CP Omission? - Hodleston
Leo van de Pas
In CP I cannot find an entry for him under Hodleston or Hudleston, by which name his descendants are known.
The article in Burke's Landed Gentry skips over generations but as I presume the lineage in general to be correct he is an ancestor of Gateway Ancestors William Bladen and John Yates, as well as of Fletcher Christian and the late Queen Mother.
Should he have an entry in CP? And does anyone know how he is an ancestor of the later Hudlestons?
With many thanks
Leo van de Pas
Canberra, Australia
Tim Powys-Lybbe
> According to Burke's Landed Gentry there was a Sir John de Hodleston
> who was summoned to a council at Newcastle-on-Tyne, and ordered 26
> September 26. Edward I, to attend the Kingh at Carlisle, with horse
> and arms, in the record of which he is styled a Baron.
>
> In CP I cannot find an entry for him under Hodleston or Hudleston, by
> which name his descendants are known.
>
> The article in Burke's Landed Gentry skips over generations but as I
> presume the lineage in general to be correct he is an ancestor of
> Gateway Ancestors William Bladen and John Yates, as well as of
> Fletcher Christian and the late Queen Mother.
>
> Should he have an entry in CP?
Not according to the rules in Sanders in his "English Baronies" where
barons were people who paid scutage and had nothing to do with being
summoned to Parliament.
> And does anyone know how he is an ancestor of the later Hudlestons?
A family of Hudlestons has a pedigree in the 1615 visitation of
Cumberland which starts in the time of Edward I.
This pedigree goes on to 1637 (work that out!), all three pages of it,
and with the usual paucity of dates and references.
--
Tim Powys-Lybbe t...@powys.org
For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org
Chris Phillips
I think from CP's point of view it would depend on the status of the council
to which he was summoned. If it was just a council, the summons wouldn't be
considered to have created a barony (in the legal theory that evolved
centuries later), but if it was a full Parliament, it would.
Chris Phillips
Chris Dickinson
C. Roy Hudleston in 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry' states:
|John de Hudleston (d. c. 1252) .... marr. Joan, dau. and heir of Adam de
Boyvill, qv, and acquired the Lordship of Millom, which passed to their son
Sir John Hudleston (d. before 1306), a noted soldier, who fought against the
Welsh and Scots, and was present at the Battle of Falkirk and at the seige
of Caerlaverock. He was Governor of Galloway and Keeper of Ayr, Wigtown,
Cruggleton and Botel Castels 1297. He sealed the Barons' letter to the Pope
as Lord of Aneys 1301.|
A quick skim of the rest of this entry on the Hudlestons of Millom would
seem to suggest that the lineage from Sir John goes down to two heiresses
who sold the Lordship of Millom to Sir James Lowther in 1774 - however the
line is quite complicated, and without sitting down and drawing a chart, I
wouldn't like to guarantee that they were his descendants.
Chris
Chris Dickinson
>Leo van de Pas wrote:
>>According to Burke's Landed Gentry there was a Sir John de Hodleston who
>>was summoned to a council at Newcastle-on-Tyne, and ordered 26 September
>>26. Edward I, to attend the Kingh at Carlisle, with horse and arms, in the
>>record of which he is styled a Baron.
<snip>
>
>C. Roy Hudleston in 'Cumberland Families and Heraldry' states:
>
>|John de Hudleston (d. c. 1252) .... marr. Joan, dau. and heir of Adam de
>Boyvill, qv, and acquired the Lordship of Millom, which passed to their son
>Sir John Hudleston (d. before 1306), a noted soldier, who fought against
>the Welsh and Scots, and was present at the Battle of Falkirk and at the
>seige of Caerlaverock. He was Governor of Galloway and Keeper of Ayr,
>Wigtown, Cruggleton and Botel Castels 1297. He sealed the Barons' letter to
>the Pope as Lord of Aneys 1301.|
>
>A quick skim of the rest of this entry on the Hudlestons of Millom would
>seem to suggest that the lineage from Sir John goes down to two heiresses
>who sold the Lordship of Millom to Sir James Lowther in 1774 - however the
>line is quite complicated, and without sitting down and drawing a chart, I
>wouldn't like to guarantee that they were his descendants.
I realise belatedly that this may have confused some of you! The Lordship
of Millom refers to the Lordship of the Manor of Millom, a status that gave
no noble entitlement. Sir John's status as Baron would seem here to derive
from 'Aneys'.
see http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/background.htm
I notice that another Cumbrian lord, Thomas de Multon, appears on this list
(my Towerson family claimed in the nineteenth century to have saved his
daughter from being killed by a boar! Ha!)
Chris
Merilyn Pedrick
Dear Chris
I would be most interested to know if you can see a Katherine Huddlestone of
Crackenthorpe, Westmorland, in the early 1400s married to John Machell or
Mauchell. She is my 14th great grandmother.
Merilyn Pedrick
-------Original Message-------
Chris Dickinson
>I would be most interested to know if you can see a Katherine Huddlestone
>of
>Crackenthorpe, Westmorland, in the early 1400s married to John Machell or
>Mauchell. She is my 14th great grandmother.
>Merilyn Pedrick
I can't see anything in this volume. On the whole, women tend not to get
mentioned in this book unless they marry or are a daughter of another entry
in the book!
Also, this work is primarily about Cumberland. There is a sister volume by
R. S. Boumphrey: 'An Armorial for Westmorland and Lonsdale', published in
1975; but I don't have a copy of this. Possibly someone else on the list has
and can do a look-up?
Chris
mj...@btinternet.com
"Leo van de Pas" schrieb:
Dear Leo
Sir John Hudleston was indeed the ancestors of almost all Hudlestons,
including those of Millom, of Lincoln, and of Cambridgeshire. I will
try to post fuller details shortly.
Regards, Michael
mj...@btinternet.com
"Leo van de Pas" wrote:
1b. John Hudleston, living 1251, younger brother of Richard de
Hudleston of Hudleston; died circa 1252 (see Trans. CWAAS NS iii 86-7),
married Joan, daughter and heir of Adam de Boyvill, of Millom. Issue:
2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
younger son of King John). Issue:
3a. Sir Richard de Hudleston, called le Neveu; son and heir; ff 1282;
pardoned for involvement in Gaveston's murder, 1313; Knight of the
Shire for Westmorland, 1328; died 1335 (IPM); married Alice, daughter
of Richard Troughton (Nicholson & Burn). Issue:
4a. Sibyl Hudleston, married 1331 Robert de Clitheroe, died 1343
leaving issue (VCH Lancs vol 6)
4b. Robert Hudleston, son and heir apparent, ff 1325; died without
issue
4c. Sir John Hudleston, younger son and heir, ff 1335-1338; had licence
to crenallate his house, 1335; plaintiff in Plea Roll case, 1336 (see
Furness Abbey Coucher Book); married Maud de Pennington, daughter of
Sir William de Pennington (Nicholson & Burns). Issue:
5a. Alice Hudleston, married 1343 John de Threlkeld, son of Sir John de
Threlkeld (Cumbria RO DLON/L5/1/50/5)
5b. Sir John Hudleston, son and heir; of Millom; "lately dead" in 1398
(see PRO SC8/214/10668-9); married firstly Anne Fenwick; married
secondly Katherine Tempest [said to be of the family of Tempest of
Bowling, Yorkshire, but this is an anachronism]. Issue (by second
marriage):
6a. Sir Richard Hudleston, son and heir; of Millom; a minor in 1398,
but old enough to have participated in a raid against his late father's
Millom estates, then held by his guardian, Robert, 3rd Lord Harrington;
at Agincourt, 1415; ff 24 Henry VI; married the sister of Sir William
Harrington, KG. Issue:
7a. Agnes Hudleston, married William Greene; parents of Thomas Greene
of Gressingham, Lancs (Vis. Herts); ancestors inter alia of the Docwras
of Putteridge, Herts
7b. Anne (illegitimate daughter by Katherine Steele, afterwards wife of
Richard de Charnock), ff 1432-63 (see Cumbria RO DSTAN/1/42-3, 45)
7c. Sir John Hudleston, MP for Cumberland, 7 Edward IV; monument in
Millom Church; died at an advanced age; IPM 1495; married [?Joan].
Issue:
8a. Sir Richard Hudleston, KB, son and heir apparent; died v.p. 1483;
married Margaret Nevill, natural daughter of the Earl of Warwick, died
1499. Issue:
9a. Richard Hudleston, aged 17 in 1495, when he was heir to his
paternal grandfather; died 1503; married Elizabeth Dacre; no issue
9b. Joan Hudleston, coheir to her brother; married Mr Fleming
[allegedly ancestors of HMS Bounty mutineer, Fletcher Christian]
9c. Margaret Hudleston, coheir to her brother; married Lancelot Salkeld
8b. Mary Hudleston, married 1483 John Pennington
8c. Anne Hudleston, married Sir Thomas Curwen, died 1522
8d. Sir John Hudleston; younger son and eventual heir; succeeded to the
Millom estates, which were entailed in tail male; Sheriff of
Cumberland, 1507; Sheriff of Gloucestershire; benefactor of Hailes
Abbey; died 3 Henry VIII; married Joan, daughter and coheir of Sir
Miles Stapleton and widow of Sir Christopher Harcourt, died 1519 (see
North Country Wills, pp 96-97). Issue:
9a. Sir John Hudleston, son and heir; of Southam, Gloucestershire;
married and had numerous issue, including:
10a. Anthony Hudleston, of Millom; ancestor to the later Hudlestons of
Millom
10b. Henry Hudleston
10c. Eleanor Hudleston, married Kinard de la Bere
10d. Richard Hudleston
10e. Anne Hudleston, married Ralph Latus
10f. Bridget Hudleston, married firstly Sir Hugh Ayscough; married
secondly William Pennington
10g. Andrew Hudleston, of Farrington, Lancs; ancestor of the Hudlestons
of Hutton John, Kelston etc
9b. Elizabeth Hudleston, married firstly Mr Leigh of Isel Hall; married
secondly Sir Edward Redman (d 1510)
8e. Sir William Hudleston, ancestor of the Hudlestons of Sawston, Cambs
(see Vis Cambs); married Lady Isabel Nevill, daughter of John, Marquess
of Montagu. Left issue.
8f. Henry Hudleston, died 1489 (see North Country Wills, Surtees Soc.
Pub. 116 pp 60-61)
6b. Sir William Hudleston, of age in 1408; at Agincourt, 1415; issue:
7a. Robert Hudleston, of Rowston, Lincs; ff 1487; a legatee of Robert
Hudleston of Lincoln (see Lincolnshire Pedigrees); married Alice
Savile, daughter of John Savile. Issue:
8a. Godfrey Hudleston, held the manor of Rowston; IPM 1 Elizabeth;
married Elizabeth Beache. Issue:
9a. [Robert/Rowland] Hudleston, of Rowston, Pinchbeck & Dorrington;
purchased the manor of Bower Hall in Digby; buried at Pinchbeck, 31
October 1564; will proved at Lincoln the same day; married Alice Winter
of Swineshead. Issue:
10a. Richard Hudleston of Pinchbeck, aged 18 in 1564; buried at
Pinchbeck, 15 August 1584; married Rachel Fitzwilliams (who had three
subsequent husbands). Issue:
11a. Jane Hudleston, daughter and heir; baptised 1571; buried at
Boston, 22 March 1602/3; married firstly 1585 William Gannocke of
Boston; married secondly Reginald Hall.
10b. Elizabeth Hudleston
10c. Beatrice Hudleston
10d. Emma Hudleston, buried 1585
10e. Joan Hudleston, born and died 1561
10f. John Hudleston, baptised 1561/2
10g. Millicent Hudleston, baptised 1563/4
10h. Jane Hudleston, baptised 1564
3b. Adam de Hudleston, captured at the Battle of Bannockburn, 1322; ff
1325; married Katherine, a widow in 1334 (VCH Lancs vol 6)
2b. Sir Adam de Hudleston, younger son; IPM 1322; married firstly Joan,
secondly Isabel. No issue (see Knights of Edward I).
2c. Sir Richard de Hudleston, younger son; ff 1277-1304; married Joan
(see Knights of Edward I). Issue:
3a. John de Hudleston; probably the ancestor of the Hudlestons of
Whittington, Lancs - see VCH Lancs
These are the family members I have placed, using various sources
(references available), up to the reign of Elizabeth. Considerable
additional material is available to flesh many of these thumb-nail
sketches out, and earlier generations of the family are also known.
MA-R
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< 2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
younger son of King John). Issue: >>
Was this Lawrence FitzRichard de Cornwall the uterine brother of Richard de
Cornwall of Thunnock ?
Thanks
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< 7a. Agnes Hudleston, married William Greene; parents of Thomas Greene
of Gressingham, Lancs (Vis. Herts); ancestors inter alia of the Docwras
of Putteridge, Herts >>
Does someone have the specifics on how these Greenes descend to the Docwras
of Putteridge? Thanks.
Will Johnson
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< 7c. Sir John Hudleston, MP for Cumberland, 7 Edward IV; monument in
Millom Church; died at an advanced age; IPM 1495; married [?Joan].
Issue: >>
That she is Joan Stapleton dau of Katherine de la Pole by Miles Stapleton
is stated in
Living Descendents of Blood Royal, Vol 2, "Volborth", pg 786-789, Count
d'Angerville; World Nobility, London. 1962
Will Johnson
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Coincidentally, I do :)
1. Agnes Hudleston married William Greene (possibly the one of that
name in the Agincourt rolls), and had issue:
2. Thomas Greene, of Gressingham, Lancashire; had issue:
3. Alice Greene, married Richard Docwra; had issue:
4a. Sir Thomas Docwra, Prior of the Knights of St John in England
4b. James Docwra, of Hitchen, Herts, died circa 1497; married Catherine
Haselden; had issue:
5. John Docwra, of Temple Dinsley; died 1531; married Anne St George;
had issue:
6. Thomas Docwra (1519-1602), of Putteridge.
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Actually, I believe that Joan, daughter of Miles Stapleton, married Sir
John Hudleston the younger (d 1512), the son of Sir John Hudleston MP
(d 1495).
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
(My original reply to this appears to have disappeared...)
Lawrence's maternity is unknown, although Annette Hudleston Harwood
alerted me to a contemporary reference which may have a clue: according
to the Cockersands Cartulary, he was called a kinsman by one 'William
de Arundel'.
MA-R
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< 4b. James Docwra, of Hitchen, Herts, died circa 1497; married Catherine
Haselden; had issue:
5. John Docwra, of Temple Dinsley; died 1531; married Anne St George;
had issue: >>
Tudorplace.Ar gives "abt 1446" for the birth of James Docwra of Hitchen's
mother-in-law Elizabeth (Cheney) Hasilden
If that can be trusted then James Docwra of Hitchen was perhaps born in the
period 1440/1480. Do you have anything that can pin his age down better?
Thanks
Will
WJho...@aol.com
mj...@btinternet.com writes:
<< Actually, I believe that Joan, daughter of Miles Stapleton, married Sir
John Hudleston the younger (d 1512), the son of Sir John Hudleston MP
(d 1495). >>
What they give is that the eldes married Joan Stapleton and the younger
married Joan FitzHugh "daughter of Lord FitzHugh"
But they cite no sources. Reviewing the families, I think I agree that it
makes more sense that it was the younger one who married Joan (Stapleton) the
widow. She was m abt 1367 and had at least four children before Sir Christopher
Harcourt died in 1474. To make her the mother of six more children *after*
that is troubling, but not impossible.
I'm going to change my database to reflect how you have it. In most of
the Living Descendents pedigrees they cite line-item sources, but for some
reason not on this one.
Will
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Only that his brother, Sir Thomas Docwra, was active in the Order of St
John before 1494, and possibly as early as 1480. I have the following
tentative dates:
1. Sir Richard Hudleston, born circa 1380
2. Agnes Hudleston, born circa 1400-1410
3. Thomas Greene, born circa 1418-1430
4. Alice Greene, born circa 1440-1450
5. Thomas & James Docwra, born circa 1458-1475
James Docwra's widow, Catherine, remarried Ralph Lane, and was living
in 1531, when she was named in her son's will.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
Lawrence's maternity is unknown, although a clue may be offered in a
contemporary document in which he is called "kinsman" by 'William de
Arundel'; Annette Hudleston Harwood, who provided this reference (as
well as much of the material on which my posted pedigree is based),
cites it as "Records of Kendal, Vol II, p 419", and "Chart[ulary] of
Cockersand (Chetham Soc 973)" [sic].
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
WJho...@aol.com schrieb:
There is much confusion over the names of the various Hudleston wives;
the Visitation pedigrees, for instance, are hopelessly muddled. The
North Country Wills reference that I cite, however, makes it clear that
Joan Stapleton married the younger Sir John Hudleston; this is
confirmed by their arms, which were erected in stone at Hayles Abbey,
and which I saw (and photographed, if anyone is interested) there
earlier this month.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
> 6a. Sir Richard Hudleston, son and heir; of Millom; a minor in 1398,
> but old enough to have participated in a raid against his late father's
> Millom estates, then held by his guardian, Robert, 3rd Lord Harrington;
> at Agincourt, 1415; ff 24 Henry VI; married the sister of Sir William
> Harrington, KG. Issue:
>
> 7a. Agnes Hudleston, married William Greene; parents of Thomas Greene
> of Gressingham, Lancs (Vis. Herts); ancestors inter alia of the Docwras
> of Putteridge, Herts
There is an interesting website
(www.prattens.co.uk/families/parker/trees.txt) which focuses on the
Parker family but contains some information about the Greenes of
Gressingham; apparently the reference for this is the "History of the
Township of Gressingham" by W.H. Chippendale, 1920.
This states that William de Grene ff 1389 of Gressingham married Agnes,
daughter of Sir Richard Hudleston of Whittington (sic). The only Sir
R- H- at this period seems to be Sir Richard of Millom, who has thus
been assigned as Agnes's father; however, there was a contemporary
Richard of Whittington (the two branches of the family having diverged
in the late 13th century) who may well be the R- H- in question -
assuming that the reference to Whittington is correct, and the
knighthood is an error. I shall see what I can find in VCH Lancs Vol
8. If this were the case, the Docwras of Putteridge, descendants of
Agnes and William Grene, would lose their purported descent from King
John (although they have another descent from Henry II).
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
I managed to get hold a copy of VCH Lancs 8 this afternoon at the
Guildhall, and it is clear from that (and other sources) that the
Whittington Hudlestons descend *not* from an earlier generation as is
often stated, but from a younger son of Sir John of Millom and his
wife, Sibyl de Cornwall. Accordingly, the apparent Plantagenet descent
is preserved. Much of the website's Greene stemma is accurate (but I
haven't been able to confirm it all, and one or two items are
demonstrably wrong).
Agnes Greene's probable father was Richard Hudleston of Whittington,
who died in 1415 - this is a much better chronological fit than Sir
Richard Hudleston of Millom (ff 1445). I will post more details
shortly, and also try to get hold of Chippendale's Histories of
Whittington and Gressingham. I don't believe a proper study of the
Whittington Hudlestons has yet been presented.
MA-R
mj...@btinternet.com
mj...@btinternet.com schrieb:
> "Leo van de Pas" wrote:
> > According to Burke's Landed Gentry there was a Sir John de Hodleston who was summoned to a council at Newcastle-on-Tyne, and ordered 26 September 26. Edward I, to attend the King at Carlisle (snip). Does anyone know how he is an ancestor of the later Hudlestons?
>
>
> 1b. John Hudleston, living 1251, younger brother of Richard de
> Hudleston of Hudleston; died circa 1252 (see Trans. CWAAS NS iii 86-7),
> married Joan, daughter and heir of Adam de Boyvill, of Millom. Issue:
>
> 2a. Sir John de Hudleston, son and heir; ff 1292-1311; summoned as a
> baron, 1297; served in the Scottish campaigns of Edward I (see Knights
> of Edward I); married Sibyl, daughter of Sir Lawrence FitzRichard de
> Cornwall (illegitimate son of Richard, Earl of Cornwall, himself
> younger son of King John). Issue:
Actually, Sir John de Hudleston appears to have died in 1305 or 1306;
according to VCH Lancs 8, he presented to Whittington in 1305, and his
widow Sibyl claimed dower in 1306.