Gay, lord of Hampton and Northbrook, Oxfordshire.
(This is based, among other things, on a reference to Philip Gay as
cognatus [cousin] of Earl Robert.)
Crouch notes (p. 329) that Count (later King) Henry's next identifiable
mistress, Ansfrida, also had Oxfordshire connections and says that "it
seems from all this that Henry picked his earliest mistresses from a
small geographical area."
-- Don Stone
Todd A. Farmerie
> In a message dated 2/6/2000 3:50:32 PM, ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
>
> > << Elizabeth could just as
> > well have been illegitimate daughter of one of David's
> > brothers, The names he gave his children are not indicative
> > of an Anglo-Norman connection so much as a borderlands one
> > (the names being common among Northumberland families,
> > including the Earls of that place, who were kinsmen of the
> > English royalty. There are too many other options to put
> > faith in a completely unreferenced tradition that Elizabeth
> > was Henry's daughter. >>
>
> Yet this tradition that she was blood relation from Hovedon was near
> contemporary. Are you not doubting too much? Has anyone tried to see how she
> could be blood relation to Henry from a process of elimination? There are a
> limited number of possibilities, so it would seem that some could be totally
> eliminated and leave only a few.
That's blood relative of Henry II, grandson of
Edith/Matilda, sister of David. One alternative I suggested
above, that Elizabeth could have been a niece of David
(through one of his brothers) preserves this - Fergus's
children and Henry would have been second cousins. I am not
doubting that there was a relationship - just that it didn't
need to involve Henry I as the common ancestor. This is
exactly what you seem to be asking for - a consideration of
alternatives. In fact, Ronnie's post presented three
options suggested to him by Stewart.
> The biggest clue to her origin is her
> marriage to Fergus--as only a woman with some social status would be
> considered for this important alliance. Would a mere cousin be acceptable?
This is exactly the opposite of what Ronnie's source was
arguing - that Fergus, at the time of the marriage was a
relatively minor character not associated with Galloway.
This 'mere cousin' I am suggesting as an alternative would
have been daughter of a King of Scotland (the country, after
all, where Fergus was such an important gent).
> Probably not. Would a niece be acceptable--yes, but they are known.
Are they? What daughters did Duncan II have? We don't have
a clue. We only know of his male issue. The argument from
the absence of evidence is not valid. Had the Maid of
Norway not died unexpectedly, we would know almost nothing
of the illegitimate progeny of the Scottish kings.
> Does this elimination not just leave Henry's daughters?
No. As Stewart pointed out, the shared descent could have
been through Fergus himself, and not involved Elizabeth at
all.
> And since the legitimate
> ones are known, does this not leave her as being an illegitimate daughter of
> Henry or one of his sons?
Or of one of his brothers or of one of his wives brothers or
of one of his . . . .
> PS I believe an illegitimate daughter of William has been shown to be in
> error.
No, it has not. All that has been shown is that Turton was
not very careful in citing his source. (Actually, his
format for citation allowed only a single reference for each
individual, so could not adequately deal with a complex
issue.) Turton was thorough, of sometimes (perhaps even
often) misled by his sources. I do not think for a minute
he simply invented it. Thus he had a source, just not the
one listed, and this unknown source can't be any less
reliable, I would think, than a tradition of unknown origin
making her Henry's. I am curious what reference Turton
lists for Elizabeth herself, and for William II.
taf
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
"Todd A. Farmerie" wrote:
> "We don't know when Fergus was first connected with
> Galloway. (Just because he wasn't in charge, doesn't mean
> he wasn't from there.) Do we know that Elizabeth was mother
> of Affrica? Affrica marries Olaf in 1102. If Elizabeth
> were her mother, then that places Fergus's marriage to her
> earlier than Henry I's succession, at a time when Henry was
> wandering around looking for a role as the third son in a
> realm with only two crowns. And Fergus married the
> illegitimate daughter of this landless wanderer?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd & Group
I'm being overrun by recent posts on this topic. This post is only
submitted to deal with the date in the above paragraph submitted
by Todd where he states "Aufrica married Olaf in 1102".
History, that I believe is accepted that Olaf also had a marriage with
Ingibjorg, dau of Hakon, Jarl of Orkney, plus some concubines.
At some stage he fathered Reginald, Lagman, Harald and dau. Ragnahildis,
the wife of Somerled. I believe that these descendants were born before
their half brother Godred IV from Olaf's marriage to Aufrica.
The following items of history are quoted from the 'Illustrated Encyclopedia of the
Isle Of Man' originally compiled by David T. Wedder, F.R.I.C.S, Revised by Frank
Cowin, F.R.C.I.S and F.J. Radcliffe, B.A. and edited by Gordon N. Kniveton. This
edition published 1997 by the Manx Experience, 45 Slieau Dhoo, Tromode Park,
Douglas, Isle of Man IM2 5LG
Tele: 44 624 627727 - Fax 44 624 663627- email; ma...@enterprise.net.
Quote page 66-67
GODRED CROVAN. King of Man, 1079-1095, Son of Harald the Black and probably a
descendant of the 10th century Olaf Cuaran, King of Dublin. Godred came from
Islay. He is first noted in 1066 when he faught on the side of Harald Hardraada at
Stamford Bridge. Godred King of Man
(d. 1075) received him hospitably, but shortly there after Fingal, Godred's son
succeeded to the throne. Godred Crovan was attempting to take the Kingship of Man
for himself. The 'Chronicles of the Kings of Man and the Isles' describes fully
how, at the third attempt, Crovan defeated Fingal's forces near Skyhill. He had
hidden three hundred men in a wood on the hill slope and these emerged to attack
Fingal's forces in the rear at the height of the battle. It was high tide and the
retreating Manx forces were pinned between the flooded Sulby River and the enemy.
Godred had mercy on his defeated enemies 'since he had been reared among them for
some time'. Godred led further campaigns in Ireland around Dublin, which he held
for a few years and also tamed the Scots of Galloway. According to an Irish source
he died of plague on Islay in 1095. This nickname 'Crovan' could be taken to read
'white hand / gauntlet', but in Irish sources it is 'Meranach', literally
'fingers'. He is generally held to be the 'King Orry' of Manx tradition. He was
able to weld the Hebrides and Man into one kingdom and probably had an 'Althing' of
the Isle composed of 32 representatives - 16 from Man and 16 from the Hebrides. He
seems to have been able to achieve all this because of a power vacuum from
weakening amongst the former overlords of Man, the Earls of Orkney and the Kings of
Dublin. His dynasty lasted almost two hundred years.
Unquote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Comment by L.R. (Andy) Anderson: There is evidence that Godred Crovan had four
sons: Ingemund d.c. 1097, Lagman, King of Man d.c. 1096/7, Harald, and Olaf d. 29
June 1153. I know of no factual evidence that lists a mother for these sons.
While family sources say that Godred Crovan married Ragnhild Maria Haraldsdotter
(Hardraada-King of Norway-d 25 Sept 1066 - Stamford Bridge) there is to my
knowledge, no proof of that. However, it is possible, as before mentioned, Godred
was a supporter of Harald's at Stamford Bridge, that he may have married Maria in
Norway or the Orkneys before they left for England, however, history only tells us
that Maria died mysteriously 25 Sept 1066, in the Orkneys, the same day as her
father at Stamford Bridge.
The next King of Man.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: page 90
LAGMAN. One of the three sons of Godred Crovan, he succeeded his father in 1095 as
King of Man. His brother Harald, stirred up civil war but was captured in battle
and brutally mutilated by Lagman. Lagman in repentance for his evil deed died on
the First Crusade. Unquote
Quote: page 177
Lagman becomes King but takes the cross of the Crusaders after putting out the eyes
of the rebellious Harald, and dies in Jerusalem in 1096. During the minority of
Olaf, there is great uncertainty (including the occupation of King Magnus of Norway
1098-1103) until the return of Olaf from the court of King Henry I of England.
Unquote
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The next King of Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote: page 116-117
OLAF I. King of Man, 1102-1153. Also known as Olaf the Red or Dwarf, he was one of
the three sons of Godred Crovan, but being a minor at the time of succsession, the
King of Ireland appointed a kinsman, Donald, to act as regent. Donald rendered
himself so obnoxious to the Manx people that he was expelled from the Island in the
third year of his reign. In 1114 the Norse made a fruitless attempt to regain the
sovereignty of the Island but the Chiefs agreed to call Olaf, who was now of age,
to the throne of his father (c:1113). <<minor snip on churches>> Olaf secured
peace to his dominions by contracting a marriage with Aufrica, daughter of Fergus,
Prince of Galloway. He was slain at a conference at Ramsey in 1153 by his nephew,
Reginald, who was later captured and slain. Olaf was succeeded by his son Godred
II. Unquote
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the above paragraph we see that Olaf was now considered "of age" in or about
the year 1113. He would have clearly been a minor in 1102 when Todd states above
that Olaf married Aufrica in 1102. That date for the marriage has to be seen as
wrong.
Henry I, of England was born in 1068 (from the Kings & Queens of England &
Scotland). In 1090 he would have been 22 years of age. There clearly would have
been time (to spare) for him to have fathered Elizabeth with Nesta, daughter of
Rhyes ap Tewdwr to have Elizabeth old enough to marry Fergus of Galloway in time to
have Aufrica in time to marry Olaf and between them to father Godred II who became
his successor when he was murdered in 1153.
And if Olaf contracted the marriage to Aufrica with Fergus of Galloway, as above
stated, Fergus most of held power over the region in the 1030s & 40s and most
likely part of the 1050s. Fergus had retired to the Abby at Edinburgh Castle by
the late 1050s and died in 1061.
In closing, it is my opinion, from a time line point of view, it is entirely
plausible that Henry I. of England could in fact, have fathered Elizabeth via his
concubine, Nesta. I believe there is enough evidence in history to accept that
this concubine relationship between Henry and Nesta did exist.
I further believe there was clearly suffient time for Elizabeth to then marry
Fergus and have Aufrica to be of an age to marry Olaf I with time to spare to
father Godred to be of age to be his successor in 1153.
And so sayth ;-)
LEA...@aol.com
<< By the way, even though this theory and others (like the William II
theory) look possible, it seems to me that the scenario which makes
Fergus's wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I still has a lot
going for it. It makes Henry II and Fergus's sons first cousins,
whereas none of the other scenarios would make them any closer than
second cousins.
Stewart Baldwin >>
Fergus of Galloway is mentioned twice in _The Early Scottish Charters Prior
to A.D. 1153_ Sir Archibald Campbell Lawrie; James MacLehose and Sons;
Glasgow, 1905:
I will quote the charters if someone wants to see them. This is taken from
the Notes section.
Page 314: Notes on Charter LXIII - a letter from Pope Honorius II to Gilla
Aldan, the Bishop (elect) of Candida Casa.
"Gilla Aldan was the first bishop when the see was reestablished by Fergus of
Galloway"
Page 362: Notes on Charter CXXV - King David addressing his entire Kingdom
and the English about his gift to the church of St. Kentgern (Glasgow)
Explanation of Karric
"Karric is Carrick, the southern part of Ayrshire, which was either granted
to Fergus of Galloway or was part of his paternal inheritance. Fergus de
Galweia was the descendant and representative of the old chiefs of Galloway.
He is never styled 'comes'; the Chronicle of Holyrood calls him 'princeps.'
He married an illegitimate
daughter of King Henry I. of England. He founded the monastery of Dundrennan,
and restored the Bishopric of Candida Casa. In 1160 he became a canon in
Holyrood Abbey, where he died."
There are also references to Fergus dealing with the murder of Uchtred by
Gilbert in
_ Annals of the Reigns of Malcolm and William Kings of Scotland A.D.
1153-1214_
Sir Archibald Campbell Lawrie, James MacLehose and Sons; Glasgow, 1910.
All of these are collected from various sources including Fordun and
Benedictus Abbas, but none are definitive about origins of Fergus.
MichaelAnne Guido
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
LEA...@aol.com wrote:
<<snip>>
> Fergus of Galloway is mentioned twice in _The Early Scottish Charters Prior
> to A.D. 1153_ Sir Archibald Campbell Lawrie; James MacLehose and Sons;
> Glasgow, 1905:
>
> I will quote the charters if someone wants to see them. This is taken from
> the Notes section.
>
I, for one, would love to see / read the charters you mention.
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Are they? What daughters did Duncan II have? We don't have
>a clue. We only know of his male issue. The argument from
>the absence of evidence is not valid. Had the Maid of
>Norway not died unexpectedly, we would know almost nothing
>of the illegitimate progeny of the Scottish kings.
I was looking into this some more yesterday, and noticed an
interesting possibility. Duncan II married Ethreda/Etheldreda,
daughter of Gospatric of Northumberland [Source: DNB], who was a
descendant of Uhtred, the Anglo-Saxon earl of Northumbria. Thus, if
Fergus was married to a daughter of Duncan (chronologically possible
if the hypothesized daughter was born late in Duncan's life), then
that would explain where the name of Fergus's son U(c)htred came from.
(Also, Henry II and Gospatric were both descendants of Aethelred II,
which would give a second relationship.)
D. Spencer Hines
Not to be overbearing, just honest. OK?
Well, it's long, but not particularly convincing.
| In closing, it is my opinion, from a time line point of view, it is
| entirely plausible that Henry I. of England could in fact, have
| fathered Elizabeth via his concubine, Nesta.
Do you honestly think that's good enough as genealogical evidence for
this alleged filiation?
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
"Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson" <lrand...@telus.net> wrote in message
news:389F92B3...@telus.net...
Todd A. Farmerie
First of all, Turton and his sources. While in his index,
Turton, under Galloway, cites sources as discussed in
Ronnie's post. However, this is not the citation for the
specific relationship we are discussing. This is found
under 'England, William II, illeg. . . .' Here he cites
both his source and provides a discussion (in Note 49). The
source is Arch. Camb. 1857. I don't have access to this,
but perhaps someone can pursue it. In his discussion, he
indicates that the link between Elizabeth and Henry is
expressed, with a degree of uncertainty, by Dugdale. This
notice predates Paul, and is perhaps his source. It also
suggests the possibility, depending on what Dugdale has to
say, that the esteemed early genealogist is the origin for
this assignment. Perhaps being aware ofthe relationship
between Henry II and Uhtred, he hypothesized the connection
- and hence this is not based on any kind of ancient
tradition, but instead just another geneaolist speculating
based on the kinship statements. Again, I don't have
access, but I would be interested in exactly what Dugdale
has to say. Turton's criterion for selecting William over
Henry is not valid, but he certainly had a source of some
sort, which only a look at Arch. Camb. will reveal.
Next, the chronological issue. What has been discussed here
to date with respect to chronology has been a big red
herring, in fact due to my own misreading of an earlier
post, and should be set aside, with the exception of the
dates just provided by Andy. The problem with chronology is
just the opposite of what we have here been discussing. I
pulled out an old Scottish Historical Review article on the
ancestry of Fergus. While I didn't find it very convincing
as to its intended focus, it did provide some specifics on
Fergus and the family tradition. Fergus, it says, first
appears at David's court, in 1137. This falls within the
deduced range which Andy put forward based on his arranging
the marriage of his daughter Aufrica to the King of Man
(1130-1140). Where did he come from before that? There is
a surviving poem written about the family during (it is
thought) the life of Alan of Galloway, great-grandson of
Fergus. While it is somewhat confused, it relates that the
founder of the dynasty was the son of a Somerled, a villein
with land bordering on the Solway. The accuracy of this is
subject to debate, but I will just say that it is not
typical to minimize the founder's status. This suggests a
rapid rise to prominence under David, and makes one wonder
if Fergus was not analogous to Geoffrey Fitz Piers, a member
of the minor gentry who achieved large lands and titles
through the royal service.
In this context, lets now look at the marriage. There are
two possibilities. He was married before he achieved
prominence, or he was married after(or as) he hit the big
time. (Aufrica is, perhaps, a distraction, as we do not
know that she was royal kin, just her (? half-)brothers.)
Such a marriage cannot help but be viewed politically, as
Henry I, perhaps moreso than any other English monarch, made
use of his progeny for political purposes. Before Furgus's
rise, he appears to have been a minor entity at a foreign
court. Placed in the context of Henry marrying one of his
illegitimate daughters to the King of Scotland, a marriage
to Fergus is on a different scale altogether, with no
possible gain to Henry. (About the only possible scenario
that comes to mind is something similar to Aethelstan's
approach to Otto I - sending two sisters and telling him to
pick one and do with the other what he would - but the
chroniclers report no such arrangement in the case of
Alexander's marriage.) Sure, it would have been a great
match for Fergus, but Henry had enough minor nobles at home
that he didn't have to send a daughter off to Scotland to
marry a nobody.
Now lets look at the situation after Fergus achieved his
position. This would be shortly before 1037. What was
Henry's condition at that time? Not only was he below
ground, but his kingdom was torn by civil war, with no
particular reason to think that a marriage to a daughter of
the former King would have been a positive recommendation in
Stephen's kingdom. Certainly a kinswoman of the David would
be a better match. Moving back a little earlier, prior to
Henry's death, he certainly had need of daughters to use as
political tools in strengthening his daughter's standing as
heiress, and a marriage to the Lord of Galloway, however
prominent he may have been in Scotland, would not have
furthered Henry's aims.
Finally, in a previous post, I just off the cuff asked about
Duncan II, and about the north-england naming pattern seen
in Fergus's sons. Stewart has already posted about
something I discovered last night, that Duncan's with
Ethelreda was of the Earls of Northumberland. The
chronology of this connection is certainly problematic, as
Duncan was murdered long before Fergus appears, but their
son William was a slightly older contemporary, and an
illegitimate daughter (she could not have been legitimate
ased on the inheritance pattern) could have been of the
right age to marry Fergus. This is all pie in the sky
speculation, but it does give Ken his alternative.
taf
D. Spencer Hines
Well said.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum.
Exitus Acta Probat.
Filiations need to be based on Evidence.
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
"Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu> wrote in message
news:38A067B4...@po.cwru.edu...
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
MachaelAnne has sent me the two charters (and permission to
repost) that Fergus of Galloway is recorded as signing along
with other noteables.
Can we ask someone within the group that has the expertise of
wordsmithing Latin to do a translation for us.
Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
New Westminster, BC, Canada
Charter CIX - Charter by King David granting Perdeyc to the church of
Glasgow, circa A.D. 1136 Registr. Episcop. Glasguensis, No. 3
David Rex Scotiae, Baronibus ministris et omnibus fidelibus suis clerics
et laicis totius regni salutem. Sciatis me dedisse et concessisse
Deo et ecclesiae Sancti Kentigerni de Glasgu terram illam in Perdeyc
in perpetuam elemonsinam, pro anima mea et partris et matris meae
et fratrum et sororum mearum et salute Henrici filli mei et omnium
antecessorum et successorum meorum, quam Ascelinus ejusdem
ecclesiae archdiaconus de me tenebat in nemore et plano, aquis et
piscinis, pratis et pascuis, et in omnibus allis locis; per rectas divias
sicut Ailsi et Tocca eas tenebant die quo praedicta terra fuit in meo
domino, ita quod archidiaconus faciat Deo et Sancto Kentigerno
de Glasgu, quam modo mihi facere solebat, scilicet annuatim unam
marcam argenti pro omnibus servitiis et consuetudinibus quam diu
vixerit. Post decessum vero archdiaconi remaneat praedicta terra
ecclesiae deservienda, ita libera et soluta et quieta sicut melius et
liberius tenet suas alias terras et elemosinas...eisdem libertatibus.
Praesentibus testibus Herberto Abbate de Rochesburc, Willelmo
cancellario, Willelmo filio Duncan, Malis Comite, Dunecano Comite,
Fergus de Galweia, Aad cum babra, Malduueni mac murdac,
Malodeni de Scona, Malodeni mareschal, Radulfo filio Dunegal,
Duunenald fratre ejus, Uchtred filio Fergus, Hugone Britone,
Herberto camerario, Gileberto fimboga, Gileberto de Striuelin,
Dufoter de Catateria. Apud Glasgu.
Charter CXXV
Charter by King David granting to the Church of St. Kentigern at
Glasgow the tithe of his can of beasts and pigs from Strathgryfe,
Cuningham, Kyle and Carrick, circa 1139-1141.
Registr. Episcop. Glasguens., No. 9.
David Dei gratia Rex Scottorum, Baronibus ministris et fidelibus suis
totius regni sui tam Gawensibus quam Anglicis et Scotis salutem.
Sciatis me dedisse et concessisse Deo et ecclesiae Sancti Kentigerni
de Glasgu in perpetuam elemosinam totam decimam meam de meo
chan, in animalibus et porcis de Stratgriua et Cunegan et de Chul et
de Karric unoquoque anno nisi tunc quum ego ipse illuc venero
perendinens et ibidem meum chan comedens. Testibus Willelmo
Cumin cancellario, Hugone de Moreuilla, Fergus de Galweia,
Hugone Britone, Waltero filio Alani, Alwino Mac Archil, Radulfo filio
Dunegal, Duneenald fratre suo. Apud Cadihou.
"Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson" wrote:
> Michael Anne
> LEA...@aol.com wrote:
> <<snip>>
> > Fergus of Galloway is mentioned twice in _The Early Scottish Charters Prior
> > to A.D. 1153_ Sir Archibald Campbell Lawrie; James MacLehose and Sons;
> > Glasgow, 1905: >
> > I will quote the charters if someone wants to see them. This is taken from
> > the Notes section.
> >
> I, for one, would love to see / read the charters you mention.
> Lyle R. (Andy) Anderson
> New Westminster, BC, Canada
LEA...@aol.com
<<
Here goes:
If Fergus of Galloway appeared in King David's court in 1137 then why is the
first charter dated circa 1136 and probably is earlier as David greets his
brother Henry I
who died in 1135? David certainly wasn't talking to Henry II and Stephen was
King of England. Also Uchtred signs the charter as a witness as well as
Fergus. William FitzDuncan is also one of the signers of the first charter.
Lawrie based his theory that the wife of Fergus of Galloway was an
illegitimate daughter of Henry I on something. In other cases where what he
states in the interpretation of a charter is in dispute he usually states the
opposing view and then why he believes his conjecture is correct. There is
no qualification in Lawrie's notes.
Does someone have access to Dalrymple's charters and notes?
MichaelAnne Guido
James P. Robinson III
to me that the name Keziah/Kesiah (appearing in the Baldwin family of
Milford, CT. and then Newark, NJ in the 17th and 18th C.) is actually a
nickname for Elizabeth. Is this so?
Jim Robinson
--
=================================================
James P. Robinson III jpro...@ix.netcom.com
All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given.
=================================================
raymond l montgomery
of his relationship to somerled. Would that not account for some
prominence to keep the kings of man and the isle at bay?
Hypothisis only!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RAY
On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:00:59 EST LEA...@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 02/07/2000 10:26:30 PM EST, sba...@mindspring.com
>writes:
>
> theory) look possible, it seems to me that the scenario which makes
> Fergus's wife an illegitimate daughter of Henry I still has a lot
> going for it. It makes Henry II and Fergus's sons first cousins,
> whereas none of the other scenarios would make them any closer than
> second cousins.
>
> Stewart Baldwin >>
>
>Prior
>to A.D. 1153_ Sir Archibald Campbell Lawrie; James MacLehose and Sons;
>
>Glasgow, 1905:
>
>I will quote the charters if someone wants to see them. This is taken
>from
>the Notes section.
>
________________________________________________________________
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D. Spencer Hines
--
D. Spencer Hines
Lux et Veritas et Libertas
"Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
"James P. Robinson III" <jpro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:4.2.2.20000208...@popd.ix.netcom.com...
John Steele Gordon
> I must apologize as this is slightly off-topic, but it has been suggested
> to me that the name Keziah/Kesiah (appearing in the Baldwin family of
> Milford, CT. and then Newark, NJ in the 17th and 18th C.) is actually a
> nickname for Elizabeth. Is this so?
I had a great great grandmother (b. 1832) whose name was Alice Keziah
Screvan from South Carolina. Keziah is not a family name that I know of.
JSG
--
http://www.familyorigins.com/users/g/o/r/John-S-Gordon
Jeff Snavely
Actually, Keziah is not a nickname, it is a Biblical name (see Job 42:14).
The names 'Kizza' and 'Kizzie' are nicknames for Keziah according to
<http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgw/researchers/nicknames.html>
----- Original Message -----
From: "D. Spencer Hines" <D._Spence...@aya.yale.edu>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2000 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: 17th C. Colonial Nicknames (Keziah)
> _Hezekiah_? Male.
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> "Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
> kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
> fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
> First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"
>
> "James P. Robinson III" <jpro...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:4.2.2.20000208...@popd.ix.netcom.com...
>
> | I must apologize as this is slightly off-topic, but it has been
> suggested
> | to me that the name Keziah/Kesiah (appearing in the Baldwin family of
> | Milford, CT. and then Newark, NJ in the 17th and 18th C.) is actually
> a
> | nickname for Elizabeth. Is this so?
> |
Chris & Tom Tinney, Sr.
one of the daughters of Job. First used in the 17th c.
Puritans; a favourite name of the 18th c. and common
in the 19th c. . . ."
The New American Dictionary of First Names
by Leslie Dunkling, William Gosling
"This title is out of print." [Amazon.com ] c 1983/ c 1985
---------------------------------------------
"James P. Robinson III" wrote:
U...@aol.com
writes:
<< Maybe it was too long to clear the cut. Perhaps Dave can
fill us in on the basis for this assignment of Elizabeth to
Nesta.
>>
The source I have for Elizabeth is Weis 121B-26, for Nest Weis 178:2 but I do
not have a copy so I do not know what is said. I would guess I got the data
from one of Ed's posts??
Always optimistic--Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
> RE>Duncan II's wife Ethelreda was of the Earls of Northumberland....their son
> William was a slightly older contemporary...
>
> Any paternity for Ethelreda?
As Stewart posted earlier, she was daughter of Earl
Gospatric.
> Am I reading it correctly that Duncan II had a
> son William?
Yes. He married the granddaughter of Lulach, stepson of
MacBeth, and their sons and one grandson launched successive
attempts at the throne, all unsuccessful and IIRC, fatal.
taf
Nathaniel Taylor
<JSGGen...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"James P. Robinson III" wrote:
>
>> I must apologize as this is slightly off-topic, but it has been suggested
>> to me that the name Keziah/Kesiah (appearing in the Baldwin family of
>> Milford, CT. and then Newark, NJ in the 17th and 18th C.) is actually a
>> nickname for Elizabeth. Is this so?
>
>I had a great great grandmother (b. 1832) whose name was Alice Keziah
>Screvan from South Carolina. Keziah is not a family name that I know of.
Keziah is listed in the excellent _New American Dictionary of Baby Names_
(Signet, 1985), which has good etymologies and historical usage notes, as
an Old Testament name for one of the daughters of Job. It was in use both
in New England and in the South in the 17th and 18th centuries. I have a
couple of ancestors named Keziah.
Nat Taylor
DavidBotts
William was a slightly older contemporary...
Any paternity for Ethelreda? Am I reading it correctly that Duncan II had a
son William?
Thanks,
Dave
Renia Simmonds
> RE>Duncan II's wife Ethelreda was of the Earls of Northumberland....their son
> William was a slightly older contemporary...
>
> Any paternity for Ethelreda?
See Stewart Baldwin's previous post, where he says:QUOTE
I was looking into this some more yesterday, and noticed an
interesting possibility. Duncan II married Ethreda/Etheldreda,
daughter of Gospatric of Northumberland [Source: DNB], who was a
descendant of Uhtred, the Anglo-Saxon earl of Northumbria.
UNQUOTE
Renia
Renia Simmonds
them, but present you with this:
>From "Scottish Clan and Family Names, Their Arms, Origins and Tartans" by Roddy
Martine, Foreword by Malcolm Innes of Edingight CVO Lord Lyon King of Arms, John
Bartholomew & Son, Ltd, Edinburgh, 1987.
Fergusson
....The Fergussons of Kilkerran descend from Fergus, son of Fergus, in the time
of Robert Bruce. Fergus, King of Galloway, in the reign of David I, married a
daughter of Henry I of England...
But, from "The Pictorial History of Scotland", vol I, by James Taylor D.D. (and
other
contributors) James S Virtue, London and New York, 1859:
[Note, p 61] It is worthy of notice, that this is the last time the Picts of
Galloway are mentioned in history. It appears that a considerable body of the
Pictish nation had remained in that district, and up to this date [1137] had
preserved their national peculiarities.
[Note p 62] This war-cry, of course, asserted that the Galwegians were THE most
ancient inhabitants of Scotland; in other words, the descendants of the Picts or
ancient Caledonians.
The Gallowaymen... lost their leaders, Ulrick and Dovenald. [22nd August, 1138]
[p 67] At this critical period, also, a formidable insurrection broke out in
Galloway; partly, it would appear, from the jealousy with which the Celtic
inhabitants of that district viewed the introduction of Saxon settlers, and saxon
laws and customs. With characteristic intrepidity he attcked them a third time,
and obtained a complete victory. Fergus, the Lord of Galloway, submitted to the
authority of Malcolm, gave his son, Uchtred, as a hostage, and asumed the habit
of a canon-regular in the Abbey of Holyrood, where he died in 1161. [note: Chron.
Mel. p. 169.]
[p 69] In the beginning of the following year (1175), William returned to
Scotland along with his brother David, and on the 10th of August following, he
and his clergy and barons did homage to Henry at York, in terms of the treaty of
Falaise. Meantime his captivity was the signal for an insurrection among the
turbulent inhabitants of Galloway. Fergus, the chief of that province, who was
subdued by Malvolm IV, died in 1161. According to the ancient Celtic law of
inheritance, his territories were divided between his two sons, Uchtred and
Gilbert. At the head of their clansmen, these chiefs were in attendance upon King
William during that disastrous expedition into Northumberland which termininated
in his captivity. On the loss of their sovereign, the Scottish army made a
precipitate retreat into their own country. The Gallowaymen retired into their
native fastnesses, and, with their characteristic turbulence and jealousy of
foreigners, they availed themselves of this favourable opportunity to attack the
Saxons and Normans who had settled in their district, and to expel the regal
officers. They proceeded next to turn their arms against each other (September
22, 1176), and Gilbert caused his brother Uchtred to be assassinated with
circumstances of horrible barbarity. [note: Fordun, lib. viii. c. xxv.; Benedict.
Abbas. p.92; Hailes's Annals, vol i. p.151]..... In 1176, Gilbert presented
himself, among the other Scottish barons, at York, did homage to the English
king, and was received into favour. Henry is said to have sold his protection to
the fratricide for a thousand marks. In 1184, this turbulent and ferocious chief,
trusting probably to the protection of Henry, again took up arms, and began to
lay waste and plunder the country with his wonted barbarity. Terms of
accommodation were offered him, which he rejected; but his death in the following
year freed the country from his devastations. Roland, the son of Uchtred,
promptly availed himself of the favourable opportunity afforded by the death of
Gilbert, to obtain possession of the whole province of Galloway. On the 4th of
July, 1185, he defeated the adherents of Gilbert, and slew Gilpatric, their
leader....
This volume has quite detailed genealogical biographies, so it is surprising that
no mention at all of Fergus's supposed marriage to an illegitimate daughter of
Henry I (or any other relationship) is mentioned, particularly, as the Galwegians
seem to have been opposed to all things foreign (i.e. non-Galwegian), which,
surely, would have merited some comment and analysis.
Renia
Stewart Baldwin
wrote:
>Finally, in a previous post, I just off the cuff asked about
>Duncan II, and about the north-england naming pattern seen
>in Fergus's sons. Stewart has already posted about
>something I discovered last night, that Duncan's with
>Ethelreda was of the Earls of Northumberland. The
>chronology of this connection is certainly problematic, as
>Duncan was murdered long before Fergus appears, but their
>son William was a slightly older contemporary, and an
>illegitimate daughter (she could not have been legitimate
>ased on the inheritance pattern) could have been of the
>right age to marry Fergus. This is all pie in the sky
>speculation, but it does give Ken his alternative.
I don't think the chronology for Duncan is all that "problematic". In
fact, it seems more of a problem of you try to add the extra
generation. Duncan's mother was the widow of Thorfinn of Orkney, and
Duncan must therefore have been born after the death of Thorfinn
(exact date uncertain, but unlikely to have been earlier than the late
1050's), so it is unlikely that Duncan was any older than his mid
thirties when he died in 1094. Fergus's son Uchtred was old enough to
witness a charter in 1136. That makes the chronology pretty tight
(but not impossible) if you try to make Uchtred a great-grandson of
Duncan. On the other hand, a daughter born late in Duncan's life (or
posthumously) would be just about the right age to make a feasible
mother for Uchtred.
Stewart Baldwin
royalynx
It appears that I erroneously sent the below to Gen-Med-D in the middle
of the night when I should have sent it to Gen-Med-L. My apologies,
and I am re-submitting it now.
Thanks,
Jack Brown
==========================================================
Andy,
Just read your post advising you are returning to "Lurker" status only
because you have exhausted your resources for prosecuting this thread
through to its conclusion.
What I think we are all hearing is a sigh of frustration (not at all
uncommon when one is "chasing one's ancestors"!) as opposed to an active
conceding of defeat.
Come on, now, you're not a quitter. You've opened up a line of
discussion here that is proving beneficial to a large number of people
who participate in this news group -- as well as to a lot of us who
don't participate but some day probably will do so -- and I note that a
lot of the most admired members of the group (Stewart Baldwin, Todd
Farmerie, MichaelAnne Guido, Renia Simmonds, among others) have all
provided some tasty little morsels for you to pursue.
Now. . .grab hold of those little gems and commence to follow through on
them. Stop for a few minutes and collect your thoughts; make a list of
all the suggestions made thus far; seek out the many volumes mentioned
by all these respondents, and go after some more answers just like a
detective tracking down a maniacal killer who drops clues all over the
landscape. You can do it. . . . . .but it will involve a lot of hard work!
I was hoping I could tell you that some of these various works are
available right there at the University of British Columbia just a few
minutes drive away from you, but unfortunately they aren't. Some of
them are just down Interstate 5 in Seattle at the University of
Washington. But some of those rascals are going to involve even more
work in locating and in securing copies. As an example, today Todd
explained that the Archæologia Cambrensis is not available to him (and
he is right on campus at one of the largest research universities in the
U.S.), and he asked if anyone had access to this. (Incidentally, it is
available at the University of Minnesota, and the University of
Michigan, among other places, and both of these places do provide
"document delivery service" -- for a price -- which simply means that
they will provide you with copies of materials in their library
[providing they do not violate copyright laws and if you assure thm that
you will not do so in using the material] for a price.
But. . .they do have the Scots Peerage there at the UBC Library, and you
already know where to find P. A. Münch's Chronica Regum Manniæ on the
Isle of Man site.
Turton's Plantagenet Ancestry is probably available from amazon.com or
barnesandnoble.com, and several salient points have been mentioned today
from that little jewel.
So don't give up. Take a few days to regroup and collect your
resources and then come back when you feel you are ready to proceed.
BUT DON'T QUIT!
I know we are all pulling for you, and we would all like to see all of
you that are currently working on these leads both individually and
collectively to follow them through.
Jack Brown
roya...@home.com
Todd A. Farmerie
> It appears that I erroneously sent the below to Gen-Med-D in the middle
> of the night when I should have sent it to Gen-Med-L.
It doesn't appear to matter (I got both), except when
subscribing or unsubscribing.
Todd A. Farmerie
ta...@po.cwru.edu
co-Listowner
GEN-MEDIEVAL
ED MANN
--
FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
Regards, Ed Mann mailto:edl...@mail2.lcia.com
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|'94 atx, vibrant white/opal grey, 91k+; 225/55VR-16 Toyo Proxes FZ4s; |
|70mm MAF, K&N, conectomy; '96 brakes; halogen b/u & side lamps, DRLs, |
|xenon headlamp bulbs; Blazer fogs w/ switch mod; |
|SHO Registry (http://www.shoregistry.com) |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------+
References:
Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins of
the Princess of Wales_, [page].
AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
[Pres. # : page].
BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
[page].
F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
Π= Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
[page].
S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat emptor.
WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]
Leslie Mahler
name of Arrald / Arrold?
I only know of two instances.
One is the wife of early New England colonist Rice Cole.
The other was the mother of some citizens of London in the 1630s.
Im hoping that if I trace back the one in London, I might find the
origin of Rice Cole.
I know that the church in Oldbury on Severn, Gloucestershire is
dedicated to a female saint
named Arild, but I havent seen that used as a given name in that area.
Leslie
DavidBotts
Taylor, Keziah b. March 03, 1775
Steele, Keziah b. 1833
Hitchcock, Keziah Sirepton b. March 01, 1857
Graves, Keziah b. Abt. 1825
Butler, Keziah b. WFT Est. 1763-1773
These are all in southern branches of the family.
Dave
Polgara
From: DavidBotts <david...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2000 6:35 AM
Subject: Re: 17th C. Colonial Nicknames (Keziah)
From "20,001 Names for Baby" by Carol McD. Wallace:
On Keziah:
Kezia: [female] Heb[rew] "Cassia." Cassia is the generic name for a vairety
of trees and shrubs, one of which produces cinnamon. One of the three
daughters of Job (along with Jemima; though their existence is mentioned in
the Old Testament, their names are apocryphal). The name was adopted by the
Puritans and brought to the U.S. in the 18th century, when it was popular.
Use has declined gradually since then.
Variations: Kazia, Keziah, Kissie, Kizzie, Kizzy.
Kizzy: Var[iation] Keziah. Adoped enthusiastically by parents after it was
publicized in Alex Haley's "Roots" as a traditional African name.
Spoilsport scholars, however, point out that Keziah and its variants were
common slave names as early as the 18th century.
On Hezekiah:
Hezekiah: [male] Heb[rew] "God gives strength." Old Testament name little
used since the 19th century.
---
I have a copy of the above named book and am happy to do lookups on name
origins. Please reply directly to the address below.
Laurelee Walkey
pol...@bcgrizzly.com
DavidBotts
was
publicized in Alex Haley's "Roots" as a traditional African name. Spoilsport
scholars, however, point out that Keziah and its variants were common slave
names as early as the 18th century.
Ah ha, now Leo's inquiry to me regarding whether the folks I posted were in the
black branches of the Botts family tree starts making alot of sense. As I
noted to Leo, the cousins I posted before were English. I also noted they were
from my side of the family (Virginia) as opposed to my wife's side (New
England, Quakers, etc.)
RE> Puritans and brought to the U.S. in the 18th century, when it was popular.
None of the southern Botts cousins using the name fall into this group - most
of the Virginia cousins run Baptist or Church of Christ.
Dave Botts
Chris Pitt Lewis
<ta...@po.cwru.edu> writes
>I will use this post to address several issues.
>
>First of all, Turton and his sources. While in his index,
>Turton, under Galloway, cites sources as discussed in
>Ronnie's post. However, this is not the citation for the
>specific relationship we are discussing. This is found
>under 'England, William II, illeg. . . .' Here he cites
>both his source and provides a discussion (in Note 49). The
>source is Arch. Camb. 1857. I don't have access to this,
>but perhaps someone can pursue it. In his discussion, he
>indicates that the link between Elizabeth and Henry is
>expressed, with a degree of uncertainty, by Dugdale. This
>notice predates Paul, and is perhaps his source. It also
>suggests the possibility, depending on what Dugdale has to
>say, that the esteemed early genealogist is the origin for
>this assignment. Perhaps being aware ofthe relationship
>between Henry II and Uhtred, he hypothesized the connection
>- and hence this is not based on any kind of ancient
>tradition, but instead just another geneaolist speculating
>based on the kinship statements. Again, I don't have
>access, but I would be interested in exactly what Dugdale
>has to say. Turton's criterion for selecting William over
>Henry is not valid, but he certainly had a source of some
>sort, which only a look at Arch. Camb. will reveal.
>
My local library has the 1857 volume of Archaeologia Cambrensis.
Turton's reference is presumably to an article "A Catalogue of the Kings
of Man, with Contemporary Bishops and English Sovereigns, compiled by
the Rev J G Cumming, MA, FGS", on pp 47-54. It is preceded (pp 45-46) by
a very short note "A Brief Notice of Manx Civil and Ecclesiastical
History", unattributed, but obviously by the same author.
The Catalogue is a chronology of Manx Rulers from 440 to 1755 AD, with
genealogical connections shown. It starts with "440 Mannanan Beg Mac-y
Lheir reigned in Man, a reputed magician", which does not exactly
inspire confidence, and continues with the well known Gwynedd genealogy
from Maelgwn down to and past Merfyn Frych, before embarking on the
Viking Rulers. Turton's source must be the entry for Olaf I, on p 49:
"1111. Olave I surnamed Kleining, being under age, Dopnald M'Tade acts
as regent, and is expelled in 1114. He married Affrica, daughter of
Fergus of Galloway, and granddaughter of William Rufus. He founded
Rushen Abbey 1134."
No sources are given for this or any other statement in the Catalogue,
but the "Brief Notice..." says:
"The following notice is compiled chiefly from the Annals of Ulster, the
Annals of the Four Masters, Rymer's Foedera, the Harleian MSS,
Sacheverell's History of the Isle of Man, the Chronicon Manniae, and
Seacome's History of the House of Stanley."
Which, if any, of these was the source for the statement about William
Rufus?
--
Chris Pitt Lewis