New France Connections to Medieval Nobility
Kevan Barton
Is there a list of known medieval connections to early New France (Quebec)
settlers? If so, would you be so kind as to share it, or let me know
where it is?
Cheers,
Kevan
MTaHT
any of these are important to you, I'll try to provide more information.
Jean Vincent d'Abbadie, baron de St.Castin
Charles de St.Etienne de Latour (gov.Acadie)
Jeanne de Roeux et Corcelles Motin (wife of Latour and Charles de Menou
d'Aulnay)
Louis d'Amours (de Louviere)
Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
Louis de Gannes, sgr. de Falaise
Michel Le Neuf
Marie Marg. Le Gardeur (wife of Jacques Le Neuf)
There are a couple of others that Denis Beauregard is working, presently.
The following have known ancestors, but decsendants are not known by me:
Charles de Menou d'Aulnay (gov.Acadie)
Charles de Biencourt (gov.Acadie)
le Sieur de Monts
A leading authority on this topic was the recently deceased Rene Jette of the
U.de Montreal. His works include:
Traite de Genealogie
Dictionnaire Genealogique des familles du Quebec des origines a 1730.
Many on topic articles.
Good luck,
Mike Talbot
PS: Also search the SGM archives, this topic has been discussed a couple of
times.
Florent Coache
I am happy that Mr. Mike Talbot answered for the Nouvelle-France part of
your question.
Now...for my part I could suggest (if you have not already done it) you have
a look at the book ¨de la Nouvelle-Angleterre a la Nouvelle-France¨ de
Marcel Fournier published by la Societe genealogique Canadienne Francaise
1992. In this book you will have a knowned list of captives (Deerfield, York
village, Saco, Corlear, Haverhill, etc...) taken to the Montreal area (for
the most part) and from which some of them remained and some got married to
French Canadian. So they are becoming part of our ancestors. What that will
do to answer your question is that some of them have knowned ancestry that
seems to have gatheways to nobility. In my own genealogy I can talk about
Jacques Roy married to Marguerite French (French-Catlin), Jacques Denoyon
married to Abiguail Stebbens (Stebbens-Alexander), Pierre De Lestage married
to Marie-Josette Sayward (Sayward-Rishworth). There are some gatheways for
those peoples on the Internet...I am still searching to see proof or
validity of those gatheways...
It could be looking very strange to look on the English side (for the French
Canadian descendants) to have more chances to get to Charlemagne or Edward I
or Edward III or John of Gaunt or Louis IX...
These are suggestions from an amateur...in genealogy
Au Revoir
Florent Coache
Napierville
Kevan Barton
Thank you for your kind msg. I'll find that article!
Cheers,
kevan
Diane Sheppard
Kevan,
In addition to the French Canadians already mentioned, the ancestry of
following gateway ancestors can be traced to the medieval period and
to royalty & nobility: 1. Catherine Baillon, wife of Jacques Miville.
See the book "Table d`ascendance de Catherine Baillon" by Rene Jette,
John P. DuLong, Roland-Yves Gagne, Gail F. Moreau & Joseph A. Dube,
published by SGCF (www.sgcf.com) 2. Marie Martin, wife of Christophe
Fevrier, see Qui était Jehan de Monteth, écuyer, seigneur
d'Argentenay, ancêtre des d'Ailleboust? (Roland-Yves Gagné), Memoires,
SGCF, vol. 51, #1 (#223)& Ascendance de Claude Aubelin, ancêtre des
d'Ailleboust (Roland-Yves Gagné), Memoires,SGCF, vol. 51, #3 (#225).
Articles about additional ancestors who can be traced to the medieval
period are likely to be found in one of the following periodicals
which specialize in French Canadians: Memoires (SGCF); The following
publications are in English: Michgan's Habitant Heritage (French
Canadian Heritage Society of Michigan; www.fchsm.habitant.org). They
published an English Translation of the ancestry of the LaNeuf
Brothers by John P. DuLong (10/02; 1/03 & 4/03); The American-Canadian
Genealogist (The American-Canadian Genealogy Society of New Hampshire;
www.acgs.org); "Je Me Souviens" (American-French Genealogical Society;
www.afgs.org).
The publications of these groups are indexed in PERSI. The journals
are available in many large public libraries as well as in areas with
a heavy concentration of French Canadians, such as the New England
States, Michigan & Wisconsin. Reprints are also available from the
Societies.
Since French Canadians are just as susceptible to faulty genealogy as
those discussed about American gateway ancestors, you should consult
one of the two main resources for tracing your French Canadian
ancestors prior to 1800: 1."Dictionnaire genealogique des families du
Quebec" by Rene Jette. This covers the period up to 1730. Although
written in French it is very easy to use because it uses standard
abbreviations: birth = n; baptism = b; marriage = m & burial = s. The
book also publishes the known ancestors of the immigrant ancestors at
the time of publication (1983). Biographical information can be
translated with the help of a pocket dictionary or AltaVista's
translation software (http://babelfish.altavista.com/translate.dyn).
2. PRDH (http://www.genealogy.umontreal.ca/en/main.htm), a very
reasonable subscription service which covers the period to 1799. The
minimum subscription costs $13.65 (at today's exchange rate) for 150
records or about 9.1 cents per record. The rate decreases
substantially with subscriptions for more records or hits.
In addition, the marriage records of many Quebec parishes and Ontario
parishes (with a heavy concentration of French Canadians) have been
published and/or filmed by the LDS. The microfilms are available from
FHC. Records are in French.
Hope this helps,
Diane Sheppard
John P. DuLong
> Is there a list of known medieval connections to early New France (Quebec)
> settlers? If so, would you be so kind as to share it, or let me know
> where it is?
The best list of nobles in New France would be found in:
Gadoury, Lorraine. La Noblesse de Nouvelle-France: families et alliances.
Ville La Salle, QC: Éditions Hurtubise HMH ltée., 1991.
This book is a historical demographic study of French nobles in Canada.
The extensive lists and bibliographies (pp. 161-208) she offers are the best
places to start to see if you have a French Canadian ancestor who was noble
and to check if there is anything published on the family. Be warned that
she does miss some nobles. For example, she does not list Catherine
Baillon.
You can learn more about these nobles by looking them up in the Dictionary
of Canadian Biography at http://www.biographi.ca/EN/index.html.
Keep in mind that many of these nobles were recently ennobled members of the
nobility of the robe. You only have to go back on or two generations to
find their bourgeois origins. Nevertheless, a few of them will have
pedigrees that extend back to the French nobility of the sword of the Middle
Ages.
As was pointed out in a previous posting, René Jetté documented the Baillon
and Le Neuf lines back to Charlemagne. I am confident other lines will
eventually be documented. Perhaps Denis Beauregard would be kind enough to
repost his list of possible royal gateways. (Denis, I tried searching your
website for
this list yesterday, but could not find it.)
Be forewarned that, as with other ethnic groups, there are many claims to
ancient noble families for colonial French immigrants that just do not hold
up when critically analyzed.
For resources you can use to trace French nobles, I suggest you visit my
"Bibliography for Tracing French Noble Families" web page at
http://habitant.org/tools/noblebib.htm. There is a whole section on the
nobility of New France.
I hope this information helps.
Regards,
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
USA
Tel.: (248) 541-2894
Web: http://habitant.org
Phil Moody
Canadian line. Would either be a possible line of descent from a French noble
house?
Cheers,
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "Diane Sheppard" <d...@srfpc.com>
To: <GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2003 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: New France Connections to Medieval Nobility
Denis Beauregard
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I can think of the following connections in New France (mostly Acadian). If
>any of these are important to you, I'll try to provide more information.
>
>Jean Vincent d'Abbadie, baron de St.Castin
ok
>Charles de St.Etienne de Latour (gov.Acadie)
ok
>Jeanne de Roeux et Corcelles Motin (wife of Latour and Charles de Menou
>d'Aulnay)
Jeanne de Motin, likely connected to high nobility but I have not
yet sorted all the photocopies I inherited from Rene Jette and there
are many about that ancestry.
>Louis d'Amours (de Louviere)
ok
>Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
no known descendants
>Louis de Gannes, sgr. de Falaise
to a king. I am not sure about descendants in Quebec but some
descendant contacted me long ago and his line is from Acadia
then Antillas and then New England
>Michel Le Neuf
ok
>Marie Marg. Le Gardeur (wife of Jacques Le Neuf)
ok
>There are a couple of others that Denis Beauregard is working, presently.
Yves Gagne is working on more lines. I am currently gathering a
database of Frenchs in North America before 1800 and I will add to
it the nobility lines from time to time. A lot of work to do just
to find those before 1750, my first target.
An old link with some lines:
http://www.francogene.com/dgo/dgo-qr.php#lettre_r
>The following have known ancestors, but decsendants are not known by me:
>
>Charles de Menou d'Aulnay (gov.Acadie)
>Charles de Biencourt (gov.Acadie)
>le Sieur de Monts
indeed, no known descendant. Biencourt is a cousin (by the Salazar)
of Latour.
>A leading authority on this topic was the recently deceased Rene Jette of the
>U.de Montreal. His works include:
>
>Traite de Genealogie
TG91 below
>Dictionnaire Genealogique des familles du Quebec des origines a 1730.
The DGFQ has a few long lines but none to a king. The editor believed
the dictionary was thick enough. But I published the lines known in
1998 in my GDO (out of stock, but the new dictionary I am working on
will include this kind of material).
To complete the list:
the Billy line was published TG91 585-591, but there is a problem
in the chronology (p. 591-592) and I think this line is wrong at
that point and another link from BILLY to VILLIERS needs to be proven.
128. Antoine de BILLY, seigneur de Mauregard, cm 21-02-1403 (PA 2 118)
129. Pernelle de VILLIERS, or Petronille, daughter of Jean de
Villiers, seigneur de Domont. I see no problem to say that this Jean
is a Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, but 1) Jean is a very common name and
2) the father of Pernelle is only called a knight while the Jean
of the link is Marechal, a more prestigious title.
Levreau de Langis in TG91
Mr Beaudin insists on his connection between the Rene Lippe family
and the princes of Lippe but he has failed thus far to provide a
usable proof.
There is a link from the Adhémar de Lantagnac and Rigaud de Vaudreuil
to a king, but not descendant here (I was contacted recently by a
French descending from a sibling of Adhemar)
I know a few more lines are close to be published by Yves but he
asked me to give no details.
Among the old stock looking possible but not proven yet: the d'Anglure
line, the Rennel line, the Rolland des Pelteaux line (where there is
a problem of usurpation), the Otis line (New England, discussed here
earlier in 2003), one Chevalier/Courcelle line (the illegitimate
son of a baron, the first name of the father is missing and 2 possible
fathers, each with over 10 generations in France), de Belleau, a
Giffard line to Jehanne de BEAUVOISIN (no idea if descendants), the
Ruette line, the Gueret, the Boileau, etc.
Unproven claims, likely closer to wishes than to truth: a Dubois line,
a Coutu line, a Lavergne line (but it is possible one of our Lavergne
has something because of one dit names).
Give me some millions and I am pretty sure we will find a lot more !
Denis
--
0 Denis Beauregard
/\/ www.francogene.com
|\ >>Adresse modifiée souvent/email changed frequently<<
/ | Société généalogique canadienne-française
oo oo Mon association a 60 ans en 2003 ! - www.sgcf.com
MTaHT
>>Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
>
>no known descendants
> Denis Beauregard
No effort has been made to gather all descendants. Here is one line of descent
to S.W.Louisiana. NOTE: Widen your window to view.
1. Gabriel 3 le sieur Villejoin Rousseau; , b. 1630?; , m.contr. 9 Nov 1653; ,
d. before 19 Sep 1699.
Marie Baudron. , b. in 1640?
Generation Two
2. Gabriel Louis ec.sgr.deVillejoin Rousseau; , b. 1683; , m.contr. 14 Apr
1708 Plaissance, Terre Neuve; , d. 22 Sep 1781.
Capitaine des vaisseaux du Roi.
Marie Josephe Bertrand. , b. in 1691. , d. circa 1747.
Generation Three
3. Gabriel ec.deVillejoin Rousseau; , b. 24 Apr 1709 Plaissance, Terre Neuve;
, m. 11 Jan 1729; , d. 6 Nov 1781 St.Jean d'Angely, Saintonge.
Brigadier des armees du Roi.
Anne Angelique deFalaise de Gannes. , b. on 2 Aug 1709 Port Royal, Acadie.
, d. in 1750 Port Toulouse, Acadie.
Generation Four
4. Michel ec.de Villejoin Rousseau; , b. 11 Oct 1734 Louisbourg, Isle Royale;
, m. 10 Sep 1771 Cayes de Fond, St.Domingue; , d. before 9 Feb 1780 buried,
St.Domingue.
Capitaine aide-major, lieutenant de Roi aux Cayes du Fond.
Anne Felicite Reynaud. , b. on 28 Jul 1754 Cayes de Fond, St.Domingue. ,
d. on 21 Nov 1789 Cayes de Fond, St.Domingue.
Generation Five
5. Gregoire Michel de Villejouin Rousseau; , b. 2 Jun 1777 Cayes du Fond,
St.Domingue; baptized 29 Jul 1777 les Cayes du Fond, St.Domingue; , m. 7 Jul
1812 St.Martinsville, LA; , d. 20 May 1847 N.O., LA.
1st sheriff of Lafayette Parish. He was also known as G. Villejouin.
Marguerite Jeannot. , b. in 1793 St.Landry P., LA. , d. after 1847.
Children of Gregoire Michel de Villejouin Rousseau and Marguerite Jeannot
were:
i. Prosper; , b. 1 May 1813 St.Martin P., LA; , m. circa 1837; ,
d. circa 1853.
This gateway to medieval nobility has many living descendants with origins in
S.W.LA.
Best wishes,
Mike Talbot
Diane Sheppard
> I am curious about *de Jarlais* and *de Montigny*, as these are families in my
> Canadian line. Would either be a possible line of descent from a French noble
> house?
>
> Cheers,
> Phil
Phil,
I'm not familiar with either family, but see John Dulong's post and
Denis Beauregard's.
Sorry, I couldn't help. Diane
Janko Pavsic
> I can think of the following connections in New France (mostly Acadian). If
> any of these are important to you, I'll try to provide more information.
>
> Jean Vincent d'Abbadie, baron de St.Castin
>
> Charles de St.Etienne de Latour (gov.Acadie)
>
> Jeanne de Roeux et Corcelles Motin (wife of Latour and Charles de Menou
> d'Aulnay)
>
> Louis d'Amours (de Louviere)
>
> Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
>
> Louis de Gannes, sgr. de Falaise
>
> Michel Le Neuf
To that list, I ca add...
Anne-Antoinette de Liercourt (16 ancestors XVth)
Marie-Anne d'Anglure
Marie-Charlotte de Coppequesne (from Abbeville) 40 ancestors XVth
Catherine de Corday de Repentigny (Le Gardeur line) 65 ancestors XIIIth
Élisabeth de La Guéripière
Alexandre de Lavaux and Louise de Reynel (18 ancestors XVIth)
François de Chavigny and Éléonore de Grandmaison
Catherine de Valperga (italian nobility, 18 ancestors XVth)
Antoinette de Longval (7 ancestors XVIth)
and 30 others...
Janko Pavsic
Montréal, Canada
janko...@hotmail.com
Kevan Barton
Wooh, great material! I started working my wife's lines a few month with
much success. I've been using PRDH, some microfilms (to bridge the 19th
century), and other compiled sources. Many of the lines go back to the
early 17th century, and so, the origination of my question. Very
interesting, and thanks so much for the data.
Cheers,
Kevan
Roger LeBlanc
> To that list, I ca add...
>
> Anne-Antoinette de Liercourt (16 ancestors XVth)
> Marie-Anne d'Anglure
<snip>
> Antoinette de Longval (7 ancestors XVIth)
Janko,
I'm descended from these three ladies, but aside from the parents of the first, their ancestry is
not known to me. Where might one be able to learn more about these?
Roger LeBlanc
John P. DuLong
> I am curious about *de Jarlais* and *de Montigny*, as these are families
in my
> Canadian line. Would either be a possible line of descent from a French
noble
> house?
The surnames de Jarlais and de Montigny do not appear in Gadoury's list of
nobles,
but keep in mind that her list is not all inclusive. The use of "de" does
NOT indicate
nobility. However, if you see in original records that your ancestors are
referred
to as an écuyer (esquire), then you have a very good clue that they were
perhaps
nobles.
JP
John P. DuLong, Ph.D.
Acadian and French Canadian Genealogy
959 Oxford Road
Berkley, MI 48072-2011
USA
(248) 541-2894
http://habitant.org
Jean-Philippe Gérard
> ...
> To complete the list:
>
> the Billy line was published TG91 585-591, but there is a problem
> in the chronology (p. 591-592) and I think this line is wrong at
> that point and another link from BILLY to VILLIERS needs to be proven.
>
> 128. Antoine de BILLY, seigneur de Mauregard, cm 21-02-1403 (PA 2 118)
> 129. Pernelle de VILLIERS, or Petronille, daughter of Jean de
> Villiers, seigneur de Domont. I see no problem to say that this Jean
> is a Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, but 1) Jean is a very common name and
> 2) the father of Pernelle is only called a knight while the Jean
> of the link is Marechal, a more prestigious title.
I found this in reference T 37/17 at the Archives nationales in Paris :
1414, 20 mai. Partage entre damoiselle Perennelle de Villiers épouse
d'Antoine de Villy, et damoiselle Marguerite de Villiers épouse
d'Estienne de Villiers, lesd. Perennelle et Marguerite de Villiers sœurs
filles et héritières de messire Jean de Villiers et de Nicole d'Yvort,
des successions de leurs dits père et mère et d'Adam de Villiers leur
frère.
it is an act of division between the two daughters of Jean de Villiers
and Nicole d'Yvort. Jean de Villiers, note Jean de Villiers de
something-else, please. The families de Villiers are very complicated.
Don't add confusion. You have several families 'de Villiers' : de
Villiers de L'Isle-Adam, the most kown, may be, de Villiers le Bel, and
son on.
The father and mother of this Jean de Villiers seems to be another Jean
de Villiers and Marie de Mitry.
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
> Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:57
> To: GEN-MED...@rootsweb.com
> Subject: Re: New France Connections to Medieval Nobility
>
>
Monsieur Gérard
Please, explain the "note Jean de Villiers de something-else, please".
The reference you quote contains no "de something-else". What are you
trying to say here, that the reference should have further clarified
this?
What I can infer from this reference is:
that Jean de Villiers and is wife Nicole d'Yvort had three children,
Adam, Perennelle and Marguerite.
That Adam died without offspring
Perennelle married Antoine de Villy
Marguerite married Estienne de Villiers, hopefully not too close a
cousin
And that their was an official division between Perennelle and
Marguerite of the properties and holdings of their father, mother and
brother.
Is this the complete reference or does it further identify the
properties to be divided and who got what?
Thanks for the information, but again please explain your comments.
Richard C. Browning, Jr.
Grand Prairie, TX> -----Original Message-----
Denis Beauregard
soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>>>Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
>>
>>no known descendants
><snip>
>> Denis Beauregard
>
>No effort has been made to gather all descendants. Here is one line of descent
>to S.W.Louisiana. NOTE: Widen your window to view.
Indeed. This is why I tried a few times to get a list of known
Louisianese with descendants with limited success yet.
To this ROUSSEAU de VILLEJOIN line, I can like add the REGGIO if I
ever find the connection to the Italian family from:
REGGIO (de), François Marie (Charles & .. de CANAPAN)
* m vers 1751 Arkansas ? (990404, AR)
FLEURIAU, Hélène (François & Pélagie de MORIÈRES [118606])
(I presume they are the parents or grand-parents of Helene-Judith
below)
TOUTANT dit BEAUREGARD, Jacques-Élie (Louis & Victoire DUCROS)
* m 1808-08-29 Nouvelle-Orléans (St.Louis (cath.))
REGGIO (de), Hélène-Judith (Louis-Charles-Emmanuel DE-REGGIO & Judith
OLIVIER DE-VEZIN)
1) Alfred, m Nouvelle-Orléans (St.Louis (cath.)), Orleans
1850-04-24 Elmina DeBLANC de SAINT-DENIS
2) Angèle, m (possible) 1857-04-29 Mortimer BELLIE
3) Augustin, m Nouvelle-Orléans (St.Louis (cath.)), Orleans
1834-03-19 Adelaide REGGIO
4) Elodie, m Nouvelle-Orléans, Orleans 1843-01-30 Richard
PROCTOR
5) Françoise-Judith, m (possible) 1830-1840 Émile LeGENDRE
6) Judith Heleine Toutant, m (possible) vers 1847 James Robert
FAITH
7) Pierre-Gustave, m New Galvez (St.Bernard), St.Bernard
1841-09-18 Laure VILLERE, m St.James, St.James !1860 Caroline
DESLONDES
8) Pierre-Nicolas-Armand, m Nouvelle-Orléans, Orleans !1868
Alice CHAPMAN
(and there are descendants of that family)
Also, the COULON family, another with a long medieval line, has
descendant in Louisiana, but no connection to reoyalty found so far.
In Quebec, royal connection to one BELLEAU family with no descendant
(this one married to a descendant of Charlemagne) while the sibling of
the same has descendants, a few geneations back in France and when
Janko will publish it, a few more generations throught the Valpergue.
Another line with the RUETTE d'AUTEUIL (descendants include a former
Quebec premier). One line with DUPONT de CHAMBON but I don't know
descendants. The CHARTIER de LOTBINIÈRE has also some more
generations, my own BEAUREGARD then JARRET untel 1471 is likely the
second longer continuous male line in Quebec (after the BILLY).
One more long line with the CHAUBERT (descendants), the PASQUIER de
FRANCLIEU, the D'AILLEBOUST to the STEWARD from Scotland, etc. etc.
Denis Beauregard
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>mt...@aol.com (MTaHT) wrote in message news:<20031212105029...@mb-m13.aol.com>...
>> I can think of the following connections in New France (mostly Acadian). If
>> any of these are important to you, I'll try to provide more information.
>>
>> Jean Vincent d'Abbadie, baron de St.Castin
>>
>> Charles de St.Etienne de Latour (gov.Acadie)
>>
>> Jeanne de Roeux et Corcelles Motin (wife of Latour and Charles de Menou
>> d'Aulnay)
>>
>> Louis d'Amours (de Louviere)
>>
>> Gabriel Rousseau de Villejoin
>>
>> Louis de Gannes, sgr. de Falaise
>>
>> Michel Le Neuf
>
>To that list, I ca add...
>
>Anne-Antoinette de Liercourt (16 ancestors XVth)
nothing published
>Marie-Anne d'Anglure
>Marie-Charlotte de Coppequesne (from Abbeville) 40 ancestors XVth
>Catherine de Corday de Repentigny (Le Gardeur line) 65 ancestors XIIIth
Robert Chartrand made a thick book about the descendants. I don't
remember if the royal connection is only by the Leneuf.
>Élisabeth de La Guéripière
>Alexandre de Lavaux and Louise de Reynel (18 ancestors XVIth)
nothing published (and if you didn't check the Lorraine records,
I don't think you can connect this one)
>François de Chavigny and Éléonore de Grandmaison
>Catherine de Valperga (italian nobility, 18 ancestors XVth)
nothing published
>Antoinette de Longval (7 ancestors XVIth)
nothing published. Remember the speculative line I published
on this one was later found to be wrong.
>
>and 30 others...
When I will have completed the Acadian part of my database, I think
I will make a list of what has been published thus far with how
many ancestors, which are proven to Charlemagne from original records,
which are proven from second sources, which can be good leads, etc.
Denis Beauregard
<dul...@habitant.org> écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>The surnames de Jarlais and de Montigny do not appear in Gadoury's list of
>nobles,
>but keep in mind that her list is not all inclusive. The use of "de" does
>NOT indicate
>nobility. However, if you see in original records that your ancestors are
The list of Lorraine Gadoury is limited to "official" nobles and
bourgeois, i.e. the local political class and the richest merchants.
Denis Beauregard
Moody") écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I am curious about *de Jarlais* and *de Montigny*, as these are families in my
>Canadian line. Would either be a possible line of descent from a French noble
>house?
Which DE MONTIGNY ? I found one long line of a DE MONTIGNY in a web
site, but it has no source and I feel the author of the site didn't
made the search himself. They are not the MINET dit MONTIGNY nor the
PAPINEAU de MONTIGNY, but a later line.
As for the GERLAISE or JARLAIS, this doesn't look like a noble line.
Ray Perrault
Beauregard <n...@spam.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> Also, the COULON family, another with a long medieval line, has
> descendant in Louisiana, but no connection to reoyalty found so far.
>
I presume you are referring here to the ancestors of Nicolas Coulon de
Villiers, who m. Angélique Jarret de Verchères? Pierre-G Roy gives the
line
Nicolas Coulon
Nicolas Coulon m 1609 M. Leber/Lebel
Guillaume COulon m 1650 ELizabeth Le Couturier
Raoul Guillaume Coulon m 1677 Louise de la Fosse
Nicolas Antoine Coulon de Villiers, m. 1705 Angélique Jarret de
Verchères
Is anything further known about it?
Raymond Perrault
Denis Beauregard
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>In article <8e9qtvs2v6he980rq...@4ax.com>, Denis
>Beauregard <n...@spam.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Also, the COULON family, another with a long medieval line, has
>> descendant in Louisiana, but no connection to reoyalty found so far.
>>
>I presume you are referring here to the ancestors of Nicolas Coulon de
>Villiers, who m. Angélique Jarret de Verchères? Pierre-G Roy gives the
>line
>
>Nicolas Coulon
>Nicolas Coulon m 1609 M. Leber/Lebel
>Guillaume COulon m 1650 ELizabeth Le Couturier
>Raoul Guillaume Coulon m 1677 Louise de la Fosse
>Nicolas Antoine Coulon de Villiers, m. 1705 Angélique Jarret de
>Verchères
A cut and paste from my GDO:
COULON, sieur de VILLIERS, Nicolas-Antoine
* m 1705
JARRET de VERCHÈRES, Angélique
[Ascendance de Nicolas-Antoine Coulon:
2. Raoul-Guillaume COULON, sieur de Villiers, m 04-07-1677
Beaumont-sur-Oise (Val d'Oise: 95052) (PC)
3. Louise de la FOSSE
4. Guillaume COULON, écuyer, sieur de Villiers et Chanteraine,
conseiller du roi, procureur du roi au bailliage et siège seigneurial
de Mantes, maintenu dans sa noblesse le 08-06-1669, b 30-10-1616
Ste-Croix v. Notre-Dame de Mantes-la-Jolie (Yvelines: 78361), m ct
21-05-1650 notaire Besançon (Mantes) (PC)
5. Élisabeth Le COUTURIER
6. Antoine de la FOSSE, seigneur de Valpendant (PC)
7. Louise LEGRAND
8. Nicolas COULON, avocat en parlement (PC)
9. Marie LEBER ou LEBEL
10. Philippe Le COUTURIER, conseiller secrétaire du roi, maison et
couronne de France et de ses finances (PC)
11. Anne LAUBOIS
16. Nicolas COULON, seigneur de Chahaguy et Boutainville, conseille du
roi, prévôt, juge ordinaire civil et criminel de la ville de Mantes,
anobli dès 1590 (PC)
18. Simon LEBER (PC) ou LEBEL (DLC), sieur de Malassis (PC) (DLC p.
841: trésorier provincial de l'extraordinaire des guerres en Bretagne)
19. Rachelle MIDORGE
38. Jean MIDORGE, seigneur de Fretay en Brie (DLC p. 841)
39. Marie Le BOSSU
76. Galois MIDORGE, natif du Dauphiné, commissaire des guerres, d
16-08-1538, s St-Paul v. Paris (Paris: 75004) (DLC p. 841)
77. Catherine ASSELIN
78. Pierre Le BOSSU, conseiller au parlement de Paris (DLC p. 841)
79. Jeanne OLIVIER
158. Jean OLIVIER le Jeune, seigneur de Mancy et de Morangis,
secrétaire du roi (PA 6 483)
159. Perette LOPON, dame de Mancy et de Morangis
316. Jacques OLIVIER, seigneur de Leuville et du Coudray, près
Chartres, natif du Bourgneuf près La Rochelle, d entre 1481 et 1488
(PA 6 483)
317. Jeannette de NOVIANT
634. Étienne de NOVIANT, procureur du roi en la chambre des comptes de
Paris, vivant le 05-05-1488 (PA 6 483)]
Sources: (PC) Petites choses de notre histoire, par P.G. Roy, vol. 6,
p. 248-249, DLC is De La Chesnaye-Desbois (not reliable) and PA is
Père Anselme. This is an extract from my GDO (1998).
New material welcome !
Denis Beauregard
Gérard) écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
Pourquoi un autre ?
Jetté citant Oscar de Poli, 1894, Inventaire des titres de la maison
de Billy:
"Pernelle de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, fille de Jehan, chevalier,
seigneur de Domont.", Jetté présume: d'après le texte du contrat de
mariage que Poli aurait lu. Mais disons que c'est Villiers tout
court.
Aumont est une seigneurie des Villiers-le-Bel dont un descendant,
Pierre, fait l'acquisition de L'Isle-Adam en 1364.
Le contrat de mariage datant de 1403 (PA) ou 1404 (Poli), si Pernelle
est appelée de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, le lien de parenté n'est pas
très éloigné.
D'après PA, on aurait:
1 Jean x Marie de l'Isle
1.1a Adam x Alix de Cressy
1.1a.1a Pierre x Jeanne de Beauvais
1.1a.1b Pierre xx Marguerite de Vendome,
acquiert la seigneurie de l'Isle-Adam en 1364
1.1a.1b.1 Pierre x Jeanne de Chatillon **** lien selon TG91
1.1b Adam xx Marie de Mery (ou Jean x Marie de Mitry ?)
1.1b.1 Peronnelle de Villiers, x Charles de Montmorency, xx
Guillaume d'Harcourt
(aurions-nous ?)
1.1b.2 Jean x Nicole d'Yvort, parents de Pernelle
On perd la lignée vers la royauté puisqu'elle passe par Marguerite de
Vendôme.
Jean-Philippe Gérard
> Please, explain the "note Jean de Villiers de something-else, please".
> The reference you quote contains no "de something-else". What are you
> trying to say here, that the reference should have further clarified
> this?
I'm sorry. It was a kind of stupid joke. I was trying to say, with my
poor american, that there were many Villiers families.
In France, in the Ancien Régime, you were *seigneur* of a place, which
today does not correspond inevitably to a city. Villiers is a very
common name, a very common toponym. So you can have many families that
have took the name of *de Villiers* without relantionship between them.
To differentiate the various branches from the same relationship, the
families could associate another ground name to their name, already
resulting from a first ground.
So from the *de Villiers*, you can have *de Villiers le Sec*, *de
Villiers le Bel*, *de Villiers de L'Isle-Adam* and may be other.
> What I can infer from this reference is:
> that Jean de Villiers and is wife Nicole d'Yvort had three children,
> Adam, Perennelle and Marguerite.
> That Adam died without offspring
> Perennelle married Antoine de Villy
> Marguerite married Estienne de Villiers, hopefully not too close a
> cousin
> And that their was an official division between Perennelle and
> Marguerite of the properties and holdings of their father, mother and
> brother.
Yes, it's OK, but please read Antoine de Billy, and not Antoine de
Villy, I have done a typing error.
> Is this the complete reference or does it further identify the
> properties to be divided and who got what?
I'm not sure to understand what yoy want to say, because of my really
poor american. You can to know if in this act of division we can found
the properties given to each of the two sisters. ?
I did not make a complete statement. Just a very summary analysis of an
act consulted with the Archives nationales in Paris for antoher
research.
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
Jean-Philippe Gérard
Pourquoi : pourquoi un autre ?
Ce que j'ai voulu écrire, c'est que le père de Jean de Villiers (époux
de Nicole d'Yvort) s'appelle lui aussi Jean de Villiers, marié à Marie
de Mitry. C'est une formulation assez courante lorsque le fils et le
père ont le même prénom que d'écrire : Jean de Villiers, fills d'autre
Jean de Villiers.
> Jetté citant Oscar de Poli, 1894, Inventaire des titres de la maison
> de Billy:
> "Pernelle de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, fille de Jehan, chevalier,
> seigneur de Domont.", Jetté présume: d'après le texte du contrat de
> mariage que Poli aurait lu. Mais disons que c'est Villiers tout
> court.
Vraiment, il *présume* ? D'après un texte que *peut-être* Oscar de Poli
*aurait* lu ?
Cela fait beaucoup de supposition, beaucoup trop.
> Aumont est une seigneurie des Villiers-le-Bel dont un descendant,
> Pierre, fait l'acquisition de L'Isle-Adam en 1364.
Pas Aumont, mais Domont, ville du Val-d'Oise (95).
> Le contrat de mariage datant de 1403 (PA) ou 1404 (Poli), si Pernelle
> est appelée de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, le lien de parenté n'est pas
> très éloigné.
*Si* est Pernelle est appelée [...]. Tout est dans ce *si*.
Néanmoins, Pernelle de Villiers est très certainement de la même
famille, car les armes sont les mêmes. Mais cette famille de Villiers
comportaient plusieurs branches, et celle qui a acquit L'Isle-Adam a pu
ajouter ce nom pour se distinguer, se démarquer des autres, à une époque
où les noms n'étaient pas fixés mais où l'on commençait à ressentir le
besoin de s'identifier. Toutefois, cette acquisition n'autorise pas à
ajouter "de L'Isle-Adam" à tous les "de Villiers" postérieurs à 1364.
> D'après PA, on aurait:
>
> 1 Jean x Marie de l'Isle
> 1.1a Adam x Alix de Cressy
> 1.1a.1a Pierre x Jeanne de Beauvais
> 1.1a.1b Pierre xx Marguerite de Vendome,
> acquiert la seigneurie de l'Isle-Adam en 1364
> 1.1a.1b.1 Pierre x Jeanne de Chatillon **** lien selon TG91
> 1.1b Adam xx Marie de Mery (ou Jean x Marie de Mitry ?)
> 1.1b.1 Peronnelle de Villiers, x Charles de Montmorency, xx
> Guillaume d'Harcourt
> (aurions-nous ?)
> 1.1b.2 Jean x Nicole d'Yvort, parents de Pernelle
Le Père Anselme et ses continuateurs donnent-ils des preuves ? La
filiation que j'indique s'appuie sur des actes conservés aux Archives
nationales, série T (séquestre révolutionnaire) et qui appartenaient
jusqu'à la Révolution aux seigneurs de Domont. Donc le Père Anselme n'y
avait pas accès, et a fait une compilation de ce qu'il pouvait
connaître.
Dans ce genre de généalogies médiévales, il convient de faire preuve de
la plus grande prudence. Si vous avez accès à la revue "Héraldique et
généalogie", je ne peux que vous conseiller de lire les réponses signées
par M. Edouard de Saint-Phalle, qui tord le cou à de nombreuses
généalogies médiévales, simplement en usant d'études récentes, et en
abordant les problèmes posément, sans faire la course aux générations.
--
Jean-Philippe Gérard
Denis Beauregard
Gérard) écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Denis Beauregard <n...@spam.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Le Sun, 14 Dec 2003 17:56:59 +0100, jp...@wanadoo.fr (Jean-Philippe
>> Gérard) écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>> >Denis Beauregard <n...@spam.com.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >The father and mother of this Jean de Villiers seems to be another Jean
>> >de Villiers and Marie de Mitry.
>>
>> Pourquoi un autre ?
>
>Pourquoi : pourquoi un autre ?
>
>Ce que j'ai voulu écrire, c'est que le père de Jean de Villiers (époux
>de Nicole d'Yvort) s'appelle lui aussi Jean de Villiers, marié à Marie
>de Mitry. C'est une formulation assez courante lorsque le fils et le
>père ont le même prénom que d'écrire : Jean de Villiers, fills d'autre
>Jean de Villiers.
Effectivement, la traduction ne permet pas de bien rendre
l'expression.
>> Jetté citant Oscar de Poli, 1894, Inventaire des titres de la maison
>> de Billy:
>
>> "Pernelle de Villiers de l'Isle-Adam, fille de Jehan, chevalier,
>> seigneur de Domont.", Jetté présume: d'après le texte du contrat de
>> mariage que Poli aurait lu. Mais disons que c'est Villiers tout
>> court.
>
>Vraiment, il *présume* ? D'après un texte que *peut-être* Oscar de Poli
>*aurait* lu ?
>Cela fait beaucoup de supposition, beaucoup trop.
Je ne fais que reprendre son explication. Jetté s'est d'ailleurs
fait piéger à quelques reprises avec ses sources secondaires. C'est
pourquoi ceux de son "école" tiennent tant à vérifier les sources.
Je ne fais, pour le moment, que tenter de compiler tout ce qui s'est
écrit sur les différentes lignées, en donnant priorité à celles qui
ont des descendants sur mon continent (puisque les Français ont un
meilleur accès aux sources) et en vérifiant ce que ma méthode de
saisie m'oblige à vérifier (chaque couple doit avoir une date de
mariage ou du moins d'union).
>> Aumont est une seigneurie des Villiers-le-Bel dont un descendant,
>> Pierre, fait l'acquisition de L'Isle-Adam en 1364.
>
>Pas Aumont, mais Domont, ville du Val-d'Oise (95).
J'avais pensé à D'Aumont mais s'il y a 2 seigneuries identifiées,
je ne peux que m'incliner.
Nous avons la revue à la SGCF (Montréal) et en plus, la Bib. Gén. a
un index des articles, quand il y a 3 générations toutefois. Mais
j'ai bien l'impression que quand j'aurai fini de tout intégrer ce que
j'ai, il me faudra relire au complet chaque numéro.
Une partie de mes informations est sous forme de texte et j'ai
1,5 m de documents sur papier, dont les photocopies que Jetté m'avait
données il y a quelques années. En plus, il y a les 10 000 pages de
recherches faites en France par Godbout en 1925-1935. Et dans tout
cela, il y a de temps en temps une lignée qui émerge, mais Godbout
(décédé en 1960), puis Jetté (décédé en 2003) ont publié ce qu'ils
avaient déjà trouvé et qui aboutissait au loin. Gagné publie au fur
et à mesure que ses dossiers sont complétés, ainsi que Dulong il me
semble. Pavsic semble avoir du matériel intéressant encore inédit.
Du côté de la Nouvelle-Angleterre, Roger Lawrence, que j'ai vu en
septembre dernier, semble aussi avoir du matériel inédit. Et de mon
côté, j'ai voulu attendre que le filon des trouvailles faites dans le
cadre du Fichier Origine s'atténue avant de publier une nouvelle
compilation de ce que tout le monde a trouvé.
Nicole Dubois
> Folks,
> Is there a list of known medieval connections to early New France (Quebec)
> settlers? If so, would you be so kind as to share it, or let me know
> where it is?
>
> Cheers,
> Kevan
I have 2 leads in my family. My grandmother on my father's side is a Courville dite De Billy. I have the generations back into france with them. I was always told there was a connection there to a king. Which one, I'm not too sure. Antoine De Billy, s/o Jean De Billy and Jeanne De Puiseux, married on Feb. 21, 1402/03 to Pernelle De Villiers, d/o Jean de Villiers and Jeanne de Vallengoujart. Pernelle was supposed to be the cousin to a king... I have been trying to find the cousin link, but still do not know where it is exactly.
On the other hand, my great grandmother on my mother's side was a Beauchamp who married into the Belanger line. I have gone back down the Beauchamp line to 1560, and from there I hit a wall. So I tried coming back from the first Beauchamp in France. One went to fight in England with William duke of Normandy. He and his family became very wealthy. The daughter of Thomas Beauchamp, the then Earl of Warwick, married 3 times her name was Marguerite Beauchamp. She had children with her first husband, and a daughter with the last one. The daughter was Margaret Beaufort, her father was the earl of Beaufort. She became the mother of King Henry VII and the grandmother to Henry VIII. I am looking to see who came back to france to form my great grandmother's line, but I have been hitting walls for a long time. So, now you know of at least 2 families that came west. I also have Abraham Martin's line since his daughter married a "Ratie"(Rate) and a son of hers Pierre Rate had a daughter who married into my mother's line the Paradis. I have the Paradis line, back into France in 1575, and the Martin line to about 1451 in Germany with Viet Martin.
My father's line is the "Dubois" line. I go back to 1645 in St.Hilaire-Foissac in what is now Bas-Limousin.
So, if you wish you can contact me at... madla...@gmail.com. I will help all I can. Good luck with your searches. Nicole Dubois
Olivier
Marie de Dreux, dame d'Elincourt 1268-1339
|
Isabeau de Châtillon +1360 &1311
Guillaume, seigneur de Coucy +1335
|
Enguerrand, seigneur de Coucy +1346 &ca 1338
Katharina von Habsburg 1320-1349
|
Jeanne de Coucy 1340/1347 &1360/1370
Charles de Châtillon, seigneur de Souvain 1338-1401
|
Jeanne de Châtillon, dame de L'Isle-Adam 1370-1457 &1383
Pierre de Villiers, seigneur de L'Isle-Adam 1365-1400
|
Jean de Villiers, seigneur de L'Isle-Adam 1384-1437 &
Jeanne de Vallengoujart +1446
|
Pernelle de Villiers de L'Isle-Adam, dame d'Yvors
Guy de Châtillon, comte de Saint-Pol 1254/-1317 &1292
Marie de Dreux, dame d'Elincourt 1268-1339
|
Mahaut de Châtillon 1293-1358 &1308
Charles Ier, comte de Valois 1270-1325
|
Isabelle de Valois 1313-1383 &1336
Pierre Ier, duc de Bourbon 1311-1356
|
Jeanne de Bourbon 1337-1378 &1350
Charles V, roi de France 1337-1380
|
Charles VI, roi de France 1368-1422
JPD
Denis Beauregard
<madla...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Thursday, December 11, 2003 at 7:48:51 PM UTC-7, Kevan Barton wrote:
>> Folks,
>>
>> Is there a list of known medieval connections to early New France (Quebec)
>> settlers? If so, would you be so kind as to share it, or let me know
>> where it is?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Kevan
>
>Hi Kevan,
>I have 2 leads in my family. My grandmother on my father's side is a Courville dite De Billy. I have the generations back into france with them. I was always told there was a connection there to a king. Which one, I'm not too sure. Antoine De Billy, s/o Jean De Billy and Jeanne De Puiseux, married on Feb. 21, 1402/03 to Pernelle
De Villiers, d/o Jean de Villiers and Jeanne de Vallengoujart. Pernelle was supposed to be the cousin to a king... I have been trying to find the cousin link, but still do not know where it is exactly.
his "parents" is bogus, hypothetical, wrong, fiction, unproven (chose
your word).
This for parents of Jean François de Billy
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec-genealogy/015/015975.php
>On the other hand, my great grandmother on my mother's side was a Beauchamp who married into the Belanger line. I have gone back down the Beauchamp line to 1560, and from there I hit a wall. So I tried coming back from the first Beauchamp in France. One went to fight in England with William duke of Normandy. He and his family
became very wealthy. The daughter of Thomas Beauchamp, the then Earl of Warwick, married 3 times her name was Marguerite Beauchamp. She had children with her first husband, and a daughter with the last one. The daughter was Margaret Beaufort, her father was the earl of Beaufort. She became the mother of King Henry VII and the
grandmother to Henry VIII. I am looking to see who came back to france to form my great grandmother's line, but I have been hitting walls for a long time. So, now you know of at least 2 families that came west. I also have Abraham Martin's line since his daughter married a "Ratie"(Rate) and a son of hers Pierre Rate had a daughter
who
first in New France. Thus far, no Beauchamp is even close to nobility.
The parents of our Abraham Martin are unknown.
>married into my mother's line the Paradis. I have the Paradis line, back into France in 1575, and the Martin line to about 1451 in Germany with Viet Martin.
>My father's line is the "Dubois" line. I go back to 1645 in St.Hilaire-Foissac in what is now Bas-Limousin.
>So, if you wish you can contact me at... madla...@gmail.com. I will help all I can. Good luck with your searches. Nicole Dubois
would indicate clearly the pioneers so that we can tell you it is
wrong...
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
Les Français d'Amérique du Nord - www.francogene.com/genealogie--quebec/
French in North America before 1722 - www.francogene.com/quebec--genealogy/
Sur cédérom à 1785 - On CD-ROM to 1785
ambregui...@gmail.com
It is "said" that he was a "cousin' of governor DE VAUDREUIL. (possibly through his brother D IBERVILLE ?)
Moreover, it is also said that he was linked to the family D' ESTE.
Send anything serious to bjgui...@hotmail.com ! Thank you and regards from France.
Paulo Canedo
wjhonson
P J Evans
> There is a very important gateway to canadians, Catherine Baillon who has several descents from Charlemagne through her father and she is ancestor for example of Angelina Jolie and Celine Dion.
peter...@yahoo.ca
wjhonson
Michael Welch
> Here is a link to people in New France and Acadia of proven, possible and disproven royal descent: http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
Denis Beauregard
wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Just sharing something about the chevalier François Marie DE REGGIO:
>
>It is "said" that he was a "cousin' of governor DE VAUDREUIL. (possibly through his brother D IBERVILLE ?)
Louis Philippe RIGAUD de VAUDREUIL married a Lemoine, so linked
to d'Iberville.
>Moreover, it is also said that he was linked to the family D' ESTE.
[128066] REGGIO (de), François Marie (Charles & .. de CANAPAN
[134645]), né vers 1732 Alba, Piedmont (Italie)
* mariés vers 1751, de Arkansas ? (Arkansas)
FLEURIAU, Héléna (François & Pélagie de MORIÈRES [118606]), née avant
1739 Nouvelle-Orléans (Saint Louis), Orleans (Louisiane)
1) Louis-Charles-Emmanuel, né 1759, marié Nouvelle-Orléans ?
(Louisiane) avant 1793 Judith OLIVIER DE VEZIN
Main source : New Orleans Genesis (16) 257
I don't think François is a cousin of Vaudreuil.
Denis Beauregard
<mwelc...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>On Wednesday, March 1, 2017 at 7:13:04 PM UTC-8, peter...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> Here is a link to people in New France and Acadia of proven, possible and disproven royal descent: http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/qrd30.htm
>
>I like this link but they should up date it. They haven't done anything in over 2 yrs
articles with deep ancestry in Memoires de la Société généalogique
canadienne-française since a few years, but no new royal gateway
since 3 years.
Yves Drolet published an ancestry of the Crisafi brothers but I don't
see a royal line. Some Grimaldi, so with a deeper work, it is possible
there will be some royal connection, but anyway, the Crisafi have no
descendants.
I may add lines with no publication, so you won't notice that by
looking at only the references in that page.
Anyway, do you know any new royal line in New France or Acadia
from a reliable source ?
jlavi...@gmail.com
Bonjour Denis,
Thank you for all of your work. I'm sure you know of Adrien d'Abancourt dit La Caille. If you didn't hear already, some smart person found a document of him from when he was in the army in Saint Waast, northern France that states he was from la paroisse de Saint Paul de Beauvais, and so would probably be a younger son of Jean III d'Abancourt et Ide de Neufville, not the previous suspected parents. Aubert de la Chesnaye des Bois gives the eldest son for Jean but leaves open any younger children. Adrien is the family name down the male line. From there,
Adrien II d'Abancourt -
Raoulette de Caux -
Thomasse de Tournebu -
Roger de Tournebu -
Marie Paynel -
Guillaume Paynel, sire de Milly et Marie d'Harcourt -
etc. etc. - - -
Here are the links.
https://books.google.com/books?id=Mu4UAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=Jean+III+d'Abancourt+Ide+de+Neufville&source=bl&ots=vADjDv8r62&sig=ACfU3U3v0CJ2H1oAhsczGMltJtwJLHhu5Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjktrD3xYrmAhVGvFkKHVpnA9U4ChDoATAAegQICBAB#v=onepage&q=Jean%20III%20d'Abancourt%20Ide%20de%20Neufville&f=false
and also
https://books.google.com/books?id=GnBUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=Marie+Paynel,+dame+de+Moyon&source=bl&ots=sw6W2pq7nB&sig=ACfU3U3Cn7ItB5Y9Mr3GZswaLVO8nFF9NQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIssSv5vbmAhXSm-AKHf1fAMoQ6AEwAnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Marie%20Paynel%2C%20dame%20de%20Moyon&f=false
https://books.google.com/books?id=qL1BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Guillaume+d'Abancourt+raulline+de+caux&source=bl&ots=Ei906YlNAx&sig=ACfU3U23NuMSCMPVBtMB9o3akhPs1xQAIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_1ey75fbmAhWChOAKHRSWBisQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Guillaume%20d'Abancourt%20raulline%20de%20caux&f=false
au revoir,
Jamie Robert Lavigne
jlavi...@gmail.com
Reference code : T//37/17
Terre de Domont : baux, partages de terres, titres de procédure.(1312-1594)
Since I am 101 million in the list to receive a copy over the internet, I will take the gentlemen's word above for the content of it.
Merci beaucoup
jlavi...@gmail.com
- Jacques (Jamie) Robert Lavigne
Denis Beauregard
écrivait dans soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
>Bonjour Denis,
>
>Thank you for all of your work. I'm sure you know of Adrien d'Abancourt dit La Caille. If you didn't hear already, some smart person found a document of him from when he was in the army in Saint Waast, northern France that states he was from la paroisse de Saint Paul de Beauvais, and so would probably be a younger son of Jean
III d'Abancourt et Ide de Neufville, not the previous suspected parents. Aubert de la Chesnaye des Bois gives the eldest son for Jean but leaves open any younger children. Adrien is the family name down the male line. From there,
>
>Adrien II d'Abancourt -
>Raoulette de Caux -
>Thomasse de Tournebu -
>Roger de Tournebu -
>Marie Paynel -
>Guillaume Paynel, sire de Milly et Marie d'Harcourt -
>etc. etc. - - -
constantly verify this kind of the "same name game"...
Also, there are more reliable sources than De la Chesnaye
des Bois.
Our Adrien is not there.
>and also
but you have first to prove the parents of our Adrien
>https://books.google.com/books?id=GnBUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA234&lpg=PA234&dq=Marie+Paynel,+dame+de+Moyon&source=bl&ots=sw6W2pq7nB&sig=ACfU3U3Cn7ItB5Y9Mr3GZswaLVO8nFF9NQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjIssSv5vbmAhXSm-AKHf1fAMoQ6AEwAnoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=Marie%20Paynel%2C%20dame%20de%20Moyon&f=false
Again, our Adrien is not there.
>https://books.google.com/books?id=qL1BAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA115&lpg=PA115&dq=Guillaume+d'Abancourt+raulline+de+caux&source=bl&ots=Ei906YlNAx&sig=ACfU3U23NuMSCMPVBtMB9o3akhPs1xQAIQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj_1ey75fbmAhWChOAKHRSWBisQ6AEwAHoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Guillaume%20d'Abancourt%20raulline%20de%20caux&f=false
A lot of research was made about them. Too many Adrien to help.
Denis
--
Denis Beauregard - généalogiste émérite (FQSG)
French in North America before 1722 - http://www.francogene.com/gfna/gfna/998/
Sur cédérom/DVD/USB à 1790 - On CD-ROM/DVD/USB to 1790
jlavi...@gmail.com
"Jean d'Abancourt IIIeme du nom . . . . Il avoit épouse, par contrat . . . . . Demoiselle Ide de Neufville, dont pour fils ainé :
Francois d'Abancourt, IIeme du nom. . . . "
c'est tout. . .
On sait que les deux sont de la famille "d'Abancourt", et de la ville de Beauvais dans la même époque. C'est probablement écrit dans une archive dans Beauvaisis.
Denis Beauregard
in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>Denis,
>
>Je n'ai pas d'email pour vous mais j'essaierai quand même de vous demander en tous cas. J'écrirai en anglais parce que ton anglais est meilleur que mon français.
>
>I am not a genealogist by profession, but a land surveyor (arpenteur), so I do know registers and civil law, and I do know a lot about history. In the SGCF article with the Longueval Project, in the several notarized transactions they found for a "Charles de Longueval" in Epieds, Picardie between 1607-1616, I noticed the two that
mention "Louise de Joyeuse" as widow "veuve" of "Charles de Longueval", it does not mention with any title, but another act lists a "Charles de Longueval" as present and with no wife mentioned as "seigneur en partie de Sivry et Vuallicourt (Walincourt)". To me this could be another person entirely, obviously if not the same man
then probably a son with the same name, and could easily have been lost to the records by disinheritance and/or debt like the mother's family (de Joyeuse).
Yves is aware of a lot of stuff. He spent a lot of time on this and
other cases, using original records.
>There were only a handful of branches of the Longueval dynasty in Picardie at this time, and several are known to have married members of the Joyeuse dynasty. I keep going back to the original legend, now disproven, with the seigneurs de Haraucourt (Jean-Antoine de Longueval et Anne de Maridor), however a younger brother was
named Charles de Longueval, but was killed in battle in 1595. This Charles de Longueval is not listed with any wife or children in Aubert de la Chesnaye, unlike all the siblings. Any genealogist knows that even people in Haute Noblesse families would be expunged from these old books if the next generation was demoted or
dishonored.
I thing Aubert de la Chesnaye made no original research and only
copied other sources. So it is surely not the best tool to find
more.
As for the Maridor daughter, this Antoinette was too young and anyway
married to another guy. So there is no reason to keep this
possibility.
> As I said, there is no description in the two notary transactions in Epieds for the deceased husband of Louise de Joyeuse, so what if the then living Charles de Longueval at that time listed alone in person in the other transaction is a forgotten son. Both of their daughters have the same names as siblings of the Charles de
Longueval from the Lords of Haraucourt (Antoinette=Jean-Antoine, Anne=Anne), and both families (Longueval de Haraucourt/ Joyeuse de Grandpre)have the same links to the d'Estrees and Bourbon families through their grandfathers and great grandfathers, which could explain such a marriage arrangement. We have no records of the family
of Antoinette de Longueval between 1563-1603, so there is a lot missing here, and the maison de Longueval was one of the leading families in Picardie.
Again, your opinion is based on what is available online.
Yves made a lot of travels to France and was helped there
with local genealogists.
> Roland-Yves Gagne obviously did not want to hear it since understandably it gave them so much trouble trying to find it, but I think the children (Antoinette, Anne, et Charles??), could have ended up cut off somehow like they found with the family of de Joyeuse, which would explain no writings or records for them between
1563-1603. Also there is a lack of records overall because this was the Wars of Religion and Picardie was the worst hit, with Spanish invasions, which ended up killing both Jean-Antoine de Longueval and Charles de Longueval, and I think might be why they could be related but the wife and children ended up relatively ruined. I do
not know where this connection between Antoinette de Longueval and the seigneurs de Haraucourt originally came from, but it seems to have been old, like from Godbout or Tanguay, maybe you know. I have looked deep online, there are no more records there, any would be in the registers somewhere in that part of France, and it is
disturbing
>that Roland Yves Gagne and his team looked hard and didn't find any, although I do not think they checked the "seigneurie de Sivry (Sivry-les-Buzancy) et Vuallicourt (Walincourt-Selvigny)". Any thoughts if you have any would be nice.
The Haraucourt is based on a theory by Denis Amiot but it is
from printed books and not from records. Since that Antoinette
is too young, we should completely ignore this theory. Denis
Amiot had a very thick stack of papers. SGCF had that copy but
no one had the idea to copy the whole stack and Mr Amiot, who
was sick at that time, got it back. I presume he is dead for
years now. No idea where are his papers.
jlavi...@gmail.com
I hope people better at navigating the online archives and web pages than me will look at this, the seigneur de Prouville was also seigneur proprietaire of a fief ferme at Sauvresis
https://books.google.com/books?id=DPRAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA187&lpg=PA187&dq=Charles+de+Longueval+Cessi%C3%A8res+Sauvresis&source=bl&ots=kywun3xs0U&sig=ACfU3U05B-F41JTJXb96GNVpSCysMsKlCQ&hl=en&ppis=_e&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjAqtaAoIrlAhVvc98KHbzNAfsQ6AEwDXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=Charles%20de%20Longueval%20Cessi%C3%A8res%20Sauvresis&f=false
and until more information is found either way, it ties into everything found by the SGCF team, the story of Denis Amiot, and the history from the annals, more than anything else.
Denis Beauregard
in soc.genealogy.medieval:
studies !
jlavi...@gmail.com
Denis Beauregard
in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>I hope people keep looking because the identity of the father Charles is not known, and there are pieces scattered that need to be put together. Any answers would likely be in records (.ca 1550-1610) for Walincourt -Selvigny and/or Sivry-Buzancy. Whether it is in provincial roles that would be Archbishopric (Archevecque) of
Cambrai in Cambrai for Walincourt, and County of Champagne I think for Sivry. I will not be able to get abroad anytime soon but let's all look hard and finish the hard work of the SGCF! Merci
SGCF which is only the publisher here) was made in the French
archives that are not available online. As long as the pandemic will
run, archives will be closed so no search for a while. And once a
case is closed, Yves works on another case.
Paulo Ricardo Canedo
jlavi...@gmail.com
> domingo, 26 de Abril de 2020 às 17:26:25 UTC+1, Denis Beauregard escreveu:
> > in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> What were the connections between the Joyeuses, on one hand, and the Longuevals, d'Estrees and Bourbons, on the other hand?
I believe it was Tanguay/ others who mentioned a town of Estrees associated with the Couvents originally, the article in SGCF thought it was one of the towns named Estrees today in another diocese, but to me it is clearly the town of Coeuvres in diocese of Soissons, made marquisate de Coeuvres, then Duche d’Estrees and was known as Estrees, today called Coeuvres, seat of Jean d’Estrees and his wife Catherine de Bourbon, parents of Francoise d’Estrees wife and mother of de Longuevals de Haraucourt. Coeuvres is also abutting the town of Montgobert, seat of Robert de Joyeuse and his wife Marguerite de Barbancon, dame de Montgobert, grandparents of the Joyeuse of the Couvents. The three families married a number of times (Francois-Annibal d’Estrees + Gabrielle de Longueval, etc. etc.). This is all in online records. The Maison de Longueval is one of the highest dynasties of Picardy so there is a story there with the paternal side of Antoinette de Longueval.
Jamie Lavigne
Denis Beauregard
<paulorica...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>domingo, 26 de Abril de 2020 às 17:26:25 UTC+1, Denis Beauregard escreveu:
>> On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 05:02:46 -0700 (PDT), jlavi...@gmail.com wrote
>> in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>>
>> from printed books and not from records. Since that Antoinette
>> is too young, we should completely ignore this theory. Denis
>> Amiot had a very thick stack of papers. SGCF had that copy but
>> no one had the idea to copy the whole stack and Mr Amiot, who
>> was sick at that time, got it back. I presume he is dead for
>> years now. No idea where are his papers.
>
(hypothesis abandonned for many years).
As for the Longueval-Joyeuse connection, you may begin with
http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec-genealogy/196/196445.php
Ignore the DNA signature.
There is a long path before reaching the nobility and it is not
with the Bourbon.
jlavi...@gmail.com
> On Sat, 13 Jun 2020 17:34:15 -0700 (PDT), Paulo Ricardo Canedo
> <paulorica...@gmail.com> wrote in soc.genealogy.medieval:
>
> >domingo, 26 de Abril de 2020 às 17:26:25 UTC+1, Denis Beauregard escreveu:
> >>
> >> The Haraucourt is based on a theory by Denis Amiot but it is
> >> from printed books and not from records. Since that Antoinette
> >> is too young, we should completely ignore this theory. Denis
> >> Amiot had a very thick stack of papers. SGCF had that copy but
> >> no one had the idea to copy the whole stack and Mr Amiot, who
> >> was sick at that time, got it back. I presume he is dead for
> >> years now. No idea where are his papers.
> >
> >What were the connections between the Joyeuses, on one hand, and the Longuevals, d'Estrees and Bourbons, on the other hand?
>
> No connection with Estrees (misreading for Epieds) and Bourbons
> (hypothesis abandonned for many years).
>
> As for the Longueval-Joyeuse connection, you may begin with
>
> http://www.francogene.com/genealogie-quebec-genealogy/196/196445.php
>
> Ignore the DNA signature.
>
> There is a long path before reaching the nobility and it is not
> with the Bourbon.
>
>
> Denis
>
> --
Darrell E. Larocque
1) They provided Anne Couvent's marriage record revealed on 25 Jul 1663:
"We Jacques Maheut[,] son of Nicollas and Loyse Clichon of the parish of bubertré in the land of the Perche[,] of the first part[,] and Anne Couvent[,] daughter of Guillaume and Antoinette de Longueval of the parish of Espié[,] diocese of Soissons20[,] of the second [part,] have agreed"
Later in Gagne and Kokanosky:
"Espié, today called Épieds, Aisne, is located to the northeast of Château-Thierry and just to the south of Brécy and Coincy."
There is also the baptismal record of Charlotte Couvent in Brécy 11 Oct 1608:
"On Sunday[,] the eleventh day of the aforesaid month and year[,] above[,] a girl was baptized[,] named Charlotte[,] her father Guilliaume Couvent the godfather [sic] the mother Anthoinette de Longuevalle the godfather Julian Delaage the godmother Louise de Joieuse wife of Charles Longueval"
Brécy is 3.6 miles from Épieds. I would invite you to fully read Gagne and Kokanosky's research before making factual claims that are in error. Here is the full English translation:
http://habitant.org/joyeuse/Amiot%20Couvent%20Complete%20Article%20Translated%20and%20Bookmarked..pdf
2) Coeuvres was NOT called Estrées as you claim... you can clearly see from a map in 1737 of Soissons and environs:
https://maps-prints.com/23075/antique-map-of-the-region-of-soissons-by-de-lat-1737.jpg
Coeuvres is just south of the "O" in SOISSONOIS.
Darrell E. Larocque