Melissenoi, was: Byzantine succession
Igor Sklar
news:567d38e8.03021...@posting.google.com...
> Well, the Gabrades seem to be pretty good example of
> a Byzantine family continuously recorded for about a millenium. Are
> there any other examples? What about Melissino?
> Thanks, Suzanne
Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
state. I also recall Gregorios Melissenos who was a patriarch during
the last days of Constantinople.
IIRC the Balkanese Melissinoi claimed descent from the marriage (1067)
of Nikephoros Melissenos and Eudokia Komnene (sister of Alexios I). Is
there any record of this family in the century after the fall of
Constantinople?
Regards, Igor
George Tsambourakis
Marriages with Hadjery, Rallis, Calvocoressi and Rodokanakis families
(1600 - 1900)
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> wrote in message
news:5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
George Tsambourakis
--
Dr. George Tsambourakis
343 Major's Line Road
Tooborac, Victoria 3522, Australia
eac...@ozemail.com.au
"George Tsambourakis" <eac...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:isMca.7$mv6...@nnrp1.ozemail.com.au...
Pierre Aronax
"Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
> Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
> the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
> state.
Which Melissènos was a great aristocrat in the Empire of Trebizond?
> I also recall Gregorios Melissenos who was a patriarch during
> the last days of Constantinople.
It was Grègorios III Mammas who was patriarch at the time of the fall of
Constantinople: he was not a Melissènos. See V. Laurent, "Le vrai surnom du
patriarche de Constantinople Grégoire III", in Revue des Etudes byzantines,
14, 1956.
The Melissènoi are attested in the 15th century, but were not particularly
important at that time. A great part of the glory attributed to this family
is legendary and was invented in the Modern time by the forger Makarios
Melissènos, Metropolit of Monemvassia.
>
> IIRC the Balkanese Melissinoi claimed descent from the marriage (1067)
> of Nikephoros Melissenos and Eudokia Komnene (sister of Alexios I).
Possible, but not proven at all: the connection between Nikèphoros
Melissènos and the Melissènoi of the 15th century is impossible to trace.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
> "Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
> > the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
> > state.
>
> Which Melissènos was a great aristocrat in the Empire of Trebizond?
I looked through an index to 'The History of Byzantine Empire' by
Fiodor Uspenskij (have no better source at hand), and found this
passage: 'Manuel of Trapezunt directly administered only towns and his
personal estates. Other parts of his shallow country were ruled by
almost independant archons like native Kabasites or immigrant
Melissenoi.'
> > I also recall Gregorios Melissenos who was a patriarch during
> > the last days of Constantinople.
>
> It was Grègorios III Mammas who was patriarch at the time of the fall of
> Constantinople: he was not a Melissènos. See V. Laurent, "Le vrai surnom du
> patriarche de Constantinople Grégoire III", in Revue des Etudes byzantines,
> 14, 1956.
>
> The Melissènoi are attested in the 15th century, but were not particularly
> important at that time. A great part of the glory attributed to this family
> is legendary and was invented in the Modern time by the forger Makarios
> Melissènos, Metropolit of Monemvassia.
When did he live? The Melissinoi appear on Russian service in the 18th
century. Ivan Ivanovich Melissimo (1718-23.03.1795) was a curator of
the Moscow university. He married Pss Praskovia Vladimirovna
Dolgorukova. His brother Petr (1724-26.12.1797), a
general-of-artillery, had the son Andrey (1761-1813). Andrey Petrovich
(a general-major) was killed at the Battle of Dresden. He married Pss
Roxana Mikhailkovna Cantacouzene. Though they served and married well,
the Melissimos never claimed a princely title (unlike Kantakouzenoi,
for example).
Pierre Aronax
"Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
5534a4c5.03031...@posting.google.com...
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3e73a387$0$29170$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > "Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > 5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
> > > the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
> > > state.
> >
> > Which Melissènos was a great aristocrat in the Empire of Trebizond?
>
> I looked through an index to 'The History of Byzantine Empire' by
> Fiodor Uspenskij (have no better source at hand), and found this
> passage: 'Manuel of Trapezunt directly administered only towns and his
> personal estates. Other parts of his shallow country were ruled by
> almost independant archons like native Kabasites or immigrant
> Melissenoi.'
Is there any source given for this information?
> > > I also recall Gregorios Melissenos who was a patriarch during
> > > the last days of Constantinople.
> >
> > It was Grègorios III Mammas who was patriarch at the time of the fall of
> > Constantinople: he was not a Melissènos. See V. Laurent, "Le vrai surnom
du
> > patriarche de Constantinople Grégoire III", in Revue des Etudes
byzantines,
> > 14, 1956.
> >
> > The Melissènoi are attested in the 15th century, but were not
particularly
> > important at that time. A great part of the glory attributed to this
family
> > is legendary and was invented in the Modern time by the forger Makarios
> > Melissènos, Metropolit of Monemvassia.
>
> When did he live?
End of the 16th century I think: I must check.
> The Melissinoi appear on Russian service in the 18th
> century. Ivan Ivanovich Melissimo (1718-23.03.1795) was a curator of
> the Moscow university. He married Pss Praskovia Vladimirovna
> Dolgorukova. His brother Petr (1724-26.12.1797), a
> general-of-artillery, had the son Andrey (1761-1813). Andrey Petrovich
> (a general-major) was killed at the Battle of Dresden. He married Pss
> Roxana Mikhailkovna Cantacouzene. Though they served and married well,
> the Melissimos never claimed a princely title (unlike Kantakouzenoi,
> for example).
Melissènoi are also attested serving the king of Spain in the 17th century I
think, and this Melissènoi also took part in the mythification of their
family history.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
> "Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> 5534a4c5.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<3e73a387$0$29170$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > > "Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > > 5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > > Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
> > > > the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
> > > > state.
> > >
> >
> > I looked through an index to 'The History of Byzantine Empire' by
> > Fiodor Uspenskij (have no better source at hand), and found this
> > passage: 'Manuel of Trapezunt directly administered only towns and his
> > personal estates. Other parts of his shallow country were ruled by
> > almost independant archons like native Kabasites or immigrant
> > Melissenoi.'
>
> Is there any source given for this information?
No. Uspenskij died leaving the last chapter of his monumental work
unfinished. It was completed and edited by his friend Panchenko.
That's why sources for this chapter are not listed.
Editors say that Uspenskij wrote much about the Trapezunt Empire, and
he was the first to study churches of Trapezunt (as well as to
discover the Bulgarian capital Pliska).
All best wishes, Andrey
Captain Nemo
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e73a387$0$29170$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > "Igor Sklar" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > 5a635d65.03031...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Reading a book about the Grand Komnenoi of Trebizond, I noticed that
> > > the Melissinoi were perhaps the greatest aristocratic family of this
> > > state.
> >
>
> I looked through an index to 'The History of Byzantine Empire' by
> Fiodor Uspenskij (have no better source at hand), and found this
> passage: 'Manuel of Trapezunt directly administered only towns and his
> personal estates. Other parts of his shallow country were ruled by
> almost independant archons like native Kabasites or immigrant
> Melissenoi.'
Actually the family stemmed from Thessaly. I've got two quotes from
the first pages of "The Epiros State in the XIII century", a classical
article published by F.I. Uspensky and A.A. Vasiliev back in 1915:
'The Life of St. Job records that Michael I Angelos was sometime after
1201 a ruler of Morea. His wife was one of Melissenoi, the wealthiest
landowners of Northern Greece. She was also a relative of
Sennakerimos, governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis (i.e. all of Epirus).'
'Michael supported his distant relative Konstantinos Melissenos, who
owned extensive lands near the Makrinitissa Monastery, Thessaly. He
married Konstantinos to his daughter and granted him the title of
despotes. Makrinitissa documents also record that the bride was
presented by her aunt, the countess of Cephallenia, with the Monastery
of St. Illarion.'
regards
George Tsambourakis
Crete to peloponnese, to Ionian Islands and Thessalia. Trebizont is not
mentioned.
To my surprise, the first known Melissinos was Michael Melissinos, a general
born about 725. His father was "Archontas" in Konstantinoupolis named
Manuel.
In 766 he was the "Administrator" "tou Thematos ton Anatalikon".
He was a great supporter on the new changes in Konstantinoupolis etc,
Another Melissinos (I did not know) was Theodoros who was Army Officer and
then he become a cleric towards the turn of the 9th century.
The 1st of April 815, he was chosen as Patriarch died 821)
Another Melissinos, first name not mentioned, was a General, defender of
Amorio during the years Theophilus was king. In 833, he was taken prisoner
by the Arabs, was tortured and died together with another 41 leading
Byzantine prisoners.
His death is honoured by the Christian (Orthodox ) Church the 6 of March,
Others mentioned,
Nikiforos (Philosopher and Cleric) born in Naples in 1577 and died in
Crotone in Italy 16??.
Petro probably started the Melissinos family in Zante born 1716 died 17??.
He and his brother Ioannis were active (army officers) in Russia and were
both recognised for their services (Russian Turkish wars) 1770-1774 and
1778 - 1790.
I welcome any additional information
Pierre Aronax
"Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
Steel no trace of any Melissenoi in Trebizond nevertheless...
And I don't see how Michačl Angčlos of Epiros, who himself never assumed the
title of despot, can have granted it to a son-in-law. So all this is rather
suspect. Is there any real source beyond this? What is the date of this
"Life of St Job"?
Pierre
Captain Nemo
> "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > the first pages of "The Epiros State in the XIII century", a classical
> > article published by F.I. Uspensky and A.A. Vasiliev back in 1915:
> >
> > 'The Life of St. Job records that Michael I Angelos was sometime after
> > 1201 a ruler of Morea. His wife was one of Melissenoi, the wealthiest
> > landowners of Northern Greece. She was also a relative of
> > Sennakerimos, governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis (i.e. all of Epirus).'
> >
> > 'Michael supported his distant relative Konstantinos Melissenos, who
> > owned extensive lands near the Makrinitissa Monastery, Thessaly. He
> > married Konstantinos to his daughter and granted him the title of
> > despotes. Makrinitissa documents also record that the bride was
> > presented by her aunt, the countess of Cephallenia, with the Monastery
> > of St. Illarion.'
>
> title of despot, can have granted it to a son-in-law.
By these words you reveal a profound ignorance on the subject without
even understanding it yourself. Of course Michael could not assume the
title of despot, because he was completely independant ruler, while
the title 'despot' implied his vassalage to some Emperor. His position
was unique because he had no desire to call himself 'despotes' or any
other title below 'basileos', but had no means to acquire the imperial
title he craved for so much (unlike his brother Theodoros, for
example).
As for imperial ambitions of Michael, it's quite clear he had a
recapture of Constaninople on his mind, and regarded his activity in
Epirus as only a preparation for this feat. He did not personally meet
with Emperor Henri during the summit of 1210, because he demanded this
meeting to happen on equal footing. If he did not wish to be regarded
as a vassal of Emperor but his equal, what is so strange he granted
titles like 'despot' to his relatives?
> So all this is rather
> suspect. Is there any real source beyond this? What is the date of this
> "Life of St Job"?
You ask too many questions without ever answering any. But this time
I'll ask you some questions myself:
1. Where have you seen a genealogical account of the Angeloi which
does not mention Melissenoi marriages or even doubts their reality? I
think you are the first to do so.
2. Have you ever seen treaties of Epiros' rulers with Venetians? If
you had, you'd certainly remember that rights of the Melissenoi were
specifically guaranteed here. I also advise you to get acquainted with
a charter given by Michael to merchants of Ragusa ca 1205. A silver
seal on it will perhaps help you to get a clearer idea of Michael's
title.
To sum it up, your partiality and stubborness lead you to denying even
well-known and obvious facts. We've already exposed some menial
reasons for your personal hatred of Rus' princes. Perhaps now it's
time to find out what lies behind your partiality concerning noble
Greek families like Melissenoi and Kantakuzenoi.
regards
Vadim Verenich
travers l' histoire d' Orient";Sottotit,Rome, 1992? Is it an accurate
source?
B.M. Kamp
The last one I received was no 372. I did receive large numbers of
SPAM messages.What is wrong?
Bert M. Kamp
Pierre Aronax
"Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3e81ee0a$0$5027$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > >
> > > Actually the family stemmed from Thessaly. I've got two quotes from
> > > the first pages of "The Epiros State in the XIII century", a classical
> > > article published by F.I. Uspensky and A.A. Vasiliev back in 1915:
> > >
> > > 'The Life of St. Job records that Michael I Angelos was sometime after
> > > 1201 a ruler of Morea. His wife was one of Melissenoi, the wealthiest
> > > landowners of Northern Greece. She was also a relative of
> > > Sennakerimos, governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis (i.e. all of Epirus).'
> > >
> > > 'Michael supported his distant relative Konstantinos Melissenos, who
> > > owned extensive lands near the Makrinitissa Monastery, Thessaly. He
> > > married Konstantinos to his daughter and granted him the title of
> > > despotes. Makrinitissa documents also record that the bride was
> > > presented by her aunt, the countess of Cephallenia, with the Monastery
> > > of St. Illarion.'
Here the first sentence of my answer has curiously disappeared, without
mention that it was snipped. I wrote:
> Steel no trace of any Melissenoi in Trebizond nevertheless...
I hope that what was the original question of the thread will not again
vanished under a flow of rather vaguely related opinions and
side-commentaries.
> > And I don't see how Michačl Angčlos of Epiros, who himself never assumed
the
> > title of despot, can have granted it to a son-in-law.
>
> By these words you reveal a profound ignorance on the subject without
> even understanding it yourself. Of course Michael could not assume the
> title of despot, because he was completely independant ruler, while
> the title 'despot' implied his vassalage to some Emperor. His position
> was unique because he had no desire to call himself 'despotes' or any
> other title below 'basileos',
Typo for "basileus" of course.
> but had no means to acquire the imperial
> title he craved for so much (unlike his brother Theodoros, for
> example).
It is probably vain to point that nobody said the contrary. The question was
not why Michačl I [Angčlos] Komnčnis Doukas of Epiros did not assume the
title of despot, the question was: how can he have conferred the title of
despot to somebody else without bearing himself a title above or at least
this title itself? His brother Theodôros only gave this title when he had
become emperor in 1224.
But, since the question popped up, I think that the idea that Michačl
"craved" for the title of basileus is rather a reinterpretation based on
later sources and on what was later the carrier of his brother and success
or Theodôros. Anyway, that is not the question here: the fact that Michačl
"craved" to be emperor, even if true, woul not be enough by itself to prove
that he usurped imperial prerogatives to the point to create despots.
> As for imperial ambitions of Michael, it's quite clear he had a
> recapture of Constaninople on his mind, and regarded his activity in
> Epirus as only a preparation for this feat.
No source given for this "quite clear" ambition of Michačl. But anyway, as I
said before, even if it was true, how would that be a proof that he created
despots? He would have been the first if not the only non-basileus to do so.
> He did not personally meet
> with Emperor Henri during the summit of 1210,
In Summer 1209 actually.
> because he demanded this
> meeting to happen on equal footing.
A source for this affirmation? Of course, Michačl recognized the
sovereignity of Henri and promised his daughter to Henri's brother with a
third of his possession:
> If he did not wish to be regarded
> as a vassal of Emperor but his equal, what is so strange he granted
> titles like 'despot' to his relatives?
For what is of the supposed refusal of Michael to become the vassal of an
other sovereign, it is enough to recall that he did allegiance to the doge
of Venice in 1210, recognizing to hold his possession from the doge as a
fief.
> > So all this is rather
> > suspect. Is there any real source beyond this? What is the date of this
> > "Life of St Job"?
>
> You ask too many questions without ever answering any.
That is to the one who makes assertions to present evidences, not to the one
who makes objections to this dubious assertions.
> But this time
> I'll ask you some questions myself:
I suspect the real purpose of this questions to be in fact to obtain some
bibliographical informations more fresh than a 1915 article.
> 1. Where have you seen a genealogical account of the Angeloi which
> does not mention Melissenoi marriages or even doubts their reality? I
> think you are the first to do so.
For what is of the wife of Michačl I, I don't say that she was not a
Melissčnč (nor say that she was), only that this doesn't prove that the
Melissčnoi were great landowners in Epiros. For what is of the alleged
marriage of a daughter of Michačl I with a Melissenos, no I am not. Neither
L. Stiernon in his article on "Les origines du Despotat d'Epire" (Revue des
Etudes byzantines, 1959), neither D. M. Nicol in his second volume on the
Despotate of Epirus (not to be confused with the first one, which was a
disgrace), neither R.-J. Loenertz, "Aux origines du despotat d'Epire"
(Byzantion, 43, 1973) make mention of a marriage of a Kônstantinos
Melissenos with a daughter of Michačl I (that is the only marriage I discuss
here, with the fact that this pseudo-Kônstantinos Melissenos would have
received the title of despot from his supposed father-in-law).
> 2. Have you ever seen treaties of Epiros' rulers with Venetians? If
> you had, you'd certainly remember that rights of the Melissenoi were
> specifically guaranteed here.
I have, without paying attention to that particular mention of the
Melissenoi. I will check this point as soon as possible. But I can already
say (from the abovesaid article of L. Stiernon) that Michačl didn't take any
title in that treaties.
> I also advise you to get acquainted with
> a charter given by Michael to merchants of Ragusa ca 1205.
> A silver
> seal on it will perhaps help you to get a clearer idea of Michael's
> title.
I am not aware of a preserved original charter from Michačl I to the Ragusan
of ca 1205. For what I know from Stiernon (art. cit. above), and from B.
Krekic, "Dubrovnik (Raguse) et le Levant au Moyen Âge", Paris-The Hague,
1961, p. 167-168, the acts of Michael I for the Ragusans are all lost and
known only through confirmations of his son Michačl II. Michačl I's brother,
the despot Manučl Doukas delivered in March 1234 a prostagma to the
Ragusans: no mention of any act of Michačl in it. In 1237, Michačl II, son
of Michačl I, produced an horismos in favour of the Ragusans, sealed with a
lead seal, which alludes to a sigillion of his father. In June 1251, he
granted them a prostagma which mentions an argyrobull (an act with a silver
seal) of his late father. Of course, the seal attached to this lost act of
Michačl I is itself lost, but the act of Michačl II which quotes it also
describes this seal: the legend given for it is simply "Michačl Komnčnos o
Doukas". No title.
Seals of Michačl I no more attached to a document are also preserved
separately. In none of those mentioned by Stiernon does Michačl I use any
title. In one he is said "Michačl Doukas, flourishing scion of the
sebastokrator". This is the only "title" that he ever took: son of his
father, a "title" which he also used sometimes in his acts, for example in
the act of 1210 by which he recognized to be the vassal of the doge (he is
also called "dux" [= duke] in Latin documents, but it is a misunderstanding
of his surname, Doukas... and even if he had been duke as a Byzantine
official before 1204).
Strange for somebody to, according to Captain Sklar's interpretation,
considered to be above the despots, an emperor without the title, to glorify
himself in his acts simply to be the son of a sebastokrator, a dignity under
the despotat.
Anyway, it would be very interesting if Captain Sklar gives us some peculiar
information about this preserved act of ca. 1205 (but Michačl probably
didn't arrive in Arta before 1206) for the Ragusans, with his silver seal
still hanging to it, bearing his mysterious titles.
>
> To sum it up, your partiality and stubborness lead you to denying even
> well-known and obvious facts. We've already exposed some menial
> reasons for your personal hatred of Rus' princes. Perhaps now it's
> time to find out what lies behind your partiality concerning noble
> Greek families like Melissenoi and Kantakuzenoi.
Everybody reading my posts knows that I have the same "partiality" against
all genealogical myths presented with a total naivety and without any
reference to the actual sources. I have already have the occasion to
exercise my "partiality" on French medieval genealogy, since French are
certainly an other of all this poor nations against whom I have a "personal
hatred".
We have learned a lot of things in this thread.
1) We have learned that the Melissenoi were one of the prominent families of
the Empire of Trebizond. Sources given: none.
2) We have learned that the Melissenoi were also "the wealthiest landowners
of Northerne Greece", and that the wife of Michačl I was a relative of
"Sennakerimos", governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis. Alleged source: "The Life
of St. Job".
3) We have learned that Michačl I's daughter married a Kônstantinos
Melissčnos, owning goods in Thessalia, and that this Melissčnos received
from his father-in-law the title of despot. Alleged source: not clear. I
don't know (but would be curious to know) how other readers on the group
have interpreted this, but for me it was clear that, the two quotations
coming successively, they were a woll, and that the source was in both
occurrences the mysterious "Life of St. Job".
I really didn't see what could be this "Life of St. Job" until I realised
that the Life of Saint Theodôra, the wife of despot Michačl II and so the
daughter-in-law of Michačl I, has been written by a monk Job. Considering
how Igor Sklar generally quotes his references, it is difficult to say if he
has read more quickly than he thinks and is responsible himself of this
mix-up, or if the confusion his already in the article (unknown to me) which
he uses as his only source, qualifying it of "classical", which, for an
article of 1915 on a subject seriously revised during the last century, is
an elegant way to say "totally outdated".
The Life of Saint Theodôra is indeed the only source which gives the wife of
Michačl I as a Melissčnč. For the reign of Michačl I, it is not a
contemporary source, but a rather late one, of which the reliability has
been hardly discussed. I will not go into that, limiting myself to quote
exactly what says this source (I follow the French translation given by
Loenertz, but I have checked the important points in the Greek text
published by Migne, Patrologia Graeca, tome 127, col. 904). The source says
that Michačl was appointed as a governor in the Peloponnes by his relative
the emperor Alexios III (1195-1203), who appointed at the same time
Senachereim as governor in Etolia and in the area of Nikopolis. Michačl and
Senachereim had married two first cousins, from the family of the
Melissenoi. After the fall of Constantinople to the Latins [1204] and the
usurpation of Michačl [VIII] Palaiologos [in 1258!], the area fall into
confusion and Senachereim called Michačl to help him. Senachereim was
murdered, but Michačl arrived, punished the murderers and married
Senachereim's widow. He succeeded him in the government of the area. He
receives investiture of the country from Alexios III, redeemed from Genoese
corsairs. His wife gave him four sons, Michačl Doukas, Theodôros, Manoučl
and Kônstantinos.
As everybody can say, this source did not say that Michael I was a "ruler"
in Peloponnes "after 1201", but only that he was governor in that region for
the emperor Alexios III (and this is probably an invention since Michačl was
exiled during a great part of his reign). The text didn't say that his wife
was a relative of Senachereim, neither that she was from the family of "the
wealthiest landowners of Northern Greece", but only that the wives of the
two men were relatives. When Michačl married is second wife (which according
to this unclear source was the cousin of his previous wife: what happen to
her?), she acquired authority in the area not because she possessed land or
influence in this region, but because she was Senachereim's widow. Nothing
is said of a political implantation of the Melissenoi in the neighbourhood.
As everybody can also see, this source is rather suspect on this facts: not
to speak of the chronological confusion (Michačl Palaiologos' usurpation
dated contemporaneously with the fall of Constantinople to the Latins!
absurd from an historical point of view, but significant from a political
point of view in the context of the end of the 13th century) genealogical
data are clearly biased: this hypothetical Michačl is the father of four
sons who can only be Michačl [I], Théodôros, future emperor of Thessalonica,
and their brothers Manoučl and Kônstantinos. He makes also of this Michačl
the father of despot Michačl II, husband of Saint Theodôra, so clearly there
is an undue generation inserted into this genealogy.
I let to everyone to decide if he considers nevertheless than the source is
reliable for what is of the identity of Michačl I's wife as a Melissčnč
(read the article of Loenertz if you want a detailed balanced opinion on its
value): at least that is not what I would call a "well-known and obvious
fact" (to speak like Captain Sklar).
What is clear at least is that this source, dubious as it is, does NOT say
that the Melissenoi were landowners in the North of Greece, or more
precisely in Epirus, or more generally anywhere else. It does not speak of
that. Neither does it speaks of Konstantinos Melissenos, this " distant
relative" of Michačl I, who supposedly received from him the hand of his
daughter and "the title of despotes". This time, I suspect that the error
comes rather from the nonchalant way with which Captain Sklar read the
article he uses rather than from the article itself. But, since it is again
a "well-known and obvious fact", probably we can find the source of this
information without his help.
In fact, a document exists which contains more or less the information
resumed in the second quotation of Mr Sklar: it is published in F. Miklosich
and J. Müller, Acta et diplomata Graeca Medii Aevi, I, p. 345-349. They are
only three problems: it was written when Michačl was already dead since a
good time, Kônstantinos is not a Melissenos, and he is no more a despot:
1) the act was written under Michačl II.
2) Kônstantinos is a Maliasčnos, and not a Melissenos.
3) Here a quotation of the text where the word "despot" appears: "kur
Kônstantinos o Maliasčnos, gambros ôn epi autadelphč protč kyra Maria
Komnčnč tč Aggelinč tou despotou ekeinou Komnčnou kurou Michačl tou
Douka...". As anybody reading a little of Greek can see, the only Despot
here his Michačl himself, and not his brother-in-law.
So, sorry, but no Melissenos created despot, and in fact no Melissenos at
all as son-in-law of Michačl I. Again a "well-known and obvious fact" which
vanished.
Just by curiosity, I would like to know if somebody read this. If all this
is only for the benefit of the education of Captain Sklar, I think it
useless: I don't see the profit to discuss Byzantine genealogy with him.
Pierre
Captain Nemo
> "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:<3e81ee0a$0$5027$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > > "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > > ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > > >
I'm really glad to see that you spent some time in a library to get it
all clear. Education is always good.
> Here the first sentence of my answer has curiously disappeared, without
> mention that it was snipped.
When I snip some part of your message, that's usually because I want
to spare this newsgroup from demonstrating your ignorance, which has
been done here too often before.
> I wrote:
> > Steel no trace of any Melissenoi in Trebizond nevertheless...
The book I was reading is Narrative of the Embassy of Ruy Gonzalez de
Clavijo to the Court of Tamerlane, at Samarkand, 1403-6. It was none
other than you who mentioned that book in one of recent threads. I
found it in my dusty (yes, a little bit old, I admit, because it was
collected several generations ago) library, and was pleased to see
that it's the best (i.e., the most trustworthy) source on early
15th-century Trapezunt. I learned here that city and castle Inei
(Ineos in Greek?) belonged at that time (1404) to a tributary of
Tamerlane called Melissenos from Greece, and that Greeks and Turks
lived in that city. That's pages 113-114 of my Russian edition of
1898. Translator Sreznevski notes that it was the same castle that was
burnt down by Valeran de Wavrin in 1457. The city is called Onyo in
account of his nephew, Jehan de Wavrin.
Another poster quoted the passage of Uspensky, and it confirmed my
idea that Clavijo wasn't the only source who mentioned Melissenoi of
Trapezunt. But you know better, as usual. Vasiliev and Uspensky had no
other business than to falsify evidence proving antiquity of the
Melissenoi family (which was extinct in Russia by that time).
> I hope that what was the original question of the thread will not again
> vanished under a flow of rather vaguely related opinions and
> side-commentaries...
...as usual, coming from you.
<snip>
I will not discuss here your side-commentaries about the summit of
1209, ambitions of Michael, and his relations with Venice. I just
repeat here my words that you are either ignorant about the political
situation of 13th-century Epiros or seriously misunderstand political
tactics of the time. If you really want it, I'll come back to it
later.
<a lengthy discussion of titles, seals, etc. snipped>
> 2) We have learned that the Melissenoi were also "the wealthiest landowners
> of Northerne Greece", and that the wife of Michačl I was a relative of
> "Sennakerimos", governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis. Alleged source: "The Life
> of St. Job".
>
> 3) We have learned that Michačl I's daughter married a Kônstantinos
> Melissčnos, owning goods in Thessalia, and that this Melissčnos received
> from his father-in-law the title of despot. Alleged source: not clear. I
> don't know (but would be curious to know) how other readers on the group
> have interpreted this, but for me it was clear that, the two quotations
> coming successively, they were a woll, and that the source was in both
> occurrences the mysterious "Life of St. Job".
I clearly indicated that the source for both statements is archive of
the Makrinitissa Monastery, Thessaly. I suspect Makrinitissa is not
the only source of agricultural and other acts for this period in
Thessaly.
I do not think that despot's title of Konstantinos Melissenos is of
particular importance in the history of this family. It was quite
famous without it. Would you also deny that Nikephoros Melissenos was
proclaimed basileus in Asia (1081), but after coronation of his
brother-in-law used the title of caesar?
I do not mention here speculative alliances like the marriage of
Konstantinos V (+775) and Eudokia Melissene. Unlike Toumanoff, who
managed to marry some of the Megaloi Komnenoi to members of Murusi and
Ypsilanti families.
> 3) Here a quotation of the text where the word "despot" appears: "kur
> Kônstantinos o Maliasčnos, gambros ôn epi autadelphč protč kyra Maria
> Komnčnč tč Aggelinč tou despotou ekeinou Komnčnou kurou Michačl tou
> Douka...". As anybody reading a little of Greek can see, the only Despot
> here his Michačl himself, and not his brother-in-law.
Who is Maliasčnos? I never heard about such a family. Who is Aggelinč?
Considering influence of Melissenoi in Epiros, I assume that it is a
typo (or a mistake of copyist, if the document is a copy). Not
Maliasenos but Melissenos.
Regards
P.S. Professor, return to the "Nautilus"! We miss you here.
Pierre Aronax
> "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<3e88c002$0$1638$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>...
> > "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de news:
> > ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > > "Pierre Aronax" <pierre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:<3e81ee0a$0$5027$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>...
> > > > "Captain Nemo" <skla...@yandex.ru> a écrit dans le message de
news:
> > > > ef481026.03032...@posting.google.com...
> > > > >
>
> I'm really glad to see that you spent some time in a library to get it
> all clear. Education is always good.
>
> > Here the first sentence of my answer has curiously disappeared, without
> > mention that it was snipped.
>
> When I snip some part of your message, that's usually because I want
> to spare this newsgroup from demonstrating your ignorance, which has
> been done here too often before.
No coment...
> > I wrote:
> > > Steel no trace of any Melissenoi in Trebizond nevertheless...
>
> The book I was reading is Narrative of the Embassy of Ruy Gonzalez de
> Clavijo to the Court of Tamerlane, at Samarkand, 1403-6. It was none
> other than you who mentioned that book in one of recent threads. I
> found it in my dusty (yes, a little bit old, I admit, because it was
> collected several generations ago) library, and was pleased to see
> that it's the best (i.e., the most trustworthy) source on early
> 15th-century Trapezunt. I learned here that city and castle Inei
> (Ineos in Greek?) belonged at that time (1404) to a tributary of
> Tamerlane called Melissenos from Greece, and that Greeks and Turks
> lived in that city. That's pages 113-114 of my Russian edition of
> 1898. Translator Sreznevski notes that it was the same castle that was
> burnt down by Valeran de Wavrin in 1457. The city is called Onyo in
> account of his nephew, Jehan de Wavrin.
If it was the case, it would be anyway the only mention of the Melissenoi in
Trebizond: it would still be rather extraordinary that "the greatest
aristocratic family of this state", as said Captain Sklar, would not be
mentioned by the principal historian of the Empire of Trebizond, namely
Panaretos.
But it is always better to go back to text. What says Clavijo in fact?
(that's now readable in the text on line by the way :
http://cervantesvirtual.com/servlet/SirveObras/23438396499171163309680/p0000
001.htm)
"...y otro día lunes a hora de medio día fueron en un puerto de un castillo
que ha nombre Hinio, y tomaron allí puerto, porque hablan el viento
contrario, y junto con el puerto en unas peñas altas estaba la villa, y era
bien pequeña y poblada de Griegos, y en una cabeza de sierra muy alta que
cerca de la villa estaba había un castillo muy alto que era de la villa, en
que decían, que vivían hasta trescientos Turcos: el cual castillo y villa es
de un Señor Griego que ha nombre Melaseno, el cual hacía tributo al
Tamurbec..."
I have not identified Hinio, but nowhere says Clavijo that this town is part
of the Empire of Trebizond: he still stops in three ports under Turkish rule
on his sea journey before arriving to the first port under the authority of
the emperor of Trebizond.
Anyway, the lord of this town is called by Clavijo "Melaseno" and not
"Melissenos". Of course, since the text is not written in Greek, it is
difficult to say exactly which surname is transliterated here. I don't think
we are necessarily limiter to the families active in the empire of Trebizond
,since this town doesn't seem to have been a dependancy of this state, but a
Melesianos is attested for example as a landowner in Trebizond in 1432. So,
I suspect this Greek lord to be rather a Melesianos than a Melissenos,
since, for what I know, this last surname is not attested in that State.
So, sorry to repeat myself but:
Steel no trace of any Melissenos in Trebizond...
> Another poster quoted the passage of Uspensky, and it confirmed my
> idea that Clavijo wasn't the only source who mentioned Melissenoi of
> Trapezunt. But you know better, as usual.
And Clavijo also it seems.
> Vasiliev and Uspensky had no
> other business than to falsify evidence proving antiquity of the
> Melissenoi family (which was extinct in Russia by that time).
>
> > I hope that what was the original question of the thread will not again
> > vanished under a flow of rather vaguely related opinions and
> > side-commentaries...
>
> ...as usual, coming from you.
>
> <snip>
>
> I will not discuss here your side-commentaries about the summit of
> 1209, ambitions of Michael, and his relations with Venice. I just
> repeat here my words that you are either ignorant about the political
> situation of 13th-century Epiros or seriously misunderstand political
> tactics of the time. If you really want it, I'll come back to it
> later.
I think everybody has now understand what was the opinion of Captain Sklar
about this question. Unfortunetly, facts are against him. Even if it was
true, I reapet that it would not be a proof that he created despots (which I
don't believe). Without wanting to read any lengthy declarations about what
were the political ambitions of Michaèl I, I would be very happy to know
nevertheless what is the source for the specific affirmation that he
"demanded this meeting [with emperor Henry] to happen on equal footing".
> <a lengthy discussion of titles, seals, etc. snipped>
Between the snipped things:
- My remark about the fact that Michaèl I, who supposedly refused to become
the vassal of an
other sovereign, did allegiance to the doge of Venice in 1210.
- The fact that the only source which says that Michaèl's wives were both
from the Melissenos family is not a "Life of St Job", but the Life of St
Theodôra by the monk Job.
- The fact that this source is not particularly accurate (to be polite!)
with genealogy and chronology, is so of debatable reliability, and anyway
did not say that the Melissenos family possessed lands in that area, so that
we still don't know what is exactly the source which permits to say as an
evidence that the Melissenoi, already "the greatest aristocratic family" of
Trebizond, were also "the wealthiest landowners of Northerne Greece".
- The fact that "a silver seal" joinded to "a charter given by Michaèl to
merchants of Ragusa ca 1205" was supposed to help me "to get a clearer idea
of Michael's title" when 1) no original diplom of Michaèl for Ragusa are
known to the bibliography to which such a seal can be attached. 2) In the
text of his lost diploms for Ragusa when it can be known from the
confirmations of his son and in the other documents of Michaèl which are
known, he never takes any title except precisely "son of the sebastokrator",
which is rather extraordinary for someone who is supposed to have been above
the despots, an emperor without the title. 3) The same can be said of his
preserved seals. So, I am still interested by this preserved original act
for the Ragusans, with his silver seal still hanging to it, bearing his
mysterious titles. Probably, when he wrote "a silver seal on it will perhaps
help you to get a clearer idea of Michael's title", Captain Sklar had a
precise idea in mind about this title.
> > 2) We have learned that the Melissenoi were also "the wealthiest
landowners
> > of Northerne Greece", and that the wife of Michaèl I was a relative of
> > "Sennakerimos", governor of Aetolia and Nikopolis. Alleged source: "The
Life
> > of St. Job".
> >
> > 3) We have learned that Michaèl I's daughter married a Kônstantinos
> > Melissènos, owning goods in Thessalia, and that this Melissènos received
> > from his father-in-law the title of despot. Alleged source: not clear. I
> > don't know (but would be curious to know) how other readers on the group
> > have interpreted this, but for me it was clear that, the two quotations
> > coming successively, they were a woll, and that the source was in both
> > occurrences the mysterious "Life of St. Job".
>
> I clearly indicated that the source for both statements is archive of
> the Makrinitissa Monastery, Thessaly.
Both statements? Did that means the Melissènè wife of Michaèl I and his
alleged Melissenos son-in-law? But the first statement doesn't come from a
document of archive, it comes from an hagiographical source.
> I suspect Makrinitissa is not
> the only source of agricultural and other acts for this period in
> Thessaly.
>
> I do not think that despot's title of Konstantinos Melissenos is of
> particular importance in the history of this family.
I don't know if it is important to the history of a Byzantine family to have
received the more prestigious civil dignity after that of emperor, but the
fact is that we were said in a previous message that it was the case, and
that a Kônstantinos Melissenos received this title from is father-in-law
Michaèl I. It was one of this "well-known and obvious facts" which can
surprise only those with "a profound ignorance" about the subject, so it
must be of some historical importance. But it seems now that this fact is no
more so sure, and so probably it becomes less important. Besides, the name
of this man was Kônstantinos Maliasènos and not Melissenos. His family is
well known, they were all constantly called Maliasènoi. What would be the
reason to change this name for another?
> It was quite
> famous without it.
This Kônstantinos Melissenos was so famous that he never existed:
Kônstantinos Maliasenos did.
> Would you also deny that Nikephoros Melissenos was
> proclaimed basileus in Asia (1081), but after coronation of his
> brother-in-law used the title of caesar?
I don't see why I would deny that, neither do I see the relation between
this fact and the alleged position of the Melissenoi in Epirus and at
Trebizond one or two centuries later. (Of course, he didn't use the title of
kaisar simply from his own volition, he received it from Alexios I with the
government of Thessalonica).
> I do not mention here speculative alliances like the marriage of
> Konstantinos V (+775) and Eudokia Melissene. Unlike Toumanoff, who
> managed to marry some of the Megaloi Komnenoi to members of Murusi and
> Ypsilanti families.
And so what?
> > 3) Here a quotation of the text where the word "despot" appears: "kur
> > Kônstantinos o Maliasènos, gambros ôn epi autadelphè protè kyra Maria
> > Komnènè tè Aggelinè tou despotou ekeinou Komnènou kurou Michaèl tou
> > Douka...". As anybody reading a little of Greek can see, the only Despot
> > here his Michaèl himself, and not his brother-in-law.
>
> Who is Maliasènos? I never heard about such a family.
The family who possessed the Makrinitissa were the Maliasènoi, not the
Melissenoi: they are never called otherwise.
> Who is Aggelinè?
Well, it is said in the text: "Sir Kônstantinos Maliasènos, brother-in-law,
by his first sister Lady Maria Komènè Angelina, of the said despot Sir
Michaèl Doukas Komènos...". It means that Kônstantinos Maliasènos is married
with the older sister of Michaèl II Doukas Komènos [Angèlos], despot.
> Considering influence of Melissenoi in Epiros,
But we still don't know what is the source for that affirmation.
> I assume that it is a
> typo (or a mistake of copyist, if the document is a copy). Not
> Maliasenos but Melissenos.
In that case, it is a rather extraordinary epidemic of typos since all
sources (documents and inscriptions) which mention this family commit
exactly the same mistake: all call the members of this family "Maliasènos",
not one calls them "Melissenos". Considering that fact, we still need a
rather serious argument to make them Melissenoi rather than Maliasenoi.
Pierre
Andrey Frizyuk
It wasn't that hard to find the article in question. Here's what it
*actually* says.
1. The Life of Saint Theodora is called 'zhitie Iova', i.e. Job's
life. That's what Captain Sklar couldn't understand. If he had read
several pages forth, he would have seen explanation that a monk Job
wrote the life of despot's wife.
An interesting phrase follows: "We wouldn't enter into analysis of
this information [i.e., that Michael married a Melissene] here, it's
enough to say that Michael certainly had some connections in these
regions through his father, who had been governor there."
2. "Michael tried to counterbalance the growing power of Venetians by
corroborrating privileges of their rivals, citizens of merchant
Raguza. He granted them a charter with a silver seal of despot, which
said..." What is 'a silver seal of despot'? Is it possible that silver
seals were used only by despots?
3. The title of Michael is discussed in detail, numerous inscriptions
and letters are analysed, some part of them first published by
Vasiliev's teacher Vasilievsky and Uspenskij himself (e.g.,
correspondence of metropolitan Ioannes of Naupaktos). The conclusion
is that Michael I used no specific title, and that others did not even
know how to address him.
4. The summit of 1209: "Monarchs did arrive, but there was no personal
meeting between them. They couldn't agree on forms of etiquette and
had to talk through ambassadors. Michael wouldn't and couldn't
acknowledge the political system of Latin Romania, he couldn't meet
with Henri as vassal with sovereign, whilst Emperor of Romania
couldn't accept any other form of meeting, asking Michael to swore
allegiance ['lennaya prizyaga', words pronounced by vassal when he
recieves his demesne from a king]. Instead of this Michael suggested
marrying his daughter to emperor's brother Eustach, and couldn't help
politely indicating that he is the only one of Greeks who has any real
power and can be a useful friend to emperor both on land and on sea.
Politic interests triumphed over feudal conceptions, and Henri
complied with this form of friendship between independant states."
5. The relative of Michael created despot by him is called
'Konstantinos Malliasennos (Melissenos?)'. IMHO the Makrinitissa
documents mentioning this event could be falsified by later
generations of Maliasenoi (or Melissenoi?) family.
Hoping this helps a bit, Andrey
Andrey Frizyuk
> news:567d38e8.03021...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Well, the Gabrades seem to be pretty good example of
> > a Byzantine family continuously recorded for about a millenium. Are
> > there any other examples? What about Melissino?
>
> > Thanks, Suzanne
Actually the Melissenoi were discussed in this newsgroup before. See:
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3AF5C880.3158243A%40club-internet.fr
It is mentioned here that Michael I had 6 sons. Had they any
posterity? I've seen a reference to the book: Rangabe E.R. Livre d'or
de la noblesse phanariote en Grece, en Romanie, en Russie et en
Turquie, 2e edition (Athens, 1904). Was its author an alleged
descendant of Michael I? Anybody knows?
Pierre Aronax
"Andrey Frizyuk" <fri...@yahoo.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
5534a4c5.03040...@posting.google.com...
> > "Suzanne" <ghirl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:567d38e8.03021...@posting.google.com...
> >
> > > Well, the Gabrades seem to be pretty good example of
> > > a Byzantine family continuously recorded for about a millenium. Are
> > > there any other examples? What about Melissino?
> >
> > > Thanks, Suzanne
>
> Actually the Melissenoi were discussed in this newsgroup before. See:
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=3AF5C880.3158243A%40
club-internet.fr
<...>
Note that there is nothing in that post that can sustain the claim that the
Melissenoi were a proeminent family of the Byzantine aristocracy in the
13th-15th century.
Pierre