Herbert FitzHerbert and Herbert FitzHerbert both d ca 1155

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

I posted this on another thread, but it seems to me on reflection that
it deserves its own thread, so here it is again, but slightly altered.

There has always been a lot of confusion about the two Herbert
FitzHerberts, as both seem to have died in the 1150s and so were almost
exact contemporaries. Furthermore William FitzHerbert, Treasurer and
then Archbishop of York, deposed and reinstated, later venerated as a
saint with a splendid tomb in the Minster, although most probably a
scoundrel and certainly dissolute, is almost always attached to the
wrong Herbert FitzHerbert.

Clay's EYC series clearly shows that the brother of William, Archbishop
of York, d 1154, was Herbert FitzHerbert, Chamberlain to the King of
Scots. The reference to Emma, daughter of Count Stephen Henry of Blois
is from a chronicler, name not remembered, who said that she was
William's mother. Their father was Herbert FitzAlberic. Albericus, or
Aubrey, of Tourp was the Chamberlain to Matilda of Scotland, Queen of
King Henry and is known as "of Tourp", because he gave some land in
Tourp, in the Cotentin, to the Monastery of Montebourg.

Herbert FitzHerbert, Chamberlain to the King of Scots was married to
Millisent daughter of Maud and neptis of Osbert the Sheriff of Yorks
and later Lincs. A(nother) chronicler tells us this. He was Lord of
Kinneil and Yester in Scotland and had a number of sons, the elder of
whom was probably Stephen. For full details see EYC, the Archbishop's
Fee and the Treasurer's Fee, also the Res Gesta of King David I of
Scotland, prepared by Professor Barrow. His descendants also retained
the land which they held in Lindsay (Lincs) at Freiston and (probably)
at Rigsby. The tenant of Freiston in (I think) 1266 was Henry le
Chamberlain. My sources are EYC and Keats-Rohan.

Herbert FitzHerbert Chamberlain to King Henry was the son of Herbert of
Winchester, but they were not of the same family. Herbert FitzHerbert
the Chamberlain of King Henry married Sybil Corbet and had issue
another Herbert FitzHerbert who married Lucy of Hereford and had Piers
FitzHerbert.

Albericus
|
Herbert m Emma "of Blois" fil nat
|
Herbert m Millisent, hss of Osbert the Sherriff & William, Archbishop
|
Stephen & William, Robert Treasurer York, Herbert Trsr York, Gilbert(?)

|
Ralph le Chamberlain m Matilda d&h Robert de Caux & Eustace le Chmbrln
|
Ralph le Chamberlain
|
Henry le Chamberlain

This family were possibly a branch of the de Morvilles.
Herbert the Treasurer was possibly the ancestor of the Maxwells.

Compare

Herbert of Winchester
|
Herbert FitzHebert m Sybil Corbet
|
Herbert FitzHerbert m Lucy of Hereford
|
Piers FitzHebert m Alice de Warkworth
|
Reginald FitzPiers
|
John FitzReynold, "Lord FitzReynold"
|
Herbert FitzJohn, "Lord FitzReynold"
|
Matthew FitzHerbert, "Lord FitzReynold" & Sir Reynold FitzHerbert
|
two heiresses, Margaret and Elizabeth

[Alex Maxwell Findlater]

In my earlier posting I said that Herbert the Chamberlain of King David
and King Malcolm of Scots held Kenneil and Yester. That was incorrect,
he did not hold Yester, this was granted to Hugh Gifford by the King,
the confusion arose because Borrowstoun was confirmed to Hugh Gifford
in the same charter and that was the maritagium of Herbert's daughter
who married Hugh Giffard. Borrowstoun was part of the Lordship of
Kinneil.