Ancestry of Sir Frederick Tilney
LEA...@aol.com
do not have a copy of CP here and this line has many descendants. Burke
actually contradicts himself on this line as he states information on Joan de
Badlesmere and under Badlesmere doesn't list her. Could someone please
review this lineage and comment?
Sir John de Northwode, 1st Baron Northwode m. Joan de Badlesmere (cited as
eldest daughter of Sir Bartholomew Badlesmere (and Margaret de Clare) and
co-heir of Giles de Badlesmere.
/
Sir Roger de Northwode, 2nd Baron Northwode m. Julian de Say
/
Sir John de Northwode, 3rd Baron Northwode m. Joan Hart
/
Joan de Northwode m. Edmund Thorpe
/
Isabel Thorpe m. Philip Tilney
/
Sir Frederick Tilney m. Elizabeth Cheney
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
MichaelAnne Guido
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <LEA...@aol.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 11:37 AM
Subject: Ancestry of Sir Frederick Tilney
> The source for the following line is Burke's Extinct and Dormant Peerages.
I
> do not have a copy of CP here and this line has many descendants. Burke
> actually contradicts himself on this line as he states information on Joan
de
> Badlesmere and under Badlesmere doesn't list her. Could someone please
> review this lineage and comment?
>
> Sir John de Northwode, 1st Baron Northwode m. Joan de Badlesmere (cited as
> eldest daughter of Sir Bartholomew Badlesmere (and Margaret de Clare) and
> co-heir of Giles de Badlesmere.
.....................Burke's Extinct Peerage does not give Sir Bartholomew
Badlesmere a daughter Joan. The Complete Peerage Volume IX page 755
gives us more :
John married (query about 1275) Joan de Badlesmere. In the main entry no
parents for her, but in the footnote she is first called daughter of
Guncelin (Joscelin) but then "Her age would make it likely that Joan was
sister, not daughter of Guncelin". This means Joan is the aunt (not
daughter) of Bartholomew.
Here you missed one generation
John de Northwode, who died in his father's lifetime 8 September 1318
and was married to Agnes Grandison, daughter of William.
> /
> Sir Roger de Northwode, 2nd Baron Northwode m. Julian de Say
...........He was married five times
> /
> Sir John de Northwode, 3rd Baron Northwode m. Joan Hart
..............CP calls the wife Joan Hert (daughter of Robert)
..............Extinct Peerage calls her Hart. Sadly, Extinct Peerage only
mentions two sons, Roger, 4th Baron, and William, 5th Baron, no daughters..
However, as stated below from Joan de Norwood (Northwode) all those
details are recorded in Gerald Paget's book on the ancestors of Prince
Charles. And so the only discrepancy I found is the Badlesmere parentage.
Hope this helps?
Best wishes
Leo van de Pas
Richard Borthwick
I noticed that CP XII/1:724 & XI:503 & note (c) do not identify John de
Northwood (father of Joan) as the 3rd lord Northwode (nor is it ruled out).
Is Paget the authority for this identification?
Richard
Leo van de Pas
Paget calls them Norwood. Accoring to CP IX page 757, the 3rd Baron became
Baron in 1361.
Hope this clarifies
Leo van de Pas
Richard Borthwick
At 05:23 PM 17/11/99 +0800, you wrote:
>No CP Volume IX page 757 this is the proper entry for the Northwode family.
>Paget calls them Norwood. Accoring to CP IX page 757, the 3rd Baron became
>Baron in 1361.
>Hope this clarifies
>Leo van de Pas
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
but it does not indicate that he is to identified with the John Northwood
father of Joan wife of Sir Edmund Thorpe. The problem is that the two
entries which I cited do not make this identification or suggest it (though
the chronology certainly looks OK). These two references merely state that
she was the daughter of John Northwood. For some years I thought there
might be a connection, but until this thread got started I had not seen a
claim that Joan was indeed the daughter of the 3rd lord Northwode. I take
it Paget makes the identification in his *Ancestry of the Prince of Wales*
(if I have the title right). Do you have the vol. and table number? CP XIV
indicates no upgrade of information under Thorpe, Scales or Northwode on
this question, though this may just a correction not drawn to the editor's
attention. If Joan is the daughter of John lord Northwode then she has an
interesting ancestry.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Borthwick <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Frederick Tilney
>
> At 05:23 PM 17/11/99 +0800, you wrote:
> >No CP Volume IX page 757 this is the proper entry for the Northwode
family.
> >Paget calls them Norwood. Accoring to CP IX page 757, the 3rd Baron
became
> >Baron in 1361.
> >Hope this clarifies
> >Leo van de Pas
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> Thanks for your reply. CP IX:575 gives the entry for John lord Northwode
> but it does not indicate that he is to identified with the John Northwood
> father of Joan wife of Sir Edmund Thorpe.
I agree. I misunderstood your question. In Paget's book Joan de Norwood
is not even mentioned. I still think de Norwood/Northwood may not even be
the same. I wonder where MichaelAnne Guido found it.
Hope to hear more.
Leo van de Pas
LEA...@aol.com
This lineage was sent to me and I originally thought the line quite spurious.
I want to pursue this because if the marriages are true ( which I believe
they may be)
this woman married Roger de Scales, 4th Baron Scales and then Sir Edmund
Thorpe. Her son by her first marriage was Robert de Scales, 5th Baron Scales.
Burke's extinct Peerage under Scales has her listed as Joan, daughter of Sir
John de Northwode. There is no mention of this Sir John de Northwode
being the third Baron Northwode, but again it is implied. I am also curious
about what CP has to say in relationship to her under Scales.
Richard you cited both marriages. What is your source for this?
Sincerely,
MichaelAnne
Leo van de Pas
CP Volume XI page 503 under de Scales family entry.
Roger de Scales, 4th Lord Scales married Joan, daughter of John de
Northwood. (footnote C, Chester Waters (op.cit., pp 253-255) and Bloomfield
(op.cit., vol IX, p 23) describe her as daughter of Sir Robert Northwood or
Norwood. The true pedigree is given in Arch. Cant., vol ii, pp 14,36,37, the
authority being an early account of the Northwood family of Kent, based, so
far as Joan's parentage is concerned, on proceedings in the Common Bench,
Mich., 47 Edw.III.
CP Volume XIV does not change anything for this part.
Personally I feel Joan does not belong to the Barons Northwode, but perhaps
someone has more positive reasons for or against.
Leo van de Pas
----- Original Message -----
From: <LEA...@aol.com>
To: <leov...@iinet.net.au>; <rg...@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Cc: <Gen-med...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 1999 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Sir Frederick Tilney
Mardi Carter
says she m. Sir John de Northwood, who was Sheriff of Kent temp. E. I; summoned
to Parliament among the Barons temp. E. II (Dub. Bar. vol. II p 70); and d. 14 E.
II.
Douglas Richardson
Regarding your Thorpe-Northwood connection below, my research shows
that Edmund Thorpe's wife, Joan Northwood, widow of Roger Scales, Lord
Scales, was the daughter and sole heiress of John de Northwood (died
1362), of Shalford and Great Saling, Essex, by his wife, Katherine.
Joan was age eight at her father's death in 1362, or born about 1354.
As far as John de Northwood's place in the main Northwood family goes,
I can provide the following descent:
1. John de Northwood, of Northwood, Thornham, etc., Kent (died 1319),
married Joan, daughter of Guncelin de Badlesmere
2. Humphrey de Northwood, of Shalford, Essex, younger son, born ca.
1284, adult by 1322, living 1340
3. John de Northwood, of Shalford and Great Saling, Essex (died 1362),
married Katherine
4. Joan Northwood, born c. 1354, died 1415, married (lst) before 1373,
Roger Scales, Lord Scales; married (2nd) before 1388, Edmund Thorpe,
Knt.
I trust this answers your question regarding the Northwood ancestry in
back of Sir Frederick Tilney.
Sincerely, Douglas Richardson
In article <0.4477d06...@aol.com>, LEA...@aol.com wrote:
> The source for the following line is Burke's Extinct and Dormant
> Peerages. I
> do not have a copy of CP here and this line has many descendants.
> Burke
> actually contradicts himself on this line as he states information
> on Joan de
> Badlesmere and under Badlesmere doesn't list her. Could someone
> please
> review this lineage and comment?
> Sir John de Northwode, 1st Baron Northwode m. Joan de Badlesmere
> (cited as
> eldest daughter of Sir Bartholomew Badlesmere (and Margaret de
> Clare) and
> co-heir of Giles de Badlesmere.
> /
> Sir Roger de Northwode, 2nd Baron Northwode m. Julian de Say
> /
> Sir John de Northwode, 3rd Baron Northwode m. Joan Hart
> /
> Joan de Northwode m. Edmund Thorpe
> /
> Isabel Thorpe m. Philip Tilney
> /
> Sir Frederick Tilney m. Elizabeth Cheney
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> Sincerely,
> MichaelAnne Guido
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