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Insight/Hire Genealogist for Medieval Research
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Girl57
Mar 20, 2022, 3:28:43 PM3/20/22
to
My bucket list includes an item re: professional help filling in at least one of the few medieval lines identifiable in my family tree.
Can anyone recommend an experienced and reliable person or company? Would this be monstrously expensive? Does anyone know if Douglas Richardson of royalancestry.net has genealogist associates who do this?
Also wondering about the best way to check and see if related work has already been done/exists in some accessible form. I know almost nothing about medieval genealogy and wouldn't know where to start.
A couple of my lines of interest are connected to the FitzRandolph family of York (Spennithorne) and Nottinghamshire: the ancestry of Cuthbert Langton (d. 1515) and his father Thomas (d. 1498) of Langton Hall near Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts.; and the ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily? If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
Thank you for any input.
Can anyone recommend an experienced and reliable person or company? Would this be monstrously expensive? Does anyone know if Douglas Richardson of royalancestry.net has genealogist associates who do this?
Also wondering about the best way to check and see if related work has already been done/exists in some accessible form. I know almost nothing about medieval genealogy and wouldn't know where to start.
A couple of my lines of interest are connected to the FitzRandolph family of York (Spennithorne) and Nottinghamshire: the ancestry of Cuthbert Langton (d. 1515) and his father Thomas (d. 1498) of Langton Hall near Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Notts.; and the ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily? If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
Thank you for any input.
taf
Mar 20, 2022, 8:52:35 PM3/20/22
to
On Sunday, March 20, 2022 at 12:28:43 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> . . . and the ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
> If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
Depends on what he was, and a lot depends on chance. You have a better probability of finding an informative will for a London livery company member than for a backwater younger son of the gentry, but less of a chance of finding a pedigree source such as a visitation.
taf
> . . . and the ancestry of Frances Howes/Howis/Howls (d. 1631), second wife of Edward FitzRandolph and mother of Edward "the pilgrim."
>
> Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily?
Not necessarily. It is not uncommon at all for the lower ranks of the gentry to marry the daughters of the bourgeoisie, and vice versa.
> Re: Frances, wondering if someone called a "gentleman," like Edward Sr., would have married the daughter of another gentleman, or not necessarily?
> If Frances's father not in that category, would it likely be a lot harder to trace him?
taf
joseph cook
Mar 21, 2022, 12:15:16 AM3/21/22
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I don't believe the names of Frances Howes/Holws are known in any currently published work. Ditto the ancestors of Cuthbert Langton as far as I can recall.
If that's the case, finding someone to do research in this area would not be "monstrously expensive" for what the task entails; but probably starting at $5000 with no guarantee of results whatsoever.v Given that these particular lines have received a lot of attention over the years.
--Joe C
Vance Mead
Mar 21, 2022, 7:36:13 AM3/21/22
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I think I can tell you a bit more about the ancestry of Langton of Kirkby in Ashfield, Notts.
It probably goes John (born about 1380), Richard (born 1406/7), Thomas (born 1430-40), Cuthbert
(born 1463).
There's an inquisition post mortem of John Langton:
https://inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-449/
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield Notts, writ November 1430, inquisition January 1431
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield, one messuage called ‘Langtonplace’, worth nothing yearly, and six closes of arable, each worth 20d. yearly, held of Elizabeth and Margery, daughters and heirs of Philip Darcy, as 1/100 knight’s fee.
He died on 3 May last. Richard Langton, his son and next heir, is aged 24 and more.
Richard born 1406/7 is in common pleas in 1458:
Langton, Richard, son of Langton, John, of Kyrkeby in Asshefeld, yeoman
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/788
In 1484 Thomas Langton was in Common Pleas:
Langton, Thomas, of Langton Hall, in Kyrkby, Notts, gent
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/890
Thomas Langton died 1489 (IPM)
Cuthbert age 26 years and more is his son and heir. (born about 1463)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/522/mode/2up?view=theater
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/520/mode/2up?view=theater
Thomas born about 1430-40 left the same land to his son as John had left to Richard.
A messuage and 23 bovates of land in Kyrkebe, worth 12 L, held of the Lord Darcy by a hundredth part of a knight's fee.
It probably goes John (born about 1380), Richard (born 1406/7), Thomas (born 1430-40), Cuthbert
(born 1463).
There's an inquisition post mortem of John Langton:
https://inquisitionspostmortem.ac.uk/view/inquisition/23-449/
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield Notts, writ November 1430, inquisition January 1431
John Langton, of Kirkby in Ashfield, one messuage called ‘Langtonplace’, worth nothing yearly, and six closes of arable, each worth 20d. yearly, held of Elizabeth and Margery, daughters and heirs of Philip Darcy, as 1/100 knight’s fee.
He died on 3 May last. Richard Langton, his son and next heir, is aged 24 and more.
Richard born 1406/7 is in common pleas in 1458:
Langton, Richard, son of Langton, John, of Kyrkeby in Asshefeld, yeoman
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/788
In 1484 Thomas Langton was in Common Pleas:
Langton, Thomas, of Langton Hall, in Kyrkby, Notts, gent
https://waalt.uh.edu/index.php/CP40/890
Thomas Langton died 1489 (IPM)
Cuthbert age 26 years and more is his son and heir. (born about 1463)
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/522/mode/2up?view=theater
https://archive.org/details/calendarofinquis03great/page/520/mode/2up?view=theater
Thomas born about 1430-40 left the same land to his son as John had left to Richard.
A messuage and 23 bovates of land in Kyrkebe, worth 12 L, held of the Lord Darcy by a hundredth part of a knight's fee.
Girl57
Mar 21, 2022, 6:01:44 PM3/21/22
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*A deliberate forgery in the FitzRandolph pedigree was mentioned. Which part(s)? Is the Mary/Roger Bigod generation probably sound but not proved?
JOHN, UNPROVEN
*About the probably-correct-but-unproven, more recent generation which led to removal of this line from latest edition of The Magna Carta Sureties: Is this generation 10-11...a John is the father of Christopher FitzRandolph who m. Joan Langton -- John who was presumed to be a younger son of Sir John FitzRandolph and Joan Conyers of Spennithorne? Was this John identified through Magna Carta Sureties reference, "...the FitzRandolph pedigree in the British Museum starts with this John..."? See generation #11, here:
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=59XcwoRK9jkC&pg=GBS.PA193.w.3.4.0_155&printsec=frontcover
Is it likely that this is the same John (living in Nottinghamshire or Derbyshire in the time of Cuthbert Langton?) cited as enfeoffed by Cuthbert Langton? See c), here (Thoroton's Nottinghamshire, p. 296):
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/History_of_Nottinghamshire/xD4uAAAAMAAJ?q=%22cuthbert+langton%22&gbpv=1#f=false
What is the evidence that this John likely died around 1517 (have seen this reference in several places)? A will/probate documents...any tracing of what happened to lands he might have had, connecting him to son Christopher?
CHRISTOPHER "PARSON" FITZRANDOLPH'S WILL
*Separately, has the John FitzRandolph mentioned in the 1516 will of Christopher "parson" (parson believed to be another son of Sir John and Joan Conyers) ever been researched/identified/parentage been hypothesized? This John was under 21 when the will was made, and when his care was given over by the parson to an Antony Burgh. The will reads, "...and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodys as moch as commes to xxti marc. Item I will that Antony Burgh be keper of the sayde John and his goodes to the tyme he come to xxjti yere of his age and gif to hyme mete, drynke and cloth, with somme lernyng, thenne the sayde Antony Burgh to delyver to the said John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and other goodes to the valour of xxti marke, and if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age thenne the goodes to be geven to the kirke aforesaid or as they thynke best for the welth of my saule. Item I bequeth to Antony Burgh all my ferme of Langton Hall."
Could mention of a Burgh in the Kirkby parson's will -- perhaps related to the John Burgh of East Hawkswell, married to Margaret/Margery FitzRandall, presumed sister of the parson/daughter of John FitzRandolph and Joan Conyers -- be another indication of tie between the Spennithorne and Nottinghamshire FitzRandolphs? See History of Richmondshire, p. 327, here:
https://archive.org/details/historyofrichmon12whit/page/n409/mode/2up?ref=ol&view=theater&q=Burgh
Do names of witnesses to Christopher "parson's" will give useful clues to anything? "...Item I bequeth to Thomas Wyngke one gowne cloth. Item I bequeth to Sir William Betson one gowne cloth. Item I will that Antony Burgh and Christofer Fitzrandolf be myne executours, they to dispose the residue of my goodes as thay thynk best for the heile of my saule. Thies being witnes, Sir Thomas Wynke, Sir William Beitson, Roberte Edwarde, Hewe Voluntyne, William Worth, and other moo.
Would it be possible or useful to research where Christopher "parson" was educated for the clergy? Do records of that kind even exist? Would they possibly mention his parentage? For example, see FamilySearch.org, Clergy of Church of England, "University Graduates" section, here (though our parson of course lived before creation of Church of England):
https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/Clergy_of_Church_of_England_(in_England)
CHRISTOPHER WHO M. JOAN LANGTON
*Even if the generations 10-11 connection can't be proved, does the preponderance of evidence around Christopher (d. 1570) point to the Spennithorne FitzRandolphs as his ancestral family?
*If Christopher's father John wasn't a younger son of John FitzRandolph and Joan Conyers, could he have been the son of a brother of Sir John FitzRandolph? How much is known about the male siblings of the Lords of Spennithorne and their descendants?
*Are Christopher's probate records published (1570 letters of administration granted to wife Joan and son Thomas?) I've seen references to these letters, etc., but wonder if they've been published or translated in full.
FITZRANDOLPHS, STRELLEYS, DARCYS, LANGTONS
Is it correct that the FitzRandolphs, Strelleys, Darcys, and Langtons were interconnected BEFORE Christopher "parson" was presented to the Kirkby-in-Ashfield parish through Sir John Conyers's advowson around 1490? If so, are these interconnections, and the advowson, solid evidence that Spennithorne and Nottinghamshire FitzRandolphs were closely related?
SIR BRIAN?
Who is Sir Brian FitzRandolph, who is named in at least one or two sources as the father of Elizabeth FitzRandolph, daughter of Sir Ralph FitzRandolph and Elizabeth (Scrope?), and who married Sir Nicolas Strelley of Linby, Nottinghamshire? (Strelley who is named in some Christopher "parson"-related documents). See Nottinghamshire History, end of paragraph #2, here:
http://www.nottshistory.org.uk/books/bonser1948/sutton19.htm
Also, see Thoroton's Nottinghamshire, Vol. II, p. 281, e), here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xD4uAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA296&lpg=PA296&dq=%22cuthbert+langton%22&source=bl&ots=qckAdD-UIh&sig=E4s4FGjV2S0oo_IdWkvTmbsGASs&hl=en&ei=5PVfTNWYONCT4gbMtLXSBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAw=onepage&q=langton&f=false#v=onepage&q=Fitz%20Randolph&f=false
These references contradict others to Elizabeth having married Sir Nicolas Strelley of Linby; see "Visitations of the North," p. 24, here:
https://archive.org/details/heraldicvisitat02/page/n49/mode/2up
DERBYSHIRE FITZRANDOLPHS -- WAY BACK
*Is there evidence that the Spennithorne-then-Kirkby-and-Sutton FitzRandolphs were related to the FitzRandolph family apparently established since 12th or 13th century in Derbyshire...that there was a far-distant common ancestor? Or is it possible that Christopher (d. 1570) didn't come from Spennithorne line at all, but from this old Derbyshire line? If this surname was rare in medieval and early modern England (as noted by Anthony R. Wagner, NEHGR, Vol. 99, p. 336), is it likely that these families were connected, even if distantly? See nottshistory link above, latter half of paragraph two, which reads:
"...In Rentals and Surveys A.D. 1295 in the P.R.O. appears the name of Walter Fitzrandolph when he paid a Fine of 3/2 for lands held of the king at Sutton-in-Ashfield and of his son Henry, who paid 5/-. The history of this branch is for many years obscure and it quietly lived its life at Sutton, and it is not again prominent till 1489, when in the Torre MSS. appears the name of Christopher Fitzrandolph as Rector of Kirkby when he died, and Thoroton in his account of Linby mentions Sir Brian Fitzrandolph whose daughter Elizabeth married Sir Nicholas Strelley, c. 1540, but died without issue."
My apologies that this is so long (and for many likely typos, etc.)! Is there any way to keep such details brief?
Will Johnson
Mar 21, 2022, 6:39:11 PM3/21/22
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What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?
Girl57
Mar 21, 2022, 7:27:14 PM3/21/22
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On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?
I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
> What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?
Will Johnson
Mar 21, 2022, 9:43:09 PM3/21/22
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You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
Girl57
Mar 22, 2022, 12:05:37 AM3/22/22
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Borthwick Institute for Archives
Will of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516
Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
[Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule to Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodys as moch as commes to xxti marc. Item I will that Antony Burgh be keper of the sayde John and his goodes to the tyme he come to xxjti yere of his age and gif to hyme mete, drynke and cloth, with somme lernyng, thenne the sayde Antony Burgh to delyver to the said John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and other goodes to the valour of xxti marke, and if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age thenne the goodes to be geven to the kirke aforesaid or as they thynke best for the welth of my saule. Item I bequeth to Antony Burgh all my ferme of Langton Hall. Item I bequeth to ilcone of my servantes their hoole yere wages. Item I bequeth to Thomas Wyngke one gowne cloth. Item I bequeth to Sir William Betson one gowne cloth. Item I will that Antony Burgh and Christofer Fitzrandolf be myne executours, they to dispose the residue of my goodes as thay thynk best for the heile of my saule. Thies being witnes, Sir Thomas Wynke, Sir William Beitson, Roberte Edwarde, Hewe Voluntyne, William Worth, and other moo.
[Marginated] Probate of the said will
On the seventeenth day of the month of July in the year of our lord abovesaid [1516] probate of the said will was granted by virtue of a commission and administration of the goods of the same deceased was granted to Christofer Fitzrandolf, co-executor named in the said will, in form of law, sworn; reserving the same power of administration to be granted to Anthony Brugh, executor in the same will named, when he should come to receive it in form of law etc.
© University of York
*****
Will Johnson
Mar 22, 2022, 11:03:39 AM3/22/22
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It's a bit odd that he would give him 10 cows and then ask for the 10 to be given back
That seems a bit harsh.
And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a bequest
taf
Mar 22, 2022, 1:12:12 PM3/22/22
to
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 8:03:39 AM UTC-7, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:05:37 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?
> > > > I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
> > > It's not published.
> > > You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
> > I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a question or solve a longstanding problem? I'm wondering if maybe both Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1570) and Antony Burgh, co-executors of the parson's will, might have been nephews of the parson's? No relationships are stated herein, but in other sources I've seen co-exec Christopher referred to as the testator's cousin or nephew.
> >
> > Borthwick Institute for Archives
> >
> >
> > Will of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516
> >
> > Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
> >
> > [Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
> >
> > In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule to Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodys as moch as commes to xxti marc. Item I will that Antony Burgh be keper of the sayde John and his goodes to the tyme he come to xxjti yere of his age and gif to hyme mete, drynke and cloth, with somme lernyng, thenne the sayde Antony Burgh to delyver to the said John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and other goodes to the valour of xxti marke, and if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age thenne the goodes to be geven to the kirke aforesaid or as they thynke best for the welth of my saule. Item I bequeth to Antony Burgh all my ferme of Langton Hall. Item I bequeth to ilcone of my servantes their hoole yere wages. Item I bequeth to Thomas Wyngke one gowne cloth. Item I bequeth to Sir William Betson one gowne cloth. Item I will that Antony Burgh and Christofer Fitzrandolf be myne executours, they to dispose the residue of my goodes as thay thynk best for the heile of my saule. Thies being witnes, Sir Thomas Wynke, Sir William Beitson, Roberte Edwarde, Hewe Voluntyne, William Worth, and other moo.
>
> On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:05:37 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 9:43:09 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 4:27:14 PM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> > > > On Monday, March 21, 2022 at 6:39:11 PM UTC-4, wjhons...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > What is your source for these details from Christopher parson's will ?
> > > > I ordered a transcribed copy of the will from the Borthwick Institute for Archives, York. Have you never seen a copy before? I thought it must be published and available but couldn't find it anywhere. Thrilled to get it.
> > > It's not published.
> > > You can publish it in total if there is more, right here.
> > I'm glad to share it here. It was easy to obtain, and I assumed that everyone interested in detailed research of the FitzRandolph line already knew its exact contents. Is there something here that's not already widely known and might help answer a question or solve a longstanding problem? I'm wondering if maybe both Christopher FitzRandolph (d. 1570) and Antony Burgh, co-executors of the parson's will, might have been nephews of the parson's? No relationships are stated herein, but in other sources I've seen co-exec Christopher referred to as the testator's cousin or nephew.
> >
> > Borthwick Institute for Archives
> >
> >
> > Will of Christopher FitzRandolf of Kirkby in Ashfield (Notts.), proved July 1516
> >
> > Register of Thomas Wolsey (Abp. Reg. 27, folio 142v)
> >
> > [Marginated] Will of Sir Christofer Fitzrandolf, Vicar of the Church of Kirkby in Ashefeld
> >
> > In the name of God Amen. The firste daie of the moneth of June the yere of our lorde God ml D xvj, I Christofer Fitzrandolf, parson of the parish church of Kirkby in Ashfeld, with hole mynde, makes my will in this maner. First, I bequeth my saule to Almyghtie God, to his moder Saynte Mary, and to all the sayntes in heven, my body to be buried in myne owne church in the chansell afore the pryncipall ymage [of] Saynte Wilfride, and I bequeth to John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and oyer goodys as moch as commes to xxti marc. Item I will that Antony Burgh be keper of the sayde John and his goodes to the tyme he come to xxjti yere of his age and gif to hyme mete, drynke and cloth, with somme lernyng, thenne the sayde Antony Burgh to delyver to the said John Fitzrandolf x kye and a bull, plate and other goodes to the valour of xxti marke, and if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age thenne the goodes to be geven to the kirke aforesaid or as they thynke best for the welth of my saule. Item I bequeth to Antony Burgh all my ferme of Langton Hall. Item I bequeth to ilcone of my servantes their hoole yere wages. Item I bequeth to Thomas Wyngke one gowne cloth. Item I bequeth to Sir William Betson one gowne cloth. Item I will that Antony Burgh and Christofer Fitzrandolf be myne executours, they to dispose the residue of my goodes as thay thynk best for the heile of my saule. Thies being witnes, Sir Thomas Wynke, Sir William Beitson, Roberte Edwarde, Hewe Voluntyne, William Worth, and other moo.
>
> I suggest John's age should read xxiii the 23rd year of his life
Yes.
Also in the phrase "plate and oyer goodys" the two 'y's do not represent the same letter. The one in 'goodys' is a modern 'y', but the one in 'oyer' is the medieval letter 'thorn' (þ) - i.e. 'th', so 'other'. The spelling of 'moder' earlier in the document has an analogous etymology, with the 'd' there deriving from the medieval letter 'eth' (ð) - also 'th'.
> It's a bit odd that he would give him 10 cows and then ask for the 10 to be given back
> That seems a bit harsh.
> And I'm not sure I've ever seen such a bequest
taf
Girl57
Mar 22, 2022, 1:36:05 PM3/22/22
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Will Johnson
Mar 22, 2022, 4:23:06 PM3/22/22
to
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 10:12:12 AM UTC-7, taf wrote:
> That is not how I am reading it. He gives the 10 cows, bull and goods worth 22 marks to John Fitzrandolph, appoints Anthony Burke as John's guardian. Anthony, after serving as keeper of his ward's goods during John's minority, is to turn them over to John when the boy reaches the age of 23, or to the church if the boy dies before then ("if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age", where 'or' is a spelling variant of Middle English 'er', modern 'ere', ie. before). There is no 'taking away' here, just more specifics about how the bequest to a minor is to be handled.
>
> taf
You're right.
> That is not how I am reading it. He gives the 10 cows, bull and goods worth 22 marks to John Fitzrandolph, appoints Anthony Burke as John's guardian. Anthony, after serving as keeper of his ward's goods during John's minority, is to turn them over to John when the boy reaches the age of 23, or to the church if the boy dies before then ("if deth come to the said John or he come to the said age", where 'or' is a spelling variant of Middle English 'er', modern 'ere', ie. before). There is no 'taking away' here, just more specifics about how the bequest to a minor is to be handled.
>
> taf
I misread that.
taf
Mar 22, 2022, 6:50:37 PM3/22/22
to
On Tuesday, March 22, 2022 at 10:36:05 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> taf, than interpretation seems very reasonable (I am not an expert in reading the English of that time). With previously posted questions about FitzRandolphs, I have a more general one: Do you know of a book that focuses on the whats and hows of medieval English genealogy, or a medieval "encyclopedia" for beginners? And one that is affordable? Would help me if I could find one. Any recommendations welcome.
I am unaware of any book focusing on the practice of medieval English genealogy in enough detail to be useful.
> taf, than interpretation seems very reasonable (I am not an expert in reading the English of that time). With previously posted questions about FitzRandolphs, I have a more general one: Do you know of a book that focuses on the whats and hows of medieval English genealogy, or a medieval "encyclopedia" for beginners? And one that is affordable? Would help me if I could find one. Any recommendations welcome.
taf
Douglas Richardson
Mar 23, 2022, 4:18:37 PM3/23/22
to
The ancestry of the New World immigrant, Edward Fitz Randolph (died c.1684/5), of Piscataway, New Jersey, can be traced back to his great-grandfather, Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570). For your interest, I've copied below my current file account of Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570).
It is thought that Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570)i s descended from the earlier Fitz Randolph family, of Spennithorne, Yorkshire. However, to my knowledge, the exact link to the Spennithorne family has eluded discovery for many decades. I personally think the connection is highly likely, but lacking confirmation, this remains a theory at best.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
+ + + + + + + + + +
12. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., of Codnor (in Heanor), Derbyshire, and, in right of his wife, of Langton Hall (in Kirkby-in-Ashfield), Nottinghamshire. He married by contract dated 1514 JOAN (or JANE) LANGTON, daughter and co-heiress of Cuthbert Langton, Gent., of Langton Hall in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. She was born about 1499. They had five sons, Thomas, Gent. [of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire], John, James, Edward, and Christopher, and three daughters, Isabel, Margaret, and Margery. He was named one of the executors of the 1516 will of his uncle, Christopher Fitz Randolph, parson of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1518–29, he and Joan his wife sued Rowland Revell in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to the manor of Langton Hall and messuages and land in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Hucknall Torkard, Hucknall-under-Howthwaite, and Watnall-under-Choworth, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1521–2, Cuthbert Langton sued Christopher FitzRandolph and Randall Revel in the Court of Requests regarding lands in Durly Hucknall within the manor of Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1538–44, he and Joan his wife sued Robert Hyhege and Roger Mottram in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a close in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. In 1544–51, he and Joan his wife sued Roger Grenehalgh regarding land in Hucknall under Huthwaite (in Skegby), Nottinghamshire held of the king’s manor of Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. In 1550 he and Joan his wife sued George Vernon, Esq., in Chancery regarding one messuage, garden, and 60 acres of land in Birchehills, Derbyshire. In 1551–3 John Saurysbye sued William Awsebroke, Christopher Fitz Randolph and John his son regarding land in Kirkby[-in-Ashfield], Nottinghamshire leased by the said Christopher to complainant jointly with the said William. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., died shortly before 26 April 1570, on which date administration on his estate was granted to Thomas, his eldest son, and his widow, Jane. His widow, Jane, left a will dated 30 July 1573, proved 2 April 1574, requesting buried in the church of Kirkby –in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire near her mother.
References:
Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton’s Hist. of Nottinghamshire 2 (1790): 296. Mundy et al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 187 (1569 Vis.) (Fitz Randolph arms: Argent, a chief indented azure). List of Early Chancery Procs. 5 (PRO Lists and Indexes 38) (1912): 79; 7 (PRO Lists and Indexes 50) (1926): 43; 8 (PRO Lists and Indexes 51) (1929): 82; 9 (PRO Lists and Indexes 54) (1933): 48, 333. Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 493. NEHGR 97 (1943): 295–298; 99 (1945): 335–336. Chancery Decree Rolls (C.78) (List & Index Soc. 160) (1979): 54. Chancery Final Decrees, C78/6, no. 52, Year: 1550 (http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/C78/C78no6/IMG_0049.htm). National Archives, C 1/504/51; C 1/983/17-18; C 1/1221/26-28; C 1/1315/9-10; REQ 2/1/14 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
It is thought that Christopher Fitz Randolph (died 1570)i s descended from the earlier Fitz Randolph family, of Spennithorne, Yorkshire. However, to my knowledge, the exact link to the Spennithorne family has eluded discovery for many decades. I personally think the connection is highly likely, but lacking confirmation, this remains a theory at best.
Douglas Richardson, Historian and Genealogist
+ + + + + + + + + +
12. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., of Codnor (in Heanor), Derbyshire, and, in right of his wife, of Langton Hall (in Kirkby-in-Ashfield), Nottinghamshire. He married by contract dated 1514 JOAN (or JANE) LANGTON, daughter and co-heiress of Cuthbert Langton, Gent., of Langton Hall in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. She was born about 1499. They had five sons, Thomas, Gent. [of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire], John, James, Edward, and Christopher, and three daughters, Isabel, Margaret, and Margery. He was named one of the executors of the 1516 will of his uncle, Christopher Fitz Randolph, parson of Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1518–29, he and Joan his wife sued Rowland Revell in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to the manor of Langton Hall and messuages and land in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Hucknall Torkard, Hucknall-under-Howthwaite, and Watnall-under-Choworth, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1521–2, Cuthbert Langton sued Christopher FitzRandolph and Randall Revel in the Court of Requests regarding lands in Durly Hucknall within the manor of Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. In the period, 1538–44, he and Joan his wife sued Robert Hyhege and Roger Mottram in Chancery regarding the detention of deeds relating to a close in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire. In 1544–51, he and Joan his wife sued Roger Grenehalgh regarding land in Hucknall under Huthwaite (in Skegby), Nottinghamshire held of the king’s manor of Mansfield, Nottinghamshire. In 1550 he and Joan his wife sued George Vernon, Esq., in Chancery regarding one messuage, garden, and 60 acres of land in Birchehills, Derbyshire. In 1551–3 John Saurysbye sued William Awsebroke, Christopher Fitz Randolph and John his son regarding land in Kirkby[-in-Ashfield], Nottinghamshire leased by the said Christopher to complainant jointly with the said William. CHRISTOPHER FITZ RANDOLPH, Gent., died shortly before 26 April 1570, on which date administration on his estate was granted to Thomas, his eldest son, and his widow, Jane. His widow, Jane, left a will dated 30 July 1573, proved 2 April 1574, requesting buried in the church of Kirkby –in-Ashfield, Nottinghamshire near her mother.
References:
Thoroton & Throsby, Thoroton’s Hist. of Nottinghamshire 2 (1790): 296. Mundy et al., Vis. of Nottingham 1569 & 1614 (H.S.P. 4) (1871): 187 (1569 Vis.) (Fitz Randolph arms: Argent, a chief indented azure). List of Early Chancery Procs. 5 (PRO Lists and Indexes 38) (1912): 79; 7 (PRO Lists and Indexes 50) (1926): 43; 8 (PRO Lists and Indexes 51) (1929): 82; 9 (PRO Lists and Indexes 54) (1933): 48, 333. Desc. Cat. Ancient Deeds 6 (1915): 493. NEHGR 97 (1943): 295–298; 99 (1945): 335–336. Chancery Decree Rolls (C.78) (List & Index Soc. 160) (1979): 54. Chancery Final Decrees, C78/6, no. 52, Year: 1550 (http://aalt.law.uh.edu/AALT7/C78/C78no6/IMG_0049.htm). National Archives, C 1/504/51; C 1/983/17-18; C 1/1221/26-28; C 1/1315/9-10; REQ 2/1/14 (available at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk).
Girl57
Mar 23, 2022, 5:30:26 PM3/23/22
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Message has been deleted
Vance Mead
Mar 24, 2022, 3:30:49 AM3/24/22
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Christopher Randolph occurs twice in Common Pleas in 1548, once as Christopher Fitzrandell
and once as Christopher Fytherandulphe.
Christopher Fitzrandell, of Kirkeby in Ashefeld, gentleman
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1819.htm
Christopher Fytherandulphe, of Westwode, Kirkby in Ashfield, gentleman
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1607.htm
and once as Christopher Fytherandulphe.
Christopher Fitzrandell, of Kirkeby in Ashefeld, gentleman
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1819.htm
Christopher Fytherandulphe, of Westwode, Kirkby in Ashfield, gentleman
http://aalt.law.uh.edu/aalt1/E6/CP40no1135/bCP40no1135dorses/IMG_1607.htm
Girl57
Mar 24, 2022, 9:53:28 AM3/24/22
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If renowned professionals John Insley Coddington and Douglas Richardson and associated folks haven't proven a connection to a father of Chris, does that mean it's probably not doable...that records don't exist that might make a stronger case? How would I know what has already been done and looked at, if there is no comprehensive, foot-noted explanation of the evidence so far? How would I know if records not available to those researchers are now more accessible? How would I know how exhaustive the search so far has been?
Would love to hear from folks about these kinds of questions related to their own lines of interest. How do we know when to "never give up" and when to "be realistic" LOL?
taf
Mar 24, 2022, 10:42:18 AM3/24/22
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On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 6:53:28 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> If renowned professionals John Insley Coddington and Douglas Richardson and associated folks haven't proven a connection to a father of Chris, does that mean it's probably not doable...that records don't exist that might make a stronger case? How would I know what has already been done and looked at, if there is no comprehensive, foot-noted explanation of the evidence so far? How would I know if records not available to those researchers are now more accessible? How would I know how exhaustive the search so far has been?
>
Welcome to medieval genealogy?!? For that matter, all scholarship is plagued by this - one can only publish positive results, not thorough research finding nothing useful. As a result, a lot of time is wasted reinventing the wheel (or rather, reinventing the failure to produce a wheel).
> If renowned professionals John Insley Coddington and Douglas Richardson and associated folks haven't proven a connection to a father of Chris, does that mean it's probably not doable...that records don't exist that might make a stronger case? How would I know what has already been done and looked at, if there is no comprehensive, foot-noted explanation of the evidence so far? How would I know if records not available to those researchers are now more accessible? How would I know how exhaustive the search so far has been?
>
That said, two things can be safely assumed. First, that there are more records acessible now than when any past researcher did their study, even if relatively recently, and Second, that no researcher actually looked at every single relevant record available in their time, let alone available now.
The take-home is that you can never really know what has been consulted by those in the past, whether there will be a better answer in the records available now, though certainly there is a greater chance of finding something novel in addressing a question that has not been as thoroughly studied. However, it would nonetheless not be a complete waste of time to look into it anyhow - even it one finds nothing additional, that is how one learns about the process and sources of medieval genealogy, and the experience will be beneficial even if there is no better outcome.
taf
Girl57
Mar 24, 2022, 11:17:00 AM3/24/22
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Vance Mead
Mar 24, 2022, 11:38:55 AM3/24/22
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It is theoretically possible that records exist to prove Christopher's ancestry, though you might search for years and never find them. There are about 10 million images of records in AALT, of which about one million are 1450-1550. Of these about a tenth have been indexed.
taf
Mar 25, 2022, 6:31:03 AM3/25/22
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On Thursday, March 24, 2022 at 8:17:00 AM UTC-7, Girl57 wrote:
> Do researchers here ever ask for help reading documents written in Latin?
Yes. Often they receive that help, though not always in the context of the group.
> Do researchers here ever ask for help reading documents written in Latin?
>Also, is it common for folks trying to solve this kind of genealogical problem to research "out..." to extend study quite a ways into the lives and paper trails of numerous other families (for example, people named as witnesses in the subject's presumed relatives' wills)?
The farther away you get, the less likely you are to find something useful (and the harder it is to even identify research targets), so at some point the minimal chance of success becomes so minimal that one's time is better spent shifting to a different genealogical brick wall rather than ineffectually repeatedly banging your head against the same one from farther and farther away. I have had the best success on truly problem questions, not by such grinding away, but by stepping away and coming back to the question years later, when it could be approached with a fresh mind and fresh ideas.
taf
Girl57
Mar 26, 2022, 10:13:16 AM3/26/22
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Today, I'm having trouble understanding a reference in the 1540 will of Sir Godfrey Foljambe of Walton and Aldwarke (Derby)...the reference mentions my ancestor Christopher FitzRandolph and his wife and their son; the son married Sir G's daughter, Katherine. Will here, on FamilySearch.org, from p. 178 of "North Country Wills..."
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=&n=0&q=
The excerpt reads:
"...Also I will that my son James have...the order, rule, and governance and mariage of Cristofer Fitzrandolf and Jane his wyfe , for the mariage of Thomas Fitzrandolff their son and heire, or any other of their sones whiche shall fortune to be ther heire and maryed to Katherin Foliambe my doughter...or els to suche other gentilwoman as I shulde assigne."
Does this mean that since the testator may not be around, he is giving to his son and heir the right to oversee the execution of his sister's already-made marriage contract, which has not yet been fulfilled? That if Thomas dies, another FitzRandolph son could take his place, and that if Katherine dies, James could substitute someone else (perhaps a sister of Katherine's, or a cousin, etc.)?
Sir Godfrey looks to have been a person of some wealth and had served Kings Henry VII and VIII as "esquire of the body," and fought with Henry VIII in France.
Were marriage contracts like this one recorded by/with an ecclesiastical court? If I could find it, it might give me some useful info about ancestor Christopher FitzRandolph, his social standing, details about family, etc.?
Will Johnson
Mar 28, 2022, 1:32:04 PM3/28/22
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http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n758/mode/1up
It's possible this contract was broken ?
Will Johnson
Mar 29, 2022, 11:29:24 AM3/29/22
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There seems to be some oddity about this Catherine Foljambe
http://books.google.com/books?id=ofsUAAAAQAAJ&dq=Cuthbert%20Langton&lr&pg=PA187#v=onepage&q=Cuthbert%20Langton&f=true
Vis Nott, 1569 and 1614 by William Flower
http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n758/mode/1up
Linc. Ped. "second daughter" "born 1509"
FILE [no title] - ref. DD/FJ/4/7/6 - date: 21 June 1513
[from Scope and Content] Will of Godfrey Fulgeham, esq.,
"intending to go over the see with the kynges grace". Mentions wife
Katheryne, sons Jas. and Godfrey, ds. Bennette and Katheryne wife of
Thos. Nevyll, mother Bennet F., and brother Roger F.
It seems remarkable to me, that a girl supposedly born in 1509 would be described in 1513 (at age 3 or 4?) as the wife of Thomas Neville above.
That this 1513 document is that Godfrey whose mother was Benedicta Vernon is of no doubt. "Bennet" being a familiar form.
Thomas Neville of Holt, co Leic; Sheriff co Leic 1539 apparently is that one who died in 1569. However he is supposed to have married thirdly to Margaret Danvers *by* 1539
Clearly this reconstruction is impossible if Katherine is yet mentioned living in her fathers 1540 will
http://books.google.com/books?id=ofsUAAAAQAAJ&dq=Cuthbert%20Langton&lr&pg=PA187#v=onepage&q=Cuthbert%20Langton&f=true
Vis Nott, 1569 and 1614 by William Flower
http://www.archive.org/stream/lincolnshirepedi01madd#page/n758/mode/1up
Linc. Ped. "second daughter" "born 1509"
FILE [no title] - ref. DD/FJ/4/7/6 - date: 21 June 1513
[from Scope and Content] Will of Godfrey Fulgeham, esq.,
"intending to go over the see with the kynges grace". Mentions wife
Katheryne, sons Jas. and Godfrey, ds. Bennette and Katheryne wife of
Thos. Nevyll, mother Bennet F., and brother Roger F.
It seems remarkable to me, that a girl supposedly born in 1509 would be described in 1513 (at age 3 or 4?) as the wife of Thomas Neville above.
That this 1513 document is that Godfrey whose mother was Benedicta Vernon is of no doubt. "Bennet" being a familiar form.
Thomas Neville of Holt, co Leic; Sheriff co Leic 1539 apparently is that one who died in 1569. However he is supposed to have married thirdly to Margaret Danvers *by* 1539
Clearly this reconstruction is impossible if Katherine is yet mentioned living in her fathers 1540 will
Will Johnson
Mar 29, 2022, 11:44:24 AM3/29/22
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This is a very odd will
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=Foljambe
I note in particular this strange phrasing "Bennet my daughter begotten of Joane Mansfield"
This strikes very well an idea that this particular Bennet was illegitimate
and her next sister Katherine mentioned here, as well "begotten as abovesaid" (i.e also of Joane Mansfield)
So I would venture that we are dealing with two distinct Benedictas and Katherines
One pair legitimate (and much older) off Catherine Leeke
The other illegitimate off this Joan Mansfield
Godfrey did outlive his wife by 12 years
https://www.familysearch.org/library/books/viewer/617257/?offset=0#page=185&viewer=picture&o=search&n=0&q=Foljambe
I note in particular this strange phrasing "Bennet my daughter begotten of Joane Mansfield"
This strikes very well an idea that this particular Bennet was illegitimate
and her next sister Katherine mentioned here, as well "begotten as abovesaid" (i.e also of Joane Mansfield)
So I would venture that we are dealing with two distinct Benedictas and Katherines
One pair legitimate (and much older) off Catherine Leeke
The other illegitimate off this Joan Mansfield
Godfrey did outlive his wife by 12 years
Girl57
Mar 30, 2022, 8:47:52 AM3/30/22
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https://www.researchgate.net/publication/335914165_The_gentleman's_mistress_Illegitimate_relationships_and_children_1450-1640
Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will, or not necessarily? Maybe this mention appeared because the younger Katherine and Bennet were born after Sir Godfrey's wife's death?
I think the contract was kept, as my Thomas FitzRandolph mentions his deceased wife Katherine in his will, and this union appears in the Fitz-Randolfe pedigree in Visitation of Nottingham, 1569 and 1614.
Was Sir Godfrey's other Katherine married to a Neville? Was Joan Mansfield likely a gentlewoman, or not necessarily?
Will Johnson
Mar 30, 2022, 11:21:09 AM3/30/22
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I've not seen a case where the mother is named like this however
Chris Dickinson
Apr 11, 2022, 6:44:36 AM4/11/22
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"Was it unusual for testators to mention their illegitimate children in a will,"
Unusual, no.
Chris
Chris Dickinson
Apr 11, 2022, 8:53:51 AM4/11/22
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I realise that I've been sexist here!
I can give an example of a woman protecting her illegitimate child, though it's at the very end of the Medieval-Early Modern period that you specify. This was in the 1681 will of Elizabeth Bowman of Lingcroft in Lamplugh. Her husband had died in 1665, and I imagine as a wealthy and powerful widow she was comforted. Her illegitimate daughter Hannah Dixon al Bowman was provided for in her will, and eventually married reasonably well.
Going back three generations in her husband's family, Henry Bowman (died 1617) had married Dorothy Woodhall, niece of Edmund Grindal, future Archibishop of Canterbury.
Henry and Dorothy had a son William born before marriage in 1566, so illegitimate. Not only is that clear from BMD records, but Henry wrote in his will that:
"I give unto my son William that which is in his hand in full consideration of his child part & portion which they & any of them shall claim & challenge after my death"
William, as well as having other legacies, was apparitor of the local ecclesiastical court.
Chris
Girl57
Apr 11, 2022, 11:35:09 AM4/11/22
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I'd love to find the marriage contract for Thomas FitzRandolph and Katherine Foljambe, if one exists. Would a marriage contract have been a record of an ecclesiastical court? Were marriage contracts unlike records such as parish registers and probate...a different animal, which might or might not have been kept, and there's no telling where it might be, if it exists at all?
Chris Dickinson
Apr 11, 2022, 1:12:00 PM4/11/22
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The only contracts that I've seen have been from private records.
Chris
Cindy H.
Apr 11, 2022, 2:12:54 PM4/11/22
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On Monday, April 11, 2022 at 8:53:51 AM UTC-4, Chris Dickinson wrote:
Girl57
Apr 11, 2022, 7:17:49 PM4/11/22
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Now I'm remembering...I don't think Sir Godfrey actually left anything to Katherine, his illegitimate daughter who married Thomas FitzRandolph, in the will; I think she was mentioned only because he put her marriage arrangements in the charge of his son, her half-brother, James. Maybe, as Chris said above, he had provided well for her during his life.
Cindy H.
Apr 11, 2022, 10:01:09 PM4/11/22
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~Cindy
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