Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.

Possible Identification of Juliana, wife of Robert de Chaucombe

Skip to first unread message

May 13, 2004, 11:01:46 PM5/13/04
Thursday, 13 May, 2004

Dear Rosie, Doug, Chris, Cris, Mardi, Brom, Tim, Todd, et al.,

Robert de Chaucombe (d. aft 13 Sept 1246) was the little-known
lord of Chaucombe, Northants. and Rotherby, co. Leics., best known
as the ancestor through his daughters of the Lords Basset (of
Sapcote), Lords Botetourt, Sutton of Dudley, the Lords Segrave
[and thereby of the Howard Dukes of Norfolk] and others too numerous
to contemplate]. HThe daughters of Robert and Juliana (____) de
Chaucombe were Amabil (wife of Gilbert de Segrave) - named for her
paternal grandmother - and Millicent (wife of Ralph Basset of
Sapcote), whose namesake is otherwise not identifiable in CP.
Juliana (or Julian) is not otherwise identified, but a solution to
her identification would obviously affect the ancestry of a great
many individuals.

The juxtaposition of the names Juliana and Millicent as mother
and daughter does, however, suggest a solution. The family that
provides known relationships of individuals with these names is that
of Hugh de Gournay of Mapledurham, co. Oxon. (d. 25 Sep 1214, son of
Hugh de Gournay by Melisende, or Millicent, de Coucy) and his wife
Juliana (identified presently as Juliana de Dammartin, daughter of
Aubri II de Dammartin and Maud de Clermont). A brief chart of the
relationships given by this identification would appear as follows
(the conjectured connection appearing as a broken line: _ _ _ ):

Hugh de = Melisende Aubri de = Maud de
Gournay I de Coucy Dammartin I Clermont I__________ I
Hugh de Gournay = Juliana de Hugh de = Amabilis
d. 25 Sep 1214 I Dammartin Chaucombe I___
____________________________I_______ _ _ _ _ _ _ I
Millicent Gerard Hugh Anselm Juliana = Robert de
= 2) William (dvp) d. 1238 I Chaucombe
de Cantelou I I 1246
d. Feb 1250/1 I_____ I
__I___________________ I __________I_____
Juliana William [others] Juliana Amabil Millicent
= Robert I = William = 1) Gilbert = Ralph
de Tregoz I Bardolf I de Segrave Basset
I I I I = 2) Roger de I
I I I I I Somery I

While the above conjecture is short on documentation, the
relationship indicated is reasonable and has no apparent
circumstantial defects:

1. Chronologically, Juliana (wife of Robert de Chaucombe)
makes a good 'fit' as a daughter of Hugh de Gournay and
Juliana de Dammartin. Her husband is contemporaneous
with her likely siblings Millicent (de Gournay) de
Cantelou and Hugh de Gournay, and the grandchildren of
Juliana are reasonably contemporary with the grandchildren
of Millicent and Hugh [see below].

2. Hugh de Gournay and Robert de Chaucombe are of reasonably
equivalent baronial rank. Hugh served as Sheriff of
Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire (1214 at least), and
Hugh de Chaucombe, father of Robert, served as
sheriff of Staffordshire, Warwick and Leicestershire,
1196-98, and again as sheriff of Warwickshire and
Leicestershire, Oct 1204 - July 1207. A union of the son
of Hugh de Chaucombe and a daughter of Hugh de Gournay
would have been unremarkable.

3. There are no instances of consanguineous unions noted
in the identified progeny of Juliana (if properly
identified herein) and of her conjectured siblings, Hugh
and Millicent de Gournay.

I would be most interested if anyone of the group has 'related'
information or documentation, esp. as to any holdings of the
individuals involved that would confirm (or disprove) the
relationships herein conjectured. If confirmed, this identification
would provide further ancestry for the descendants of Robert de
Chaucombe from French and Norman nobility, as well as additional
Capetian and Carolingian ancestry.


John *


1 Hugh V de Gournay
Birth: ca 1148[1]
Death: 25 Sep 1214[2]
Father: Hugh IV de Gournay (ca1094-ca1180)
Mother: Melisende de Coucy

of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
assessed a fine of more than £119 1180 (Pipe Roll xxix p. 19[2])
received a grant of Wendover, Bucks. and Houghton, Beds. from King
Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; at the siege of Acre,
1190 (charter to the abbey of Bec confirmed by Richard I, 1190)
opted for England at the pacification of Normandy, 1204 and had
restoration of his lands in Norfolk and elsewhere by decree of King
John, 1206[2]
Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1214
resigned his lands to son Gerard, 1214[2]

Dugdale indicates he died in 1221 (6 Hen. 3),
'for then did the King direct his Precept to William de Cantilupe,
to restore unto Hugh his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all
the Lands of his Inheritance, then in his custody.'[3]

"In England, among other manors, Hugh V now held, beside
Mapledurham, Bledlowe in Bucks, some restored manors in Norfolk
(Caister, Cantley, and lands in Aylsham), also Houghton in Beds and
Waltham in Lincs, while in 1210 we find him paying a fine of 700
marks for Wendover.' [Cooke, p. 11[2]]

Spouse: Juliana de Dammartin[1]
Birth: ca 1165[1]
Father: Aubri II de Dammartin (-1200)
Mother: Maud of Clermont (->1200)

Children: Millicent (-1260)
Gerard (->1213)
Hugh VI (-1238)

1.1a Millicent de Gournay*
Death: 1260[1]

she m. 1st Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux,
2ndly William de Cantelou[4]

Fine for her marriage by William de Cantelou 'senior', 2 Hen. III
(Dugdale, citing Rot. Pip. 2 H. 3)[3]
her maritagium included lands in Houghton, co. Beds. (fine in 4 Hen.
3 paid by William de Cantelou 'senior' for these lands)

re: her 2nd husband, William de Cantelou:

of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick
steward of Henry III[2]
"he and Milicent his wife, 'formerly wife of Aumarie, Count of
Evreux,' had dower in Petersfield and Mapledurham.." (CP Vol V
(Gloucester), p. 693)[4]

Spouse: William de Cantelou[4]
Death: 22 Feb 1250[4]
Birth: ? 1185
Father: William de Cantelou (?1158-1239)
Mother: Mesceline de Braci
Marr: 1217[4],[3]

Children: Juliana (->1285)
William (-1254)
Thomas (?1218-1282)
Nicholas (-<1266)
John (->1257)
Hugh (->1260)

Other Spouses Amauri de Montfort

1.1a.1 Juliana de Cantelou[4]
Death: aft 6 Aug 1285

William de Cantelou d. 1250, leaving sons and
'...Julian, the Wife of Sir Robert de Tregoz.' Dugdale, Baronage,
p. 732 [cites Ex. coll. R. Gl. S.][3]

Spouse: Robert de Tregoz
Death: bef 24 Sep 1268[4]
Father: Robert de Tregoz (-<1215)
Mother: Sibyl de Ewyas (-<1236)
Marr: bef 1 Aug 1245[4]

Children: John (-1300)

1.1a.2 William de Cantelou
Death: 25 Sep 1254[4]
Burial: 30 Sep 1254, Studley priory, co. Warwick[4]

of Calne, co. Wilts., Houghton, co. Beds. and Aston Cantlow, co.
Warwick [5]

as William de Cantelou 'the Younger', said to have journeyed on a
pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela with Piers de Montfort, 1236

also held a moiety of Badmondisfield, Suffolk[6]

after his death, Prince Edward (the future Edward I) held the
wardship of his heirs (Edward I, p. 38)[7]

Spouse: Eve de Braose
Death: bef 28 Jul 1255[4]
Father: William de Braose (-1230)
Mother: Eva le Marshal (-<1246)
Marr: aft 25 Jul 1238[4]

Children: Joan (-<1271)
Millicent (-<1298)
George (1252-1273)

1.1a.3 Agnes de Cantelou

parentage as documented in the Boxgrove Stemma Funditoris (cf. CP Vol
XI [St. John], p. 323 and 323n[4])

Spouse: Robert de Saint John
Death: bef 26 Mar 1266[4]
Father: William de Saint John (ca1181-1239)
Mother: Godeheut de Tosny (?) (->1243)

Children: John (-<1302)

1.1a.4 Thomas de Cantelou
Birth: ? 1218
Death: 25 Aug 1282, Orvieto, Italy[8]
Occ: Bishop of Hereford, 1275-1282

Bishop of Hereford, 1275-1282
also known as 'St. Thomas Cantilupe', or 'St. Thomas of Hereford'

educated at Oxford, then Paris
Chancellor of Oxford University, 1262
supporter of the baronial cause and de Montfort before King Louis,
Amiens, 1259

Chancellor of England following Battle of Lewes, February 1265
(deprived on restoration of Henry III after Battle of Evesham, 1265)

consecrated Bishop of Hereford, 8 Sept 1275

excommunicated in 1282 (by Archbishop of Canterbury); traveled to
Rome to pleasd his own cause before Pope Martin, dying at Orvieto

his relics brought back to Hereford, the site of many miracles
canonized by Pope John XXII, 1320[8]

1.1a.5 Nicholas de Cantelou
Death: bef 24 Sep 1266[4]

of Greasley, Notts. and Ilkeston, co. Derby (de jure uxoris)

lst husband of Eustache fitzRalph

Spouse: Eustache FitzHugh
Father: Ralph FitzHugh

Children: William (<1262-<1308)
Joan (->1301)

1.1a.6 John de Cantelou
Death: aft 24 Sep 1257[9]

of Snitterfield, co. Warwick

had a grant of a fair and market from King Henry III by charter, 24
Sept 1257[9]

ancestor of Sir Walter de Cantilupe of Snitterfield (fl. 1323)

1.1a.7 Hugh de Cantelou
Death: aft 30 Sep 1260[10]
Occ: archdeacon of Gloucester

nominee of Prince Edward to succeed as Bishop of Durham in 1260
(following death of Walter Kirkham) - another elected in his place,
30 Sept 1260[10]

1.1b Millicent de Gournay* (See above)

Spouse: Amauri de Montfort, Earl of Gloucester [1st husband]
Death: bef Nov 1213, d.s.p.[4]
Father: Amauri de Montfort (-1191)
Mother: Mabel of Gloucester
Marr: bef 1204[4]

Other Spouses William de Cantelou

1.2 Gerard de Gournay
Death: aft 1213, d.v.p.[3]

1.3a Hugh VI de Gournay*[4]
Death: 1238[2]
Burial: Langley Abbey, Norfolk[2]

of Mapledurham, Oxon.[4] and Caister, Norfolk
evidently joined the baronial cause against King John (his lands
transferred to William de Cantelou, 1218); had restoration of same,
1222 (mandate to William de Cantelou from King Henry III,
Westminster, 1 May 1222. Excerpta I:86[11])[2]

stated by Dugdale to have married 'Lucy, the Daughter of Robert de
Berkley' [Baronage, p. 430][3] - Noted in CP and elsewhere as
actually being the widow of Robert de Berkeley[4],[12]

had charters granted by King Henry III dated 19 March 1235 for
a market and fair at Cantley, Norfolk:
' (Letter Close) Tues; gr 19 Mar 1235, by K Hen III to
Hugh de Gurnay (CR, 1234–7, p. 60). To be held at the manor.
Mandate to the sh of Norfolk to proclaim the market and cause
it to be established.'[9]

d. before 27 Aug 1239 - mandate to the Sheriff of Oxford concerning
"the manor of Mapledurham which Matilda, who was the wife of 'Hug'
de Gurnay' holds in dower..." [Excerpta I"328][11]

he m. 1stly Lucy,
2ndly Matilda

Spouse: Matilda[2]

1.3b Hugh VI de Gournay* (See above)

Spouse: Lucy
Death: 18 Jan 1234[4]
Marr: aft 13 May 1220[4]

Children: Juliana (-<1295)

1.3b.1 Juliana de Gournay
Death: bef 29 Nov 1295[4]

heiress of Mapledurham, Oxon., Cantley, Norfolk & c.[4]
married 1stly Roger de Clifford[2]

identified by John Carmi Parsons as the daughter of Lucy, lst wife of
Hugh de Gournay[12]

On the death of her father Hugh de Gournay,
' William de Cantilupe gave five hundred marks Fine for the
Wardship of Julian, his Daughter and Heir, and the custody of her
Lands.' [ Dugdale, Baronage, p. 430 [de Gournay], p. 732 [de

Spouse: William Bardolf
Death: 1 Dec 1289[4]
Father: William Bardolf (<1194-<1274)
Marr: bef 1255[2]

Children: Hugh (ca1259-<1304)
Roger (-<1305)
John (-?1331)

1.4 Anselm de Gournay

ancestor of Gournay of Beverstone, co. Gloucs. & c.[3]

Spouse: Eve de Ghent
Father: Robert fitz Robert fitz Harding (-1194)
Mother: Hawise de Gournay

Children: Robert (-1269)

1.4.1 Robert de Gournay
Death: 1269[13]

of Beverstone, co. Gloucs.

Children: Anselm (-1286)

1.5 Juliana de Gournay (?)


re: her husband Robert de Chaucombe:

of Chaucombe, Northants. and Rotherby, co. Leics.

witness with William de Chaucumbe to a grant of land in Rotherby by
William de Redrebi to Chaucombe priory, ca. 1200 (HKF II:75,
citing Stenton, Danelaw Ch. 305)[14]

confirmed his father's gift of 'the whole land of Rotherby' to
Chaucombe priory, '..for the souls of himself, his father
Hugh and his mother Amable...' (HKF II:75, citing
Madox, Formulare, 158)[14]

Grant dated ca 1225:
' Gift from Robert de Chaucumb to the Abbot and Convent of
Stanleia of two virgates of land with all appurtenances in the vill
of Cubinton' which the same Abbot and Convent had in perpetual farm
by the gift of the Prior of the Convent of Chaucumbe.
Witnesses: Thomas de Ardena, Geoffrey de Semilli, William de
Essesho, Hugh de Upton', William de Annersi, Simon de Cubinton',
Henry his son, John de Stanleia, Thomas de Finham, Henry de
Suckeberge, Osbert de Suckeberge, Alexander de Meleburne, and many
[ Seal on tag: circular, white. A knight on horseback carrying a
falcon on his right wrist. Legend: SI[GILLUM ROBERTI DE CHAV]COMBA.
Endorsed: i) Robertus de Chaucomb' [AG] ii) Warr' . [PRO,
Shakespeare Birthplace Trust Records Office: Gregory of Stivichall
[DR10/468 - DR10/970], Cubbington: DR10/500[15] ]

his daughter and son-in-law Gilbert de Segrave fined
concerning a debt he owed in annual rents to the King,
13 Sept 30 Hen III (1246). Excerpta e Rotulis Finium

cf. CP II:6 (sub Basset of Sapcote)[4]

Spouse: Robert de Chaucombe[4]
Death: bef 13 Sep 1246[11]
Father: Hugh de Chaucombe (->1181)
Mother: Amabil

Children: Amabil

1.5.1a Amabil de Chaucombe*
Burial: Chaucombe Priory[4]

coheiress of Chaucombe, Northants.[4]

"Gilb'o de Seg've et Amabil' uxi ejus filie et hedi Rob'i de
Chaucumb' ", fined concerning a debt her father owed in annual rents
to the King, 13 Sept 30 Hen III (1246). Excerpta e Rotulis Finium

made a gift of land and rents in Rotherby, co. Leics. to Chaucombe
priory (HKF II:75, citing Mon. Angl. vi. 428)[14]

had dower lands in Seagrave, Mountsorrel and a third part of Sileby,
co. Leics. and in Whiston, co. Staffs.[14]

married 1stly Gilbert de Segrave,
2ndly Roger de Somery

Spouse: Gilbert de Segrave
Death: bef 8 Oct 1254, Pons, Poitou[4]
Father: Stephen de Segrave (-1241)
Mother: Rohese le Despenser
Marr: bef 30 Sep 1231[4]

Children: Nicholas (<1238-<1295)

Other Spouses Roger de Somery

1.5.1a.1 Nicholas de Segrave
Death: bef 12 Nov 1295[4]
Birth: bef 17 Dec 1238[4],[14]
Burial: Chaucombe Priory, Northants.
Occ: Lord Segrave

of Segrave, co. Leicester and Chaucombe, co. Northants
supporter of de Montfort against the King; commanded the Londoners at
the Battle of Lewes, 14 May 1264
wounded and captured at the Battle of Evesham, 4 Aug 1265, and his
lands granted to Edmund of Lancaster[4]
in league with the Earl of Gloucester and still in rebellion Apr
1267, but pardoned and admitted into the King's peace 1 Jul 1267[7]

served King Edward as a household knight[7]

summoned to Parliament on 24 June 1295 by writ directed 'Nich(ola)s
de Segrave seniori', whereby held to have become Lord Segrave[4]

Spouse: Maud[4]

Children: Sir John (ca1256-<1325)
Nicholas (-1321)
Gilbert (-1316)

1.5.1a.2 Alice de Segrave

cf. DNB ['Gilbert de Segrave'[16]]

Spouse: William Mauduit
Death: 8 Jan 1267, d.s.p.[4]
Father: William Mauduit (-<1256)
Mother: Alice de Newburgh (-<1263)

1.5.1b Amabil de Chaucombe* (See above)

Spouse: Roger de Somery
Death: 26 Aug 1273[5]
Father: Sir Ralph de Somery (-<1212)
Mother: Margaret le Marshal
Marr: bef 1255[4]

Children: Roger (1255-<1291)

1.5.1b.1 Roger de Somery
Birth: 24 Jun 1255[4]
Death: bef 12 Oct 1291[4]

of Chipping Camden, co. Glocs., Sedgley, co. Staffs. and Dudley, co.

summoned on 14 July 1287 to Gloucester[4]

Spouse: Agnes
Death: bef 24 Nov 1308[4]

Children: John (1279-<1322)
Margaret (ca1290-)
Joan (ca1292->1322)

1.5.2 Millicent de Chaucombe

younger daughter and coheir of he father

cf. CP II:6[4]

Spouse: Ralph Basset
Death: ca 1282[4]
Father: Ralph Basset

Children: Simon (-1295) Simon Basset
Death: 1295

of Sapcote, co. Leics.

summoned cum equis et armis to accompany the King to Gascony, 14 June

cf. CP II:6-7[4]

Children: Ralph (-ca1322)

1. "Stevens/Southworth Medieval Database," James Allen Stevens,
Rootsweb, created 14 May 2000 [extracted 25 April 2001],
2. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, M.A.,
Sc.D., Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford: Oxfordshire Record
Society, 1925, *orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe,
[], p. 11 cited by T. Powys-Lybbe (re:
Hugh V de Gournay).
3. William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, "The Baronage of England,"
Tho. Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675
[reprint New York, 1977].
4. G. E. Cokayne, "The Complete Peerage,"
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain
and the United Kingdom.
5. Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215,"
Baltimore: Gen Pub Co., 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David
6. W. A. Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., "The Manors of Suffolk:
Notes on Their History and Devolution," London: T. F. Unwin,
1905-1911, 7 Vols.
7. "Edward I," Michael Prestwich, New Haven: Yale University Press,
1997 [in England, originally 1988 -Methuen], Yale English
Monarchs series.
8. "St. Thomas of Hereford (Thomas de Cantelupe)," Edwin Burton,
Robert Appleton Co. (online edition, 1999: Kevin Knight), Vol
XIV (de Cantelupe): 1912, transcribed by Thomas M. Barrett,
9. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516,"
10. Margaret Howell, "Eleanor of Provence," Oxford: Blackwell
Publishers Ltd, 1998.
11. Charles Roberts, ed., "Excerpta ex Rotulis Finium," The
Commissioners of the Public Records of the Kingdom, Vol I
(1216-1246), 1835, full title: Excerpta e Rotulis Finium in
Turri Londinensi asservatis, Henrico Tertio Rege, A.D. 1216-1272.
12. John Carmi Parsons, "More Angevin Bastards," Sept 7, 1998,
13. I. J. Sanders, "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and
Descent, 1086-1327," Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
14. William Farrer, Litt.D., "Honors and Knights' Fees," London:
Spottiswoode, Ballantyne & Co., Ltd., 1924 (3 vols.), Vol I:
Vol II: Chester; Huntingdon, Vol III: Arundel, Eudes the Sewer,
15. "Public Record Office Archives,"
16. "Gilbert de Segrave [article]," Dictionary of National Biography,
Oxford Univ. Press, p. 1136 : Gilbert de Segrave.

* John P. Ravilious

Cristopher Nash

Oct 5, 2004, 5:50:27 PM10/5/04
Appetizing, John. Any holdings in common or proximate? Any trace of
intermarriage with a 3d family / other sociopolit connections? I'm
with you & promise not to chaucombe up to coincidence, let alone
consign the amabil theory to segrave til more unfolds. Just coming
out of the massive middle-of-Stratford(on-A) housebuild & hope to get
back into use in nottoodist future.

Yrs, C

> Hugh de Gurnay (CR, 1234-7, p. 60). To be held at the manor.


0 new messages