HELEN OF GALLOWAY
PEhle...@aol.com
January 3, 1996. In this article, she states that Helen of Galloway was NOT
the daughter of Margaret de Huntingdon, second wife of Sir Alan of Galloway.
She states that Helen was the child of his first wife. Who was the first wife
of Sir Alan and the mother of Helen?
Can anyone extend the ancestry of Helen of Galloway?
Thanks for your help.
Regards
Phyllis in Louisiana
Leo van de Pas
Dear Phyllis,
This was a horrid question to come up with. :-))
I looked first in my data base and found that I have
Helen as a daughter of Margaret of Huntingdon. However,
I prefer to look at proper sources itself, and here we
go:
The Complete Peerage Vol.XII/2 page 752,753
Roger de Quincy, Earl of Winchester, married (1)
Helen, second but first surviving daughter and co-heir
of Alan, Lord of Galloway, Constable of Scotland (d.1234), by his first wife.
Yuck, no name given for the first wife. In Volume XIV
there is no mention of this couple.
I could not find an entry in Burke's Extinct Peerage.
Paget, in his books on the ancestors of Prince Charles,
Volume 1, page 155. This gives about Margaret :
married 1209 as second wife, Alan, Lord of Galloway,
by him (who died 1234):
(1) Helen, married before 1234, as his first wife Roger de
Quincy, 2nd Earl of Winchester
And now (poor Kay), the much maligned Turton, well, you
should compare available sources. Page 101
Roger de Quincy married Helen of Galloway, daughter of
Alan, Lord of Galloway, and his first wife (indicated
by an 1) NN of The Isles.
By NN of The Isles is a reference to page 102.
There you find, I'd better make an ancestorlist based on
(God Forbid!) Turton :
1.NN of The Isles
2.Reginald Lord of The Isles
died 1209
3.Fonia of Moray
4.Somerled II, Lord of The Isles
died 1164
5.Ragnhild of Man
6.Ranulph, Earl of Moray
7.Bethoc
8.Gillebridge
9.NN
10.Olave I, King of Man
11.Ingebiorg of Orkney
12.Dunegal
13.NN
14.NN
15.NN
I feel (please correct me) that the Complete Peerage is
more reliable than Burke's (Paget is Burke based) and so
do we accept CP and make Helen a daughter of the first wife?
And recluctantly accept NN of The Isles as Helen's mother?
I could not find another source establishing Alan of Galloway's first wife---
I think this is a problem worth correcting and so with
Phyllis : HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Leo van de Pas
James C. Woodard
I am about to make it worse not better. Weis Ancestral Roots 7th Ed. Line
38:26 says;
26. Alan, Lord of Galloway, named in the Magna Carta, Constable of Scotland
1215-1234, d. 1234; m. (1) a dau. of Hugh de Lacy, Earl of Ulster (died
1243) by his first wife, Lesceline, dau. of Bertram de Verdun(Orpen, Ireland
under the Normans III chart p. 286) or a dau. or sister of Roger de Lacy of
Pontefract(Translation of the Dumfrieshire and Galloway Nat. Hist. Soc.,
49:49-55) m. (2) Margaret of Huntingdon (94-27). (CP IV 670 chart IV; SP
IV 139-143).
In generation 27 he makes Helen of Galloway the dau.. of the 1st marriage.
Perhaps someone on the group has access to the two sources cited in Weis?
Jim
James C. Woodard
mailto: gwy...@aracnet.com
http://www.aracnet.com/~gwyddon
"The best to all in this season of Peace, Joy, Impeachment, Good Will
Towards Men, and the Politics of Personal Destruction." paraphrased with
permission of John Steel Gordon
Leo van de Pas wrote in message
<3.0.2.32.1999010...@mail.iinet.net.au>...
ray montgomery
The lds ancestral file has all three.
just thought i would throw that in!(g):)
RAY
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Michael Mcguinn
Galloway, married first a sister or daughter of Roger de Lacy of
Pontefract, Constable of Chester, and issue from that marriage was Helen
of Galloway.
Michael
U...@aol.com
writes:
> Can anyone extend the ancestry of Helen of Galloway?
> Thanks for your help.
> Regards
> Phyllis in Louisiana
>
CAVEAT EMPTOR
Ancestors of Helen MacDonal of Galloway
Generation No. 1
1. Helen MacDonal of Galloway (Source: W, 139-2.), born Abt. 1208; died Aft.
21-Nov-1245. She was the daughter of 2. Alan of Galloway and 3. NN
FitzRichard. She married (1) Roger de Quincy (Source: W, 74-2.). He was the
son of Saire IV de Quincy and Margaret de Beaumont.
Notes for Roger de Quincy:
Buried Brackley, Northants, England
Children of Helen and Roger are:
i. Margaret de Quincy (Source: W, 88-3.), born Abt. 1218 in Lincoln,
Lincoln, ENG; died Abt. 11-Mar-1283/84 in Clerkenwell, ENG; married William de
Ferrers Abt. 1238.
Notes for William de Ferrers:
7th Earl of Derby
ii. Helen de Quincy (Source: W, 74-3.), born Abt. 1222 in of Winchester,
Hants, ENG; died Bef. 20-Aug-1296; married Alan la Zouce Bef. 1242.
Notes for Helen de Quincy:
See: Weis AR74 [53-29]; Weis MC75 [74-3]; ES233 iii, 356a.
Notes for Alan la Zouce:
Baron Zouche of Ashby la Zouche (Leics); Constable in the Tower of London.
See: Weis AR74 [39-29]; Weis AR74 [186-3]; Weis MC75 [74-3]; ES233 iii, 708.
iii. Elizabeth de Quincy, died Bef. Nov-1328; married Alexander Comyn.
Generation No. 2
2. Alan of Galloway (Source: W, 139-1.), born Abt. 1186; died 1234. He was
the son of 4. Roland of Galloway and 5. Elena de Morville. He married 3. NN
FitzRichard.
3. NN FitzRichard. She was the daughter of 6. John FitzRichard and 7. Alice
de Vere.
Notes for Alan of Galloway:
Lord of Galloway
Notes for Margaret de Huntington:
Daughter of Prince David, a grandson of King David of Scotland.
Child of Alan and NN is:
1 i. Helen MacDonal of Galloway, born Abt. 1208; died Aft. 21-Nov-1245;
married Roger de Quincy.
Children of Alan and Margaret are:
i. Devorgilla of Galloway (Source: W, 140-2.), born Abt. 1218 in Galloway,
Wigtownshire, Scotland; died 28-Jan-1289/90 in Kemston, BDF, ENG; married John
de Baliol Abt. 1233 in Galloway, Wigtownshire, Scotland.
Notes for John de Baliol:
Lord of Barnard Castle
ii. Christian of Galloway, married William de Fortibus.
Notes for William de Fortibus:
Titular Comte d'Aumale, Lord of Holderness.
Generation No. 3
4. Roland of Galloway (Source: Ä, 38-25.), born Abt. 1164 in Galloway,
Perthshire, SCT; died Dec-1200 in NTH, ENG. He was the son of 8. Uchtred of
Galloway and 9. Gunnild of Dunbar. He married 5. Elena de Morville.
5. Elena de Morville (Source: Ä, 38-25.), born 1153 in Kirkoswald, CUL, ENG;
died 11-Jun-1217. She was the daughter of 10. Richard de Morville and 11.
Avice de Lancaster.
Child of Roland and Elena is:
2 i. Alan of Galloway, born Abt. 1186; died 1234; married (1) NN FitzRichard;
married (2) Margaret de Huntington 1209.
6. John FitzRichard (Source: BxP, 310.), died 1179 in Palestine. He was the
son of 12. Richard FitzEustace and 13. Albreda de Lisours. He married 7.
Alice de Vere.
7. Alice de Vere.
Notes for John FitzRichard:
John [de Lacy] Constable of Chester.
--- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194,
genealogical chart following p 260.
Ingerited the Barony of Halton and Constableship of Chester from his
stepgrandfather.
Ed Mann has death in 1179
Notes for Alice de Vere:
Children of John and Alice are:
3 i. NN FitzRichard, married Alan of Galloway.
ii. Roger de Lacy (Source: BxP, 310.), born Abt. 1171 in Lincoln, LIN, ENG
(Source: Susan Shannon, susa...@SUNDIAL.SUNDIAL.NET); died 1211 (Source:
Susan Shannon, susa...@SUNDIAL.SUNDIAL.NET); married Maud de Clare.
Notes for Roger de Lacy:
Constable of Chester, Lord of Pontefract, Buried in Stanlow Abbey.
--- W E Wightman, *The Lacy Family in England and Normandy, 1066-1194,
genealogical chart following p 260.
Sidney Painter (Studies in the History of the English Feudal Barony) did a
[preliminary] study of baronial incomes between 1160 and 1320 (chapter VII).
Of fifty-four barons he tallied figures for during a part of that period,
Roger
de Lacy, constable of Chester, had the highest income in England at his death
in 1210 (800 pounds per annum). Next was William, Earl of Gloucester at 700
pounds, Robert, Earl of Leicester, at 560 pounds, and then Earl William de
Mandeville at 504 pounds per annum. So this would explain, in part, why John
de Lacy was vaulted to the peerage when the opportunity presented itself
without much dispute. The palatine Earl of Chester only had an annual income
of 327 pounds per annum in Henry II's reign.
Notes for Maud de Clare:
> << I have Roger de Lacy (died 1211, son of John de Lacy and Alice de Vere)
as
> marrying Maud/Matilda de Clare. They were the parents of John de Lacy,
> who married Margaret de Quincy. Does anyone know how this Maud de Clare
> fits into the larger de Clare family? Or what her birth, marriage and
> death dates are?
> >>
>
> The Maud de Clare you are referring to is the daughter of Richard de Clare,
> Earl of Hertford and Amicia FitzRobert, Countess of Gloucester. Maud de
Clare
> was born about 1184 and died in 1213. Amicia, Maud's mother, was the grand-
> daughter of Robert de Caen, known as the consul or "The King's Son", natural
> son of Henry I Beaclerc, King of England.
>
> Lloyd King >>
>
>I show that Maud as wife of William de Braiose. Was the same Maud married to
>both?
>
Someone may have already given the substance of the note below. If so, sorry
for the repetition.
CP VII:676 says that John de Lacy earl of Lincoln was the son of Roger
(constable of Chester) and Maud de Clare. As far as I can see no evidence is
given for this marriage and no indication is given of Maud's parents.
Wightman's 1966 study on the Lacy family does not name a wife for Roger (or
for his father, John). Also Altschul's 1965 study on the Clares does not
indicate a Maud/Matilda de Clare as a wife of Roger de Lacy, though as noted
above Altschul does have Matilda, dau. of Richard de Clare and Amicia of
Gloucester, as wife of (1) William de Braose (d.1210) and (2) Rhys Gryg
(d.1233). Had this Maud been the wife of Roger then her grand-dau. married
her nephew (i.e Maud de Lacy (d.1289) married in 1237 as his second wife
Richard de Clare earl of Gloucester (d.1262)) - a dispensation would
certainly have been required and as far as I can ascertain none was sought
or granted.
My conclusion from this is that if Roger de Lacy did marry a Maud de Clare
then she was not identical with the dau. of Richard and Amicia who married
William de Braose then Rhys Gryg.
Generation No. 4
8. Uchtred of Galloway (Source: Ä, 121B-27.), born Abt. 1100 in Carrick,
Ayrshire, SCT; died 22-Sep-1174. He was the son of 16. Fergus of Galloway and
17. Elizabeth FitzHenry. He married 9. Gunnild of Dunbar.
9. Gunnild of Dunbar (Source: Ä, 38-24.), born Abt. 1134 in Dunbar, East
Lothian, SCT. She was the daughter of 18. Waltheof de Dunbar and 19. Sigrid
of Allerdale.
Notes for Uchtred of Galloway:
Lord of Galloway
Child of Uchtred and Gunnild is:
4 i. Roland of Galloway, born Abt. 1164 in Galloway, Perthshire, SCT; died
Dec-1200 in NTH, ENG; married Elena de Morville.
10. Richard de Morville, born Abt. 1143 in Burgh-By-Sands, CUL, ENG; died
1189. He married 11. Avice de Lancaster Abt. 1167.
11. Avice de Lancaster, born Abt. 1155 in CUL, ENG; died 1-Jan-1190/91 in
Kirkoswald, CUL, ENG.
Child of Richard and Avice is:
5 i. Elena de Morville, born 1153 in Kirkoswald, CUL, ENG; died 11-Jun-1217;
married Roland of Galloway.
12. Richard FitzEustace. He married 13. Albreda de Lisours.
13. Albreda de Lisours. She was the daughter of 26. Eudo de Lisours and 27.
Albrida.
Child of Richard and Albreda is:
6 i. John FitzRichard, died 1179 in Palestine; married Alice de Vere.
Generation No. 5
16. Fergus of Galloway (Source: Ä, 38-24.), died 1166. He married 17.
Elizabeth FitzHenry.
17. Elizabeth FitzHenry (Source: Ä, 121B-26.). She was the daughter of 34.
Henry I, King of England and 35. Nest verch Rhys of Wales.
Children of Fergus and Elizabeth are:
8 i. Uchtred of Galloway, born Abt. 1100 in Carrick, Ayrshire, SCT; died
22-Sep-1174; married Gunnild of Dunbar.
ii. Gilbert of Galloway (Source: Ä, 121C-27.), born Abt. 1126 in Carrick,
Ayrshire, SCT; died 1-Jan-1184/85.
Notes for Gilbert of Galloway:
aka FitzFergus of Carrick
18. Waltheof de Dunbar, born Abt. 1062 in Dunbar, East Lothian, SCT; died
Abt. 1138. He was the son of 36. Gospatric of Northumbria and 37. AEthelreda
of England. He married 19. Sigrid of Allerdale.
19. Sigrid of Allerdale, born 1075 in SCT; died Aft. 1126.
Notes for Waltheof de Dunbar:
Baron of Allerdale, Abbot of Crowland
Child of Waltheof and Sigrid is:
9 i. Gunnild of Dunbar, born Abt. 1134 in Dunbar, East Lothian, SCT; married
Uchtred of Galloway.
26. Eudo de Lisours. He married 27. Albrida.
27. Albrida.
Child of Eudo and Albrida is:
13 i. Albreda de Lisours, married Richard FitzEustace.
Always optimistic--Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> 6. John FitzRichard (Source: BxP, 310.), died 1179 in Palestine. He was the
> son of 12. Richard FitzEustace and 13. Albreda de Lisours. He married 7.
> Alice de Vere.
>
>
> 13. Albreda de Lisours. She was the daughter of 26. Eudo de Lisours and 27.
> Albrida.
>
>
> 27. Albrida.
>
The father of Albreda de Lisours, wife of Richard Fitz Eustace, was
Robert de Lisours (son of Fulk).
taf
U...@aol.com
ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
>
> The father of Albreda de Lisours, wife of Richard Fitz Eustace, was
> Robert de Lisours (son of Fulk).
>
> taf
>
Thanks--By his wife Aubrey de Lacy??
Dave
Todd A. Farmerie
>
> In a message dated 01/12/1999 2:09:50 PM Pacific Standard Time,
> ta...@po.cwru.edu writes:
>
> > The father of Albreda de Lisours, wife of Richard Fitz Eustace, was
> > Robert de Lisours (son of Fulk).
>
By his wife Aubrey, whose other husband was a Lacy (Richard?). There
was no blood relationship between the earlier Lacys and the later ones.
taf
Todd A. Farmerie
I rush to retract this. When I pulled out my Lisours reference to
confirm the name of the husband, I ended up glancing at the wrong chart
- the 'this was the former reconstruction that I am correcting' chart.
The chart on the next page, the 'this is the new reconstruction' chart
shows that Albreda de Lisours was daughter of Robert de Lisours by
Aubrey de Lacy, who was daughter (not daughter-in-law) of Richard de
Lacy. Sorry for the confusion, and thanks to those who brought it to my
attention.
taf
ray montgomery
Do you have any further info on the ancestry of this fulk de lisours or
the name of his wife?
Sincerely
RAY
On Fri, 15 Jan 1999 09:05:36 -0500 "Todd A. Farmerie" <ta...@po.cwru.edu>
writes:
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