Halcro in Orkney
M.Sjostrom
this dilemma, some years ago expressed in this group, over BLANTYRE
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/gen-medieval/2007-02/1170791139
appears to have its explanation that it probably was NOT Blantyre at all, but instead a mix-up in minds of their descendants next century,
a mix-up reminiscing not Blantyre but some other monasterial land.
Blantyre apparently never was held by any of bastards of king James V,
but several of his bastard sons were holding other ecclesiastical great landholdings as commendators or such.
This Mary who is in spot in that dilemma,
was according to Orkney records, 'Marie Stewart', a brother's daughter of Robert, earl of Orkney
- and the said earl Robert had several Stewart brothers (other illegitimate sons of James V) who held various monasterial landholdings.
as far as can be ascertained, the said Marie Stewart, attested niece of earl Robert, herself held a property called Brabster, Brabister
which is in Orkney
M.Sjostrom
Influx of royal blood to Orkney-Shetland in late 1500s
===========================================
There was a distinct development in the latter half of 16th century when the gentry class of Shetland and Orkney received a veritable dose of blood royal - that of Robert the Bruce and in a smaller part, James V.
James V had reigned Scotland just in the first half of the 1500s - leaving several illegitimate sons, whose some granddaughters, and issue in general, was a part of this influx.
James V's illegitimate issue had (via him) Tudor, York, Norwegian-Danish, Gelderland, and Stewart royal and princely blood.
Particularly the royal Tudor blood is not as frequent among royal ancestries. But these had it, because James V's mother had been Margaret of England, Tudor, queen-consort of Scotland.
The other remarkable dose of royal blood was that descending from Matilda of Scotland, a younger daughter of Robert the Bruce - her descendantess had married her kinsman, heir of the illegitimate Bruce branch of Stenhouse, and their descendant was Iain Bruce, the wedded husband of the former royal mistress Eupheme Elphinstone, who had a sortiment of children bearing the surname Bruce.
This influx is explained by Robert Stewart, an illegitimate son of king James V by his onetime mistress Eupheme Elphinstoun, receiving property in Orkney, and a governance position there.
His method was to bring several of his close relatives to Orkney-Shetland, to help him to build local power base and be his auxiliary administrators in this new fiefdom of his.
These relatives in part were of blood of James V, and the other part being of the blood of his mother Eupheme's Bruce husband.
Both bunches had royal blood, although it was basically quite different blood in respective cases, as explained.
An example of the latter bunch (that of Bruce blood) was his half-brother, Laurence Bruce, whom Robert installed as administrator of Shetland. Several children and grandchildren of Laurence Brus married with local gentry.
Examples of the bunch with James V blood included also Robert's niece or nieces, apparently daughter(s) of his illegitimate other brothers.
It looks to me that Robert was in position to have one or several such nieces as his wards, their father(s) having deceased leaving non-adult daughters. For some reason, wardship in some of these cases passed in care of illegitimate half-brother Robert, in Orkney.
And then there were daughters of Robert himself, both his some legitimate daughters and illegitimate daughters.
These young women in Robert's care were seemingly married to leading local gentryfolk of Orkneys and Shetlands.
On one hand, it is obvious that it was Robert's way to 'purchase' support and tie local leaders to his personal family circle. His method resembles a lot the mafia-type building of family circle.
On the other hand, these young gentlemen seem to have not been *richest* in Scotland - apparently, the local upper class of Orkneys and Shetlands were of middle or lower ebbs of gentry. Robert had seemingly a big number of such female relations - and his resources could not have been extensive enough to provide big dowries to such a high number of girls. They landing to marriages with gentlemen who generally held one or a few local manors, but were not immensely rich, was obviously commensurate with Robert's resources to provide dowries.
Some of these girls were Robert's own illegitimates, but seemingly some of them were legitimate of his or his brothers.
For these leading islander families, such matches probably served several desires:
* such made a family tie to the powerful Robert and later his son, the powerful (and despicable) Patrick
* such brought some dowry, even some additional lands within the region where they resided
* such brough royal blood, the children born of such unions would be great-grandchildren (and so) of a late king of the entire Scotland
A crawl over genealogical data about such Orkney gentlemen shows that their families were usually of established gentry in Orkneys or Shetlands - but such was their general moderate nobility that usually, tracing their roots in the 1500s and in the 1400s, appears to lead to several peterings out. The Orkney high class was generally not so well documented that their roots were easily detectable in the 1400s, and wives in the 1500s are sometimes unknown.
This is apparently typical of so-called lower nobility.
This makes to appreciate how much a descent from royalty is phenomenon of one quirk.
Things could have gone much differently: if Robert had not received that property and position precisely in Shetland-Orkney, but somewhere else (or if his sister the queen and nephew the king had not granted him such a position anhywhere), then in high likelihood, Orkneys-Shetlands woould not have received that sort of veritable influx of blood royal.
Or, if Robert's method would have been totally different: if he had not attempted to make family alliances with the leading families of his newly-gotten fiefdom, but instead married his young women to totally other group of young men, for example in circles of the capital, Edinburgh....
However, the region received that influx.
and it's now some four centuries from that.
Several children were born in Orkneys-Shetlands in latest decades of 1500s and early 1600s who had either the Bruce royal blood or the James V royal blood. Many of them remained in their island, and their families continue there.
In four centuries, the blood has highly likely pervaded to almost all levels (and classes) of society in this region. There are bound to be some lineages where some bastards of these royal descendants are within a century or two (say, before the year 1800) in the lower commoner classes, such as servants and agricultural cottagers.
There are bound to be slow, generation-after-generation- social decline in some descendant lineages, something of the sort a great-grandfather having been manor-owner, a younger son of his a farmer, trader or shipper. His some children marrying with local middle class. And so forth.
Naturally, it is almost certain that within a few centuries (say, 1600-1800), practically all the gentry families in orkneys and shetlands would have received a descent from these. It would be inconceivable that in each generation some daughters and sons (and their issue and further progeny) of the families so numerously set up with blood royal by Robert of Orkney, would not have married within their own local social and property class, within these same islands. I gather the number of manor-owning gentry families of these islands at any given time was, at maximum, something like some hundred.
Orkney and Shetland families produced a number of emigrants to various places in colonies (Canada, other N Amer, Oceania...) and other countries (such as scandinavian countries).
All in all, this should be a fertile ground to find royal roots: and to have the relatively rare commodity among royal roots of commoners, a descent from royal Tudors.
----------------------------------
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257247942
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257336700
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257329022
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
Agree that there was an influx of royal blood into the local Orcadian
sqirearchy at least from the late 16th century.Bachelor ministers from
Scotland married into these families and spread the genes ever wider.
Eventually some branches of these families gradually sank into other
sections of the community so that in some islands and Orkney Mainland
parishes there are now quite a few royal descendants.Of course,some
would have emigrated.
Not all Stewarts in Orkney are descended from Earl Robert eg Stewarts
of Burray and not all Halcrows are descended from Barbara Stewart,Adam
Stewart's daughter
Another source of Royal blood was Bishop Graeme(Graham) who was
deceased from Alexander Stewart,son of King James II of Scotland.
King Robert III of Scotland(whoever his father was)is reputed to be
the ancestor of many Scottish families and therefore may have had
descendants who came to Orkney.I am only aware of one.This was Sir
Patrick Bellenden of Stenness,whose mother Agnes Forrester was
descended from him.
M.Sjostrom
John, about the precise evidence:
does the tombstone in St.Magnus cathedral, Kirkwall, have such inscription which clearly say that Barbara Stewart (wife of Halcro) WAS daughter of Adam of Charterhouse ??
or, as opposed, is there simply a tombstone of that Adam, without us knowing who were (or were not) his daughters ???
if that Barbara Stewart (wife of Halcro) was daughter of Adam, is there any testimony who was her mother, and/or any indication whether that Barbara was illegitimate or legitimate?
Adam Stewart, prior of Charterhouse, was in catholic epoch, a celibate monk.
Though, he apparently joined the reformation (probably sometime in 1560s) and then got married.
There's a good possibility that his children (if and when such existed), could have been illegitimate. born in his adult years when he still was Prior and not married.
The (about) 1480 Halcro marriage of that Barbara Stewart leaves chronologically options that she was possibly from Adam's formally-celibate years (and illegitimate, mother possibly unidentified). Or alternatively born of the wedded wife (Ruthven) whenever Adam's that marriage took place.
But, firstly, the tombstones testimony should be received as precise:
namely, I have encountered some mention that there simply exists Adam's tombstone.
Is there Barbara's, too ? and, what are exact mentions in tombstone(s) ?
M.Sjostrom
some Orkney-shetland families and their lineages:
bishop Graham
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00461084&tree=LEO
descended in an illegitimate line from Alexander, Duke of Albany, younger son of king James II
other Stewarts in Orkney:
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00276228&tree=LEO
the father of Barbara Stewart, heiress of Burray, was James Stewart (one of illegitimate offspring from the family of Albany Stewarts) who seems to have acquired Burray in Orkney islands. His wife was from the half-Norse chieftain family of the Hebridean Lewes.
this Barbara's husband, another Stewart, William, seems to come to Orkneys because of his wife's inheritance. He carried the same name - but his root is in the Jedburgh thing, a local steward whose genealogy with mighty Stewarts is obscure, possibly non-existent
so, this Agnes Forrester
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00554530&tree=LEO
would have descended from Robert III.....
how, precisely?
M.Sjostrom
my current hypothesis about the origin of the Sinclair main branch(es) in Sweden is that
William Sinclair, laird of Brabister and Tolhobe, and acquired Seabay (born in est 1580; mentioned in 1615; died after 1651)
was married twice.
That his first marriage (which was going sometime in the first decade on 1600s) with his near kinswoman Barbara Halcro, produced some children, but was invalidated because of consanguinity. Sons of such marriage would be prime candidates for seeking fortune in foreign service, because their rights to patrimonial inheritance were problematic, uncertain,.... And, really, it was from such (= sons of Barbara Halcro) that the Swedish Sinclairs, originally scots mercenaries in Swedish service....
That his second and clearly valid marriage with Janet Gordoun of the Gordouns of Kerstoun (Cairstoun) took place before 1615. Janet was a widow - which is plausible for a man who had also been earlier married, and brings some marital 'baggage'.... Their sons are attested as holders of Grottstetter and Seabay, which at least in part were new acquisitions and not the sinclair patrimony.
And that makes to think: who inherited Tolhobe (Toab) and the Orkney Brabister and Havell and Skaill, after the said william (d aft 1651)
Barbara Halcro from Orkney
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00500379&tree=LEO
Janet Gordoun from Kairstoun, Orkney
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00294393&tree=LEO
----
The Swedish documentation about who were roots of these noblemen in Sweden, documentation which I haven't personally seen,
apparently come from the time when in about 1650s, one or several of them had to file their claims in the Riddarhuset in Stockholm.
That David Sinclair, whose nobility was naturalized, and who apparently was the one or one of those who registered themselves in 1650s in the Riddarhuset,
SHOULD have known correctly his own mother's name. barbara, is what they obviously gave there to documentation.
I am well aware that people may occasionally mistake about grandmothers' maiden names (though, most of us usually recollect even those correctly) and occasionally great-grandparents' identities (although, great-grandparents' names are sometimes remembered correctly), but USUALLY one gets his own parents (at least their first names) correctly, and quite often also grandparents' first names.
David Sinclair and his documentation are more likely to have his mother correctly than incorrectly.
M.Sjostrom
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257616891
It is pretty impossible to have a DNA testing which would show their descent (or lack thereof) from the royal family of Denmark.
Namely, my hypothesis is that this particular family legend may derive its root from Ingeborg Valdemarsdatter,
who was illegitimate DAUGHTER of king Valdemar IV.
Valdemar IV certainly did not convey his Y DNA to any of his daughters - because that's against basic biology.
And those daughters' mitochodrial DNA depends fully on their mothers, they simply cannot have king Valdemar's mt dna.
So, both real dna testing approaches are impossible, already because of the basic setting.
Of course, the family after a century or more, MAY have made an unwarrated claim of descent
- or, what I have observed to been often a case, confused a real cognatic descent into a claim of agnatic descent.
Because, people (who are just human, and have certain tendencies due to that) -and particularly people of military class, like these squires no doubt were- seem to think in a tunnel where a descent is a male-line descent.
IF there was around in 1500s a family tradition that they descend from kings of Denmark,
that could rather (and more plausibly) been a cognatic descent from a bastard daughter of a king of Denmark - who is indicated to have married to that island
rather than a male-line descent from any king of Denmark (seeing particularly that in no time in history, there islands belonged to any king of Denmark before the childless Olav became their ruler in 1380 and was succeeded by his childless cousin Eric in c1388 - there should not be any easy mechanism for a danish royal son to settle to Orkneys.... in any right and plausible time frame)
IF that Ingeborg Valdemarsdatter (whose marriage apparently would have been in around 1370s) had at all progeny to our days,
and as she was married in squirearchy of Orkneys,
then quite a bunch of Orkneys-Shetlands squirearchy in the year 1600 are BOUND to have descended from her.
Two hundred years makes a lot of spread of progeny, and her issue (if it existed) really had not so much likelihood to marry anything else than just (other) squires in Orkneys.
I remind that:
literature tells that a younger brother of Heinrek Sinklar, jarl of Orkney and laird of Rosslin, married the royal bastard Ingeborg, illegitimate daughter of king Valdemar IV of Denmark, the marriage taking place in 1370s-1380s
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00546245&tree=LEO
I am not saying that this likelihood that they descend from said ingeborg, is a genealogically valid proof - as opposed to validity in fields like anthropology....
I am just saying that this COULD been the kernel in that family tradition.
--------
by the way, any Halcro descending from king James V,
obviously descends directly from the Royal Family of Denmark -
because James V's grandmother was Margret of Norway and Denmark, herself daughter of Christiern I, 'hereditary' king of Norway, elected king of Swedes and Goths, and elected king of Danes, Vends etc; by his wife Dorte of Brandenburg, herself dowager queen of Denmark etc;
that Christiern being a lineal descendant of king Eric V of Denmark, of king Haakon V of Norway, of king Magnus III of Sweden, and of king Valdemar I of Sweden, among others.
Because king Christiern I well-documentedly reigned over the kingdom of Denmark as its crowned and anointed king, his daughter's descendants certainly descend from the 'Royal Family of Denmark'
M.Sjostrom
the tomb of Adam Stewart, a brother of Robert, earl of Orkney, was found in the cathedral in Kirkwall, in or near the Stewart aisle.
----
Adam's some chronology:
according to Cowan and Eason, "Medieval Religious Houses",
Adam Stewart, natural son of king James V, was one of the four monks who remained in their monastery of Charterhouse, Perth, in 1567 - when after several vicissitudes that had impact to that institution, some other monks left, bound to continent.
Adam Stewart, illegitimate son of King James V of Scotland, for some time styled himself "Prior", of that benefice.
wherefore I think:
These facts, and the date 1567 if it holds, indicate that until at least that the said Adam would have been catholic, and tied to his celibacy.
In 1569, king James VI granted the buildings and the gardens of the house of Charterhouse in Perth, to ...... (something secular)
------------------------
the book "Kirkwall in the Orkneys", p 226 or so:
...... His storehouse for receipt of rents stood at Tingwall, in the parish of Rendall. A great ]>art of the lands in Orkney and Zetland are held under titles derived from this family. The mansion from which they took their title is in Halcro, in South Ronaldshay."
The only difficulty about " Halcro, Prince of Denmark," is to fit him into a niche in Orcadian history. He does not appear in the Saga, and historians pass him by without recognition. Even " the mansion from which they took their title " was known as ** Holland " till, says a good authority I on such matters, a member of the family changed the name to ^'Halcro," about 1540. As late as the rentals of 1595, Holland is valued, put Halcro is not mentioned.§
Harry Halcro of that ilk married Lady Barbara Stewart, youngest daughter of Robert, Earl of Orkney, and got from the Earl wadset of lands in South Ronaldshay in security of her tocher good, which lands were redeemed by Earl Patrick Stewart in 1598.
" Wydewall, Benorth the Burn, redeemed by my Lord frae Hary Halcro in anno 1598, which was wadset by my umquhill Lord to him for 100 mks. in tocher good with Barbara Stewart, the first year's payment to be of thQ crop 1599." ||
RonaldsvoQ, Akerhouse, and Lyths are also mentioned as having been similarly redeemed ; while, in the same island, Lady Barbara is stated to have " set " Grymness and Gossagair at so much rent '* because the land was dear." The Halcro family succeeded in getting possession of St. Salvator's Stouk lands in Sanday.
This Henry Halcro, in 1580, got Enhallow in a charter from Sir Patrick Ballenden.
--------------
the book "Kirkwall in the Orkneys", p 149 and so:
.....South of the Piper's House was the town residence of the Irvines of Sabay, an offshoot of the Irvines of Drum. As early as 1369, William de Irvine, son of the Laird of Drum, was resident in Kirkwall.
Among the charges in the indictment of Earl Patrick is this :—
** Also, the said Patrick, Erie of Orknay, tressonabillie persuadet, induced, counsallit, and com-mandit William Sinclair of Etha, Henrie Sinclair of Touquhy, Mr Robert Hendersoun, William Irving of Sabav, and many uther gentilmen of the saidis countries of Orknay and Zeitland, to sub-Bcryve and delyver to him ane Imnd, callit band mutus, and thairby obleise thame selffis and thsir ains, that they sould serve and manteine him aganis all and quhatsumeuir persones, without any reservatioun of ws, and that they sould nevir heir nor knaw his hurt or skaith, bot sould reveill it within twentie-foure houres without ony exceptioun of impossibilitie or distance of place, contrarietie of wind, wedder, or vther impediment, vnder the pane of tynsell of lyfe, landis, and guidis ; conteining also this clause, * that gif it hapued that the contravening of this band be ony of the saidis subscryveris sould nocht cum to the Erie's knawledge, quhile efter the committeeis
decease, it sould be liesum to him to try the samyn, efter thair daithe, aganis thair airis, and pwneise thair saidis airis, as he mycht haif done the principall offendour ; and that the said probation of thair contravening of the said band sould be sufficient be tua witnessis,' byndand lykwayis the saidis gentilmen and vthers of the cuntrie
♦ *♦ The St.. Clairs of the Islss," by Ronald St. Clair.
to be judged by the said Erie, and nevir to seik to King, counsell, nor session ; quhilk band the said Erie hes debaited to be lauchfull, and has contest the ressaving and haveing thairof, althocht it be maist vnnaturall, iniust, tyrannical, impossible, and tressonable, bindand men to impossibilities, and inioyneing to them in caice of contra ventionn the paynes of treasone."
This charge was brought against Patrick Stewart in 1610, but poor William Irving did not live to see the end of the trial. His death, in 1614, added a fresh clause to the indictment : — '^Dureing the tyme of the quhilk assault maid to the said castell be the said leutennent, James Richiesone, William Irving, Andro Adameson, and William Robertson, his Maiestei's
faithfull subiectis, war maist tressonabillie slane.*** Irving was buried in the Cathedral, where his tombstone still records the nature of his death : — " Heir lyis Villiam Vrving, Sone to Vmql. Villiam Virving of Sabay, Being Schott out of ye Castel, In His Maiestie's S.V.S."
In 1616, William Irving's widow, Elizabeth Thomson, borrowed from her daughter, Elizabeth, one hundred merks. In 1617, William Irving of Sabay owes his father-in-law, William Sinclair of Tolhop,t 700 merks, and gives Sabay as security. In 1619, disputes, raised by Robert Bannatyne of Groundwater, husband of William Irving's daughter, Barbara, and involving James Stewart of Graemsay, crippled the estate. In 1622, William Irving, now of Sabay, revokes grants made in his minority to Magnus Sinclair and Marjorie Irving, his spouse.
This William (Irvine) died without issue, and Sabay passed to his sister, Marjorie, and her husband, Magnus Sinclair.
The Sinclairs were at that time undoubtedly the most extensive landowners in Orkney outside the pale of earldom and bishopric. They held the greater part of Deerness, much of St. Andrews and of Holm, Orphir from Coubister to Smoogro, Clumlie, and properties in the north and south isles. They mated with the highest in the land. Upon the seventeenth day of May 1580, "compeired personally Magnus Sinclair, in the Close of the Yards, wtin the towne of Barkwall, for observing and fulfilling of ye heids of aneontract of marriage betwixt John Sinclair, eldest son to the said Magnus and Marie Stewart, Brother Dochter to ane nobill and potent Lord Robert Stewart, fewar of Orkney and Zetland " ; and Magnus gave the young couple the lands of Braebuster and Tolhop.
Magnus Sinclair and Marjorie Irving seemed to have preferred Sabay to their town house, which was in a ruinous condition before it came into possession of their heirs.
" Robert and James Sinclairs of Sabay hath ane great ludgeing, sometyme pertaining to the Sinclairs of Sabay (the twa pt. qrof is without roofe, and the rest qrof p'tlie under theack roof and p'tlie under sclaitt roofe), p'ntlie possest by James Linay, cordiner, and uthers."
The Sinclairs disponed the old house to Hutcheon Cromarty and his wife, a daughter of Bessie Irving, younger sister of William, who was "schott," and from them the Sabay mansion passed to their daughter, Margaret Cromarty, and her husband, Walter Fearne, htster.
The term " litster," for dyer, has become obsolete in Orkney, but in the Fair Isle we still have a trace of it ; the pot in which the women mix their pigments for dyeing their home-spun yarn is still called the lit-pot. Robert Monteith of Egilshay, in his " Description of Orkney and Zetland," mentions a lichen which the Shetlanders " scrape off the stone to make the Lit they call the Corker Litt." The litsters of Kirkwall, in the seventeenth century, were a very important class, and many of them acquired wealth.
M.Sjostrom
dates about Adam Stewart
http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/ORKNEY/2008-09/1222253373
"The tombstone of Lord Adam Stewart has the Royal Arms of Scotland and a
Latin inscription which says: 'Here lies Lord Adam Stewart, son of the
most illustrious prince James V King of Scots, who died on the twentieth
day of June in the year of our Lord 1575'"
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
I am sure Barbara was mentioned.I shall post the complete inscription
later in the week.
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
>
Clouston in "Records of the Earldom of Orkney" writes
"Van Bassan,writing in the early part of the seventeenth
century,states that Halcro of that ilk was "lineally descended of a
natural son of King Sverrir of Norway(1174-1202)"Van Bassan's work is
largely fictitious and wholly untrustworthy.It is,however,possible
that such a tradition actually existed at that time,and if so,it is
quite likely to be correct."
I assume that could be YDNA
M.Sjostrom
Okay, so the 'STORY' as compiled (or concocted) by van Bassan, is a male-line descent from king Sverre.
Firstly, all family-legend quality *agnatic* descent claims are usually unwarranted.
There has been and is some vanity and patriarchality in human minds which puts many of them to idealize the patriline, and has lead to silly conconctions particularly about the patriline.
Examples: why on earth did not the Habsburgs happen to concoct any good, illustrious descent of one of their cognatic roots - BUT, they and their hirelings documentedly concocted a silly claim of patrilineal descent from the Merovingians..... and high Romans. This, and a number of other concoction cases, tell that there is some particular thrust to concoct the patriline.
Secondly, king Sverre specifically went to record with statement (in his deathbed) that he had no other (not even illegitimate) sons living than his illegitimate son Haakon Sverrison.
His other (elder) illegitimate son, Sigurd 'lavard' had deceased some year earlier, being also a recognized son. And not living at the time of king Sverre's deathbed.
King Sverre's motive was to make clear who were eligible to succeed him. He had had much experience with a number of 'claimed' illegitimate sons of Norwegian kings appearing out from thin air to make claims to the throne (being one himself :)
His progeny was precarious: only one son left. IF he had had more, he would presumably raised also those.
Both of these recognized sons of Sverre were illegitimate.
Which all makes to presume that Sverre would have mentioned, had he other illegitimate sons, known to him.
Haakon Sverrison succeeded Sverre as king. Despite of being illegitimate. Because he was recognized.
Thirdly, 'Halkro' or something like that, really is not directly any plausible Norse first name.
However, 'Hakon' would be. As would something like 'Haukur'. But these are imo stupid if they try to claim that their forefather in Orkneys would have been Hakon Sverrison, illegitimate son of king Sverre - precisely because that Hakon Sverrison ascended as quite young man the throne of Norway and reigned as king less than two years, then dying. It is presumable that all the time when he was mature enough to breed, he was accounted present in continental Norway. It is very difficult to fit this documented man as one who would have lived in Orkneys-Shetlands and founded a family there.
Fourthly, as I gather it, the actual story which there floated, did not conceive the royal forefather to be 'of Norway' but instead 'of Denmark'. I encounter all the time in the internet and so, indications that the Halcro family story has a king of Denmark and a 'Halcro of Denmark' (as opposed to 'of Norway') as the claimed ancestry. Now, king Sverre certainly was not king of Denmark, and had in HIS epoch nothing 'Denmark' in him. The countries were clearly different and separate in Sverre's time and still almost two centuries after his death. So, any *real* child (or even grandchild or great-grandchild) of Sverre would not be remembered as 'of Denmark'.
Whereas, a concoction made out of a kernel which kernel would be around 1400 (or later), is much easier one which could have Denmark in it. Namely, by 1400, Norway and Denmark were held by the same monarch.
Actually, we have indications that Ingeborg Valdemarsdatter a bastard of Denmark, was married in c1379 to Jon Sinkler IN Tunsberg, Norway (as opposed to someplace IN Denmark; despite of Ingeborg being from Denmark), because Ingeborg's half-sister Margret Valdemarsdatter was at that time Queen of Norway and regent of Denmark. Presumably it was that queen who arranged the marriage for her half-sister - or, granted a lady of some royal blood to a vassal in Orkneys, to tie the said vassal more tightly into loyalty towards the queen and her heirs.
I would dismiss as silly concoction the idea about 'prince Halkro of Norway' or 'prince Halkro of Denmark'
Then, about Y DNA testing: the last living documented male person who was agnatic descendant of king Sverre, was king Haakon V of Norway who deceased in 1320.
Y DNA would thusly be difficult to test. If even Haakon V (grandson of Haakon IV) were in reality Sverre's agnate: there's the point in the lineage where Haakon IV was born to king Haakon Sverrison's concubine - although that filiation is likelier to be correct than incorrect.
I hear that the skeleton of king Haakon V would be in Norway, found some time ago when excavations were made in the castle of Akershus, Oslo. I hear that Y DNA would be difficult, possibly impossible, to extract from that old dead remains.
And, no LIVING person represents documentedly the agnatic line of Sverre.
So, Y DNA test will presumably lack a comparison sample which would represent king Sverre's Y DNA.
But IF that were (extraction from those old bones 700 years dead) still possible....
My prediction is that if a male-line Halcro descendant would be Y-DNA-tested against a sample somehow successfully extracted from skeleton of king Haakon V or from remains of king Sverre or from remains of king Haakon Sverrison, the Y dNA results would be markedly different and show that the Y DNA of the Halcro did not come from king Sverre.
------
Clouston, "Records of the Earldom of Orkney"
"Van Bassan,writing in the early part of the seventeenth century
"Van Bassan's work is largely fictitious and wholly untrustworthy. It is,however,possible that such a tradition actually existed at that time
M.Sjostrom
the persons who gave their roots information to the Swedish Riddarhuset, quite often made mistakes of 'extrapolation backwards' what estates their ancestors held, though the *names* of these ancestors often checked out as correct.
For example, the counts Douglas of Skenninge gave (among other things) one piece of information that their Maitland forefather (the Maitland ancestress who married to the Douglas, was born in mid-1500s, and her father obviously in early 1500s) would have been count of Lauderdale. [names in documents written on basis of what they informed, were: Mettelan, greve till Lauderdihl].
Of course this is an anachronism. The earldom of Lauderdale was created only in the 1600s, in favor to a paternal NEPHEW of that Maitland lady and an agnatic grandson of the grandfather who was the closest direct Maitland forefather of the Douglases too. No DIRECT forefather of Swedish Douglases ever held the earldom of Lauderdale - instead the first holder was a first cousin.
This is just one of those 'patriline fallacies' which happen in minds of human beings. They know of their cousins or second cousins of their own day, and make a false assumption that the fief or holding of such contemporaries came via patriline and existed already generations earlier.
Do not be suprprised that the holding of 'Seabay' in Orkney has met a similar extrapolation.
Instead, take a look at who attestedly were patrilineal forefathers of the first Sinclair who really held Seabay - that would help towards possible correct identifications.
The Sinclair who is well-attested as laird of Seabay (Seba, Saba) in Orkney, was a certain William Sinkler (born est 1580; mentioned in 1615; died after 1651) who is frequently mentioned in all sorts of Orcadian records of his active life (1615...1651).
Incidentally, he was also heir of Brabister in Orkney, since both his father and his mother have been attested with possessions of or in Brabister.
This William (originally 'of Toab') documentedly was since 1620s actually MENTIONED usualmost with that predicate, 'of Seabay'.
He had received that estate from his wife's earlier husband's some kin by some transaction by 1621. And it is certain he held Seabay. For a long time. Leaving it to his (eldest by Gordoun wife) son Robert Sinkler, who is attested with Seabay in about 1660s. "On 16th Match 1621, he produced charter to him made by William Irving of Sava or Saba of the lands of Over and Nether Messagris and the lands of Sava or Saba, with all the houses, buildings, etc. The conveyance of Saba was reproduced 23rd April 1622."
Now, when we look carefully at this William, of Seabay and Toab,
he actually fits to be a certain William Sinkler of Seba ands Brobster whose Sweden-emigrated some sons were born obviously between about 1600 and 1610.
This Sweden-ancestor William was, according to Swedish records, son of Jon Sinkler who held i.a Brabister, and Marie whose father is in swedish sources mentioned as 'lord' of some wealthy monastery estate.
Now, look at this William attested in your sources in Orkney, William Sinclair laird of Toab and acquisitor of Seabay.
His parents were: John Sinclair who held Toab and some lands in Brabister, an attested personage
and his wife (attestedly married in about May 1580)
Marie Stewart, who received something in Brabister, and was attestedly daughter of one of those former monastery priors/abbots, turned commendator lords.
The Seabay thing is not a real problem: the swedish sources had it correctly that the William held it. They erred that already John, william's father, would have held it - but had Brabister correctly to that John.
And, as I argued in this post:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257619747
David sinclair, in Sweden, would presumably known CORRECTLY who was his own mother - when they reported in Sweden that it was Barbara Halcro.
In Orkney, in the Halcro family, there *could* have existed several separate Barbara Halcroes. Even as many as one in each generation since the children of Barbara Stewart (who is obvious as source of that first name for later halcro generations).
a possibility even exists that there was Barbara Halcro (in that hypothesis died in about 1610), first wife of William Sinclair before his Gordoun marriage - whose documentation is scarce possibly due to short lifespan
and that Barbara's brother's daughter Barbara Halcro, unmarried in 1648
who in that scenario would been daughter of Hugh Halcro dc 1645 and paternal aunt of the underage Hugh Halcro fl 1648
Although surviving full sisters usually were not given the same baptismal name, a niece would easily receive the same name as an aunt.
Petter Vennemoe
Earl of Orkney, Lord of Shetland 1533-1593" from 1982 as a daughter of Adam
Stewart of Charterhouse. This is further confirmed by the baptism entry in
the Old Parish Records 18 January 1561 in Perth, of Barbara, daughter of
Adam Stewart.
Barbaras mother, Janet Ruthven died 20 January 1606 according to Edinburgh
Comissary Court records dated 18 March 1606, where she is called "the late
Janet Ruthven, widow of the late Adam Stewart Prior of charterhouse near the
town of Perth".
A sister of Barbara Stewart was Mary Stewart first married (contract 17 May
1580) to John Sinclair of Skail (1580) and Tullope (1593), and later to
David King of Warbister in Hoy (from around 1602). A third sister Lispeth
Stewart is mentioned in her mothers will, but appears to have been unmarried
at this date.
----- Original Message -----
From: <John...@compuserve.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
>>
>>The (about) 1480 Halcro marriage of that Barbara Stewart leaves
>>chronologically options that she was possibly from Adam's
>>formally-celibate years (and illegitimate, mother possibly unidentified).
>>Or alternatively born of the wedded wife (Ruthven) whenever Adam's that
>>marriage took place.
>>
>>But, firstly, the tombstones testimony should be received as precise:
>>namely, I have encountered some mention that there simply exists Adam's
>>tombstone.
>>Is there Barbara's, too ? and, what are exact mentions in tombstone(s) ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> I am sure Barbara was mentioned.I shall post the complete inscription
> later in the week.
>
>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4584 (20091108) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
M.Sjostrom
this is interesting and useful data.
so, Peter is reporting that Adam's those daughters would have been legitimate and born of his (protestant-era) wife, Janet Ruthven.
That Janet Ruthven, I gather, was daughter of this William Ruthven, of Ballindean, meaning this sort of roots:
http://genealogics.org/pedigree.php?personID=I00275760&tree=LEO&paren...
For the sake of having it precise:
is the baptismal record of 1561 (at Perth) positively reporting that Janet Ruthven was the mother ? or, does it only mention the name of the father?
Is the testamentary document of Janet Ruthven mentioning that Marie and/or Barbara were her daughters?
---------------------
it is intriguing to see that Barbara Stewart (and possibly also that Marie Stewart too) would been daughters of Janet Ruthven.
Because, then the Sinclair men in swedish service since 1630s, would have been cousins of the prominently-Sweden-serving general 'Pater Rotwein'.
Namely, the famously alcoholic, Patrick Ruthven, 1st earl of Forth and Brentford,
served Gustav II Adolf in Germanies, was a general or otherwise high officer in command in Swedish troops, and for his alcoholic conduct known as 'Patrik redwine' and the Father of Redwine (rotwein= red wine) rather than a pale 'Ruthven'.
Outline of this Ruthven kinship:
William Ruthven, laird of Ballindean
children included:
1 William Ruthven, laird of Ballindean.
One of sons:
1.2 Patrick Ruthven, general in swedish service, 1st earl of Forth and Brentford
2 Janet Ruthven; married Adam Stewart
daughters:
2.1 Barbara Stewart; married (c1580) H.Halcro, in Orkney
children included:
2.1.1 Barbara Halcro - the first wife of William/Viljalm Sinkler, laird of Brabister and Tolhobe, acquired also Seabay in or bef 1621
sons in SWEDISH service:
2.1.1.1 Jon Sinkler
2.1.1.2 David Sinkler, owner of Finnekumla
2.2 Marie Stewart; married (in about May 1580) Jon Sinkler, laird of Tolhobe and Skaill
children included:
2.2.1 Viljalm/William, mentioned above
2.2.2 James Sinkler, in Rendale in Orkney
2.2.2.1 Jon Sinkler, in Brugh
his son Andrew/Anders also found to Swedish service
M.Sjostrom
"The William Sinclair of Toab who married Patrick Irving's widow, Jean
Gordon by 1615 could not have been married to Barbara Halcrow as she
was alive in 1648."
------
Actually, there are at least two different possibilities that he could have been married twice.
1) that there were two Barbara Halcroes, an aunt and a niece, and that the 1648 gal was the niece, while the aunt (the first wife of the Toab laird) had already deceased before 1615
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257701868
2) that the 1648 Barbara Halcro's marriage with her cousin William Sinkler, laird of Brabister and Toab, was invalidated - presumably due to too close kinship. Which gives the possibility that both spouses (now exes of one another) were living in 1648, but no longer married with one another
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257619747
So, the Swedish Sinclair genealogy is not necessarily wrong.
There is the strong point that David Sinclair in Sweden would surely have known his father and his mother. And that's what got reported from him or his family, to Riddarhuset.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257701868
Since David Sinclair, or his family, reported to Riddarhuset that his father was the 'William Sinclair, lord of Seabay and Brabister', and David and his elder brother John were by necessity born between about 1600 and 1610,
(AND they were in Sweden close kin with men surnamed King who were high officers when these Sinclair guys were young...)
there should be such William Sinclair in Orkneys - David woould not invent their father out of thin air.
So far, this William, of Toab, fits the bill, except that Barbara Halcro - Janet Gordoun marriage problematics.
There will be distinct difficulties in finding any other sinclair from Orkney who could come even close to this William, because of the swedish record from the son David which says he was owner of Seabay.
M.Sjostrom
the fact that in contemporary document, Marie Stewart (who married 1 Jon Sinkler and 2 David King) was called as brother's daughter of earl Robert
indicates that Marie's father were Adam
though, she was not necessarily daughter of Janet Ruthven.
Right?
----
the baptismal entry on 18 January 1561 in Perth, says that Barbara Stewart was daughter of Adam.
so,
Henry Glassford Bell ("Life of Mary queen of Scots")
and
"Kirkwall in the Orkneys"
(both books)
are incorrect when they allege that Barbara Stewart would have been daughter of earl Robert himself
--------------------
that said, it is still possible that it was via Barbara how the portrait of Queen Mary was passed to Barbara's descendants (which is what Glassford Bell reported).
Barbara was anyway niece of the queen, because also Adam was the queen's half-brother.
M.Sjostrom
thank you Petter.
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257712549
I am sure plenty of people appreciate your finds.
I found from pages of Electricscotland:
http://www.electricscotland.com/History/sweden/17-1.htm
"....James King
James King (Sir James King of Birness and Dudwick, later Lord Eythin) was born on Orkney in 1589 [my assessment: obviously not that early, rather he were born in mid-1590s or late-1590s, if not as late as in first years of 1600s], and was the son of David King of Warbester Hoy. He entered Swedish service in 1615, and in 1622 was made a Captain in Ruthven’s regiment. In 1632 he was made Colonel and two years later Major-general. At Wittstock, in 1636, he commanded the left wing, and in the following year he was made Lt.General and Governor of Vlotho on the Weser, where he was defeated by Hatzfeld. He had great difficulty in subordinating himself to General Banér, the Swedish Supreme Commander, and was for this reason in 1639 called to Stockholm, where he was raised to the nobility. He returned the same year to England, where he was well received by Charles I, who used him both to enlist men on the continent and as general. King was thus in command of
the centre at Marston Moor. He was created Lord Eythin in 1642, and in Sweden became lord of Sanshult [Sandshult]. In March 1650 he was to have taken part as Lt.General in Montrose’s expedition, but did not succeed in enlisting any men. He died in 1652 in Stockholm, and was given a state funeral.
HIS JACET NOBILISSIMUS AC GENEROISISSIMUS DOMINUS D.KING LIB. BARO DE EIJTEN IN REGNO SCOTHISA DOMINUS INFONSH HULT ET EQUES AURATUS NEC NON SERENISSIMAE POTENTISSIMAEQUE REGINAE REGNIQUE SVETHIAE QUONDAM GENERALIS SEPULTUS 1652 D. 18 JULII Around the stone, MILITIA EST VTA HOMINIS SUPER TERRAM— VIVIT POST FUNERA VIRTUS
James King seems to have had several relatives in Swedish service. One Thomas King had pay due as an officer in 1595. The General’s eldest brother, John King of Warbester was a Swedish officer and had two sons, both Swedish officers, James, the principal heir of his uncle, and Henry. Another brother, Major David King, distinguished himself at Donauwört in 1632 and fell at Nordlingen in 1634. Members of the main line of the family, King of Barra, also appear in Sweden during the second half of the 17th century. It appears from the General’s will that he had a half brother, William Sinclair of Seaby, whose son, David Sinclair, was a Lt.Colonel in Swedish service."
* invoke the Will of James King:
It appears that Lord Eythin's (=general James King) testament attests that David Sinclair in Sweden was a son of Eythin's half-brother Viljalm Sinkler, onetime owner of Seabay.
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
I was not aware that David Sinclair himself would have given his
family details to the Riddarhuset.
However,I had come to much the same conclusion as your second
possibility.Only I suspect that William and Barbara had never been
married and therefore their children were illegitimate.I suspect that
if Barbara had been married and had the marriage been annulled some
reference would have been made to it in the 1648 document.
I do not know when Patrick Irving died only it must have been before
6/1614 when his father died.William Irving of Sebay,probably Patrick's
son was stated to be now of full age on 26/3/1622 so he was probably
born in 1600 or early 1601.
There is a mention in 1622 of a Robert Sinclair,son of William
Sinclair of Toab.Although he could have been a minor this suggests
that Jean and William were married about 1601
Jean Gordon's children by William Sinclair were at least Robert,eldest
son(1649), major Edward Sinclair.the second son(4/4/1650)
However, against the illegitimacy argument there is the following
record
1631-By James Baikie,merchant,Kirkwall to Harie
Sinclair,oldest lawful son and apparent heir to William
Sinclair of Toab:2d land of Grind,St.Andrews.James had
obtained it from David King of Warbuster,Mary Stewart was
his wife.Refs to Alexander Irvine,baillie and brother
germane to ?decd. William Irvine,sometime of Sebay. John
Flett in Grind.[Comment:Harie after his grandfather???]
In favour of the illegitimacy argument is the following:
1657-Robert Sinclair of Sebay,undoubted heir,at least
apparent in life of John Sinclair of Toab,my guidsir-
action for removal against several Sinclairs from 3d land
of Coubister and 3d land of Smoogro
M.Sjostrom
by the way,
in the genealogies in the past, people made all the time a mix-up with a bride's father and brother.
One of good reasons for those numerous mix-ups is the fact that quite often, a brother (particularly when the father was deceased, but also in cases of father yet surviving) acted as the man who 'gave' the bride to her matrimony.
A reminiscence later seemingly identified the guy in that role, but thought that it was the father.
Those have creeped to a lot of genealogies.
-----
some examples:
there is a tradition that Ingeborg of Sweden, since about 1270s duchess-consort of Lauenburg, woould have been daughter of some king Eric of Sweden.
However, it was not so. The only Eric chronologically even within possibilities, was attestedly childless.
Instead, Ingeborg was given in north Germany to her marriage by one of her brothers, Duke Eric.
and they were children of Birger jarl, regent of Sweden, and his wife, the royal daughter Ingeborg of Sweden.
The bride's brother was king, the bride�'s maternal grandfather had been king; and the bride's father was Regent, with so much power that foreigners thought he was in his time the king.
M.Sjostrom
since Barbara Halcro and Viljalm Sinkler got MORE than one child together, I would rather assess that between them, there was marriage - of some sort (something which was on verge of nullity)
It is still understandable if a noblewoman of pretty same rank would have a fling, and give birth to one child.
But to have several children by the same man, indicates longer-term cohabitation - which would have been possible for a nobleman with a lowly mistress (a servant woman), but not so in the level of another noble.
Simply, the family around them -and the lady herself- would in circumstances and culture of those days demanded that they marry. and, there we are: even if it were something on verge of nullity, still they'd likely to have undergone some formality of matrimony.
All this means that the easiest explanation is that they were intended for one another and they married, but their too-close consanguinity arose as problem and the marriage had to be dissolved.
By the way, now that we have heard that both Barbara Stewart and Marie Stewart (holder of Brabister) were definitely sisters, daughters of Adam,
then the consanguinity is self-evident: Barbara Halcro and Viljalm de Sinkler of Toab were children of two sisters.
I know for a fact that in several protestant countries, first cousins were too close to marry legally. This, for example, was the case in protestant Sweden - centuries after they had gotten rid of roman-catholic consanguinity rules.
------
about chronology: if you take a look at activities of Robert Sinkler, laird of Seabay, you'll observe that he was probably quite young man yet in say 1640.
The mention of him (1622) thusly would likely been at a time when he was a child - a child can well be already a designated heir. Robert obviously was the eldest son of his mother. I would simply make a note that Robert was born before 1622.
Janet Gordoun would not probably have married Sinkler, if he still had been involved in relationship with Barbara Halcro.
Because David Sinkler (the guy in Sweden) probably was not born much before 1610, this actually tightens up Janet Gordoun of Kerstoun's Toab marriage dating: sometime around 1610-1615.
And look how everything fits snugly to that: Janet's first husband the Irvine guy does not need to die many years before 1614, ....
by the way, Barbara Stewart and Marie Stewart, both marrying in 1580, would likely imo be illegitimate daughters of Adam.
Funny how so many illegitimate Stewart girls ended up to earl Robert's supply stock of brides....
-----
The ambiguity possibly visible in their own days about the legitimacy of the children born of Barbara Halcro, is actually a plausible outcome of a marriage being on verge of nullity.
These were on one hand used to medieval usage that popes often allowed the kids to be legitimate,
on the other hand an invalid marriage should make its children illegitimate.
Robert is somewhere explained to been eldest son of Janet's Sinkler marriage.
Therefore Harie /Heinrek/ (and also because of chronology, as Harie was seemingly adult in 1631) must have been born of some earlier MARRIAGE than the marriage with Janet Gordoun of Kairstoun.
a HEIR cannot acceptably been born of total-unmarriage. His position as heir requires that there was at least some sort of marriage between his parents.
And this practically says that Viljalm de Sinkler, laird of Toab, Seabay etc, was married once already before Janet Gordon.
M.Sjostrom
I already marvelled how big was earl Robert's supply stock of royal-blood Stewart brides......
Also another (and BY Robert's Orkney epoch deceased) brother of Robert was this
Iain Stewart, firstly catholic prior and then protestant commendator of Coldingham, as well as sometime owner of Derneley:
http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00006351&tree=LEO
He deceased seemingly in 1563, quite soon after their turn to protestantism and quite soon after his own marriage (with a Hepburn lady of high family).
This gentleman's SON Francis was legitimate, born of the marriage - not much else actually was chronologically possible to come out from that marriage
But, this gentleman also left illegitimate children (presumably born during his earlier, celibate years)
including such Orkney-interest specimen as:
illegitimate daughter, Margret Stewart (d bef 1595; born bef est 1560)
who already in 1570s was in her uncle Robert's bride supply in Orkneys, and was (before 1579) married to a Orcadian-Shetlander nobleman,
Viljalm Olavson de Sinkler, laird of Underhoull (fl 1571; d aft 1580) - one of 'magnates' in Shetland
(after her first husband's death, she married another magnate in Shetland, this time a 'newcomer', Viljalm Bruce, laird of Symbister)
---------------------
the marriage date of that prior of Coldingham is an indication of the likely timeframe when these several illegitimate sons of James V shed their monastic celibacy vows and had joined protestantism, instead starting as secular lords (commendators) of the monastery lands they hitherto held as churchmen.
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
Have very little info on James,John and Andrew Sinclair.
It is interesting that Halcrows of Halcrow were associated with
Rendall and Brugh[presumably the one in Rousay]
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
I see no flaw in your reasoning.However,I suspect that they would not
have been seen to be of noble rank.
Moreover,I would like to have seen some reference to a marriage and
annulment.
For all practical purposes later in the later 17th century the
offspring were regarded as illegitimate
One other thought.William Sinclair may not have been regarded as a
suitable husband.Throughout his career he was involved in legal
proceedings.
I shall dig some more
wjho...@aol.com
As to who this Barbara is exactly, we should remember that in 1648, there were two dead Hugh's not one. Hugh Sr left a will dated 1644, and had a son Hugh Halcro of Akeris who predeceased him, dying in 1637 and himself having a son also Hugh who was his grandfather's heir and a minor in 1648 when this Barbara appears calling herself the sister of the deceased Hugh. But which Hugh? The one who left a will dated 1644? Or the one who died in 1637 his son.
She could be the aunt of the baby Hugh, or the great-aunt. Either is possible.
Will
wjho...@aol.com
I'm not sure we can quite say that.
*That* Adam had a daughter Barbara does not discount the possibility that Robert did as well.
Right?
----
--------------------
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M.Sjostrom
--- On Mon, 11/9/09, wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com> wrote:
> From: wjho...@aol.com <wjho...@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
> To: qs...@yahoo.com, gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Date: Monday, November 9, 2009, 5:20 PM
>
> *That* Adam had a daughter Barbara does not discount the
> possibility that Robert did as well.
>
>
of course, theoretically both could have had a separate daughter Barbara, i.e two women - cousins to one another.
BUT, there appears no contemporary attestation of the existence of the other - it looks like all mentions in those decades involve only the one and same individual.
Only then some centuries-later writers have 'created' a daughter of that name to earl Robert (who obviously had Barbara as his ward), seemingly because of ignorance that Barbara was born as daughter of Adam. Even those writers did not think there at that time was two Barbaras.
This Barbara who was born in 1561 (daughter of Adam), is chronologically suitable to marry in 1580.
Whereas I suspect that earl Robert's any daughter born of his Kennedy wife, would not yet in 1580 been old enough to marry.
And, certainly, the 'youngest' daughter of earl Robert would not be old enough by then.
So, there simply is no life (known in sources) for the earl's *possible* daughter named Barbara, even had she existed.
In genealogy, it mainly concerns which were roots of THIS Barbara whose genealogical 'future' is known: married Halcro and had children - whose identifiable progeny even continues to our days.
M.Sjostrom
since Barbara Halcro and Viljalm Sinkler got more than one child together, I would rather assess that between them, there was marriage - of some sort (something which was on verge of nullity)
It is still understandable if a noblewoman of pretty same rank would have a fling, and give birth to one child.
But to have several children, indicates longer-term cohabitation - which would have been possible for a nobleman with a lowly mistress (a servant woman), but not so in the level of another noble.
Simply, the family around them -and the lady herself- would in circumstances and culture of those days demanded that they marry. and, there we are: even if it were something on verge of nullity, still they'd likely to have undergone some formality of matrimony.
All this means that the easiest explanation is that they were intended for one another and they married, but their too-close consanguinity arose as problem and the marriage had to be dissolved.
By the way, now that we have heard that both Barbara Stewart and Marie Stewart (holder of Brabister) were definitely sisters, daughters of Adam,
then the consanguinity is self-evident: Barbara Halcro and Viljalm de Sinkler of Toab were children of two sisters.
I know for a fact that in several protestant countries, first cousins were too close to marry legally. This, for example, was the case in protestant Sweden - centuries after they had gotten rid of roman-catholic consanguinity rules.
------
about chronology: if you take a look at activities of Robert Sinkler, laird of Seabay, you'll observe that he was probably quite young yet in say 1640.
M.Sjostrom
dear John,
I have been wondering about these guys who were the patriline of the Surteby Sinclairs in Sweden.
A bigger-picture impression about their connections actually makes me estimate they were in Shetland, not in Orkney.
For example, there are some hints that they claim a Bruce ancestress, who were of that family in Muness castle, in Shetland.
And that Anders (Andro, anglicized 'Andrew') de Sinkler would have received his name as commemoration of the kinsman Andrew Bruce, of Muness castle.
------
(2.2.2� James Sinkler, in Rendale in Orkney
2.2.2.1� Jon Sinkler, in Brugh
his son Andrew/Anders also found to Swedish service)
--
Have very little info on James,John and Andrew Sinclair.
It is interesting that Halcrows of Halcrow were associated with
Rendall and Brugh[presumably the one in Rousay]
----------------------------
these places are frustrating, seeing that apparently, there in each case was so-named ones both in Shetland and in Orkney.
I gather there is Rendale in Shetland, and Brugh and Brew in Shetland,
as well as Rendall in Orkney and Brugh in Orkney (Rousay).
The Surteby Sinklars seem to have a claim that their forefather held 'Brock' - and whether that is Brugh in Shetland, Brugh in Orkney, or Brew in Shetland, well....
One thing should be certain: if they were of the patriline of Brew or Brugh Sinklers in Shetland, they possibly then cannot be patrilineal descendants of Marie Stewart (lady of Brabister) BY her that husband Jon de Sinkler.
----
I also have been trying to dig whether these could actually descend from some of the better-known Shetlander Sinklar roots:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GEN-MEDIEVAL/2009-11/1257781098
John...@compuserve.com
Hugh snr died in 1644.He also had a daughter Barbara who had a
marriage contract with Robert Stewart younger of Brough dated 1638.
The 1648 Barbara was almost certainly the great-aunt as aunt Barbara
would have named her husband
wjho...@aol.com
According to your latest however, *both* Barbara's were married by 1648.
So that still doesn't solve the issue.
-----Original Message-----
From: John...@compuserve.com
To: gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 6:27 am
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
Petter Vennemoe
on Earl Robert Stewart states: "On June 20 the strangely shadowed history of
Robert's brother Adam came to an end with his death in Orkney; his daughter,
who had married an Orcadian, Henry Halcro, furnished him with a tombstone
which can still be seen in St Magnus Kirk today." Referance here is given to
"Oppressions, 88-9". (It seems the date stated here does not quite tie in
with the previously mentioned inscription on Adam Stewarts tombstone).
Anderson's "Robert Stewart" is very well researched and referanced, as is
his next book on Earl Robert's son Patrick Stewart "Black Patie" published
1992, both deal extensively with Earl Robert Stewarts legitimate and
illegitimate children, without mentioning an additional Barbara.
Regarding Adam Stewart he is mentioned as "Sir Adam Stewart" as a witness at
Charterhouse 04 July 1556 in NAS item GD112/1/100. He is mentioned again 10
December 1573 as "Pensioner of Chartarhouss" in NAS item GD112/2/230.
----- Original Message -----
From: <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <qs...@yahoo.com>; <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:20 PM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
I'm not sure we can quite say that.
*That* Adam had a daughter Barbara does not discount the possibility that
Robert did as well.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4593 (20091110) __________
Petter Vennemoe
22 October 1666 (Orkney Old Parish Records transcribed by Ken Harisson/ Meg
Greenwood, to be found at Rootsweb), together with her brother Hugh Halcro
(apparently children of Harry Halcro and Jean Halcro of Aikers).
An other Barbara Halcro is mentioned in the Halcro genealogy in
Storer-Clouston's REO as married around 1638 to Robert Stewart "younger of
Brugh", but unfortunately without further referances.
The testament of Hugh Halcro younger dated 21 October 1640 appears to state
that he died "upon the tenth day of Januar in the year of God 1637", with
lawfull bairnes mentioned as Jean, Esther and Sibilla Halcros, his relict as
Margaret Stewart (but no daughter Barbara Halcro).
----- Original Message -----
From: <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <qs...@yahoo.com>; <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
I don't believe that Hugh Sr died *in* 1648. I believe someone has assumed
that, because of this document was Barbara appears that year in some claim.
As to who this Barbara is exactly, we should remember that in 1648, there
were two dead Hugh's not one. Hugh Sr left a will dated 1644, and had a son
Hugh Halcro of Akeris who predeceased him, dying in 1637 and himself having
a son also Hugh who was his grandfather's heir and a minor in 1648 when this
Barbara appears calling herself the sister of the deceased Hugh. But which
Hugh? The one who left a will dated 1644? Or the one who died in 1637 his
son.
She could be the aunt of the baby Hugh, or the great-aunt. Either is
possible.
Will
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4593 (20091110) __________
wjho...@aol.com
Peter would enquote the exact language of those burials in 1666 so we can see exactly what's stated in the original document, and what's an interpretation of a modern author. IF the original document exactly states that this Barbara is Hugh's sister, then I would say she *must* be the same person as the Barbara in 1648 who also states that she is Hugh's sister.
Will
wjho...@aol.com
Are you certain the testament states when he died? That seems a little unusual.
And the death date is prior to the date of the testament. That is a nifty trick.
wjho...@aol.com
Will Johnson
wjho...@aol.com
Also (I missed it the first time), that Hugh jr was yet living Jun 1639, so he did not die in 1637 as my previous source stated.
-----Original Message-----
From: wjho...@aol.com
To: venn...@online.no; qs...@yahoo.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:41 pm
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
Will Johnson
wjho...@aol.com
Of course! (smacks head)
Now that Hugh sr was two wives, this leaves open the door that HE has two daughters named Barbara, one by each wife.
M.Sjostrom
would this, in reality, mean
that the date in 1640 was something like the date of reading the deceased's testament,
and not the date of signing it?
I am a bit surprised that there is no Hugo Halcro (nor even any son) among his mentioned children. If so, then apparently the underage-1648-boy named Hugo Halcro needs to be the heir of lairdship of the Ilk of Halcro in some other way.
This Hugo (d 1637) does not need to have a DAUGHTER named Barbara - in 1648, his daughters would anyway be young, probably still underage, and consequently not yet claiming.
The reconstruction goes that Barbara Halcro was name of this d1637 gentleman's sister (or even two sisters: a full sister and a half-sister), and his aunt.
Obviously, as the royal-blooded Barbara Stewart (she was granddaughter of a reigning king) was the mother of Hugo Halcro 'senior' (dc 1644/1645...), it is even understandable that such a name would have been given to said Hugo 'senior's daughter(s). No doubt Hugo 'senior' wanted to remind that he himself was great-grandson of a king, and first cousin once removed of the then monarch (James VI).
John...@compuserve.com
The Barbara who was married in 1638 was the daughter of Hew,who died
1644 by his second wife,Jean Stewart,daughter of James Stewart of
Graemsay according to the genealogy.
Concur your comments on Peter's book
John...@compuserve.com
Concur that the 1666 deaths were Halcros of Aikers not Halcros of
Halcro.
I have found,admittedly from limited digging in the area,that
Clouston's genealogical tables in REO are accurate.They would have
been subject to local peer review(probably savage)at the time
John...@compuserve.com
Robert Stewart of Brough was named as curator of Hew Halcro of that
ilk on 22/7/1652,9/3/1653 and 18/8/1655.He would have been Hew's
uncle-in-law.
On 1/9/1686 there is a list of Robert's children by his second wife
Agnes Wemyss.A daughter Jean was Barbara Halcro's daughter.
At this time marriage contracts were more likely to have survived
John...@compuserve.com
Clouston in REO states that Hew yr of that ilk dvp 1637
On 9/8/1637 Margaret Stewart was referred to as relict of umquhile
Hew Halcro Younger of that ilk.
By 1639 Hew was dead and his widow Margaret Stewart was married to
Patrick Smyth of braco.
WJho...@aol.com
John...@compuserve.com writes:
> Clouston in REO states that Hew yr of that ilk dvp 1637
> On 9/8/1637 Margaret Stewart was referred to as relict of umquhile
> Hew Halcro Younger of that ilk.
> By 1639 Hew was dead and his widow Margaret Stewart was married to
> Patrick Smyth of braco.>>
Did you read the link I posted? It seems to state that he was yet living in
1639. Can you reconcile these two sources ? They are in conflict.
Will
Petter Vennemoe
I have noted "his sister" as the exact text in the transcription, relative to the Hugh Halcro buried the same date of 22 October 1666.
----- Original Message -----
From: wjho...@aol.com
To: venn...@online.no ; qs...@yahoo.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:31 PM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
Peter would enquote the exact language of those burials in 1666 so we can see exactly what's stated in the original document, and what's an interpretation of a modern author. IF the original document exactly states that this Barbara is Hugh's sister, then I would say she *must* be the same person as the Barbara in 1648 who also states that she is Hugh's sister.
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4597 (20091111) __________
Petter Vennemoe
dated 06 May1645 as "of that Ilk" and a minor. He is again mentioned at the
opening of his testament 11 July 1666 as "brother german" of Jean and
Sibylla Halcro. The "brother german" of Jean and Sibylla Halcro is repeated
in the Retours of services to heirs entry dated 03 October 1670, when Jean
and Sibylla were served as his heirs.
This should perhaps imply that the youngest Hugh Halcro was born some months
after his fathers death.
----- Original Message -----
From: "M.Sjostrom" <qs...@yahoo.com>
To: <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 9:41 AM
Subject: Halcro in Orkney
>
> I am a bit surprised that there is no Hugo Halcro (nor even any son) among
> his mentioned children. If so, then apparently the underage-1648-boy named
> Hugo Halcro needs to be the heir of lairdship of the Ilk of Halcro in some
> other way.
>
> This Hugo (d 1637) does not need to have a DAUGHTER named Barbara - in
> 1648, his daughters would anyway be young, probably still underage, and
> consequently not yet claiming.
>
> The reconstruction goes that Barbara Halcro was name of this d1637
> gentleman's sister (or even two sisters: a full sister and a half-sister),
> and his aunt.
>
>
wjhonson
> The "youngest" Huge Halcro is probably mentioned in NAS Item GD 195/64/1 dated 06 May1645 as "of that Ilk" and a minor. He is again mentioned at the opening of his testament 11 July 1666 as "brother german" of Jean and Sibylla Halcro. The "brother german" of Jean and Sibylla Halcro is repeated in the Retours of services to heirs entry dated 03 October 1670, when Jean and Sibylla were served as his heirs.
>
> This should perhaps imply that the youngest Hugh Halcro was born some months after his fathers death.
>
I don't see why he has to be born after his father's death. He was a
minor in 1645, that just means I believe, that he was under 21. Also
Barbara coming in 1648 to petition against his guardians, should mean
he was yet a minor in 1648 (unless he was non compos mentis).
His father was apparently yet living Jun 1639
http://books.google.com/books?id=qkwAAAAAYAAJ&lpg=PA52&ots=g5sb2SPM20&dq=%22barbara%20halcro%22%201648&pg=PA52#v=onepage&q=&f=false
yet living Jun 1639
Unless we are believing that that document does not refer to this Hugh
the father, or that it does not refer to a living person.
That he was "brother german" to his female Halcro heirs I would say
must mean that they are half-sisters. Right? So his father was
married twice.
Will Johnson
John...@compuserve.com
>Orkney
Could you pse resend the 1639 message
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
>John, about the precise evidence:
>
>
>does the tombstone in St.Magnus cathedral, Kirkwall, have such inscription which clearly say that Barbara Stewart (wife of Halcro) WAS daughter of Adam of Charterhouse ??
>
>or, as opposed, is there simply a tombstone of that Adam, without us knowing who were (or were not) his daughters ???
>
>if that Barbara Stewart (wife of Halcro) was daughter of Adam, is there any testimony who was her mother, and/or any indication whether that Barbara was illegitimate or legitimate?
>
>Adam Stewart, prior of Charterhouse, was in catholic epoch, a celibate monk.
>Though, he apparently joined the reformation (probably sometime in 1560s) and then got married.
>
>There's a good possibility that his children (if and when such existed), could have been illegitimate. born in his adult years when he still was Prior and not married.
>
>The (about) 1480 Halcro marriage of that Barbara Stewart leaves chronologically options that she was possibly from Adam's formally-celibate years (and illegitimate, mother possibly unidentified). Or alternatively born of the wedded wife (Ruthven) whenever Adam's that marriage took place.
>
>But, firstly, the tombstones testimony should be received as precise:
>namely, I have encountered some mention that there simply exists Adam's tombstone.
>Is there Barbara's, too ? and, what are exact mentions in tombstone(s) ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
I did not find the tombstone but the inscription was recorded in
cathedral records
Hic iacet Dominus Adamus Steuardus filius
illustrissimi principis Iacobi quinto scotorum regis qui
obiit vicesimo die iunii anno domini MVLXXV
[on the edge was the following]
Domina de Halcro filia eiusdem fieri[sic.?fleri]
fecit hoc sepulchrum ex sumptibus propriis
M.Sjostrom
the state of evidence feels clear to me.
the Stewart wife of laird of Halcro (= Barbara) must have been daughter of Adam Stewart.
It is unproven who was her mother - it is possible it was not Janet Ruthven.
thusly Barbara apparently was that one who was baptized in 1561 at Perth.
Adam's death date and burial place are attested.
------
It is intriguing that Marie Stewart, wife firstly of Sinclair, laird of Tol-hope and secondly of King, laird of Warbister,
or either of her husbands,
was not providing the tomb 'decoration' for Adam Stewart.
Still, such happened.
For example, one daughter held more 'piety' than the other. Or, was yet alive. Or, wanted more to underline to larger audience that her father was son of a king.
John...@compuserve.com
wrote:
>
>
>some Orkney-shetland families and their lineages:
>
>bishop Graham
>http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00461084&tree=LEO
>descended in an illegitimate line from Alexander, Duke of Albany, younger son of king James II
>
>other Stewarts in Orkney:
>http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00276228&tree=LEO
>the father of Barbara Stewart, heiress of Burray, was James Stewart (one of illegitimate offspring from the family of Albany Stewarts) who seems to have acquired Burray in Orkney islands. His wife was from the half-Norse chieftain family of the Hebridean Lewes.
>this Barbara's husband, another Stewart, William, seems to come to Orkneys because of his wife's inheritance. He carried the same name - but his root is in the Jedburgh thing, a local steward whose genealogy with mighty Stewarts is obscure, possibly non-existent
>
>
>so, this Agnes Forrester
>http://genealogics.org/getperson.php?personID=I00554530&tree=LEO
>would have descended from Robert III.....
>how, precisely?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
William Stewart,Barbara's husband,was the brother of the first Earl of
Galloway
As regards Agnes Forrester I had that from genealogics about 2-3 years
ago
The line(to Robert III) was then given as
King Robert III
Mary Stewart= George Douglas,E of Angus
William Douglas,2nd E of Angus=Margaret Hay
Helen Douglas=William Graham,2nd Lord Graham
Agnes Graham=Sir Walter Forrester of Torwood
Agnes Forrester
I assume that Agnes was found to be the daughter of another Forrester
I shall take out this line from royal descendants
Petter Vennemoe
The following is from Clouston's article "The Origins of the Halcros", regarding the South Ronaldsay properties: "Examining next the property of Halcro in the light of documentary and known township facts, one finds it to be geographically merely an outlying farm in the large town of Holland. In the centre of the town there was actually a "Hall of Holland" included in the 17th century Halcro property, so that Halcro was not the head house of the township. In a list of Halcro tenants in 1717 there are 12 names in Holland, only 1 of them living in Halcro, and in the report of South Ronaldsay in 1627 the specific statement is made "As concerning rowmes, maiynis or great farmis within the yll of South Ronaldsay, their ar non such heir"; so that there was certainly no proper bu at Halcro. Moreover, its position is the very reverse of that of the ancient bu. This was always on the seashore, whereas Halcro was as far inland as you can get in South Ronaldsay. And finally, when Hugh Halcro of Halcro obtained a feu charter of the Bu of Hoy about 1614, he moved over to that island, and the Bu of Hoy became the seat of the family, showing how they took the chance of providing themselves with a mains as soon as they got it."
That Hugh Halcro the older and Jean Stewart were living at Hoy is confirmed by NAS item GD106/163 dated 03 July 1627: "Letter of Tack by Elizabeth Tulloche, relict of Mr And. Dischintoun, sometime minister at Hoye, to the Rt. Hon. Hew Halcro of that ilk and Jean Stewart, his spouse, of said Elizabeth's six penny land north of the burn with her house under reservation of a room therein." From the deed to to this house it is evident that "the Rgt. honorable hew halcro of that ilk and Jean Stewart, his spouse" were living at Hoy.
At this period in time Hugh Halcro older of that Ilk appears to have been a next door neighbour at Hoy to his probable aunt Mary Stewart, married to David King.
08 August 1637 Retours text: "Hugo Halcro,-propinquoir agnatus, id est consaguinens ex parte patris Hugoni Halcro filio legitimo Hugonis Halcro junioris de Eodem". This could possibly make sense if this Hugh was son of Hugh Halcro older and Jean Stewart (i.e. a full brother of Barbara Halcro married to Robert Stewart of Brugh).
22 October 1644 Retours text: "Hugo Halcro de Eodem, hæres Hugonis Halcro de Eodem, avi, in 11 denariatis terraum nuncupatis lie Bow de Hoy;- 3 denariatis terranum de Selwick; -2 denariatis terranum de Gersan; 2 denariatis terranum de uoyis, et 3 denariatis terranum in Rathwick, in parochia de Hoy, "etc. I have problems seeing the logic here, unless this deals with Hugh Halcro older of that Ilk, leaving properties to his grandson Hugh the youngest.
----- Original Message -----
From: wjho...@aol.com
To: venn...@online.no ; qs...@yahoo.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
Are you certain the testament states when he died? That seems a little unusual.
And the death date is prior to the date of the testament. That is a nifty trick.
-----Original Message-----
From: Petter Vennemoe <venn...@online.no>
To: wjho...@aol.com; qs...@yahoo.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:11 pm
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
The testament of Hugh Halcro younger dated 21 October 1640 appears to state that he died "upon the tenth day of Januar in the year of God 1637", with lawfull bairnes mentioned as Jean, Esther and Sibilla Halcros, his relict as Margaret Stewart (but no daughter Barbara Halcro).
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4608 (20091114) __________
John...@compuserve.com
<venn...@online.no> wrote:
>Your comment is obviously relevant, so I have attempted to make some sense out of Hugh Halcro younger, of that Ilk. I can only guess that the testament entry "upon the tenth day of Januar in the year of God 1637" refers to the day the testament was established, and not to Hugh Halcro younger's death date.
>
>The following is from Clouston's article "The Origins of the Halcros", regarding the South Ronaldsay properties: "Examining next the property of Halcro in the light of documentary and known township facts, one finds it to be geographically merely an outlying farm in the large town of Holland. In the centre of the town there was actually a "Hall of Holland" included in the 17th century Halcro property, so that Halcro was not the head house of the township. In a list of Halcro tenants in 1717 there are 12 names in Holland, only 1 of them living in Halcro, and in the report of South Ronaldsay in 1627 the specific statement is made "As concerning rowmes, maiynis or great farmis within the yll of South Ronaldsay, their ar non such heir"; so that there was certainly no proper bu at Halcro. Moreover, its position is the very reverse of that of the ancient bu. This was always on the seashore, whereas Halcro was as far inland as you can get in South Ronaldsay. And finally, when Hugh Halcro
of
>Halcro obtained a feu charter of the Bu of Hoy about 1614, he moved over to that island, and the Bu of Hoy became the seat of the family, showing how they took the chance of providing themselves with a mains as soon as they got it."
>
>That Hugh Halcro the older and Jean Stewart were living at Hoy is confirmed by NAS item GD106/163 dated 03 July 1627: "Letter of Tack by Elizabeth Tulloche, relict of Mr And. Dischintoun, sometime minister at Hoye, to the Rt. Hon. Hew Halcro of that ilk and Jean Stewart, his spouse, of said Elizabeth's six penny land north of the burn with her house under reservation of a room therein." From the deed to to this house it is evident that "the Rgt. honorable hew halcro of that ilk and Jean Stewart, his spouse" were living at Hoy.
>
>At this period in time Hugh Halcro older of that Ilk appears to have been a next door neighbour at Hoy to his probable aunt Mary Stewart, married to David King.
>
>08 August 1637 Retours text: "Hugo Halcro,-propinquoir agnatus, id est consaguinens ex parte patris Hugoni Halcro filio legitimo Hugonis Halcro junioris de Eodem". This could possibly make sense if this Hugh was son of Hugh Halcro older and Jean Stewart (i.e. a full brother of Barbara Halcro married to Robert Stewart of Brugh).
>22 October 1644 Retours text: "Hugo Halcro de Eodem, h�res Hugonis Halcro de Eodem, avi, in 11 denariatis terraum nuncupatis lie Bow de Hoy;- 3 denariatis terranum de Selwick; -2 denariatis terranum de Gersan; 2 denariatis terranum de uoyis, et 3 denariatis terranum in Rathwick, in parochia de Hoy, "etc. I have problems seeing the logic here, unless this deals with Hugh Halcro older of that Ilk, leaving properties to his grandson Hugh the youngest.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: wjho...@aol.com
> To: venn...@online.no ; qs...@yahoo.com ; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 11:28 PM
> Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
>
>
>
> Are you certain the testament states when he died? That seems a little unusual.
> And the death date is prior to the date of the testament. That is a nifty trick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Petter Vennemoe <venn...@online.no>
> To: wjho...@aol.com; qs...@yahoo.com; gen-me...@rootsweb.com
> Sent: Tue, Nov 10, 2009 2:11 pm
> Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
>
>
> The testament of Hugh Halcro younger dated 21 October 1640 appears to state that he died "upon the tenth day of Januar in the year of God 1637", with lawfull bairnes mentioned as Jean, Esther and Sibilla Halcros, his relict as Margaret Stewart (but no daughter Barbara Halcro).
>
>
>
>
>__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4608 (20091114) __________
>
>The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
>http://www.eset.com
With regard to Hew Halcro jnr I agree it should be said he was dead by
1637
By1644 Hew,son of Hew jnr,succeeded his grandfather Hew,son of Henry
and Barbara Stewart
I had not cottoned on to the fact that Hew,son of Henry,had flit to
Hoy.However,they continued to call themselves Halcro of Halcro
suggesting they continued to hold their ancestral land.
wjho...@aol.com
Tell me that Esther Thompson was also a wife of Hugh of Hoy.
=
Petter Vennemoe
appears confirmed by:
-Entry in Register of Great Seal 1611, date "14 Aug. Edinburgum", indicating
marriage before this date.
-Retours of Services of Heirs entry 11 November 1623: "Hugo Halcro h�res
Ester Tomsone spons� Hugonis Halcro de eodem, matris."
-Ditto entry dated 30 September 1629, where Hugh Halcro inherited lands from
Ester Thomsoun, mother: Wesnes, Banks in Sowrick, Ow in Sowrick, Ovirdail in
Sowrick, Browland in Sowrick, Brewdaill, Faraclet, Cloyban and Cloynoma on
island of Rowsay.
I have a death date of 22 April 1613 for Esther Thompson, which probably
needs to be verified.
----- Original Message -----
From: <wjho...@aol.com>
To: <venn...@online.no>; <qs...@yahoo.com>; <gen-me...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 2009 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Halcro in Orkney
=
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4620 (20091118) __________
janet.h...@gmail.com
Janet Hepburn
Nashville, TN
Rebecca Haninger
I have also seen the 1606 testament dative of Jonet Ruthven, relict of Adam Stewart, given up by Elspeth Stewart (no spouse mentioned). It's difficult to read; I can make out that Elspeth was Adam's daughter, but I can't quite make out whether she was Jonet's daughter as well.
Parish records seem to show that Adam had, in addition to the daughters discussed in the thread above, at least three other daughters: Katherine, Dorothea and Jane.
Rebecca Haninger
1. Elizabeth Stewart, born 1562, was the (at the time) illegitimate daughter of both Adam Stewart and Jonet Ruthven who were not yet married at the time of her birth. After the Reformation, her parents married and she was legitimized. It's unclear whether the other daughters born to Adam Stewart were also Jonet Ruthven's.
1. Elizabeth Stewart, born 1562, was one of several illegitimate daughters of Adam Stewart by unknown mistresses. Adam Stewart later married Jonet Ruthven and had a legitimate daughter who was also named Elizabeth. The illegitimate Elizabeth Stewart may or may not have married John Thompson (or someone else), and the legitimate Elizabeth Stewart was apparently unmarried at the time of her mother's death.
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