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Re: Was Rev. John Harte the son of David Heart of Rusland/ Ruseland/ Rustland, Orkney?
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Brad Verity
May 16, 2012, 2:34:01 PM5/16/12
to
On May 14, 10:40 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> [I caution that this is all very speculative, but following up on it
> might make for some interesting research.]
Thanks for sharing this with us. It's looking pretty solid to me,
which would give you a descent from James V of Scotland, and further
back Henry VII of England.
> My ancestor, Rev. John Hart/ Harte/ Heart, of Taughboyne in Ireland,
> left a monumental inscription that reads:
> This has been translated by William Roulston (in _Familia: Ulster
> Genealogical Review_) as ... "Here lieth the body of Master John Hart
> of noble descent, a noble pastor, a devout philosopher, a
> distinguished devine, who labored over thirty years preaching Christ
> with much success in the church of Taughboyne and, after much
> suffering for Christ's sake, at length gave up his ripened spirit to
> God on 8th January 1687, aged 70 years."
> This got me looking at David Heart, the notary public of Rusland and
> Kirkwall in Orkney. "David Heart, writer there [Kirkwall in Orkney,
> and] William his son" witnessed a document in January 1634 (Laing
> Charters). Also in Kirkwall in 1638 another son witnesses with David
> and William: "David Heart of Rusland, William and Mr. John Heart, his
> sons ..."
This is a great first step - you've proven that David Heart of Rusland
had a son named John. Do you know anything further about your
ancestor Rev. John Hart of Taughboyne? I know there was a big
migration of Scottish to Ireland in the early 17th-century, but I'm
not familiar with the details. It would be great if you could find
something about Rev. John Hart that would tie him back to Orkney.
> Jean Mowat, relict of "David Heart, of Rusland," left an Orkney
> testament proved in 1683.
> I suppose she could be the mother of a man born in 1617, if she was
> very old at her death.
True. Also, there may have been a delay of a few years in proving her
will. Is there a way to get a copy of the will? It could be the
factor that proves your Rev. John Hart of Taughboyne (d. 1687) was her
son.
> A source on the internet shows that John Mowat (d. 1617) of Ollaberry
> was married by 1597 to "Christian Stewart, natural daughter of Robert,
> Earl of Orkney," and had a daughter "Jean, married David Heart,
> sheriff-clerk of Orkney and Shetland." Is the sheriff-clerk the same
> person as the "writer" and notary public?
I would think it highly likely.
> Is the Stewart connection why Reverend John Hart's momumental
> inscription so confidently claims he was "Illustrisso Stemmate
> Oriundi"?
It's definitely a nice clue, but it would be great to have something a
little more solid. Was Taughboyne an Irish parish that had many
Scottish settlers?
> Anent the lybellit sumondis of removeing intentit and persewit befoir
> the said schiref deput at the instance of Jeane Mowat, eldest lawfull
> dochter to Johne Mowat of Hugoland, heritrix of the landis
> underwrittin, and David Heart, writter, his spous, for his entres,
> aganes James Mowat of Burrafirth, Johne Mowat of Hugoland, Andro
> Mowat, his sone and ap[p]rand air, Thomas Johnsone ...
It's great to have proof of the parentage of David Heart's wife.
> This is an action (or subsection of an action?) that continues on for
> a number of pages (and is highly confusing). Page 114 actually
> mentions "the contract of mariage maid betuix umquhill Robert, earle
> of Orknay, for him selff and takand the burdein upoun him for
> Christiane Stewart, his dochter naturall, now spous to the said
> persewar," who, I'm guessing, must be John Mowat of Hugoland.
And it's great to have the proof of the marriage of John Mowat of
Hugoland to Christian Stewart. The following online database does
give an illegitimate daughter Christian wife of "John Mouat of
Hougaland, Shetland" to the Earl of Orkney:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I11962&tree=Nixon
It does not mention a source for either Christian or her husband, and
the only source that it cites for the 1st Earl of Orkney is 'Complete
Peerage'. Are his bastard children discussed in the article on him in
CP? His bio in ODNB states "He had three known mistresses, with all
of whom he had children, in particular Marjorie Sandilands, wife of
the laird of Avochie, mother of three sons and two daughters. These
infidelities, coupled with difficulties over her marriage settlement,
proved too much for Stewart's wife, and at the time of his death she
was suing him for divorce on the grounds of adultery."
The database above names only two of the mistresses, Marjorie
Sandilands and Janet Robertson, with Christian assigned to neither.
Leo's database names those two mistresses, plus two others, Janet
Allardyce and Janet Gray - the Earl clearly enjoyed ladies named
Janet, ironically also the first name of his unhappy wife! - with no
daughter Christian.
It would be nice to try to assign Christian to the proper mistress.
It would seem from the Mowat lawsuit you came across, that the Earl
took pains to settle his daughter Christian in a good marriage. Does
the lawsuit provide any clue as to what date that marriage was
arranged? Since Orkney's bio in ODNB mentions Marjorie Sandilands as
a favourite mistress, I wonder if Christian was one of her two
daughters by him?
> The
> next page mentions "the said persewar [? John Mowat] compeirand be
> David Heart, his procuratour, and the saidis defendaris being lykwayis
> personallie present ...." Someone knowledgeable in Scots law would
> have to say what all this really means. It does seem that David
> Heart's wife Jean was a daughter of John Mowat of Hugoland, and that
> they were married by October 1615.
I agree with your conclusion. Like you, however, I'm not
knowledgeable in Scots law, and actually find the entire royal Stewart
line, with all of the mistresses and bastards (and the bastards of the
bastards) incredibly confusing. I can certainly understand why
Ruvigny chose to leave all of James V's bastards out of his
'Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal'. Yet they are true descendants
of the Stewarts and the Tudors, they led their lives, several
impacting the course of history, and I certainly don't wish to ignore
them. Plus, their lines can lead down to very interesting
descendants. You, for one, should this line prove valid, and a year
or so ago we worked out on this newsgroup a descent from James V of
Scotland for the late actress Susannah York.
The only illegitimate child of James V included in Burke's Peerage
106th Edition (1999) is the Earl of Moray. Your discovery has pointed
the need to study the mistresses and children (both legitimate and
otherwise) of the Earl of Orkney more closely. It seems there were
several marriages between Orkney's daughters and the Sinclairs, in
addition to this Mowat one. I can see from both Leo's database and
the other one I linked to above, that very few are even assigned solid
dates.
Cheers, ----------Brad
> [I caution that this is all very speculative, but following up on it
> might make for some interesting research.]
Thanks for sharing this with us. It's looking pretty solid to me,
which would give you a descent from James V of Scotland, and further
back Henry VII of England.
> My ancestor, Rev. John Hart/ Harte/ Heart, of Taughboyne in Ireland,
> left a monumental inscription that reads:
> This has been translated by William Roulston (in _Familia: Ulster
> Genealogical Review_) as ... "Here lieth the body of Master John Hart
> of noble descent, a noble pastor, a devout philosopher, a
> distinguished devine, who labored over thirty years preaching Christ
> with much success in the church of Taughboyne and, after much
> suffering for Christ's sake, at length gave up his ripened spirit to
> God on 8th January 1687, aged 70 years."
> This got me looking at David Heart, the notary public of Rusland and
> Kirkwall in Orkney. "David Heart, writer there [Kirkwall in Orkney,
> and] William his son" witnessed a document in January 1634 (Laing
> Charters). Also in Kirkwall in 1638 another son witnesses with David
> and William: "David Heart of Rusland, William and Mr. John Heart, his
> sons ..."
This is a great first step - you've proven that David Heart of Rusland
had a son named John. Do you know anything further about your
ancestor Rev. John Hart of Taughboyne? I know there was a big
migration of Scottish to Ireland in the early 17th-century, but I'm
not familiar with the details. It would be great if you could find
something about Rev. John Hart that would tie him back to Orkney.
> Jean Mowat, relict of "David Heart, of Rusland," left an Orkney
> testament proved in 1683.
> I suppose she could be the mother of a man born in 1617, if she was
> very old at her death.
True. Also, there may have been a delay of a few years in proving her
will. Is there a way to get a copy of the will? It could be the
factor that proves your Rev. John Hart of Taughboyne (d. 1687) was her
son.
> A source on the internet shows that John Mowat (d. 1617) of Ollaberry
> was married by 1597 to "Christian Stewart, natural daughter of Robert,
> Earl of Orkney," and had a daughter "Jean, married David Heart,
> sheriff-clerk of Orkney and Shetland." Is the sheriff-clerk the same
> person as the "writer" and notary public?
I would think it highly likely.
> Is the Stewart connection why Reverend John Hart's momumental
> inscription so confidently claims he was "Illustrisso Stemmate
> Oriundi"?
It's definitely a nice clue, but it would be great to have something a
little more solid. Was Taughboyne an Irish parish that had many
Scottish settlers?
> Anent the lybellit sumondis of removeing intentit and persewit befoir
> the said schiref deput at the instance of Jeane Mowat, eldest lawfull
> dochter to Johne Mowat of Hugoland, heritrix of the landis
> underwrittin, and David Heart, writter, his spous, for his entres,
> aganes James Mowat of Burrafirth, Johne Mowat of Hugoland, Andro
> Mowat, his sone and ap[p]rand air, Thomas Johnsone ...
It's great to have proof of the parentage of David Heart's wife.
> This is an action (or subsection of an action?) that continues on for
> a number of pages (and is highly confusing). Page 114 actually
> mentions "the contract of mariage maid betuix umquhill Robert, earle
> of Orknay, for him selff and takand the burdein upoun him for
> Christiane Stewart, his dochter naturall, now spous to the said
> persewar," who, I'm guessing, must be John Mowat of Hugoland.
And it's great to have the proof of the marriage of John Mowat of
Hugoland to Christian Stewart. The following online database does
give an illegitimate daughter Christian wife of "John Mouat of
Hougaland, Shetland" to the Earl of Orkney:
http://histfam.familysearch.org/getperson.php?personID=I11962&tree=Nixon
It does not mention a source for either Christian or her husband, and
the only source that it cites for the 1st Earl of Orkney is 'Complete
Peerage'. Are his bastard children discussed in the article on him in
CP? His bio in ODNB states "He had three known mistresses, with all
of whom he had children, in particular Marjorie Sandilands, wife of
the laird of Avochie, mother of three sons and two daughters. These
infidelities, coupled with difficulties over her marriage settlement,
proved too much for Stewart's wife, and at the time of his death she
was suing him for divorce on the grounds of adultery."
The database above names only two of the mistresses, Marjorie
Sandilands and Janet Robertson, with Christian assigned to neither.
Leo's database names those two mistresses, plus two others, Janet
Allardyce and Janet Gray - the Earl clearly enjoyed ladies named
Janet, ironically also the first name of his unhappy wife! - with no
daughter Christian.
It would be nice to try to assign Christian to the proper mistress.
It would seem from the Mowat lawsuit you came across, that the Earl
took pains to settle his daughter Christian in a good marriage. Does
the lawsuit provide any clue as to what date that marriage was
arranged? Since Orkney's bio in ODNB mentions Marjorie Sandilands as
a favourite mistress, I wonder if Christian was one of her two
daughters by him?
> The
> next page mentions "the said persewar [? John Mowat] compeirand be
> David Heart, his procuratour, and the saidis defendaris being lykwayis
> personallie present ...." Someone knowledgeable in Scots law would
> have to say what all this really means. It does seem that David
> Heart's wife Jean was a daughter of John Mowat of Hugoland, and that
> they were married by October 1615.
I agree with your conclusion. Like you, however, I'm not
knowledgeable in Scots law, and actually find the entire royal Stewart
line, with all of the mistresses and bastards (and the bastards of the
bastards) incredibly confusing. I can certainly understand why
Ruvigny chose to leave all of James V's bastards out of his
'Plantagenet Roll of the Blood Royal'. Yet they are true descendants
of the Stewarts and the Tudors, they led their lives, several
impacting the course of history, and I certainly don't wish to ignore
them. Plus, their lines can lead down to very interesting
descendants. You, for one, should this line prove valid, and a year
or so ago we worked out on this newsgroup a descent from James V of
Scotland for the late actress Susannah York.
The only illegitimate child of James V included in Burke's Peerage
106th Edition (1999) is the Earl of Moray. Your discovery has pointed
the need to study the mistresses and children (both legitimate and
otherwise) of the Earl of Orkney more closely. It seems there were
several marriages between Orkney's daughters and the Sinclairs, in
addition to this Mowat one. I can see from both Leo's database and
the other one I linked to above, that very few are even assigned solid
dates.
Cheers, ----------Brad
Janet Wolfe
May 16, 2012, 3:26:39 PM5/16/12
to
The will of Jeane Mowat is available on the Scotland's People website:
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
I have downloaded it, but I am finding the handwriting difficult to
read. James Heart is mentioned many times, but so far I have not seen
any mention of John Heart. I have started a transcription which I'll
post if I decipher enough of the testament to make reading my
transcription useful.
One of the Fasti books proposes that John Heart/Hart may have been the
son of the John Hart who was executed in Glasgow in 1666. The Reverend
John Hart had posts in Scotland in the 1640s and early 1650s. He went
to Ireland about 1656.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk
I have downloaded it, but I am finding the handwriting difficult to
read. James Heart is mentioned many times, but so far I have not seen
any mention of John Heart. I have started a transcription which I'll
post if I decipher enough of the testament to make reading my
transcription useful.
One of the Fasti books proposes that John Heart/Hart may have been the
son of the John Hart who was executed in Glasgow in 1666. The Reverend
John Hart had posts in Scotland in the 1640s and early 1650s. He went
to Ireland about 1656.
Message has been deleted
John
May 16, 2012, 5:04:08 PM5/16/12
to
6:574-5 gives him 10 illegitimate children - 7 sons and 3 daughters.
Only four sons (and no daughters) are assigned mothers: Janet
Robinson is given James of Graemsay, and Marjorie Sandilands is given
George of Eynhallow, Edward of Brugh, and David of How.
The second illegitimate daughter listed is Christian, who "married
John Mouat of Hougaland in Shetland, and, as his widow, was living,
and in feud with her brother-in-law, in 1634".
It sounds like John Brandon may well and truly be a "Royal
Bastard". :-)
John
May 16, 2012, 5:20:41 PM5/16/12
to
adds two more illegitimate daughters, Jean and Katherine, both by
Marjorie Sandilands.
Janet Wolfe
May 16, 2012, 5:58:26 PM5/16/12
to
In addition to John B. and me, the Reverend John Heart/Hart has many
American descendants. John Heart/Hart's daughter Agnes married the
Reverend Robert Craighead, also a minister from Scotland who served in
Ireland. He, too, was a graduate of St. Andrews. Robert Craighead's
daughter Katherine married the Reverend William Homes. Homes was a
minister on Martha's Vineyard from 1715 until his death in 1746.
Several of the Homes children married into early Martha's Vineyard
families, and son Robert Homes married a sister of Benjamin Franklin.
While William Homes and his family did not settle in the New World
until after 1700, William had taught on Martha's Vineyard in the late
1680s before returning to Scotland to earn his degree in Edinburgh.
Katherine's brother, Thomas Craighead was also a minister. He arrived
in Boston in 1714 with the Homes family and settled in Pennsylvania. I
think that author Jean Craighead George, who died yesterday at age 92,
is a descendant of Thomas Craighead.
American descendants. John Heart/Hart's daughter Agnes married the
Reverend Robert Craighead, also a minister from Scotland who served in
Ireland. He, too, was a graduate of St. Andrews. Robert Craighead's
daughter Katherine married the Reverend William Homes. Homes was a
minister on Martha's Vineyard from 1715 until his death in 1746.
Several of the Homes children married into early Martha's Vineyard
families, and son Robert Homes married a sister of Benjamin Franklin.
While William Homes and his family did not settle in the New World
until after 1700, William had taught on Martha's Vineyard in the late
1680s before returning to Scotland to earn his degree in Edinburgh.
Katherine's brother, Thomas Craighead was also a minister. He arrived
in Boston in 1714 with the Homes family and settled in Pennsylvania. I
think that author Jean Craighead George, who died yesterday at age 92,
is a descendant of Thomas Craighead.
Derek Howard
May 17, 2012, 5:33:36 AM5/17/12
to
On May 16, 10:26 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> She doesn't seem to have left a will (and neither did her husband, or
> her son-in-law David Heart of Rusland).
David Heart of Rusland was named a commissioner for the sheriffdom of
Orkney in the 1643 Act for the committees of war in the shires (NAS.
PA8/1, f.99r-106r, in The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to
1707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2012), 1643/6/91).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1643/6/91 )
And again as a Commissioner for the same sheriffdom in the 1644 Act
appointing the committees of war in the several shires and divisions
of the kingdom (NAS. PA2/23, f.88v-92r, in RPS, 1644/6/225).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1644/6/225
And again the 1649 Act for putting the kingdom in a posture of defence
(NAS. PA2/24, f.121v-129v. in RPS, 1649/1/133).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
Derek Howard
<snip>
> She doesn't seem to have left a will (and neither did her husband, or
> her son-in-law David Heart of Rusland).
David Heart of Rusland was named a commissioner for the sheriffdom of
Orkney in the 1643 Act for the committees of war in the shires (NAS.
PA8/1, f.99r-106r, in The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to
1707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2012), 1643/6/91).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1643/6/91 )
And again as a Commissioner for the same sheriffdom in the 1644 Act
appointing the committees of war in the several shires and divisions
of the kingdom (NAS. PA2/23, f.88v-92r, in RPS, 1644/6/225).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1644/6/225
And again the 1649 Act for putting the kingdom in a posture of defence
(NAS. PA2/24, f.121v-129v. in RPS, 1649/1/133).
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
Derek Howard
Janet Wolfe
May 17, 2012, 10:52:14 AM5/17/12
to
On May 17, 5:33 am, Derek Howard <dhow...@skynet.be> wrote:
> On May 16, 10:26 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > She doesn't seem to have left a will (and neither did her husband, or
> > her son-in-law David Heart of Rusland).
>
> David Heart of Rusland was named a commissioner for the sheriffdom of
> Orkney in the 1643 Act for the committees of war in the shires (NAS.
> PA8/1, f.99r-106r, in The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to
> 1707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2012), 1643/6/91).http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1643/6/91)
>
> And again as a Commissioner for the same sheriffdom in the 1644 Act
> appointing the committees of war in the several shires and divisions
> of the kingdom (NAS. PA2/23, f.88v-92r, in RPS, 1644/6/225).http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1644/6/225
> On May 16, 10:26 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>
> > She doesn't seem to have left a will (and neither did her husband, or
> > her son-in-law David Heart of Rusland).
>
> David Heart of Rusland was named a commissioner for the sheriffdom of
> Orkney in the 1643 Act for the committees of war in the shires (NAS.
> PA8/1, f.99r-106r, in The Records of the Parliaments of Scotland to
> 1707, K.M. Brown et al eds (St Andrews, 2007-2012), 1643/6/91).http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1643/6/91)
>
> And again as a Commissioner for the same sheriffdom in the 1644 Act
> appointing the committees of war in the several shires and divisions
>
> And again the 1649 Act for putting the kingdom in a posture of defence
> (NAS. PA2/24, f.121v-129v. in RPS, 1649/1/133).http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
>
> Derek Howard
Thanks, Derek.
> And again the 1649 Act for putting the kingdom in a posture of defence
> (NAS. PA2/24, f.121v-129v. in RPS, 1649/1/133).http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
>
> Derek Howard
Does the document quoted in the link below suggest that David Heart
was dead by 28 July 1663?
http://books.google.com/books?id=LLYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA102
(near the bottom) "coppied, collationat, and attestit be the deciest
David Heart, notare publict, and William Heart, notare publict ..."
Janet Wolfe
May 17, 2012, 11:38:25 AM5/17/12
to
Here is an alternative candidate for the father and grandfather of
John Heart/Hart:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
June 1633 "to the late Sir William Hart of Preston, knight, justice
depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to the
said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
Here is the pardon (1690) for the John Hart of Westquarter (and
others) executed in 1666:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
(second act on the page)
(Too late for the Rev. John Hart (d. 1688) or his widow Agnes Baxter
(d. 1689) to benefit from any restoration of the elder John Hart's
land, but their daughter Agnes and her spouse Robert Craighead did
flee to Glasgow after Robert participated in defying (ex-)King James'
army by closing the gates of Londonderry in 1689.)
John Heart/Hart:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
June 1633 "to the late Sir William Hart of Preston, knight, justice
depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to the
said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
Here is the pardon (1690) for the John Hart of Westquarter (and
others) executed in 1666:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
(second act on the page)
(Too late for the Rev. John Hart (d. 1688) or his widow Agnes Baxter
(d. 1689) to benefit from any restoration of the elder John Hart's
land, but their daughter Agnes and her spouse Robert Craighead did
flee to Glasgow after Robert participated in defying (ex-)King James'
army by closing the gates of Londonderry in 1689.)
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Derek Howard
May 18, 2012, 4:26:16 AM5/18/12
to
On May 18, 1:25 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> have to remember that fact, and in "Mr." John Heart in Kirkwall--
> called Mr. in a witness list when his father and elder brother were
> not--we definitely have a strong candidate for the man who had just
> received his degree at St. Andrews University.
> the martyr of Glasford any too convincing. For one thing, it is a
> mere suggestion, which only occurs in the Fasti for Hamilton (very
> close to Glasgow and Glasford), as it were idly thrown in by someone
> who was aware there was "another John Hart" in the local vicinity.
> The Fasti for other places he served, Crail, Dunino, Dunkeld, do not
> mention the martyr John Hart of Glasford.
>
> Janet nicely summarized the two Orkney cases for me (I probably didn't
> read them very closely for fear of noticing that Jean might have been
> by another wife than Christian Stewart ... plus legalese is never fun,
> especially in a "foreign language").
>
> She says:
>
> I think there are two court cases, both on 4 October 1615.
>
> In the first case, Jeane Mowat and her spouse David Heart vs James
> Mowat of Burrafirth, Johne Mowat of Hugoland, Andro Mowat, his son and
> apparent heir, Thomas Johnsone in Liaskoill, Andro Erasmussone in
> Stow, James ___ in Stow, Donald Williamsone in Brawick, and Andro
> Olasone in Brawick, the plaintiffs want the defendents to vacate the
> land that Jeane has as oldest lawful daughter and heiress of her
> father Johne Mowat of Hugoland. (It does not say Jeane’s father Johne
> is deceased so I think he is living and is the same Johne Mowat listed
> as one of the defendants.)
>
> The lands, in the parish of Nortmaving in Yetland, are named as
> follows:
>
> Houssayord
> North Hous in Ure
> EsterHous in Ure
> Liaskaill
> Feall in Ure
> Breweik
> Stow
>
> The plaintiffs showed the instrument of sasine (deed), dated 2
> October 1613, giving possession of the said lands to Jeane. The
> sheriff determined that Jean and David should peacefully enter the
> lands and the defendants (? except James Mowat whose claim will be
> considered later?) should remove themselves.
>
> In the second case, Johne Mowat of Hugoland vs Johne Nevein of
> Skowisburch and James Mowat of Burrafirth, the plaintiff claims that
> the defendants have his documents and refuse to give them back. John
> Nevein says he gave the document back to James. James agrees that John
> Nevein returned the documents to him. The sheriff determines that
> James should return the documents to the plaintiff.
>
> The documents are described as follows:
>
> --A charter of confirmation to the late Andro Mowat, father of the
> plaintiff, of most of his lands in Yetland
>
> --The instrument of sasine following the confirmation
>
> --The marriage contract between the late Robert, earl of Orkney, for
> himself and his natural daughter Christiane Stewart, now spouse of the
> plaintiff, on the one part, and the late Andro Mowat and the
> plaintiff, on the other part
>
> --The charter of alienation made by the late Andro to the plaintiff,
> his son, whereby Andro granted to his son John, the plaintiff, all his
> lands in the marriage contract
>
> Etc.
>
> Janet commented helpfully on this: "It seems likely that Jeane’s
> lands were her marriage settlement. If so, then Jeane may have married
> David by 2 October 1613, the date of the sasine. That would provide
> time for John to be born about 1617 and after William who witnessed a
> document in 1634."
The above explains the grant to David Hairt, scribe, of lands in
Werster Howgoland, Olaberry in the parish of Northmavin, lordship of
Zetland, sheriffdom of of Orkney and Zetland. “que fuerunt Andree
Mowatt, filii natu maximi et heredis quondam Joannis M de Howgoland”.
“The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1620-1633”, RMSRS, v 8,
1894, p 179, no 523. 1623
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi08scot#page/178
Another concession in 1624 by the Crown to Mr Gilbert Mowatt, minister
of the word of God at Northmavin, of various lands “que fuerunt Andree
Mowatt de Skea, filii et heredis quondam Jo. M. de Hougaland”
RMSRS, v 8, p 212, no 612
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi08scot#page/212
A David Heart "scriba signet regii" is mentioned in relation to
writing various charters in 1605. Perhaps coincidentally a “M Wil.
Heart de Levilandis principali justiciario deputato” also appears
RMSRS, v 7, p 64, no 177.
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi07scot#page/64
“M. Wil. Hart de Livilandis and Davide Hart servitor dicti M. Wil.”
Are mentioned as witnesses
RMSRS, v 7, p 340, no 929 http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi07scot#page/340
But are the above cases of “the name’s the same”?
It may be worth exploring the Registers of the Great Seal further.
DerekHoward
> On May 17, 11:38 am, Janet Wolfe <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
>
> > Here is an alternative candidate for the father and grandfather of
> > John Heart/Hart:http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
> > June 1633 "to the late Sir William Hart of Preston, knight, justice
> > depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
> > spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to the
> > said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
>
> Is there any sign this (? these) John Hart(s) were minister(s)? We
>
> > Here is an alternative candidate for the father and grandfather of
> > John Heart/Hart:http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
> > June 1633 "to the late Sir William Hart of Preston, knight, justice
> > depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
> > spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to the
> > said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
>
> have to remember that fact, and in "Mr." John Heart in Kirkwall--
> called Mr. in a witness list when his father and elder brother were
> not--we definitely have a strong candidate for the man who had just
> received his degree at St. Andrews University.
>
>
>
> > Here is the pardon (1690) for the John Hart of Westquarter (and
> > others) executed in 1666:http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
> > (second act on the page)
> > (Too late for the Rev. John Hart (d. 1688) or his widow Agnes Baxter
> > (d. 1689) to benefit from any restoration of the elder John Hart's
> > land, but their daughter Agnes and her spouse Robert Craighead did
> > flee to Glasgow after Robert participated in defying (ex-)King James'
> > army by closing the gates of Londonderry in 1689.)
>
> I don't find the supposed connection of Rev. John Hart to John Hart
>
>
> > Here is the pardon (1690) for the John Hart of Westquarter (and
> > others) executed in 1666:http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1649/1/133
> > (second act on the page)
> > (Too late for the Rev. John Hart (d. 1688) or his widow Agnes Baxter
> > (d. 1689) to benefit from any restoration of the elder John Hart's
> > land, but their daughter Agnes and her spouse Robert Craighead did
> > flee to Glasgow after Robert participated in defying (ex-)King James'
> > army by closing the gates of Londonderry in 1689.)
>
> the martyr of Glasford any too convincing. For one thing, it is a
> mere suggestion, which only occurs in the Fasti for Hamilton (very
> close to Glasgow and Glasford), as it were idly thrown in by someone
> who was aware there was "another John Hart" in the local vicinity.
> The Fasti for other places he served, Crail, Dunino, Dunkeld, do not
> mention the martyr John Hart of Glasford.
>
> Janet nicely summarized the two Orkney cases for me (I probably didn't
> read them very closely for fear of noticing that Jean might have been
> by another wife than Christian Stewart ... plus legalese is never fun,
> especially in a "foreign language").
>
> She says:
>
> I think there are two court cases, both on 4 October 1615.
>
> In the first case, Jeane Mowat and her spouse David Heart vs James
> Mowat of Burrafirth, Johne Mowat of Hugoland, Andro Mowat, his son and
> apparent heir, Thomas Johnsone in Liaskoill, Andro Erasmussone in
> Stow, James ___ in Stow, Donald Williamsone in Brawick, and Andro
> Olasone in Brawick, the plaintiffs want the defendents to vacate the
> land that Jeane has as oldest lawful daughter and heiress of her
> father Johne Mowat of Hugoland. (It does not say Jeane’s father Johne
> is deceased so I think he is living and is the same Johne Mowat listed
> as one of the defendants.)
>
> The lands, in the parish of Nortmaving in Yetland, are named as
> follows:
>
> Houssayord
> North Hous in Ure
> EsterHous in Ure
> Liaskaill
> Feall in Ure
> Breweik
> Stow
>
> The plaintiffs showed the instrument of sasine (deed), dated 2
> October 1613, giving possession of the said lands to Jeane. The
> sheriff determined that Jean and David should peacefully enter the
> lands and the defendants (? except James Mowat whose claim will be
> considered later?) should remove themselves.
>
> In the second case, Johne Mowat of Hugoland vs Johne Nevein of
> Skowisburch and James Mowat of Burrafirth, the plaintiff claims that
> the defendants have his documents and refuse to give them back. John
> Nevein says he gave the document back to James. James agrees that John
> Nevein returned the documents to him. The sheriff determines that
> James should return the documents to the plaintiff.
>
> The documents are described as follows:
>
> --A charter of confirmation to the late Andro Mowat, father of the
> plaintiff, of most of his lands in Yetland
>
> --The instrument of sasine following the confirmation
>
> --The marriage contract between the late Robert, earl of Orkney, for
> himself and his natural daughter Christiane Stewart, now spouse of the
> plaintiff, on the one part, and the late Andro Mowat and the
> plaintiff, on the other part
>
> --The charter of alienation made by the late Andro to the plaintiff,
> his son, whereby Andro granted to his son John, the plaintiff, all his
> lands in the marriage contract
>
> Etc.
>
> Janet commented helpfully on this: "It seems likely that Jeane’s
> lands were her marriage settlement. If so, then Jeane may have married
> David by 2 October 1613, the date of the sasine. That would provide
> time for John to be born about 1617 and after William who witnessed a
> document in 1634."
The above explains the grant to David Hairt, scribe, of lands in
Werster Howgoland, Olaberry in the parish of Northmavin, lordship of
Zetland, sheriffdom of of Orkney and Zetland. “que fuerunt Andree
Mowatt, filii natu maximi et heredis quondam Joannis M de Howgoland”.
“The Register of the Great Seal of Scotland, 1620-1633”, RMSRS, v 8,
1894, p 179, no 523. 1623
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi08scot#page/178
Another concession in 1624 by the Crown to Mr Gilbert Mowatt, minister
of the word of God at Northmavin, of various lands “que fuerunt Andree
Mowatt de Skea, filii et heredis quondam Jo. M. de Hougaland”
RMSRS, v 8, p 212, no 612
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi08scot#page/212
A David Heart "scriba signet regii" is mentioned in relation to
writing various charters in 1605. Perhaps coincidentally a “M Wil.
Heart de Levilandis principali justiciario deputato” also appears
RMSRS, v 7, p 64, no 177.
http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi07scot#page/64
“M. Wil. Hart de Livilandis and Davide Hart servitor dicti M. Wil.”
Are mentioned as witnesses
RMSRS, v 7, p 340, no 929 http://archive.org/stream/registrummagnisi07scot#page/340
But are the above cases of “the name’s the same”?
It may be worth exploring the Registers of the Great Seal further.
DerekHoward
Message has been deleted
Janet Wolfe
May 18, 2012, 11:38:12 AM5/18/12
to
On May 18, 11:18 am, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Petition by Andro Mowat of Skea, eldest lawfull son of the late John
> Mowat of Hougoland, as follows:--- The late Andrew Mowat, his
> "guidshire" [? grandfather], gave and disponed to the late John Mowat,
An online dictionary of the Scottish language
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
provides the following definition:
GUIDSIRE, n. Also -sirr, gude-, †goodsyr, -shir. A grandfather. Also
great gudesire, a great-grandfather. Arch.
> Petition by Andro Mowat of Skea, eldest lawfull son of the late John
> Mowat of Hougoland, as follows:--- The late Andrew Mowat, his
> "guidshire" [? grandfather], gave and disponed to the late John Mowat,
An online dictionary of the Scottish language
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
provides the following definition:
GUIDSIRE, n. Also -sirr, gude-, †goodsyr, -shir. A grandfather. Also
great gudesire, a great-grandfather. Arch.
Janet Wolfe
May 18, 2012, 3:23:11 PM5/18/12
to
On May 17, 11:38 am, Janet Wolfe <janwo...@umich.edu> wrote:
first one, for an alternative candidate for the father and grandfather
of
John Heart/Hart, should be:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1633/6/178
June 1633 "to the late Sir William Hart of Preston, knight, justice
depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to
the
said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
The second link, pardon (1690) for the John Hart of Westquarter
depute of this realm for the time, Dame Margaret Cairncross, his
spouse, and to John Hart, their son and then apparent heir, and to
the
said John, his nearest and lawful heir succeeding to him ... "
executed in 1666, should be:
http://www.rps.ac.uk/trans/1690/4/80
(second one on the page)
Message has been deleted
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Janet Wolfe
May 19, 2012, 11:22:23 PM5/19/12
to
On May 19, 7:56 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You mentioned thinking the John Hart baptized 1618 in Edinburgh, son
> of John Hart, messenger, might be the college grad:
>
> In 1643, there is mention of John Hart the younger, MESSENGER, as well
> as John Hart, elder, messenger. So unless the minister was slumming
> as "messenger," that baptism could not apply.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=0sEvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA601&dq=%22adie+wyl...
>
> Here are some court records that may mention other Harts, Hartes, or
> Hearts:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ALRKAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1990&dq=%22mr.+joh...
>
> Here are some records that show heirs, including some Hartes:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlKELERXEj8C&pg=PR30&dq=%22gavinus+h...
John, I agree with you that David Heart is the most plausible father
for our Mr. John Heart, minister, found to date.
I, too, have always felt that the John Hart of Westquarter executed in
1666 was chronologically unlikely for exactly the reason you explained
in your previous post.
I had noticed the John Hart, younger, and John Hart, elder,
messengers, in your first link above. I sent the email about the 1618
baptism just to you, so the SGM readers have not seen that
information. The book you cite also also includes a record of the
appointment of David Hart of Rusland as a justice of the peace in
Orkney in 1639 (p. 140).
The records for John Hart, younger, messenger are dated in 1642 and
1643. It might not be surprising for a young minister to work as a
messenger until he was called to a parish. Fasti gives Hart's first
appointment as "22nd March 1643." The John Hart, younger, messenger
dates are 12 Nov 1642, 29 Dec 1642, 14 Jan 1643, and 7 Jun 1643.
Perhaps the entry dated December 1642 is most interesting, as it lists
"witnesses, George Neill, William Mowat, and John Hart, younger,
messengers in Edinburgh" (p. 587).
The dictionary of the Scots language provides the following definition
for the position of messenger, "an officer appointed by the Lord Lyon
King-at-Arms to serve under the Courts of Session and Justiciary, his
chief function being to execute summonses and letters of
Diligence."
There are some additional wills to explore, available on the
Scotland's People website, that may help with sorting out the various
John Harts of Edinburgh. Unfortunately, the wills I've consulted so
far haven't helped much as they were "testaments dative" rather than
real testaments.
If the Gavinus Hart (in your third link) is the same same man as the
one whose will is listed as follows on the Scotland's People website,
then this and the related wills may help sort out the family of the
Westquarter man executed in 1666:
HART GAVANE 23/01/1616 IN LONEHEID OF WESTQUARTER, PARISH OF GLASFUIRD
TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND INVENTORY. [FOLLOWED BY NOTE MARKING WHAT
WAS THEN THE END OF THIS VOLUME OF THE REGISTER.] GLASGOW COMMISSARY
COURT CC9/7/11
Perhaps of the same family:
HART MICHAELL 09/01/1616 WITHIN THE PARISH OF GLASFUIRD. [SEE ALSO
BESSIE CWNYNGHAME, 15/04/1605] TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND INVENTORY
GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/11
There is also this one, perhaps for the daughter of the above Gavin:
HART BESSIE 17/10/1617 DOCHTER TO UMQUHILE GAVIN HART IN HEIDIS OF
GLASFUIRD, WITHIN THE PARISH THEREOF TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND
INVENTORY GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/14
And then this one (another Gavin two years later?),
HART GAVIN 25/08/1618 IN HEIDIS, PARISH OF GLASFUIRD [SEE ALSO BESSIE
HART 17/10/1617; ISSOBELL BARRIE 15/04/1605] TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND
INVENTORY GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/15
(Sorry about the all caps, that's how they are listed on the website.)
These wills are 5 pounds each, but I think that interested readers can
search the list of wills available for free by creating a login on the
website.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
> You mentioned thinking the John Hart baptized 1618 in Edinburgh, son
> of John Hart, messenger, might be the college grad:
>
> In 1643, there is mention of John Hart the younger, MESSENGER, as well
> as John Hart, elder, messenger. So unless the minister was slumming
> as "messenger," that baptism could not apply.
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=0sEvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA601&dq=%22adie+wyl...
>
> Here are some court records that may mention other Harts, Hartes, or
> Hearts:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ALRKAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA1990&dq=%22mr.+joh...
>
> Here are some records that show heirs, including some Hartes:
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=ZlKELERXEj8C&pg=PR30&dq=%22gavinus+h...
John, I agree with you that David Heart is the most plausible father
for our Mr. John Heart, minister, found to date.
I, too, have always felt that the John Hart of Westquarter executed in
1666 was chronologically unlikely for exactly the reason you explained
in your previous post.
I had noticed the John Hart, younger, and John Hart, elder,
messengers, in your first link above. I sent the email about the 1618
baptism just to you, so the SGM readers have not seen that
information. The book you cite also also includes a record of the
appointment of David Hart of Rusland as a justice of the peace in
Orkney in 1639 (p. 140).
The records for John Hart, younger, messenger are dated in 1642 and
1643. It might not be surprising for a young minister to work as a
messenger until he was called to a parish. Fasti gives Hart's first
appointment as "22nd March 1643." The John Hart, younger, messenger
dates are 12 Nov 1642, 29 Dec 1642, 14 Jan 1643, and 7 Jun 1643.
Perhaps the entry dated December 1642 is most interesting, as it lists
"witnesses, George Neill, William Mowat, and John Hart, younger,
messengers in Edinburgh" (p. 587).
The dictionary of the Scots language provides the following definition
for the position of messenger, "an officer appointed by the Lord Lyon
King-at-Arms to serve under the Courts of Session and Justiciary, his
chief function being to execute summonses and letters of
Diligence."
There are some additional wills to explore, available on the
Scotland's People website, that may help with sorting out the various
John Harts of Edinburgh. Unfortunately, the wills I've consulted so
far haven't helped much as they were "testaments dative" rather than
real testaments.
If the Gavinus Hart (in your third link) is the same same man as the
one whose will is listed as follows on the Scotland's People website,
then this and the related wills may help sort out the family of the
Westquarter man executed in 1666:
HART GAVANE 23/01/1616 IN LONEHEID OF WESTQUARTER, PARISH OF GLASFUIRD
TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND INVENTORY. [FOLLOWED BY NOTE MARKING WHAT
WAS THEN THE END OF THIS VOLUME OF THE REGISTER.] GLASGOW COMMISSARY
COURT CC9/7/11
Perhaps of the same family:
HART MICHAELL 09/01/1616 WITHIN THE PARISH OF GLASFUIRD. [SEE ALSO
BESSIE CWNYNGHAME, 15/04/1605] TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND INVENTORY
GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/11
There is also this one, perhaps for the daughter of the above Gavin:
HART BESSIE 17/10/1617 DOCHTER TO UMQUHILE GAVIN HART IN HEIDIS OF
GLASFUIRD, WITHIN THE PARISH THEREOF TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND
INVENTORY GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/14
And then this one (another Gavin two years later?),
HART GAVIN 25/08/1618 IN HEIDIS, PARISH OF GLASFUIRD [SEE ALSO BESSIE
HART 17/10/1617; ISSOBELL BARRIE 15/04/1605] TESTAMENT TESTAMENTAR AND
INVENTORY GLASGOW COMMISSARY COURT CC9/7/15
(Sorry about the all caps, that's how they are listed on the website.)
These wills are 5 pounds each, but I think that interested readers can
search the list of wills available for free by creating a login on the
website.
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
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Derek Howard
May 22, 2012, 5:29:06 AM5/22/12
to
On May 21, 11:55 pm, Johnny Brananas <ravinmaven2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> "At Scallowbankis, 1st July 1623, Registration of Sasine, dated 4th
> June, of Mitchell Sinclair of Aeth, and Agnes Mowat, his spouse ....
> in the twelve merk land of Brewik, belonging to Jean Mowat, eldest
> lawful daughter of the deceased John Mowat of Hwgoland, and sold by
> her, with consent of David Heart, her spouse ..."
> (p. 1)
>
> http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Orkney%20and%20Shetland%20reco...
>
> Page 27 or so deals with David Heart's acquistion of the lands of
> Jean's brother, Andrew Mowat. There are other documents dealing with
> Andrew, one stating he was deceased by the late 1620s.
This document uses the spelling of his surname as "Hereot". Once we
realise David Heart/Heart is also David Hereot/Heriot we can see that
there are other references, (relating to him?) elsewhere acting in a
professional capacity.
For instance:
in 1645 “Mr David Hereot, advocat, there procurator”,
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1645/1/179
1645 “Mr David Heriot, advocat”,
1646 “Mr David Hereot, ther procurator”
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1646/11/242
1649 “Mr David Heriot for the colledge of justice”
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1649/5/102
1661 “Masters David Heriot, …, his procurators”,
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1661/1/83
1661 "Masters David Heriot and …, advocats, their procurators",
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1661/1/466
This search criteria generally may need to be enlarged.
Derek Howard
> "At Scallowbankis, 1st July 1623, Registration of Sasine, dated 4th
> June, of Mitchell Sinclair of Aeth, and Agnes Mowat, his spouse ....
> in the twelve merk land of Brewik, belonging to Jean Mowat, eldest
> lawful daughter of the deceased John Mowat of Hwgoland, and sold by
> her, with consent of David Heart, her spouse ..."
> (p. 1)
>
> http://www.vsnrweb-publications.org.uk/Orkney%20and%20Shetland%20reco...
>
> Page 27 or so deals with David Heart's acquistion of the lands of
> Jean's brother, Andrew Mowat. There are other documents dealing with
> Andrew, one stating he was deceased by the late 1620s.
This document uses the spelling of his surname as "Hereot". Once we
realise David Heart/Heart is also David Hereot/Heriot we can see that
there are other references, (relating to him?) elsewhere acting in a
professional capacity.
For instance:
in 1645 “Mr David Hereot, advocat, there procurator”,
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1645/1/179
1645 “Mr David Heriot, advocat”,
1646 “Mr David Hereot, ther procurator”
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1646/11/242
1649 “Mr David Heriot for the colledge of justice”
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1649/5/102
1661 “Masters David Heriot, …, his procurators”,
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1661/1/83
1661 "Masters David Heriot and …, advocats, their procurators",
http://www.rps.ac.uk/mss/1661/1/466
This search criteria generally may need to be enlarged.
Derek Howard
Message has been deleted
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Janet Wolfe
May 22, 2012, 1:06:42 PM5/22/12
to
I contacted the University of Edinburgh library concerning the 1638
charter in the Laing papers in which one of the witnesses was Mr. John
Heart, son of David Heart of Rusland. The charter is the one
identified by John B. in the first message in this thread, abstracted
in
http://books.google.com/books?id=cFI-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA530
.
The University of Edinburgh special collections librarian says that
this 1638 charter in the Laing papers does include what she thinks are
the genuine signatures of the witnesses. I have ordered an image. I
have the signature of minister John Hart from his matriculation at St.
Andrews in 1634 and his graduation in 1637. So, it will be interesting
to see if the signature of Mr. John Heart, son of David Heart of
Rusland, in the 1638 charter looks similar to that of the St. Andrews
student and grad John Hart.
charter in the Laing papers in which one of the witnesses was Mr. John
Heart, son of David Heart of Rusland. The charter is the one
identified by John B. in the first message in this thread, abstracted
in
http://books.google.com/books?id=cFI-AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA530
.
The University of Edinburgh special collections librarian says that
this 1638 charter in the Laing papers does include what she thinks are
the genuine signatures of the witnesses. I have ordered an image. I
have the signature of minister John Hart from his matriculation at St.
Andrews in 1634 and his graduation in 1637. So, it will be interesting
to see if the signature of Mr. John Heart, son of David Heart of
Rusland, in the 1638 charter looks similar to that of the St. Andrews
student and grad John Hart.
Message has been deleted
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Janet Wolfe
May 24, 2012, 12:30:49 PM5/24/12
to
I have received the image of the signature of the 1638 witness. I see
some similarities as well as some differences in comparing the 1638
witness signature and the two St. Andrews (matriculation and
graduation) signatures.
some similarities as well as some differences in comparing the 1638
witness signature and the two St. Andrews (matriculation and
graduation) signatures.
Message has been deleted
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Steve Riggan
Jun 7, 2012, 5:26:04 PM6/7/12
to Medieval genealogy discussion group
I apologize in advance if this printing comes across badly. I had to cut and paste a lot of information into this message from various sources I had.
I am currently doing research on John Herbert of Prince George Co., VA who died in 1704 and is buried in the Blandford Churchyard near Petersburg, VA. His tombstone there says:
'Here
lyeth Intered the Body of John Herbert, Son of John Herbert Apothecary and
grandson of Richard Herbert Citizen
and Grocer of London who departed this life the 17th day of March 1704 in the 46th year of his age'.
A further note on this tombstone from the Virginia Magazine of History
and Biography Vol XXXII, 1924 Jan1, No.1:
"The arms and crest on the tomb are the same as those borne by Sir Richard
Herbert of Coldbrook, youngest brother of William, 1st Earl of Pembroke. Making
the ordinary allowances for generations, Richard, grandfather of John Herbert
of Virginia, would have been born about 1598.
I also found this note from Randi Herbert Robinson on Genforum who has done extensive Herbert research Some of this information that Dr. Lyon Tyler obtained on the family came from the will of Henry Herbert, a nephew of Richard Herbert of Colebrook. Henry Herbert's will dated 14 March, 1654,
and proved 23 July 1656.
Robinson says, "Dr. Lyon Tyler has cited
the Visitation of London, 1634, which shows that William Herbert of Coldbrook
had issue:
1. William Herbert of Coldbrook, oldest son (father of Henry Herbert, the
testator); 2. Thomas, 3. Matthew of Londondraper 1634, 4, Richard, 5. John, 6.
Cecil, 7. Dorothy, 8. Jane,; 8. Margaret; 10, Katherine, wife of of Henry
Powell. Henry Herbert names his Aunts Margaret Powell, Anne Pownall, and Jane Lewis
and Uncles Matthew and John Herbert. Dr. Tyler makes the very probable conjecture that another Uncle, Richard Herbert, who was living at the
visitation of 1634; but was propably dead in 1651 was the grandfather of John
Herbert of Virginia." My references, Limus Patrum (Clark) and History of Monmouthshire (Brasdney)as well as copies
of the Wakeman (probably all repeating the same uncited source)state that this
Richard, uncle of Henry Herbert, had a son Job and a daughter Phoebe, and
nothing further. Now, it is possibly that the source, were it handwritten,
could have misinterpretted 'Job' for 'John'. Richard was definitly born around
1600; (his oldest brother was 15 at the time of his father's death in 1608)."
I then found that a Richard Herbert of Colebrook/Coldbrook, as quoted in Bradney's History of Monmouthshire Vol I, p. 189, left a will dated 24 Jul 1639 and proved 25 Mar 1640. His residence was Abergavenny (Y Fenni). Evidently, from the Visitation of London, this family also had a residence in London. The information I have also says this Richard Herbert was the son of William Herbert of Colebrook and his wife Catherine/Catrin Morgan of Tredegar. I am interested in finding out if this will is available in some context to find out who his heirs were.
So, in summary, I don't know for sure if we have the same Richard Herbert here who appears on the tombstone of John Herbert of Virginia as his grandfather Richard Herbert, citizen and grocer of London. The coat of arms on John Herbert's tombstone, if authentic to this family, is an important clue to their identity. The difficult part is making the connection between the Virginia family and the Herberts of London and Colebrook.
Does anyone know if "History of Monmouth," the Visitations of London for 1634, are available online or in written form? I am not familiar with records in Britain, so need some guidance here. It looks like most of the references don't carry Richard Herbert's line any further. I'm hoping his will, if available to read in some context, specifies who his children were. The History of Monmouth and Linus Patrum seem to indicate only two children named Job and Phoebe. If these are his only verifiable two, then the Richard Herbert on John Herbert's tombstone is not one and the same with Richard Herbert of Colebrook. If it is, then this lineage traces back into medieval Wales with the progenitors of the Colebrook line and the Earls of Pembroke.
I look forward to any suggestions from the group or someone's existing knowledge of this line.
Steve Riggan
John Higgins
Jun 7, 2012, 8:26:25 PM6/7/12
to
other published visitations. You can find a link to it in this list:
https://sites.google.com/site/cochoit/home/visitations
(look for it under London, for vol. 15 of the Harleian Society series)
The source you refer to as "Linus [or Limus] Patrum" is George T.
Clark, "Limbus Patrum Morganiae et Glamorganiae : being the
genealogies of the older families of the lordships of Morgan and
Glamorgan" (1886), which is NOT available on-line AFAIK. According to
a reprint edition I've seen, it agrees with your account above that
Richard Herbert had a son Job (not John) and a duaghter Phoebe - no
other descendants shown.
Bradney's "History of Monmouthshire" is available on-line via the
Family History Library:
https://familysearch.org/eng/library/fhlcatalog/supermainframeset.asp?display=titledetails&titleno=202113
But the page you're looking for (p. 189) is in vol. 1 part 2, which is
the only segment NOT on-line. I happen to have a copy of that page
(from another library) which is a pedigree of the family of Herbert of
Coldbrook. It agrees with Clark's work above showing Richard Herbert
as having children Job (not John) and Phoebe. And it goes one
generation further showing that Job had a son Thomas who was buried at
Abergavenny 30 Sept 1680 - no other children listed. It also shows
that Richard Herbert, the father of Job, had a will dated 24 July 1639
and proved 25 Mar 1640 as you indicated and is said to be of
Abergavenny, not London.
The pedigree in Bradney, which is pretty detailed, makes no mention of
any member of the family associated with Virgina. It sounds like a
case of "the name's the same".
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Rebecca Haninger
Jul 10, 2022, 7:27:40 PM7/10/22
to
On Wednesday, May 16, 2012 at 5:58:26 PM UTC-4, Jan Wolfe wrote:
> In addition to John B. and me, the Reverend John Heart/Hart has many
> American descendants. John Heart/Hart's daughter Agnes married the
> Reverend Robert Craighead, also a minister from Scotland who served in
> Ireland. He, too, was a graduate of St. Andrews. Robert Craighead's
> daughter Katherine married the Reverend William Homes. Homes was a
> minister on Martha's Vineyard from 1715 until his death in 1746.
> Several of the Homes children married into early Martha's Vineyard
> families, and son Robert Homes married a sister of Benjamin Franklin.
> While William Homes and his family did not settle in the New World
> until after 1700, William had taught on Martha's Vineyard in the late
> 1680s before returning to Scotland to earn his degree in Edinburgh.
> Katherine's brother, Thomas Craighead was also a minister. He arrived
> in Boston in 1714 with the Homes family and settled in Pennsylvania. I
> think that author Jean Craighead George, who died yesterday at age 92,
> is a descendant of Thomas Craighead.
This could be my line as well, as Samuel Dunlap, Jr., of Lancaster County, SC (later of Humphries and Haywood Counties, TN) and his first wife Mary Craighead are candidates for the parents of my documented ancestor Jane (b. c. 1775), the wife of James Cousar (b. 1773).
> In addition to John B. and me, the Reverend John Heart/Hart has many
> American descendants. John Heart/Hart's daughter Agnes married the
> Reverend Robert Craighead, also a minister from Scotland who served in
> Ireland. He, too, was a graduate of St. Andrews. Robert Craighead's
> daughter Katherine married the Reverend William Homes. Homes was a
> minister on Martha's Vineyard from 1715 until his death in 1746.
> Several of the Homes children married into early Martha's Vineyard
> families, and son Robert Homes married a sister of Benjamin Franklin.
> While William Homes and his family did not settle in the New World
> until after 1700, William had taught on Martha's Vineyard in the late
> 1680s before returning to Scotland to earn his degree in Edinburgh.
> Katherine's brother, Thomas Craighead was also a minister. He arrived
> in Boston in 1714 with the Homes family and settled in Pennsylvania. I
> think that author Jean Craighead George, who died yesterday at age 92,
> is a descendant of Thomas Craighead.
This could be my line as well, as Samuel Dunlap, Jr., of Lancaster County, SC (later of Humphries and Haywood Counties, TN) and his first wife Mary Craighead are candidates for the parents of my documented ancestor Jane (b. c. 1775), the wife of James Cousar (b. 1773).
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