Giron
mara Gonzalez Morejon
Going back to the Girón:
You had qualms .....
"..... I strongly dislike to play the 'devil's advocate'
but as Rodrigo Girón is not identified as Gutiérrez in San Salvador
del Moral the whole seems to be only based in the course of the
employment of mayordomo what I find feeble facing the heraldic
evidence".
about.....
San Salvador del Moral, document XXI. Dated 19 July 1166
>
> A transaction by a Sancha Muñoz:
>
> “Regnante rex Aldefonsus en Castella et rei don Fernando en León: don
> Gutierre en Castro et Pedro Roiz en Astudiello, Diago Munnoz en Amaia,
> compte don Nuno en Avia et en Ferrera et *Rodrigo Girón en Monzón*…”
>
I just found the following quote, not on Rodrigo (Gutiérrez) Girón, but on
his son:
1221, march (Hospital del Rey, Burgos): On a sale by Ferrant González and
his wife Inés and Ferrant Iohannes and his wife María González to the
hospital:
"Regnante rege dompnus Ferrando (....) alferaz curie regis Lop Díaz;
maiordomus curie regis, GONZALO ROIZ GIRON; maior merino Gonzaluo Pedrez de
Arniellas....."
I'll convince you at the end.
Best regards,
Mara
*
*
mara Gonzalez Morejon
Los Orígenes de las Órdenes Militares y la Repoblación de los Territorios de
La Mancha (1150-1259) which includes a full transcript of the donation, made
by Rodrigo Gutiérrez Girón.
You can download it at:
https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=MnFod0VBYTI3N0RIRGc9PQ
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
I have carefully checked all your evidence and made an extensive web
search.
Now I am fully convinced that mayordomo Gonzalo Rodríguez Girón'
father was Rodrigo Gutiérrez and this last one was the first
documented as Girón.
This was not easy as several sites and books, e.g. Dipútacion de
Toledo and the Turism Office of Castilla la Mancha, all had the
Wikipedia data
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borox
Incredily as it looks both are wrong:
Rodrigo Rodríguez (1179) was a bad reading possibly because the
patronymic was abbreviated in the original;
Domingo Rodríguez (1191) was a scribe's error and the original (or the
available reformed document) had Domingo, what was followed by several
authors and can be read in 'Cervantes Virtual' undoubtly the best,
biggest and most reliable spanish library on-line.
Once this question is solved, the problem moves on.
Why this mayordomo mayor Rodrigo Gutiérrez adopted the name Girón?
Salazar y Acha and you made him a son of Gutierre Téllez and this last
one is undoubtely connected with the Laras as he got 1/2 of Aceca in
1166 and the other 1/2 was of a count of Lara.
Now if there was already a Lara connection in the beggining of
heraldry - roughly XII - and Cisneros was then a modest lineage, the
Cisneros 'enxaquetado' charged with Giróns made no sense.
You should concentrate now in Rodrigo Gutiérrez's parents because the
best probability that I can imagine is that he was well a Cisneros and
the Lara connection was cognatic (this would possibly explain the
error of that old genealogy that included a Mayor Nuñez de Lara). If
my wild guess is correct, his father could be a Gutierre Rodríguez.
I can not find out who first used that Cisneros/Girón crest. Always
guessing it could have been Gonzalo Rodríguez shortly after 1216 when
he had the struggle with count Álvar Nuñez de Lara and for that same
reason might have changed any Lara's variation he may have used for
something new; but still the Cisneros must be explained.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 31 Jul, 02:22, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=MnFod0VBY...
M.Sjostrom
more than a month ago, I expressed my doubts that the guy were 'Rodrigo GONZALEZ Giron', airing my suspicion about that patronymic
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-06/1245532349
and at that time, Francisco opposed very much anything else than him being RODRIGO GONZALEZ GIRON....
claiming that the guy is 'so well known'....
So, it took more than a month, but finally Francisco has seen some light.
But, this leads to the inevitable conclusion that Francisco should not be so hasty to spout allegations which may well turn to be untrue.
My view about reliability of his claims, was already then fairly low
and this development has shown that his claims cannot be regarded reliable. because for example they tend to be hasty and often unwarranted.
mara Gonzalez Morejon
<I can not find out who first used that Cisneros/Girón crest. Always
guessing it could have been Gonzalo Rodríguez shortly after 1216 when
he had the struggle with count Álvar Nuñez de Lara and for that same
reason might have changed any Lara's variation he may have used for
something new; but still the Cisneros must be explained.>
......
I don't have the answer yet because I haven't followed all that line, but
here is a clue taken from "Las Behetrías Castellanas" by Carlos Estepa Díez,
Vol. I, page 297
(my translation):
"The Cisneros and Saldaña lineages stem from the Girón lineage. From the
Crónica of Alfonso X we learn about ricoshombres such as *RUY GONZÁLEZ DE
CISNEROS* and Fernán Ruiz de Saldaña (Chapter XXXVI, LII). The former
comes from the large descent of GONZALO RODRÍGUEZ * and the latter could be
the son of Rodrigo Rodríguez who is confirmed as Tenente de Saldaña since
the term "Saldañá" is used in the Crónica(above) to refer to Fernán Ruiz and
Rodrigo Rodríguez, probably his brother" and most likely based on the fact
that his father held this tenencia during the reign of Fernando III".
*The footnote after the name Gonzalo Rodríguez is: The most likely
hypothesis is that Ruy González (de Cisneros) is the son of *Gonzalo
González the brother of Rodrigo Glz Girón*".
Another footnote on the Saldaña, quoting Doc. 561 in Las Huelgas:
"According to a document in 1270, there is a Rodrigo Rodríguez son of
Rodrigo Rodríguez de Saldaña who transacts a sale in Bañuelos de Bureba.
What I have in my database is (as I said, I have not completed documenting
this line, it is what I interpret and have to document further):
1) Gonzalo Rodríguez Girón (+c 1234) + Sancha Rodríguez, among the
children:
2) Rodrigo González Girón (+1256), married to Berenguela López (will get
back to her later). Parents of:
3) Gonzalo González Girón married to Teresa Arias (daughter of Arias Glz
de Quesada and María Froilaz) parents of:
3.1. Gonzalo Rdz, Maestre de Santiago married to Elvira Díaz de Castañeda.
This couple had two sons (at least). One of them was Gonzalo Rdz Girón,
and another one was RODRIGO GLZ DE SAN ROMÁN.
On this last one:
1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): *Roy Glz de San Román* and his wife Elvira reach
an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches in Villacid.
He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz. Mentions as his uncle
Rodrigo González, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher of
María Flórez. I have this Roy Glz de San Román and his wife Elvira, as the
parents of Gonzalo Rdz Girón who married María "La Raposa" Téllez de
Meneses. (Not documented yet).
and
3.2. Rodrigo González Girón (son of Gonzalo Glz Girón and Teresa Arias)who
appears in the Monastery of Benavides (Palencia) on 24 feb 1257, declaring
himself as the son of Gonzalo González, jointly with Doña Mencía, Queen of
Portugal, acting as the executors of the will made by Teresa Arías, give the
monastery the property of Villacid.
The earliest Cisneros I have in my database is:
Arias González de Cisneros who is documented in Huelgas in 1304. He must
have died bef 1325. Married to Mencía de Manzanedo (from the Girón... I have
her as the daughter of Gonzalo Gómez de Manzanedo and Sancha Ibáñez de
Guzmán. Paternal grandparents: Gómez Rodríguez de Manzanedo and Mencía
Pérez. This last Gómez Rodríguez I have as the son of Rodrigo Rodríguez
Girón (son of Rodrigo Gutiérrez Girón and María de Guzmán) and Inés Pérez.
That's the line I mentioned in an earlier thread based on documentation in
Sta. María de la Vega).
Son of Arías and Mencía would be Juan Rodríguez de Cisneros married to
Mencía de Padilla
Now, going back to Berenguela López, and this brings us to the Haros.
In the introduction to collection of charters of Benavides, the author I
believe mistakenly says that Rodrigo González Girón married twice, curiously
enough, his 2 wives would be, Berenguela López de Salcedo as the first wife
and mother of Gonzalo González Girón, who he claims is the daughter of
Sancho García de Salcedo (I don't have him documented)
The second wife, would be Berenguela López de Haro, daughter of Lope
"Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro and Infanta Urraca Alfonso.
I have several reasons for doubting this and believe that both Berenguelas
are one and the same person, and I’m just thinking out loud here:.
Berenguela López de Haro was the sister of Queen Mencía (married to Sancho
II of Portugal).
Why would Mencía López de Haro be one of the executors of Teresa Arias'
will and act jointly with Rodrigo Glz Girón, who according to the author of
the prologue to the Charters of Benavides, would not be the son of Mencía
López de Haro but of a Berenguela López de Salcedo?
Another point, Lope "Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro had a son out of wedlock,
Diego López de Salcedo who is very close to Queen Mencía, his half sister.
He appears very often in documentation, for example in 1255 in Villamayor
de los Montes, confirming as Merino Mayor de Castilla.
In 1257 (Col. Diplo. Riojana) he appears jointly with Mencía again.
In the following page, you can see an interesting article on Mencía with
lots of mentions on Diego López de Salcedo.
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/public/01350542033359287867680/p0000001.htm
Well, I started with the Girón and ended up with the Haros...
Best regards,
Mara
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
If you are right and the Cisneros came from the Giróns - against what
I thought and can be seen in several websites with Cisnero's ancestry
- it is an heraldic case study.
You can see Cisneros
http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/cisneros-family-crest.htm
(just see the coat of arms, do not read anything there)
and Girón
http://www.zazzle.co.uk/giron_family_crest_mug-168913612652791772
When a family comes from one other and adopts new arms, other than
just change colours or disposition, the most usual is to add some new
pieces to the original arms. If you are right, the Cisneros did the
contrary and removed the giróns. For all I know this was very
unexpected - but not impossible as it was much before any regulation -
and by itself motive enough to let people assume that the Giróns came
from the Cisneros and not the contrary.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 31 Jul, 19:16, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/public/01350542033...
M.Sjostrom
there appears to be some sort of tradition that
a nobleman named Diego Guterres were married with Ines Gonzalves Giron, one of the daughters of mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Ruiz Giron, lord of Frechilla and Autillo, by his second marriage with Maria Perez de Vilalobos. [children of that marriage were born in the 1210s-1220s, Ines was born before 1222]
And a tradition that these Diego Guterrez and Ines Giron became ancestors of the great chancellor Ayala.
So, my hypothesis, on basis of onomastical knowledge on how from mid-1200s, ancestral patronymics were inherited in contravention against the actual paternity of the child,
said Diego Guterres and Ines would have been parents of:
this Maria
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270539&tree=LEO
who married into the de Ceballos family
M.Sjostrom
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez Giron (whose son Gonzalvo Roiz flourished in 1257), cannot easily be son of Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron (b bef 1194; d 1256). Patronymic is not agreeable.
There should be a suspicion that Gonzalvo Gonzalvez Giron were actually not at all son of this Autillo branch, because of chronology - is there some real evidence which would make him as son of some of them ?
But, IF Gonzalvo Gonzalvez Giron had been directly a son of the Autillo Girons, he would easier be a younger son of mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Roiz Giron, lord of Frechilla and Autillo. A son born of his second marriage, perhaps born after 1222, is not altogether impossible, though it'd be a stretch.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00115170&tree=LEO
------
taf wrote that
"Moxo suggests that Rodrigo, d. 1256, was followed by nephews Gonzalo (d. 1280) and Ruy Gonzalez (via a brother, Gonzalo Gonzalez), and then Gonzalo (d. 1280) is shown wirh Rodrigo Gonzalez."
Highly likely these successors were not sons, since Moxo has found something to indicate they rather were some sort of nephews. nephew as itself, could be a flexible concept - not necessarily always brother's son.
------
Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron, lord of San Roman (fl 1282), seems to have become the grandfather of:
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00319479&tree=LEO
lord of El Frechoso
M.Sjostrom
CISNEROS
Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros (fl 1304; died bef 1325); married Mantzia Gontsaluis de Manzanedo [mara wrote: daughter of Sancha Ib��ez de Guzman and her husband Gonzalvo Gomez de Manzanedo (fl 1275); himself son of Gomez Rodriguez de Manzanedo (d aft 1275) and Mantzia Peris
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00551065&tree=LEO
Son of Arias and Mantzia:
Juan Rodriguez de Cisneros (early 1300s)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00416278&tree=LEO
HOW ARE THEY RELATED WITH:
Gonzalvo Gomez de Cisneros (? 1350 ?)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00275181&tree=LEO
M.Sjostrom
There's no conceivable way how Rodrigo Gonzalvez, son of Teresa Arias, would be son of any sister of queen Mencia of Portugal.
I think it's better to resign to the idea that the queen Mantzia simply got to be co-executrix as an authoritative (elder) kinswoman (related by affinities and because of some alliances), not that she would have been necessarily a close blood relative herself.
------
is it factually established from contemporary sources, who actually was queen Mencia's biological mother ?
------
whose daughter was that Sancha Ibanez de Guzman (who married Gonzalvo Gomez de Manzanedo, fl 1275, son of: http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00551065&tree=LEO
) ??
what was her kinship with Juan Perez de Guzman, head of the house of Guzman until 1280s ?
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00461282&tree=LEO
---
whose daughter was that Urraca de Guzman (who married Gonzalvo Gomez de Cisneros, possibly in mid-1300s)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00275182&tree=LEO
what was her kinship with Juan Perez de Guzman, head of the house of Guzman until 1280s ?
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00461282&tree=LEO
M.Sjostrom
usually, in old legends, there is a kernel of truth. Too.
When looking at the legend of the Giron family, how they received the honor of the name 'Giron', there's the story of doing something helpful in a battle, and getting there a king's 'reminder material'. This is a nice story, not necessarily true as to all those details, but something of this sort is likely to have occurred.
legends and myths are notorious of mixing up and cinfusing everything which has to do with chronology and dating. So, the year of a battle and identification of a king in that legend should not be trusted too much.
we know that the future mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Guterres was the first to be recorded as bynamed Giron. [if not an earlier record surface.... which is not impossible]
If he really was the first of that byname, then it's a natural assumption that he, as young man, had dome that helpful thing in a battle, and won a king's favor - however fickle such favors are....
For example, in 1157 or 1156, Castilians and Leonese attestedly were fighting against moors in the south (see Almeria and such). Rodrigo would have been around twenty, or a bit younger. And, there was king named Alfonso (Alfonso VII the emperor), as well as also the Portuguese king of that name and the young Aragonese king of that name (although the latter was probably not in battles at that time).
All in all, the necessary ingredients were present. we do not know for sure, but he could have been that recipient of cloth tears....
nice legend, anyway, and probably any clearly more fixed identification will not be forthcoming.
In my opinion, it's pretty unnecessary to project any ancestor of Rodrigo for a potential recipient of that. such would, at worst, mean inventing ancestors.
M.Sjostrom
husband of a sister of the queen Mantzia of Portugal
------------------------------------------
I assume it's recorded that a sister of the queen Mantzia of Portugal married a nobleman named Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
However, is there something which fixes this Rodrigo Gonzalvez as having been that mayordomo-mayor of Castile, Rodrigo Gonzalvez (b bef 1194; dc 1256) whose earlier wife seemingly had been Maria Froilas
?????
There was another Rodrigo Gonzalvez at the same time, too - one who seemingly was close and possibly agnatic kinsman of the namesake, thusly potential to carry the Giron arms.
This was Rodrigo Gonzalvez, son of Teresa Arias (d bef 1257) and the late Gonzalvo Gonzalvez.
Seeing that this Rodrigo was flourishing (as executor of his mother's will) in 1257, and even together with queen Mantzia of Portugal - what if it was this Rodrigo who was husband of Mantzia's one sister ?
and that Mantzia's role as co-executrix came from the testator having chosen her designated daughter-in-law's elder sister, who was relatively mighty.
M.Sjostrom
Maria Froilas
=========
in the orbit of the Giron of Autillo family
I read that a lady named Maria Froilas, was married with Arias Gonzalvez (de Quesada, whom Portuguese make Quijada/Quixada)
she had at least one kid, daughter Teresa Arias (de Quesada), died in or before 1257, and adult possibly already in 1230s.
a Maria Froilas married (as first wife) Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron (b bef 1194, d February 1256), mayordomo-mayor of Castile, lord of Autillo etc. Maria Froilas deceased several years before her (that) husband, possibly in 1240s or even tad earlier.
This Maria Froilas seems to been daughter of count Fruela Ramirez (d aft 1202), of the Cifontes comital lineage, and his second wife countess Sanzia Fernandez, and she quite possibly born around 1200 or a bit earlier
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139807&tree=LEO
Maria Froilas' brother married mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo's sister, I gather = another Giron, Aldonza Rodriguez de Autillo.
Teresa Arias (d bef 1257), as explained above, daughter of Maria Froilas, was married with a Gonzalvo Gonzalvez, who somehow belonged to the Giron (he possibly was a younger brother of the abovenamed Rodrigo Gonzalvez the mayordomo-mayor).
Their children attestedly included:
another Rodrigo Gonzalvez (Giron) - whom I suspect married Berenguela Lupis of Biskaia
and Gonzalvo Rodriguez (Giron) - who would possibly been the one married with Elvira Dias de Castanheda
Now, my thought is that
Maria Froilas here was one and same person.
that Arias Gonzalvez was her first husband, deceased probably before 1220s
and that Rodrigo Gonzalvez the mayordomo-mayor was her second husband
That her daughter of her first marriage got married to her second husband's kinsman (possibly younger brother).
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
I strongly advise advise you to counter check Carlos Estepa Diéz on
Cisneros stem from Girón. Not impossible but really it would be like
re-writing history.
I am carefully evaluating your data and there is something unexpected
in a Girón fathering Manzanedos. I have to look more carefully Sánchez
de Mora but again it seems that one Girón was conflated with one
Salvadores/Manzanedo.
« Now, going back to Berenguela López, and this brings us to the
Haros.
In the introduction to collection of charters of Benavides, the
author I
believe mistakenly says that Rodrigo González Girón married twice,
curiously
enough, his 2 wives would be, Berenguela López de Salcedo as the
first wife
and mother of Gonzalo González Girón, who he claims is the daughter of
Sancho García de Salcedo (I don't have him documented)
The second wife, would be Berenguela López de Haro, daughter of Lope
"Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro and Infanta Urraca Alfonso.
I have several reasons for doubting this and believe that both
Berenguelas
are one and the same person, and I’m just thinking out loud here: ...
»
Cawley's MedLands and the data I already had says Gonzalo married 3
times:
1 - María Fróilaz
2- Berenguela López (de Haro)
3- Teresa López (de Haro), sister of the above.
I have never seen anything about a Salcedo and considering that
Berenguela was the mother of Ines Rodríguez who married infante Felipe
de Castilla y León I find difficult to accept a Salcedo.
About María Fróilaz, Cawley have her daughter of count Froila Ramírez
and 2th wife countess Sancha Rodríguez. It is not clear in Cawley but
I have María as sister of Ramiro Fróilaz married to Aldonza González
(Girón) so brother and sister married to sister and brother.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 31 Jul, 19:16, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/public/01350542033...
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
1 - María Fróilaz
2- Teresa López (de Haro)
3- Berenguela López (de Haro), sister of the above.
And Teresa is the mother of Ines.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 3 Ago, 13:52, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
mara Gonzalez Morejon
If you go to this page
http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/articulo?codigo=2489971
You can download the Colección Diplomática del Real Monasterio de Sta. María
de Benavides, the source I used on the two Berenguelas. The charters start
in page 25 of the PDF file. But it is also interesting to read the first
part.
I can't answer all your questions now because I'm busy with work, but
promise to get back. Meanwhile, I sent something yesterday for posting
under Girón, but it hasn't appeared yet. Let's see if it does before I get
back to you and maybe it can answer some of your questions.
Regards,
Mara
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
I have now material to study - I have downloaded all your material and
some more - for a couple of weeks.
A- "1233.06.05 (Facta carta Harca, era M.CC.LXXI, dominica prima in
mense junii)
Escritura otorgada por Gonzalo González Girón, canciller mayor de San
Fernando, y doña Teresa Arias Quijada, su mujer, por la que venden
todos los bienes que tienen en Viliella del Rey a la Orden de San
Juan. (Archivo de Uclés).
M-8, fº 66 y 66 v."
This couple is the same that in the same year appears in a "Carta de
permuta" with the same Order (unless it is the same deed diferently
identified).
This couple is also the same that are parents of don Simon Girón de
Cisneros, bishop of Siguenza 1258.
So, M. Sjostrom was right and
« 2) Rodrigo González Girón (+1256), married to Berenguela López
(will get
back to her later). Parents of:
3) Gonzalo González Girón married to Teresa Arias (daughter of Arias
Glz
de Quesada and María Froilaz) parents of:
3.1. Gonzalo Rdz, Maestre de Santiago married to Elvira Díaz de
Castañeda. »
is not possible chronologically and patronymics also look wrong.
Subject to correction I would say that 3) is a Rodrigo González and
Teresa Arias can an error, can be another Teresa Arias (not de
Quesada) or, in the limit, could be the same, married twice to two
relatives (not brothers).
A have dismissed the hypothesis of a bad reading of Gonzalo for
Rodrigo or vice-versa because a master of Saint James and a bishop of
Siguenza would then be acquainted as brothers what is not the case.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 3 Ago, 14:25, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
M.Sjostrom
origin of 'Cisneros':
In my opinion, it is waste of time to try to find Cisneros in the roots of the first attested 'Giron', mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Guterres (fl c1166; born in est 1140; dc 1194).
His parents (the Guterre ones) are known by some good likelihood. And there's no knowledge visible that they had something to do with Cisneros.... Anyway, such generations would not even yet be epoch when heraldry came to be established in Iberia.
Instead, my hypothesis is that Cisneros were a place too: an estate, fief, lordship, which seemingly belonged to some branch or to some kinsmen of the Giron of Autillo clan.
That property then -I presume, in later generations- gave its name to some branch descending from its such owners.
Some members of such a branch, would possibly have adopted the heraldic pattern then known as the Cisneros.
Sometimes a pattern or a figure came to use on basis of the meaning of a placename. Placenames sometimes mean things which can be expressed as pictures.
Cisneros looks to been in some use in the 'branch', issue, of Grand Chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez (fl 1233), husband of Teresa Arias.
I would make assumptions, working hypotheses, that bishop Simon (his real name could etymologically been Xemen = 'Jimeno'), and ricohombre Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros (temp. Alfonso X), and Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros [fl 1304] (plus his descendants, seemingly such as Gonzalvo Gomez de Cisneros), would descend from grand chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez and his wife Teresa Arias.
M.Sjostrom
the elusive Gonzalvo Gonzalvez (fl 1233)
==========================
firstly, I note that there are two grand chancellors from the believed orbit of the Giron clan:
Rodrigo Rodriguez, lord of Lerones - grand chancellor in c1215 (reign of Enrique I)
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez - mentioned as grand chancellor in 1233
I note that Rodrigo Gonzalvez, (eldest) son of the longtime mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Rodriguez Giron, lord of Frecilla and Autillo, becomes mayordomo-mayor from c1238.
However, he should have been the elder son.
Therefore I am having some uneasiness about an idea that Gonzalvo Gonzalvez, grand chancellor already in 1233 and possibly earlier, would have been his younger brother.
When in those days, family members filled positions in royal service, it was customary for elder brother to get promoted earlier.
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez, a man whose name was the same as his father's (whomever the father was), is very typically in that culture a younger son of somebody. It was somewhat untypical in that culture to name any of eldest sons as father's namesake, particularly when the father survived.
These reasons make me to question whether this Gonzalvo Gonzalvez could be son of any of the Autillo Giron.
----------------------
Any proposition that Gonzalvo Gonzalvez (fl 1233) could have been son of mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Rodriguez Giron, lord of Frechilla and Autillo, is imo crushed by the contemporary documentation from the year 1222, where the mayordomo-mayor lists apparently ALL his surviving children as of 1222:
Cathedral of Burgos, 8 May 1222: Gonzalo Ruiz, mayordomo of the King, jointly with his children, ratifies the donation made to the Cathedral of
Palencia, the donation of a hospital in the San Zoilo de Carrion district,
mentioning the children by each of his wives: With Sancha Roiz: Rodrigo, Teresa, with the approval of her husband Ruy Gonzalez (Ceballos), Mar�a, with the approval of her husband Guillen Perez, Aldonza, with the approval of her husband Ramiro Froilas, and Elvira, Sancha and Brigida;
with Marquesa: Pedro, Mu�o, Nu�o, Mar�a, Elenor, Ines, Mayor.
If the transcipt can be relied on, there is no Gonzalvo among his children in 1222. So, a Gonzalvo who was adult in 1233, cannot be his son, in light of this contemporary testimony....
The ptactically only explanation to allow for a son Gonzalvo of his, would be if NOT all of his children were in that document. But that would be quite an unusual thing - seeing that the presence or approval of all the children was actually one of intentions and even validity requirements of such a donation.
-----------------------------
this leaves us with a Gonzalvo Gonzalves, grand chancellor, who would not fit to any spot in the Giron family tree.
This Gonzalvo Gonzalvez' issue are presumed to have held Cisneros.
taf
> there appears to be some sort of tradition that
> And a tradition that these Diego Guterrez and InesGironbecame ancestors of the great chancellor Ayala.
>
> So, my hypothesis, on basis of onomastical knowledge on how from mid-1200s, ancestral patronymics were inherited in contravention against the actual paternity of the child,
>
> said Diego Guterres and Ines would have been parents of:
> who married into the deCeballosfamily
On what basis do you connect this Diego Gutierrez with Maria's
Caviedes family? Most traditional pedigrees call her Fernandez,
although these are probably worthless.
taf
M.Sjostrom
Cisneros 'branch'
=============
my current outline of this lineage:
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez, grand chancellor of Castile (mentioned in 1233); married Teresa Arias de Quesada (mentioned in 1233; d bef 1257); herself daughter of Arias Gonzalvez and his wife Maria Froilas de Cifontes; herself daughter of Sancha Fernandez de Tovar and her husband Count Froila Ramirez.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139808&tree=LEO
Their children included:
1 Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros, ricohombre (mentioned in 1257; c1280); married Berenguela Lupis de Biskaia (born in est 1230s); herself one of younger daughters of Urraca Alfonsez de Leon and and her husband Loupe Didakis, sovereign of Biskaia.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00417962&tree=LEO
Their son could have been:
1.3 Arias Rodriguez de Cisneros (fl 1304), whose son would have been:
1.3.2 Gonzalvo Gomez de Cisneros (fl mid-1300s)
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00275181&tree=LEO
2 Xemen 'Simon' Gonzalvez de Cisneros, bishop
3 Gonzalvo Rodriguez [attested by the Lord of San Roman, his son, in 1282 listing his root to his grandmother Teresa Arias].
I HAVE A SUSPICION THAT HIS WIFE (whomever it were, possibly a daughter of mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez) COULD HAVE BROUGHT THE GIRON TO THEIR ISSUE....
without any evidence, a hypothesis that the wife were daughter of http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00026704&tree=LEO
His children included:
3.2 Rodrigo Gonzalvez de San Roman (mentioned in 1282); married Elvira Dias de Castanheda (mentioned in 1282); herself sister of Pedro Dias de Castanheda.
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00458004&tree=LEO
Their children included:
3.2.1 Gonzalvo Rodriguez de El Frechoso (mentioned in 1330); married Maria Telles de Menezes; herself seemingly paternal granddaughter of Gonzalvo Anes de Menezes de Albuquerque, and his wife Urraca Fernandes de Limia
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00461577&tree=LEO
* their descendant (son?) was Alfonso Telles Giron, lord of El Frechoso
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00319479&tree=LEO
I think he (who is anyway traditionally held to been descendant) could have been their son, because of not making too tight a chronology, and because Maria's father was Afonso Teles de Menezes de Albuquerque - it was quite customary to name a boy for the maternal grandfather.
4 Maria Gonzalvez
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00366234&tree=LEO
married Alvar Perez de Guzman
---------------------------------
the practical impossibility that Gonzalvo Gonzalvez could have been son of the Giron of Autillo family, makes me ask, where is it documented WHICH generations (and persons) of this lineage used Giron heraldry (and which are not attested as having held it).
On the other hand, there's my hypothesis that Teresa Arias would have been stepdaughter of mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez (d 1256), and there's the possibility that Rodrigo whose own lineage would been getting extinct (at least in male line), his heraldry would have been taken into use in the family of his stepdaughter and her husband Gonzalvo Gonzalvez.
M.Sjostrom
Todd: "On what basis do you connect this Diego Gutierrez with Maria's Caviedes family? Most traditional pedigrees call her Fernandez, although these are probably worthless. "
Chiefly because Maria's son got the name Diego Guterres
(he was Diego Guterres de Ceballos, admiral)
and that combination, 'Diego Guterres', has no earlier bearer in the paternal roots as I have them reconstrued.
Plus, 'Guterres' went against the boy's own father's name, which is known as attested (if I am not mistaken), and it was not Guterre.
Cognoscenti know that in late 1200s, just when the patronymic system has broken down, those were NOT given without a precise namesake earlier in some root. These were certainly not 'invented' for first-time use against the name of the boy's own father; only if there was an earlier namesake, it could go against the father's.
The Ceballos pedigree, as I have it reconstrued, does not even have a Guterre..... so, a Diego Guterres is so unlikely there. Thus, look at the maternal root.
It was almost customary that the maternal grandfather got his namesake in those days.
-----
Then, an additional point is that some sort of tradition that indeed a nobleman named Diego Guterres were married with Ines Gonzalves Giron.
And seemingly, the grand chancellor Ayala wrote (or was it from him?) some century and so later that his ancestors included that Diego Guterrez and Ines Gonzalvez Giron.
-----
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00270539&tree=LEO
taf
> Todd: "On what basis do you connect this Diego Gutierrez with Maria's Caviedes family? Most traditional pedigrees call her Fernandez, although these are probably worthless. "
>
> Chiefly because Maria's son got the name Diego Guterres
> (he was Diego Guterres de Ceballos, admiral)
> and that combination, 'Diego Guterres', has no earlier bearer in the paternal roots as I have them reconstrued.
So we invent such a person to be his maternal grandfather?
> Cognoscenti know that in late 1200s, just when the patronymic system has broken down, those were NOT given without a precise namesake earlier in some root. These were certainly not 'invented' for first-time use against the name of the boy's own father; only if there was an earlier namesake, it could go against the father's.
>
Not entirely true, but a good starting point.
> The Ceballos pedigree, as I have it reconstrued, does not even have a Guterre..... so, a Diego Guterres is so unlikely there. Thus, look at the maternal root.
>
Why not the paternal grandmother's family?
> It was almost customary that the maternal grandfather got his namesake in those days.
>
No, not really.
> Then, an additional point is that some sort of tradition that indeed a nobleman named Diego Guterres were married with Ines Gonzalves Giron.
> And seemingly, the grand chancellor Ayala wrote (or was it from him?) some century and so later that his ancestors included that Diego Guterrez and Ines Gonzalvez Giron.
>
No, his genealogy says that Ines Gonzalez de Giron married Gutier
Diaz. Do you have any evidence that any Diego Gutierrez existed in
Caviedes, prior to the Admiral himself?
Yes, the onomastics are a puzzle, but you can't just invent people
like this.
taf
M.Sjostrom
I think Antolina was born too early to be able to been daughter of Ines Giron. At least the chronology would be tight, not a promising thing - it shouldn't be expected that always (over two or more generations), eldest child continued the lineage by having kid at the age of 15 or 16.
Ines was born before 1222, but her parents married only in the previous decade. Ines had seemingly two elder sisters (and some brithers) who were born of that marriage. c1218 could be a good pinpoint for Ines' birth year.
Antolina's son, Ruy Gonzalvez de Cevallos, must been born in mid-1200s (at latest). YOu can check when he started to be active adult.
M.Sjostrom
the elusive Gonzalvo Gonzalvez
the Cisneros 'branch'
-------------------------------
actually, could the merino mayor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez de Zavalos (fl 1205-1226) be the same person as the 1233 grand chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez ???
* the grand chancellor was married with Teresa Arias, who likely was stepdaughter of the 'last' Giron, Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
* Gonzalvo Gonzalvez was merino mayor 1225-26
* is it known in any documentation what was name of merino-mayor's wife - if he had one (or several)
About the Merino Mayor of this name (Mara collected):
1205 (Aguilar de Campoo): "Gonzaluo Gonzalues de Zaualos" confirms a sale
made by Diego G�mez.
1216, julio (Las Huelgas, Burgos): "Gundissaluis Gundissalui de
�auallos" confirms sale made by Count Fernando.
1225, mayo 25 (Villamayor de Trevi�o): Confirms as Merino Mayor.
1226, febrero (Las Huelgas, Burgos): Confirma "Go�aluo Go�alues de Cauallos,
merino mayor en Castiella". (held this post in 1225 and 1226)
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
these Giróns for some time.
I am convinced that Cisneros has been a lordship of this family and
that they used the Cisneros crest but were never mentioned as Cisneros
as all this was in a time that only given name and patronymic were
used. Then the mayordomo mayor Rodrigo Gutiérrez, was for the first
time mentioned as Girón.
I find plausible that he or even his father were called something like
'el do los Girónes' as soon as the first Cisneros crest was charged
with the 3 giróns and I believe in the veracity of the legend even if
the details and the dates (Sagraja 1086 or La Sagra much later are
undetermined). Once it is impossible that count Rodrigo González who
supposedely went to Palestine 1134-1136 was the count of Lara, I
believe that the count who repopulate Ciudad Rodrigo was from this
family, elevated to count when he received the tenency of Toledo but
not necessary in the agnatic line; that is, when the Giróns claimed
the episode it was referred to an oncle - originary a 2nd or 3rd son -
and not to a grandfather.
The kee in this question is the identification of the legendary count
Rodrigo González with the tenente de Toledo, commonly attributed to
the count of Lara. I do not believe that it was the Lara. I have read
Reilly's Alfonso VII and the documents only refer Rodrigo González;
all the rest is interpretation. Reilly, 'grosso modo' says that
Alfonso VII was always carefull with the ambitions of the Laras who by
their origins, power and marriages were too close to the throne.
Nevertheless, due to the difficult military situation in Toledo was
forced to use that great warrior - the count of Lara - but as soon as
the military situation was more stable, dismissed his services.
As we say in Portugal this is a story very badly narrated. If Alfonso
VII was afraid of the Laras - with good reason - he would never give
them the tenency of Toledo and the formidable military power and
prestige associated. But if he did and later dismissised the count, it
is unthinkable that they would part in good terms and the count
continued to held other not so important tenencies. Also the
privileges confirmed by Rodrigo signing immediately after the prelates
do not seem to go with Alfonso's dreads.
One 2nd or 3rd son who did a good job in Duero, kept a few years with
the court and is given the tenency of Toledo where he proves not very
capable, found himself removed and with or without reason, felt
himself aggrieved and left to Palestine, make much more sense.
So it makes no sense to say that the Cisneros stem from the Giróns. In
heraldics, as expected, was the contrary; in surnames Girón was before
but in property, Cisneros was some centuries older than the 'Girona'
was so named.
I will write about another particular point but, for clearness, in
another post.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 3 Ago, 14:25, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
I have looked at the 'Colección Diplomática del Real Monasterio de
Sta. María de Benavides' and found that the piece about Berenguela
López de Salcedo is from Jerónimo Gudiel.
This is the same jump of 3 generations that is seen in 'Nobiliário do
Conde D. Pedro' as Berenguela López de Salcedo married Rodrigo
González Girón, son of Gonzalo Ruiz Girón and Elvira Diáz de Castañeda
(I did not confirmed this but it is from Salazar y Castro).
Now about Gonzalo Gonzálvez Girón, married to Teresa Arias.
> > 2) Rodrigo González Girón (+1256), married to Berenguela López (will get back to her later). Parents of:
> > 3) Gonzalo González Girón married to Teresa Arias (daughter of Arias Glz de Quesada and María Froilaz) parents of:
> > 3.1. Gonzalo Rdz, Maestre de Santiago married to Elvira Díaz de Castañeda.
As I told you before this does not seem possible.
In several websites - unsufficiently sourced - nr. 3 becomes Rodrigo
what makes patronymics acceptable.
However Gonzalo González seems undeniable for those deeds with the
Order of San Juán in 1233.
And, from the data you have posted:
«1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): *Roy Glz de San Román* and his wife Elvira
reach an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches
in Villacid. He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz.
Mentions as his uncle
Rodrigo González, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher
of María Flórez. »
If he is a son of Gonzalo Ruiz, this Gonzalo Ruiz can not be other -
trust me here - than the mayordomo mayor, señor de Frecilla, Cisneros
y Autillo (d. bef. 1234).
This was accepted by some people before - I do not mean M. Sjostrom
who did put the hypothesis to reject it I could not understand why -
as it is seen in some websites. For instance, one where all the other
data seems correct even if incomplete.
It follows Gonzalo Argote de Molina (1549-1596):
« XI. Gonzalo Ruiz de Girón. Señor de Cisneros. Mayordomo de la curia
del rey. Contrae 1º matrimonio con Sancha Rodríguez de Lara, hija de
Rodrigo Rodríguez de Lara y de Elvira García. Contrae 2º matrimonio
con Marquesa Pérez, otorgando escritura de arras el 13 de mayo de
1213. Fallece en 1234.
Gonzalo y Sancha son padres de:
1. Rodrigo González Girón. Contrae 1º matrimonio con María
Froilaz, hija del conde Fruela Ramírez y de doña Sancha. Contrae 2º
matrimonio con Teresa López de Haro, hija de Lope Díaz de Haro, señor
de Vizcaya. Contrae 3º matrimonio con Berenguela López de Haro,
hermana de la anterior. Fallece en 1256.
2. Gonzalo González (que sigue en XII)
3. Teresa González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Ruy González de
Ceballos.
4. Aldonza González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Ramiro Frolaz.
5. María González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Guillén Pérez de
Guzmán, señor de Vecilla, hijo de Pedro Ruiz de Guzmán y de Urraca
Díaz.
6. Elvira González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Joao Alonso
Téllez de Meneses, señor de Albuquerque.
7. Sancha González Girón.
8. Brígida González Girón.
XII. Gonzalo González de Girón. Señor de Cisneros. Contrae
matrimonio con Teresa Arias de Quijada. Fallece en 1258. Son padres
de:
1. Ruy González de Cisneros.
2. Gonzalo Ruiz de Girón (que sigue en XIII)
3. Berenguela González Girón. Contrae matrimonio con Lope de
Haro, hijo de Lope Díaz de Haro, 11º señor de Vizcaya. »
The obvious problem is that deed of 1222 where all children of both
marriages are listed and there is no Gonzalo González.
If he is granting in 1233 he can not be son of Marquesa and my only
possible conclusion is that when the deed of 1222 was copied the
scribe forgot him. It is not possible to find another son of a Gonzalo
Ruiz that inherited Cisneros.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 31 Jul, 23:18, Francisco Tavares de Almeida
<francisco.tavaresdealme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well Mara, now you have turned my head upside down.
>
> If you are right and the Cisneros came from the Giróns - against what
> I thought and can be seen in several websites with Cisnero's ancestry
> - it is an heraldic case study.
>
> You can see Cisneroshttp://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp.fc/qx/cisneros-family-crest.htm
> (just see the coat of arms, do not read anything there)
> and Girónhttp://www.zazzle.co.uk/giron_family_crest_mug-168913612652791772
M.Sjostrom
* �1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): Roy Glz de San Rom�n and his wife Elvira reach an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches in Villacid. He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz. Mentions as his uncle Rodrigo Gonz�lez, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher of Mar�a Fl�rez.�
Francisco writes: "If he is a son of Gonzalo Ruiz, this Gonzalo Ruiz can not be other - trust me here - than the mayordomo mayor, se�or de Frecilla, Cisneros y Autillo (d. bef. 1234). "
NOPE. No. This certainly cannot be trusted at all.
a) since the guy, who is son of said Gonzalvo Ruiz, reports simultaneously that his grandmother is Teresa Arias, daughter of Maria F (= Maria Froilas de Cifontes),
therefore the Gonzalvo Ruiz cannot be the mayordomo-mayor (b est 1160s; dc 1234, fl 1191...) of that name, because the mayordomo-mayor's mother had not been Teresa Arias (instead it was Maria, reconstrued to be Maria Rodriguez de Guzman; herself daughter of Maiora Didakis of Orozko)
and there is no other plausible way how Teresa Arias (fl 1233, m Gonzalvo Gonzalvez the grand chancellor) could be the grandmother, since such would involve an extra marriage of the elderly mayordomo-mayor (dc 1234) with daughter of a couple who seemingly themselves were having childen in 1230s but not essentially earlier, and one of such children, born in c1230s and not yet even a teenager, could not conceivable become pregnant by a man who deceases in c1234.
b) his grandmother Teresa Arias cannot been born earlier than the 1210s. Because Maria Froilas was not born before 1190s. Teresa Arias' grandson (which is a thing he reports himself to be) cannot be born before c1250, which is a date when a man who deceased before 1234, cannot be siring.
[my estimate is that actually Rodrigo Gonzalvez de San Roman was born in est 1260s]
all in all,
It is so certain that the mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Rodriguez de Autillo (dc 1234) cannot be the father of a man whose grandmother was Teresa Arias.
----
because he reports that his grandmother is Teresa Arias, then his parent (father) is a child of Teresa Arias. Teresa Arias produced children with her attested husband, grand chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez.
Teresa Arias' one son attestedly was a different Rodrigo Gonzalvez (fl 1257) [whom I think got his name in honor of his step-grandfather, the 1238 and so forth mayordomo-mayor], and the guy mentions so-named uncle, so this fits.
So, in principle it suffices that it were a daughter of Teresa who became the de San Roman's parent. also this means that Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros were his uncle, maternal uncle in that case.
But, indications favor that the parent were a male,
Teresa's other son, a Gonzalvo - who could have gotten his deviate patronymic (Gonzalvo Rodriguez) so that the name as whole was given in honor of the (possibly already deceased) step-great-grandfather, the mayordomo-mayor of that name, de Autillo.
---
there is not yet any near-contemporary testimony that mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron (d Feb 1256) ever had an adulthood-reaching son.
Instead, various and sundry literature has vaguely admitted that his male successors were some sort of collaterals. Moxo uses the vague term, nephews.
My hypothesis: the (elderly) chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez deceased already in about late 1230s, and left his young wife (Teresa) and a bunch of kids. Their care devolved to the sonless mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron, Teresa's stepfather - who started to treat the boys as 'nephews' or 'grandsons', though they were not genetically closely related at all.
M.Sjostrom
Gonzalo Argote de Molina has made a surprisingly good account of the family, seeing how garbled usually were the products of genealogies of 1500s, 1600s and 1700s.... Still, the relatively estimable Argote gives also some points which imo are bullshit.
I pinpoint particularly following bullshit points:
1 Sancha Rodr�guez, first wife of the mayordomo-mayor, was not de Lara; there never existed that Rodrigo Rodriguez de Lara.
2 I doubt that Berenguela Lupis actually were wife of that Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
This should be digged further, contemporary documentation to reveal in what conjunctions this Berenguela Lupis appears. She could easier been wife of that mayordomo-mayor's foster son, Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros (b est 1230; d perhaps about 1280).
3 Gonzalvo Gonzalvez would not been son of Sancha Rodriguez and mayordomo-mayor Gonzalvo Rodriguez - because he is not mentioned at all in the 1222 grant document.
4 Guillen de Guzman's mother was NO Urraka.
5 Elvira Gonz�lvez Gir�n, a nun in 1222, was all too old to marry any
"Joao Alonso T�llez de Meneses, se�or de Albuquerque", if that represents the generation after the Portuguese bastardess Tarexa Santxez. Because Tarexa Santxez cannot have born any of her Menezes children before 1211, and likely bore them only in the 1220s.
We should know, from an earlier Giron document of 1190s, that there's the Elvira who married Menezes (Tarexa santxez' husband as his earlier wife).
she was clearly Elvira Rodriguez, not Elvira gonzalvez.
Thusly all Elviras in following generations of Girons to allegedly marry a Menezes, could be presumed to been mix-ups from that earlier, authentic Elvira Rodriguez Giron.
This means that we can leave this Elvira Gonzalvez to continue with her attested vocation in the nunnery, a thing which should anyway not proposed to have an abrupt end of getting married, without a very good contemporary proof of such. Argote, as good as he actually imo is, however is NO contemporary source.
I have an indication that
* Joao Afonso de Menezes, lord of Albuquerque, would have married a Berenguela Giron (whom I think were widow of a Biskaia cadet son) - not 'Elvira'
* his apparent brother, Afonso 'ticao' de Menezes, one of heirs of Albuquerque, in reality married Mayor Gonzalvez Giron - not 'Elvira'
This should be digged further, contemporary documentation to reveal in what conjunctions any Berenguela 'Giron' appears, either in Basque regions, in Extremadura and possibly in Portugal.
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
> * «1282, sept. 1 (Benavides): Roy Glz de San Román and his wife Elvira reach an agreement with the monastery in connection with the churches in Villacid. He declares that he is the son of Gonzalo Roiz. Mentions as his uncle Rodrigo González, mentions his grandmother Teresa Arias as the daugher of María Flórez.»
>
> Francisco writes: "If he is a son of Gonzalo Ruiz, this Gonzalo Ruiz can not be other - trust me here - than the mayordomo mayor, señor de Frecilla, Cisneros y Autillo (d. bef. 1234). "
>
> NOPE. No. This certainly cannot be trusted at all.
>
> a) since the guy, who is son of said Gonzalvo Ruiz, reports simultaneously that his grandmother is Teresa Arias, daughter of Maria F (= Maria Froilas de Cifontes),
You are right of course. I have jumped one generation and Gonzalo
González, the grand chancellor was meant to be the son of Gonzalo
Ruiz, mayordomo mayor (d. bef. 1234) in spite of the deed of 1222 as I
wrote.
Even so I realise now that it is not possible and maybe I will have to
stick to Salazar y Castro in _Historia Genealogica de la Casa de
Mendoza_ Tomo I, page 20 concatenated with _Historia Genealogica de la
Casa de Lara_ Tomo IV, libro XVIII, Capitulo II, paginas 259-260 what
is a very last resort as it implies a marriage between nephew and aunt
and an necessarily older aunt.
Anyhow, to justify the course of the lordship or property of Cisneros
something queer took place.
Btw, your hypothesis of the wife who brought the Girón to that Cisnero
line is not taking into account that bishop Simon is many times
identified as Simón Girón de Cisneros and he could not get the Girón
from a sister-in-law.
Regards,
Francisco
Portugal
M.Sjostrom
Simon (Xemen) could get the Giron from his mother's stepfather, i.e step-grandfather, who quite possibly was their fosterer.
M.Sjostrom
I got apprised of a citation that
in 1156, Joao Afonso Telles de Menezes de Alburquerque (whom I hear was son of Alfonso Telles de Menezes, lord of Albuquerque, and his second wife Tarexa Santxez de Portugal)
together with (his wife) Berenguela Gonzalvez
granted to Gonzalvo Yez Coronel the village of Villavelasco.
Can anybody confirm this documentation and its essential contents about the marriage ?
M.Sjostrom
I got touch of a citation that
M.Sjostrom
History of genealogy is full of frustrated and stupid attempts to put people to the same agnatic stem. This has been almost like a mental epidemy among many genealogists. To shoehorn families to an agnatic descent.
Because, to some, the agnatic descent is so important and overriding concern.
They have not taken into account that many cultures have allowed also females to inherit the family heritage, in some circumstances.
-----
In my opinion, the attempts to make the grand chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez (de Cisneros) as an agnate of the Giron of Autillo family, are just this sort of shoehorning to agnatic stem, and should be discarded.
He might have been some sort of agnate, or kinsman, of the Giron of Autillo. Such as, a cousin or something. agnatic. Or cognatic. We do not know. But not necessarily.
however he does not fit to be SON of any of the Giron males without a much-stretching violence against contemporary records and known patterns.
---
He can live in genealogies without a forced filiation to some of Autillo.
After all, his (or actually his sons') belonging to the Giron heraldry, is explicable by his wife Teresa Arias being Giron's stepdaughter.
Let me guess: there would be no contemporary testimony that this Gonzalvo Gonzalvez actually biore Giron heraldry, nor contemporary of *him* being called ever Giron...
----------------
about Cisneros: it might be that Cisneros never was a property of Girons of Autillo and Torremormojos,
instead Cisneros could been this Gonzalvo Gonzalvez' own inheritance, holding.
Or, IF Cisneros belonged to the genuine Autillo Girons at some stage, then:
it just might be that Cisneros was given as dowry to Teresa arias by her stepfather.
Or, that Teresa's sons as step-grandsons of the last Giron of Autillo, received it as some sort of legacy - for example, by testamentary disposition or somesuch.
On the other hand, if Cisneros did not belong to the Autillo Girons originally, but belonged to Gonzalvo Gonzalvez; then, Rodrigo Gonzalvez of Autillo may have held its administration in say 1250s and 1240s, as some kind of guardian of its heirs, who were his step-grandsons anyway.
This may have lead to a mention somewhere (in such a timing) that the lord of Autillo also held Cisneros.
mara Gonzalez Morejon
from the keyboard as much as possible and meanwhile will try to find more
contemporary sources and get back on this subject.Regards,
Mara
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
He could have died before 1325 (Mara) or before 1312 (an article on
his son Juán Ruiz).
Anyhow he was arrested in 1280 (disaster of Moclín) and stayed in
muslim hands (Alcalá el Real or Alcalá de Henares) for 25 years (this
was 1305 from an important privilege where he confirmed but Mara found
one before of 1304) so not 25 years but 24 or something near that.
In Alcalá he fathered 6 illegitimous sons (some delicious details
about it) 2 of them almost certainly dead before they reached 18 years
and one born from ca. 1295/96 (not 30 in 28.6.1321) one, the youngest,
born ca. 1299 (19 years old in 12.6.1318); the other two nearly aged.
After he was released and returned to castilian lands, married Mencia
de Manzanedo and had more children, at least:
1.Juan Rodríguez de Cisneros, who was head of the family and fought in
Salado (30.10.1340).
2.Gonzalo Rodríguez de Cisneros 'el doncel de Palencia'.
3.Juana de Cisneros, m1 Gómez Gil de Villalobos, m2 before 9.11.1319
(bigamously) Fernando Rodríguez de Saldaña, (this suggests she was the
eldest and got married very young).
As he was presumably single when he fought at Moclín, 20 more or less
5 years seems a fair estimate, hence, b. ca. 1260.
I could not find a documented source for his parentage but searching
books and websites I saw only two possible fathers and two possible
mothers:
a) Gonzalo González Cisneros & Teresa Arias
b) Rodrigo González Girón & Teresa Arias
c) Rodrigo González Girón & Elvira NN...
For what I know until now I would bet on c) but there is a lot of work
to do before the bet will become an informed choice.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 5 Ago, 10:42, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
M.Sjostrom
parentage of Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros
and
reason for the name combination of Arias Gonzalvez
-------------------------------------------------------------
observe that Teresa Arias' father (the one who must have died when Teresa was relatively young, because the mother, Maria Froilas de Cifontes, married mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Golzalvez Giron, lord of Autillo, San Roman, Frechilla etc, and birthed further kids to the second husband)
carried the name: Arias Gonzalvez
In mid-1200s, a boy born to his descendants, could get his 'full' name, whatever would been that boy's own father's first name.
So, Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros (b est 1260) would not necessarily been son of any Gonzalvo.
This Arias Gonzalvez (of Quexada), father of Teresa Arias, is my hypothesis why Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros was so named.
The very suitable father for Arias de Cisneros, would chronologically and in linght of the property of Ciseros, been:
ricohombre Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros (fl 1257), eldest son of Teresa Arias.
This Rodrigo would been born in est 1230 or in 1230s (his father and mother were attested together in 1233). And his attestation (as more or less adult, being an executor of a will) in 1257 shows that he might very well have had a son sired in about 1260.
Because the queen Mantzia of Portugal was the co-executrix in 1257, and because Berenguala Lupis, younger sister of queen Mantzia, is held to have married a giron-heraldry man named Rodrigo Gonzalvez,
my mypothesis is also that Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros's mother was the said Berenguela Lupis of Biskaia.
mara Gonzalez Morejon
Maria Froilas de Cifontes, married mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Golzalvez Giron,
lord of Autillo, San Roman, Frechilla etc, and birthed further kids to the
second husband)
I'm lost here. I don't have María Froilaz married to Rodrigo Glz Girón,
not saying it isn't so, just don't have any proof of this.
> Because the queen Mantzia of Portugal was the co-executrix in 1257, and
> because Berenguala Lupis, younger sister of queen Mantzia, is held to have
> married a giron-heraldry man named Rodrigo Gonzalvez,
> my mypothesis is also that Arias Gonzalvez de Cisneros's mother was the
> said Berenguela Lupis of Biskaia.
>
> --------
I don't agree on this one. I checked Berenguela López de Haro's will at the
Real Academia de Historia and she does not mention any children, dead or
alive.
I translated my notes on a previous post.
1296.08.17
Will executed by Berenguela López de Haro.
D-9, fº 21 a 24.
She mentions:
Marquesa Rodríguez, her niece
Aldonza Suárez, her husband (Sancho Sánchez) and children.
Diego Fernández (nephew)
Mari Fernández de Mendoza and daughter Mari Sánchez.
Leaves 200 mrvds for Aldonza Diaz, daughter of García Jofre.
Regards,
Mara
M.Sjostrom
Carmen Juan Lovera
http://213.4.108.140/obref/arcipreste_hita/juan_lovera.htm
seems to say that Juan Rodriguez de Cisneros was Arias' illegitimate son, born of his moorish captivity, and I presume born of a Moorish mother...
M.Sjostrom
Cawley here, has information that Maria Froilas de Cifontes was married with Rodrigo Gonzalvez (who seemingly was mayordomo-mayor)
http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SPANISH%20NOBILITY%20EARLY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#MariaFroilazMRodrigoGonzalezGiron
* when having read about Maria froilas and her parentage at that spot, then click the name of her husband Rodrigo, it gives some sketch of Rodrigo's family
Of course it would be useful to have contemporary testimony about Maria Froilas' various marriages....
------------
it is nice to have details of the will of a Berenguela Lupis.
perhaps she was childless, and the children-bearing wife of Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros was some other lady.
Or, perhaps this Berenguela is another person than the one meant in 1250s or so documentation where married with a Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
I am wondering, how was Berenguela, if she was daughter of Urraka Alfonsez of Leon and Loupe Didakis, sovereign of Biskaia, have a niece 'Marquesa Rodriguez' and a nephew 'Diego Fernandez' ????
Because, perhaps Rodrigo Giron was the only of husbands of her sisters whose children would be 'Rodriguez', and I cannot see any good Fernan there at any suitable spot...
The correct Berenguela should be somewhere in Cisneros-Giron lands, presumably.
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
Chronologically, as Rodrigo father married Teresa (Haro) 31.3.1243 and
they had at least a surviving daughter, Berenguela was almost
certainly not Arias mother. Also there is no son in Cawley and
somebody I read (Salazar y Castro?) stated clearly that the marriage
was childless.
It is you who said that you were suspicious that Berenguela López de
Salcedo and Berenguela López de Haro were one and the same thus making
the last mother of Rodrigo González Girón.
When I saw 'Colección Diplomática del Real Monasterio de Sta. María de
Benavides' I read that in Rodrigo's (here the father) tomb was written
something like "presently married with Berenguela" implying that he
was married before and as Jeronymo Gudiel wrote, that was Berenguela
López de Salcedo.
Jeronymo Gudiel made severe errors in this epoch and he did not detect
the Haro's double marriages. I think that he followed *Pedro of
Barcelos* - or both followed something older - and Berenguela López de
Salcedo is displaced some generations.
Anyhow I strongly suspect that Rodrigo González Girón is nowhere said
'son of Berenguela' but only 'son of Rodrigo's first wife' and that
was then supposedely Berenguela (Salcedo).
As I wrote before, I still have a lot of digging to do but I am slowly
forming the conviction that Rodrigo González (son) and Gonzalo
González are full brothers and both sons of María Fróilaz. I still
have doubts about wich of them could be Arias father and I still have
to ponderate the indicia about wich of them would be the eldest, as
some are contradictory.
Incidentally, M. Sjostrom commented in other topic that some
consanguinity proved that Cisneros and Giróns-Autillo were different
stock. I have the opposite opinion.
As I wrote before, Salazar y Castro, crossing data from Mendozas and
Laras inplied a marriage nephew-older aunt in the Giróns. I would not
like to follow that but, really, considering that nowadays Cisneros
belongs to the jurisdiction of Frechilla, inbred marriages were to be
expected in this people (as well as lots of nuns).
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 5 Ago, 20:08, mara Gonzalez Morejon <gonzalezmore...@gmail.com>
wrote:
mara Gonzalez Morejon
>
>
> Cawley here, has information that Maria Froilas de Cifontes was married
> with Rodrigo Gonzalvez (who seemingly was mayordomo-mayor)
>
> http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/SPANISH%20NOBILITY%20EARLY%20MEDIEVAL.htm#MariaFroilazMRodrigoGonzalezGiron
> * when having read about Maria froilas and her parentage at that spot, then
> click the name of her husband Rodrigo, it gives some sketch of Rodrigo's
> family
------
Let me look further into María Froílaz. I just found one in my database
married to a Rodrigo González who I did not associate with the Girón.
Two notes on such marriage:
1229, March (Benevivere) Rodrigo González and his wife María Frolaz give all
their properties from the Monastery of D. Martín de Pereda and the valley
of Argovejo.
1257 (Ref. y Salazar y Castro collection which I have not checked): Rodrigo
González and María Froilaz give the churches of Villacid to Benavides.
>
> it is nice to have details of the will of a Berenguela Lupis.
>
> perhaps she was childless, and the children-bearing wife of Rodrigo
> Gonzalvez de Cisneros was some other lady.
>
> Or, perhaps this Berenguela is another person than the one meant in 1250s
> or so documentation where married with a Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
>
> I am wondering, how was Berenguela, if she was daughter of Urraka Alfonsez
> of Leon and Loupe Didakis, sovereign of Biskaia, have a niece 'Marquesa
> Rodriguez' and a nephew 'Diego Fernandez' ????
> Because, perhaps Rodrigo Giron was the only of husbands of her sisters
> whose children would be 'Rodriguez', and I cannot see any good Fernan there
> at any suitable spot...
My guess on this would be:
Marquesa Rodríguez would be the daughter of Ruy López de Haro (Berenguela's
brother).
In the Col. Diplo. Medieval de la Rioja, Doc. 77) mentions a document
executed in Cañas before Doña Urraca, wife of Don Lop and Countess Urraca
and Doña Toda Ortiz, mother of Diego López de Velasco, and ROY LÓPEZ, SON OF
DON LOP".
So I believe that Lope "Cabeza Brava" Díaz de Haro was the father of this
Ruy López de Haro who could have had a daughter named Marquesa Rodríguez.
The Diego Fernández could be a son of her sister, Urraca López de Haro who I
have married to Fernando Gutiérrez de Castro.
But then again, every now and then I find another undocumented child of the
Haros so take this just as my hypothesis.
I will look at her will again in Sept. when the Real Ac. Historia opens
again (closed in August).
Regards,
Mara
>
>
mara Gonzalez Morejon
"It is you who said that you were suspicious that Berenguela López de
Salcedo and Berenguela López de Haro were one and the same thus making
the last mother of Rodrigo González Girón."
Yes, Francisco, you're right. That's why it's positive to have these
discussions. I thought that 2 Berengelas were too much of a coincidence,
but now I believe it is possible and that Berengela López de Haro did not
have any children after going back and reading my notes on her will, which,
like I said earlier, I will check again in more detail when the Academia
re-opens in September.
Many regards,
Mara
M.Sjostrom
the 1257 donation of the church of Villacid (las iglesias de Villacid) to the monastery of Benevivas, was an act of several parts.
Firstly, there apparently was already an EARLIER donation (of the same?) to Benevivas made by Maria Froilas...
Then, in 1257, there came into being two separate grants, of that thing, to the same recipient. I interpret this: it belonged to two different owners jointly, and both owners, separately, made the donation.
In April 1257:
“doña Berenguela López…don Gonzalvo Ramirez e don Gonzalvo Garcia e don Diego Ordoñez massessores de don Rodrigo Gonzalvez” donated “las iglesias de Villacid” to Benevivas monastery by charter dated Apr 1257, which gives also a reminder of an earlier donation by “don .... e doña Maria Frolaz”
already in February 1257:
“Reina doña Mencia e…don Rodrigo Goncalvez fijo de don Goncalo Gonzalvez, mansesores de doña Teresa Arias” donated “las iglesias de Villacid” to Benevivas monastery by charter dated 24 Feb 1257
* Rodrigo Gonzalvez de Cisneros, son of the grand chancellor Gonzalvo Gonzalvez, lives at that time
* Rodrigo Gonzalvez, mayordomo-mayor, is deceased. He had died in February 1256.
---
* Teresa Arias, daughter of Maria Froilas, obviously was one of those two joint owners
* the late mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez (whose first wife Maria Froilas had been), was seemingly the other of those two joint owners
Not very surprisingly, the earlier donation seems to been made by Maria Froilas and her husband Rodrigo Gonzalvez (who had been married to each other at least in 1229).
------
this means that neither Rodrigo Gonzalvez the mayordomo-mayor nor Maria Froilas did live in 1257. That date is only a reminiscence, a mention of a donation they had made much earlier, at an unspecified date. Which could been in 1220s, or in 1230s.
Still, that attests that this couple did that Villacid thing TOGETHER, and thusly presumably were married - and the same coule who made the 1229 deed of something else
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
Juan Ruiz who Carmen Juan Lovera and many others wrote about is the
illegitimate, religious as all the other 3 - 2 years arcipreste de
Hita and if things had not turned wrong he would have been a bishop -
and the celebrated author of _Libro de bueno amor_. Juan Rodríguez,
the eldest of the surviving legitimate, was the one that participated
in the battle of Salado.
Btw, when I have reviewed what I wrote, I realised that I could be
wrong about Juana Cisneros. I have assumed that she was Arias daughter
only because the papal dispensation was of the same date that some
privileges granted to some of Arias ilegitimate children, but she
could well be Arias sister.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 5 Ago, 19:46, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Carmen Juan Loverahttp://213.4.108.140/obref/arcipreste_hita/juan_lovera.htm
M.Sjostrom
as to the 1200s (even in Iberia), I would classify a marriage between aunt and nephew;
as well as a marriage between uncle and niece;
total impossibilities.
The papacy did not yet consent to such dispensations. It was seemingly an impossible idea.
and, while ancient Iberoroman culture had had lots of first-cousin marriages, there's no example of uncle-niece or aunt-nephew marriages in that Iberian past.
I think aunt-nephew marriage would been a taboo, in that tradition.
---------
In 1400s, some popes started to grant dispensations to uncles to marry their half-nieces. and that sort of.
But it very clearly was clearly clearly long afterwards.
The popes who did so, were firstly embattled ones: such who were in almost fringe position in that schism of several rival poperies. They needed their supporters, and that's much of the reason why they acquiesced.
But, 1200s was not yet such an era.
-------
of course, such genealogists as Salazar Castro, lived in a much later era, and had known what the recent Habsburgs did. They were not enough medievally oriented in their cultural perception. A notion of high-medieval aunt-nephew marriage did not meet enough critical thought at that later time, sadly.
so, Francisco, while I am curious to know what marriages and auntships exactly were hypothetized for these,
rest assured that I feel an aunt-nephew marriage was out of question still in the 1200s.
Francisco Tavares de Almeida
bad as discussing Obama's birth certificate.
I would not be so assertive. I think you are putting to much weight in
papacy and plain wrong about culture.
Popes had limited information and even with kings they only acted
second hand and after somebody complained (for instance for queen
María Molina was the king of France who complained because he was
defending the rights of his nephew La Cerda; for Sancho II of Portugal
and Mencia de Haro was Afonso, count of Bologne who wanted the
brother's throne and complained).
On the other hand, what I read about life and sexual behaviour in high
medieval ages showed enough cases of oncle-niece improper
relationships, most commonly with the girl finishing in a convent.
Also narratives of boys initiation in sex, showed immediately after
the maid servants, youg cousins of the same age and even if in small
number, the younger mother's sister who comes home to help the sister
in a late pregnancy and gets envolved with the 14/15 years old nephew
with the same consequences to the aunt if unmarried. I have also read
- I ignore the fundaments - that lower classes showed higher
profligacy and possibly due to inadequate households even incest was
not unheard of.
From all I would conclude that, excluded incest, there was not a
cultural taboo.
Now if a strong headed woman refused the convent and the family -
mother, head of family, familiar informal council, anything but
father, supposedely dead and who's property was beeing discussed-
decided they they did not want to divide part of Frechilla or Cisneros
and no other properties were available I think marriage within the
family would be the natural alternative and if nobody else was
available a younger nephew could be considered.
In this case nobody would complain and, centuries before the
Inquisition, the only canonical authority was the bishop and this one
was from a family of the same stand with the same cultural formation.
Most improbable - a last resort as I said - but not impossible.
Regards,
Francisco
(Portugal)
On 6 Ago, 00:46, "M.Sjostrom" <q...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> as to the 1200s (even in Iberia), I would classify a marriage between aunt and nephew;
> as well as a marriage between uncle and niece;
> total impossibilities.
>
> The papacy did not yet consent to such dispensations. It was seemingly an impossible idea.
>
> and, while ancient Iberoroman culture had had lots of first-cousin marriages, there's no example of uncle-niece or aunt-nephew marriages in that Iberian past.
> I think aunt-nephew marriage would been a taboo, in that tradition.
>
> ---------
>
> In 1400s, some popes started to grant dispensations to uncles to marry their half-nieces. and that sort of.
Not relevant but - my excuse - not worse than discussing Obama's birth
certificate.
M.Sjostrom
the hypothesis for a direct male-line descent for the 'Girones' of Cisneros from genuine Girones of Autillo, seems to be desperate and going in all likelihood to be fruitless.
Desperate scramble after an agnatic pedigree, when the culture did NOT require such.
The inheritance of mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez (d 1256) appears to been fragmented to all sorts of directions.
Let me remind that IF he had no son, he still had one or more daughters who survived him. Seemingly at least Ines.
His brother's issue would not have a priori inherited him.
His surviving daughters, Ines as such and possibly there was other daughter(s) such as Manzia, were his justified heirs.
Only a sort of adoption (and testamentary dispositions) would have changed that.
and there is no requirement that his 'adoptees' were sons of his brother - in that culture, sons of stepdaughter go as well, when testaments and sort of adoption are used.
----
However, IF Rodrigo (d 1256) had had son, then a bulk of his properties presumably would have gone to such a son.
The trouble for those-desiring-agnates is, no thing near-contemporary offers testimony that he had son or sons.
----
The concoction,
Rodrigo Gonzalvez 'the father'
and
Rodrigo Gonzalvez 'the son'
tastes desperate. and looks unsuccessful.
Firstly, could one Rodrigo Gonzalvez be ruled out?
that one RG who fl 1257. His mother was Teresa Arias - and RG 'the father' was never married with Teresa Arias.
The other Rodrigo Gonzalvez, fl 1282, chronologically possible for being son of RG 'the father' (although born very late in that case, to a very elderly father.... ),
is ruled ou by the fact that he reports himself that his father was Gonzalvo Rodriguez. Not 'Rodrigo Gonzalvez'
All in all, there appears no man who received anything which looks like RG 'the father's' properties who reports himself or is reported, by near-contemporary sources, as son of that RG mayordomo-mayor.
So, his agnatic line deceased with himself.
'the father' and 'the son' as to Rodrigo Gonzalvez 'Giron' does not simply work at all in the 1200s.
besides, no contemporary documentation says any Rodrigo Gonzalvez giron having been son of another Rodrigo Gonzalvez, in that century.
-----
A model example of desperate scramble after an agnatic pedigree, where no such existed.
M.Sjostrom
Maria Froilas de Cifontes
=====================
this lady, the wife of Rodrigo Fernandes de Valduerno, Cabrera,
seemingly was a sister of that Maria Froilas who married firstly Arias Gonzalvez and secondly the future mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez
and this lady's name, according to some sources, were Teresa Froilas
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00515087&tree=LEO
(NOT thusly Maria froilas...)
does anybody have contemporary documentation over what was her attested name ?
--------
because, on 29 August 1230,
"La condesa Sancha Fernández…con sus hijos Ramiro, Diego, Rodrigo y Teresa Fróilaz" donated property to the monastery of Santa María de Sandoval, for the souls of "conde Froila su marido y su hijo Bernardo" (the charter dated 29 Aug 1230),
this means that one of her daughters, Maria Froilas de Cifontes, the first wife of Rodrigo Gonzalvez, was absent from this charitable deed.
* there could be an argument whether the mother would have cajoled all her living children with to make the donation, or one survivor of them were absent in that charitable deed
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00139808&tree=LEO
Maria Froilas (as wife of Rodrigo gonzalvez) is attested living in 1229
IF Maria Froilas were dead already at this time, 1230, her mother the countess Sanzia, would likely have included her among those for whose souls the donation was intended
mara Gonzalez Morejon
------
What I have is that Conde Froila Ramírez first married Urraca González,
daughter of Count Gonzalo Fernández de Traba and Berenguela Rodríguez
(daughter of Count Rodrigo Vélaz and Úrraca Álvarez).
Note on Urraca Álvarez (the first wife):
1189, oct. 19 (Sta. María de Benevívere): Countess Urraca Glz, wife of
Count Froila, gives Benevívere the third part of the Monastery of S. Martín
de Pereda and the villa of Pereda, with properties in more than 30 towns,
nearly all in the Riaño region. She does this with the consent of her
husband.
I have her as the mother of María Fróilaz and Nuño Fróilaz who married Doña
Mayor Pérez (don’t have her parentage), who in 1243 (Benevívere) as the
widow of Munio donates to the monastery properties in Curniero, Primiages,
and Mentar and half the inheritance and mill in Riaño in exchange for half
of the church of Bustocirio.
Froila’s second wife was Sancha Fernández and I think that instead of
Bernardo, it was Vermudo, probably the scribe’s mistake.
M.Sjostrom
in Huelgas 1232, Oct. 29, doc. 270: "...yo don Rodrigo Gonzalvez e yo, don Gonzalvo Gonzalvez amos hermanos..." " ...metemos nos amos hermanos, nuestros seyellos en ellas, et la abadesa el suio..."
It is a lawsuit between Rodrigo and gonzalo with the monastery, about some lands in Villarmetero de Campos, Revenga de Campos, Villalonga and Villovieco.
Otero de las due�as, may 1, 1234: " Seniores in Vallemiriel: Rodericus Gonzalvet, Don Ramiro, Rodericus Roderici, Gonzalvo Gonzalvet"
---------------------
1234:
Rodrigo Rodriguez could be the old chancellor, claimed to be the younger son of Rodrigo Guterres.
Rodrigo Gonzalvez could be this future mayordomo-mayor, RG Giron, lord of San Roman, Frechilla etc. Paternal nephew of the previous, i.e of Rodrigo Rodriguez.
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez could be the grand chancellor (of 1233 attestation), who married that stepdaughter of Rodrigo Gonzalvez (the previous guy)
don Ramiro could be Ramiro Froilas de Cifontes, who married Aldonza, sister of the mentioned Rodrigo Gonzalvez.
-----
1232:
Rodrigo Gonzalvez could be the future mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron, lord of San Roman, Frechilla etc.
Gonzalvo Gonzalvez could be the 1233 grand chancellor, and husband of Rodrigo Gonzalvez' stepdaughter Teresa Arias.
This document would support that he simultaneously was RG's brother.
------
what words are in how thos continues:
yo don Rodrigo Gonzalvez e yo, don Gonzalvo Gonzalvez amos hermanos...
?
....me, A, and me, B, both brothers....
this *could* continue with something like:
....both brothers of C.
there were half-brotherships and step-brotherships aplenty in those days high nobility.
M.Sjostrom
Maria Froilas
=============
that Maria Froilas who married the future mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron, in high likelihood would not been born yet in 1170s or earlier.
Namely, Rodrigo Gonzalvez was probably born in early 1190s.
the wife would not likely have been very much older than her husband.
Besides, I think the info about the existence of marriage between Rodrigo Gonzalvez and Maria Froilas is not from earlier than in 1220s. 1220 would be a good date for marriage between a man almost thirty and a woman of about thirty who already is a wealthy widow. But they would not have married (nor had kids), had she been already nearing 50.
Maria Froilas could rather been born in c1190. Or even later in the 1190s.
-----
It is an interesting idea that Maria Froilas would possibly have been daughter of countess Urraca Goncalves, instead of being daughter of countess Sanzia Fernandes.
It has earlier looked to me that Urraca Goncalves had no known progeny to the next century. So, if Maria Froilas is her daughter, then she would have a pretty ascertained progeny to the present day.
such also would make Maria Froilas as an important heiress, heiress of presumably Galizian lands, since Urraca Goncalves' both parents were Galizian magnates.
Hey, is there anything galizian in the properties of Teresa Arias and her issue, or in properties held (jure uxoris) by mayordomo-mayor Rodrigo Gonzalvez Giron ???
------
is something really giving attestation that Teresa Arias (who existed) was really some sort of Quexada ???
sometimes these sorts of 'surnames' are just concoctions of much much later genealogists.