Who did Herbert I de Vermandois Marry?

[PEhle...@aol.com]

The question has been raised as to whom was Herbert I de Vermandois (ca.
840-902) married. The choices appear to be: 1. Beatrice (Bertha) of Morvois
OR: 2. Richilde, daughter of Robert "the Strong" IV, Count of Wormgau, Anjou,
Blois, Auxerre, and Nevers. Does anyone have any documentation as to whom
poor Herbert was wed to? All help appreciated.
TIA
Phyllis

[Alan B. Wilson]

Robert IV "the Strong", count in the Wormsgau (Robert I as Count of
Paris) m2 Adelaide of Tours. Their son, Robert II, Count of Paris, etc.,
m. Beatrice of Vermandois, dau. of Herbert I of Vermandois and Beatrice
(Bertha) of Morvois.

Possibly a Richilde was dau. of Robert IV (I, of Paris) and his first
wife, Agnes. Richilde m. Theobald, Count of Tours.

See, e.g., ES ii, 10 and iii, 49; also Weis, AR 48:17 & 18.

--
Alan B. Wilson
abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu

[Francisco Antonio Doria]

7/12/98 2:26 PM Alan B. Wilson wrote:

>
> Robert IV "the Strong", count in the Wormsgau (Robert I as Count of
>Paris) m2 Adelaide of Tours.

Recently (1989) Luiz de Mello Vaz de Sampayo suggested in a well-argued paper that Richer's ~Witichinus" hypothesis (Witichinus as father of Robert le Fort) may stand on solid ground. He takes Witichinus as Wittchen - Little Witus,* or better as Witus (Guido) the Young. He still plugs the whole family into Gloeckner's Robertini but from a side branch. Some reasonable onomastics support his claim. (Raízes & Troféus, no. 2.)

*He follows Calmette's hypothesis. (Was it from Calmette? I quote from memory.)

Chico Doria

>Alan B. Wilson
>abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
>
>

[Richard Borthwick]

At 05:26 PM 12/07/98 GMT, you wrote:
>In article <635157a9...@aol.com>, PEhle...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> The question has been raised as to whom was Herbert I de Vermandois (ca.
>> 840-902) married. The choices appear to be: 1. Beatrice (Bertha) of
Morvois
>> OR: 2. Richilde, daughter of Robert "the Strong" IV, Count of Wormgau,
Anjou,
>> Blois, Auxerre, and Nevers. Does anyone have any documentation as to whom
>> poor Herbert was wed to? All help appreciated.
>> TIA
>> Phyllis
>

> Robert IV "the Strong", count in the Wormsgau (Robert I as Count of

>Paris) m2 Adelaide of Tours. Their son, Robert II, Count of Paris, etc.,
>m. Beatrice of Vermandois, dau. of Herbert I of Vermandois and Beatrice
>(Bertha) of Morvois.
>
> Possibly a Richilde was dau. of Robert IV (I, of Paris) and his first
>wife, Agnes. Richilde m. Theobald, Count of Tours.
>
> See, e.g., ES ii, 10 and iii, 49; also Weis, AR 48:17 & 18.
>
>--
>Alan B. Wilson
>abwi...@uclink2.berkeley.edu
>

The marriage of Robert the Strong to Adelais dau. of Hugo count of Tours is
much disputed. Settipani *La prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987: Premiere
Partie* p.400 n.13 reviews the litertaure on this subject. His own tentative
solution is to make his wife Emma a dau. of Adelais and Konrad of Auxerre
(to whom Adelais was certainly married). He notes that the argument for his
own solution will be forthcoming in the second part of his work. The
negative thesis that Adelais was not Robert's wife is strong. That the
transmission of the name 'Hugo' to the Capetian clan is from the Etichonid
Hugo of Tours is also probable (or stronger). I will be interested to see
Settipani's arguments.
>

[Richard Borthwick]

I am resending this post with an addition namely a comment on the question
asked. For some reason I got side-tracked.

The wife of Heribert I is unknown. Needless to say there are several
hypotheses see C Settipani *La prehistoire des Capetiens 481-987: Premiere
Partie* p.222 n.218, and Tableau 8. CS himself very tentatively suggests a
Lietgardis of Troyes. K F Werner in *Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen* at
V.3 in his Tafel does not indentify anyone as Heribert's wife (nor in his
discussion of Heribert in his "Untersuchungen zur Fruehzeit des
franzoesischen Fuerstentums (9.-10. Jahrhundert): V." in *Welt als
Geschichte* 20 (1960) pp.93-100).