Identification of "William Malet"
THERON L. SMITH
depth comments and interpretations of the Lucy and Godiva scenarios.
The charts provided by Kay Allen and Ken Finton were especially
appreciated (after I assisted my printer a bit.) Part of my interest
in these lines is because I've placed as ancestors, descendants of
Lucy and 3d husband, Ranulph de Meschines, as well as descendants of
Ealdyth, Godiva's granddaughter.
To pose a question about the Malet line, I compiled a brief Ahnentafel
on William Malet the MC Surety (also an ancestor through his daughter
Hawise and both her husbands, Hugh Poyntz and Robert Muscegros).
My sources were AR7 (7th Edition of Ancestral Roots of Certain
American Colonists), BP (Burke's Peerage and Baronetage),
Turton, and Wurts' MAGNA CHARTA (I'm looking forward to the
1999 publication of Farris and Richardson's MAGNA CHARTA book)
1. William Malet of Curry Malet , the Magna Charta surety, m. Alice
Bassett
2. Gilbert Malet of Curry Malet (AR7, BP, and Wurts) [William in
Turton]
3. Alice Picot
4. William Malet, d. 1169
6. Ralph Picot
8. Robert Malet of Curry Malet, Somerset, d. by 1156 (AR7:"thought [to
be] gr. s. [of] William Malet, d. 1071")
16. Gilbert Malet (BP and Wurts) [William with wife Helewise in
Turton] [entry not in AR7.]
32. William Malet (AR7, BP, and Wurts) [Robert in Turton] In co
Lincoln bef 1066; was granted the Barony of Eye, Suffolk. and d. 1071.
BP and Wurts says 32 and 33 had a daughter Beatrice (m. William de
Arches) and 2 sons: (a) Robert, Lord Malet, Great Chamberlain, Lord of
Eye in Suffolk 1086, then banished and disinherited after 1105; and
(b) Gilbert.
33. Hesilia Crispin (BP, Wurts and Turton), living 1086
My primary question is: Taking into account probable inaccuracies in
my limited secondary sources, is the William Malet who d. 1071 and
shown as #32 above the same person as the one called simply "William
Malet" in the recent multiple postings? These postings, of course,
had the following about "William Malet":
(a) His mother was probably an English woman and probably closely
related to Godiva.
(b) Had sons Robert and Durand; a daughter who m. Torold of
Lincoln (father of Lucy who 3m. Ranulf de Meschines) and a
daughter who m. Alfred of Lincoln.
(c) Note that Keats-Rohan Note 5 [Sept 25 posting by KHF333]
mentions
"Robert" Malet' s having a sister "Beatrice."
Is the marriage of #32 to Helsilia Crispin generally accepted by
contemporary scholars?
(I would, of course, also appreciate any critique of the compiled
Ahnentafel.)
Richard Borthwick
parents in his foundation charter for Eye Priory (given before 1105)[1].
William is said in Domesday Book to have died in about 1071 subjugating the
natives in the Fens. Though Miles Crispin a monk at Bec in 1120s & 30s in
his *Miraculum de nobili genere Crispini* thought Esilia Crispin was the
mother of William Malet. The general consensus is that Miles got it wrong [2].
(B) There is no known genealogical connection between the Somerset Malets
and and the Suffolk lot. Sanders entertains (solely on onomastic grounds)
the possibility (and that is all he entertains) of a relationship between
the two families. The earliest known Somerset Malet is Robert i.e your #8. [3]
(C) It is thought that Robert Malet son of William & Esilia and the Domesday
lord of Eye was master chamberlain to Henry I since he attests as
chamberlain in a notification of 13 Feb 1104/05. There is no indication that
his father William Malet held that post, though William fitz Ralph (de
Tancarville) held that office in Normandy in the reigns of Williams I & II. [4]
(D) Beatrice (to whom you refer) dau. of Esilia and William Malet and sister
of Lucy's mother m. viscount William of Arques (d.about 1090), lord of
Folkestone, Kent [5].
(E) Dr Keats-Rohan has a genealogical table entitled 'Suggested
Relationships of the Malet Family [6] and this (and the genealogical
material in the body of the paper) should be read (as K-R suggests, 36
note153) alongside the essay by Green which is full of interesting things [7].
[1] K Keats-Rohan "Domesday Book and the Malets: Patrimony and the Private
Histories of Public Lives" in *Nottingham Medieval Studies* xli (1997), 18.
[2] ibid., 21-22.
[3] I J Sanders *English Baronies: A Study of their Origin and Descent,
1066-1327*, 38 & note 7; cf. (if applicable - I haven't checked) Keats-Rohan
ibid., 13 note 4.
[4] CP X: Appendix, 47-51.
[5] ibid., 48 (Table I); Keats-Rohan ibid., 48-49, 53; Sanders ibid., 45.
[6] Keats-Rohan ibid., 53.
[7] J Green "Lords of the Norman Vexin" in *War and Government in the Middle
Ages: Essays in honour of J O Prestwich* (Boydell & Brewer/Barnes &
Noble:Bury St Edmunds, 1984) edited by J Gillingham and J C Holt, 47-62.
Todd A. Farmerie
> 8. Robert Malet of Curry Malet, Somerset, d. by 1156 (AR7:"thought [to
> be] gr. s. [of] William Malet, d. 1071")
> 16. Gilbert Malet (BP and Wurts) [William with wife Helewise in
> Turton] [entry not in AR7.]
> 32. William Malet (AR7, BP, and Wurts) [Robert in Turton] In co
> Lincoln bef 1066; was granted the Barony of Eye, Suffolk. and d. 1071.
> BP and Wurts says 32 and 33 had a daughter Beatrice (m. William de
> Arches) and 2 sons: (a) Robert, Lord Malet, Great Chamberlain, Lord of
> Eye in Suffolk 1086, then banished and disinherited after 1105; and
> (b) Gilbert.
> 33. Hesilia Crispin (BP, Wurts and Turton), living 1086
> My primary question is: Taking into account probable inaccuracies in
> my limited secondary sources, is the William Malet who d. 1071 and
> shown as #32 above the same person as the one called simply "William
> Malet" in the recent multiple postings?
The William Malet being discussed is the one who died 1071. However, a
connection between Robert Malet of Curry Malet and this William, while
not unlikely, is unknown. I know of no evidence that William had a son
Gilbert, and this is probably a late invention.
> These postings, of course,
> had the following about "William Malet":
>
> (a) His mother was probably an English woman and probably closely
> related to Godiva.
> (b) Had sons Robert and Durand; a daughter who m. Torold of
> Lincoln (father of Lucy who 3m. Ranulf de Meschines) and a
> daughter who m. Alfred of Lincoln.
> (c) Note that Keats-Rohan Note 5 [Sept 25 posting by KHF333]
> mentions
> "Robert" Malet' s having a sister "Beatrice."
>
> Is the marriage of #32 to Helsilia Crispin generally accepted by
> contemporary scholars?
Yes. This is accepted by Keats-Rohan's article.
taf
rleutner
descendancy--the Robert of Somerset-William d 1071
business--which has been so ably doubted for so many years.
My guess is that it persists mainly because MALET is so
utterly surname-like in a sea of people whose "names" are so
unlike "real names", and of course also simply because the
elder William is a Domesday person.
Bob Leutner Iowa City IA
robert-...@uiowa.edu
On Sun, 18
Nigel Barker
Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes
.
>>To pose a question about the Malet line, I compiled a brief Ahnentafel
>>on William Malet the MC Surety (also an ancestor through his daughter
>>Hawise and both her husbands, Hugh Poyntz and Robert Muscegros).
>>
>> My sources were AR7 (7th Edition of Ancestral Roots of Certain
>> American Colonists), BP (Burke's Peerage and Baronetage),
>> Turton, and Wurts' MAGNA CHARTA (I'm looking forward to the
>> 1999 publication of Farris and Richardson's MAGNA CHARTA book)
>>
>>1. William Malet of Curry Malet , the Magna Charta surety, m. Alice
>>Bassett
>>2. Gilbert Malet of Curry Malet (AR7, BP, and Wurts) [William in
>>Turton]
>>3. Alice Picot
>>4. William Malet, d. 1169
>>6. Ralph Picot
>>be] gr. s. [of] William Malet, d. 1071")
>>16. Gilbert Malet (BP and Wurts) [William with wife Helewise in
>>Turton] [entry not in AR7.]
>>32. William Malet (AR7, BP, and Wurts) [Robert in Turton] In co
>>Lincoln bef 1066; was granted the Barony of Eye, Suffolk. and d. 1071.
>>BP and Wurts says 32 and 33 had a daughter Beatrice (m. William de
>>Arches) and 2 sons: (a) Robert, Lord Malet, Great Chamberlain, Lord of
>>Eye in Suffolk 1086, then banished and disinherited after 1105; and
>>(b) Gilbert.
"Notices of an English Branch of the Malet Family" published for private
circulation in 1885. This book is based, and includes a detailed
schedule of, family papers and charters.
Arthur Malet was writing at a time when Walter Scott had made many
"landed" british families consider their past and some to re-adopt the
"de" as a prefix to their surnames. Charles Kingsley had published
"Hereward the Wake" 19 years before. William Malet appears in the book
by Kingsley and Ivo de Tailbois in books by both Scott and Kingsley . It
would be important for Arthur to justify the connections of his family
to William I.
This said, Arthur Malet shows the following line:
William Malet I has a brother -
Durand Malet. Arthur Malet states, "Durand Malet has, I believe, been
accepted by many genealogists as the brother of William Malet.....but I
am not aware that actual proof of the fact has been hitherto brought
forward". Durand is a tenant in capite in Domesday with holdings in
Lincolnshore of (inter alia) Irby-on-Humber, Rothewelle and Willingore.
The Malet name continued in Lincolnshire.
[A most interesting charter dated 1156, (Burton's Mon. Ebor., 75) states
that Hugh, son of YVO MALET, with the consent of his mother Margaret,
and of Ralph, his son and heir, gave two oxgangs in Rothewelle to Whitby
Abbey". The introduction of this Ivo Malet is put foward by Freeman as
the key to explaining the Countess Lucy connection. It is also
intersting to note that as late as January 4, 1229 Henry III granted a
charter in favour of Ralph de Trublevill of land in Coleby, Lincolnshire
"late of William Malet of Gerardvill,...... until the King restore it to
the heirs of the said William.......". The Norman Malets clearly
continued to have interests in Lincolnshire (and also in Hertfordshire -
see similar charters for Willey and Lilley of 1226 and 1227), until the
loss of Normandy.
William I is clearly stated as married to Hesilia Crispin and as having
had three children by her :
1. Robert I married to Elisee de Brionne, first Great Chamberlain of
England and once considered to have been banished from England by Henry
I but more likely died in possession of his estates. [I have an
increasing feeling that many of stated holdings of William I and Robert
I were Ex Officio holdings, which attached to an administrative
responsibility and not as a long term patrimony; this would explain much
of what happened to the Yorkshire Lands of William I and Robert I's
Honour of Eye].
Robert I had, according to Arthur Malet, two sons (1) William II Malet
who was banished to his Norman Estates but who, according to Arthur
Malet was succeeded by a son name, Hugo Fitchet, whose son, Baldwin
describes himself in two charters as "Baldwin Malet son of Hugh Fitchet
of Enmore" and (2) Ernest Malet of Graville, Normandy, from whom the
Malets de Graville are descended. [The Graville descent is shown by A.
Borel d'Hauterive in "Notice Historique et Genealogique sur la Maison de
Malet" as - Ernest's son was Robert II Malet de Graville and his son,
Robert III, married Hele or Alix daughter of Robert III comte d'Alencon
by whom he had, inter alia, Robert Malet IV, married to Agnes de
Tancarville, sister of Rabel de Tancarville Grand Chamberlain of
Normandy; another Great Chamberlain connection, et seq.,]
2. Gilbert, who is held out as the founder of the "Baronial Malets" of
Magna Carta fame. Gilbert is mentioned as her brother in a charter of
Beatrice Malet in regard to Radingfield, Suffolk. There is no evidence
to confirm any link to the Baronial Malets of Somerset of which I am
aware.
[Arthur Malet refers to a Return made by the Abbot of Gastonbury in 12
Henry II (1166) which states that a Robert Malet (clearly not Robert I,
since this Robert is stated as having Petitioned the Pope by letter in
or about 1150 regarding the state of a causway to Glastonbury), held
land in Somerset, formerly held by Roger de Corcelle and which, at the
date of the Return, was held by William Malet. It is this Robert who can
be stated, with some certainty, to be the first of the Baronial line,
whih is well known and authenticated]
2. Beatrice who married William de Archis from whom the de Veres, later
Great Chamberlains of England are descended.
It is clear that there is reasonable evidence for William I and Robert
I's relationship as father and son. Durand may be a brother or son of
William I. Gilbert I may or may not be a son of William I though
Beatrice is almost certainly William I's daughter.
William II is most probably Robert I's son and William II may have been
the father of Ernest de Graville.
The Somerset connection to William I and Robert I is certainly not
clear. Even the Norman line, in the early 1100s is obscure. Add some
additional "wild card" Malets who appear in the later part of the 1100s/
early 1200s as having a connection with (inter alia) Wallingford Castle
and Malet la Fontaine, near Graville, whose Arms, of sable three buckles
or [sometimes argent] distinguish them from the line of the Malet de
Graville, whose Arms are gules three buckles or.
After the C12 the well documented Malet Lines become reasonably clear
but still leave plenty of room for research in suspected cadet lines of
Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Flanders and, of course Normandy.
--
Nigel Barker
Reedpcgen
>It is clear that there is reasonable evidence for William I and Robert
>I's relationship as father and son. Durand may be a brother or son of
>William I. Gilbert I may or may not be a son of William I though
>Beatrice is almost certainly William I's daughter.
>
In her chart of 'Suggested Relationships of the Malet Family' Keats-Rohan shows
William I who married Esilia Crispin as father of Robert I, Durand, Gilbert,
Beatrice and others.
>
>William II is most probably Robert I's son and William II may have been
>the father of Ernest de Graville.
>
She shows William II Malet as son of Robert I by his first wife Matilda (de
Moncanisy), and Robert II Malet and Hugh (a monk) as sons of Robert I by his
second wife Emille (de Montfort?).
William II is shown as being father of Matthew de Graville, William (a monk)
and Robert.
Keats-Rohan suggests, in note 201, that there was a Robert Malet attesting
"charters of Abbot Anselm of Bury St. Edmunds c. 1120-1148 (Feudal Book, 115,
120), and numerous charters of King Stephen, lord of Eye, during the same
period (RRAN ii, nos. 88, 274, 594, 749, 944); he was perhaps the Robert Malet
who aquired the honour of Curry Malet in Somerset, dying c. 1155 (Sanders,
Baronies, 3-9)."
Keats-Rohan concludes, in part, "There are no easy answers to the greatest of
the problems surrounding Robert I Malet. Probably no incontrovertible answer
will ever be found." As we have to work with what evidence survives, this is
likely to remain the case.
pcr
[from Domesday Book and the Malets: Patrimony and the Private Histories of
Public lives, which has been cited here a number of times]
Richard Borthwick
<snip>
>2. Beatrice who married William de Archis from whom the de Veres, later
>Great Chamberlains of England are descended.
<snip>
>
Arthur Malet is not correct about the Veres descending from Beatrice Malet
if he means by that the descent through Beatrice's homonymous great
granddau. Aubrey III de Vere 1st earl of Oxford did indeed marry in or
before 1139 (as his 1st wife) Beatrice de Bourbourg (b.>1120 d.s.p.>?1146)
great granddau. of Beatrice Malet and William of Arques. The marriage was
dissolved ca.1146, she remarried but died a few days later. Aubrey III's
heirs descend from his 3rd wife Agnes dau. of Henry de Essex lord of
Rayleigh & Haughley.
[CP X:199-205; ibid. Appendix J 116-118; ibid. Appendix F 47-56 (on the
office of master chamberlain)]
Nigel Barker
Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes
office of Great Chamberlain in both England and Normandy does, I
believe, still hold true.
--
Nigel Barker